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Diesels are much more efficient than gasoline engines. Passenger cars, pickup trucks and SUVs powered by diesels get 20 to 40 percent better fuel economy than their gasoline-powered equivalents. The 2005 Volkswagen Golf diesel, for example, is rated by the Environmental Protection Agency at 38 miles per gallon in the city and 46 mpg on the highway - numbers that rival or exceed many gasoline-electric hybrids. And even greater fuel savings may result from diesel-electric hybrids now under development by General Motors and other manufacturers.
Hybrid Diesels
A bold and serious move
Las Vegas, Nevada. The gloves are off; Mercedes-Benz is no longer fooling around. As early as October 15th of this year, the most innovative, clean and technologically advanced diesel powered automobile will make its way to Mercedes-Benz showrooms in 45 states and more importantly, every province in Canada. This date coincides with the arrival of the ultra-clean
(Photo: Mathieu St-Pierre)
low sulphur diesel fuel in North America. The 2007 E-320 Bluetec is powered by a turbocharged 3,0L V6 that develops 208 hp and 400 lb/ft of torque. In the near future, Mercedes-Benz will introduce this same engine into the GL, R and ML Classes.
7-Speed :surprise: :surprise:
I'm impressed with the number of gears, is 7 really necessary?
Here is some food for thought: If 1/3 of all light-duty vehicles sold in the USA were diesel-powered, they would be saving the equivalent of 1.4 million barrels of fuel per day. This amount equates to the number of barrels of crude oil that are imported every day from Saudi Arabia.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/d41e576493233f4e852571e10068d565?Open- Document
"The hybrid-drive system, coupled with the cleanest available diesel engine, is expected to deliver a 93 percent reduction in smog-forming nitrogen oxides and diesel particulate matter compared to typical yard hostlers. In addition, the hybrid technology is expected to reduce or eliminate emissions during idling, which can represent more than 50 percent of the yard hostler duty cycle. The estimated cuts in emissions from idling reductions during the six-month test are about 19 tons of nitrogen oxide and 200 pounds of particulate matter.
Long Beach Container Terminal is also conducting tests on yard hostlers powered by liquefied natural gas, a project which previously received grant funding from the U.S. EPA. CALSTART also is evaluating the feasibility of the LNG hostlers.
In addition to the $300,000 award from the EPA’s West Coast Collaborative, the two ports have agreed to contribute $375,000 each in funding and services toward the project. Kalmar, Long Beach Container Terminal and the hybrid technology supplier will provide an additional $150,000 in services."
Strictly speaking, probably not. However, it probably lets them squeeze out a little bit more fuel economy, a little more acceleration, and makes the shifts even more undetectable
330i(gas): 0-60 5.6 1/4 mile 14.4
330id : 0-60 6.0 1/4 mile 14.5
Howeve, the diesel got 44% better fuel economy--37.8mpg vs 26.3. Roundel calculated 27,000 miles to recoup the $1264 price premium.
The subjective eval was that the diesel was a better at daily driving, but the gasser performed better when driven sportily.
Engine by Caterpillar, so it seems, but TBC.
But, putting that aside for a minute, why do you need incentive to get the bluetec? Either you want a new car or you don't. If you are happy with your current vehicle ... stick with it. pretty simple.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
first the bluetec: apparently DC did not predict correctly whether/when EPA/CARB/whoever would approve the "urea" exhaust cleaner system. it was not certified in time for 2007, so again those cars will not be available in the CARB states. is anyone other than DC really surprised? to contrast, VW selected an EPA-approved heating-element-based cook-the-soot solution for their 2007 2-a-reg V10 TDI, so i think it will be available in 50 states.
next the relative price of diesel & gas: the price of diesel does not exactly track the price of gas for a bunch of reasons, one being seasonal demands and refineries being switched to produce either gasoline or diesel. another being flexible demand curve for gas but inflexible demand curve for diesel.
i don't think any USA region has yet reached the point where diesel costs 30% more than gasoline - but some are getting close! portland oregon for example.
if diesel does end up costing 30% or 40% more than either 87 or 91 octane gasoline, i'll seriously reconsider my diesel-dogma. even in that case of no-cost-savings, with diesel i think i would still achieving a primary goal of minimizing the # of bbls of oil imported for the miles driven.
Truckers and others who depend on diesel fuel haven't been as fortunate as their gasoline-burning brethren. Average U.S. diesel prices are hovering above $3 a gallon thanks to strong demand and uncertainty over supplies as refiners are required to produce lower-sulfur diesel to meet new environmental guidelines.
Diesel prices do a welcomed free-fall
The average on-highway price of diesel fuel performed a welcomed free-fall for the week ended Sept. 11, reaching $2.857 a gallon, the lowest point since the week ended last April 17 when the average price was $2.765, according to the Energy Information Administration of the Department of Energy.
The Sept. 11 average price was 11 cents a gallon lower than the previous week’s average of $2.976 and was the biggest weekly decline since Nov. 7, when the price fell 17.8 cents to $2.698.
Fast Diesel is now an accurate description.
A J.D. Power and Associates study released in April predicts U.S. demand for diesel-powered vehicles will nearly triple during the next 10 years, from 3.2% in 2005 to more than 10% by 2015. Some supplier projections are even more aggressive, predicting 10% market share by 2010 and 15% by 2015.
That means diesels will far outpace HEVs, despite their high visibility. J.D. Power predicts HEVs only will have a 4.9% share of the U.S. market by 2013, up from 1.3% last year. Anthony Pratt, senior manager-global powertrain forecasting at J.D. Power, says his company does not have a formal HEV forecast for 2015, but says current scenarios do not suggest HEV share will rise much above 5%.
Good article.
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/
Average USA unleaded regular: $2.61
Average USA diesel prices: $2.96
If your intent is to mislead people that diesel prices are higher than they actually are, then you can rely on info. from a site that specializes in gasoline.
If you want to obtain accurate info. from the industry that relies on diesel fuel, then obtain it from the trucking industry.
So yes, it depends on the source.
Here is price of diesel and regular unleaded at the local Flying J where I purchase gasoline and diesel.
$2.57 diesel
$2.56 gasoline
Elsewhere in the state, gasoline is as low as $2.15/g :surprise:
Average diesel price in Colorado is $3.239
Colorado diesel prices
Average U.S. diesel prices are hovering above $3 a gallon thanks to strong demand and uncertainty over supplies as refiners are required to produce lower-sulfur diesel to meet new environmental guidelines.
link title
Lowest USA regular unleaded price I can find today 9-12-2006:
Springdale OH $2.039
According to your article from "the Trucker":
The lowest average diesel price was $2.757 in the lower Atlantic states.
That's my point. Diesel is still higher.
So what?
prices are fluctuating so much right now that you can't pin it down.
What is the point to this line of conversation?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
New formula, high demand might affect whole economy
USA TODAY AND THE ENQUIRER
Although most drivers are paying much less to fill their gasoline tanks than they did just a few weeks ago, those who use diesel fuel have barely noticed a change.
While the average gasoline price in the Midwest dropped almost 40 cents from July 31 to Labor Day, prices for diesel - used to fuel trucks and other vehicles - fell a little less than 5 cents.
Over the weekend, regular unleaded gas prices in the $2.20s were sighted in the region, while diesel was still at or above $3.
From:
Diesel not falling like Gas
Sharing diesel news and diesel news related discussion is the point of this topic.
larsb - There is really no point. If you have no point you do not have to post or read the posts. :P
You don't need a point to post here, you just need a news story.
You're right. I stand corrected. I honestly thought I was in one of the other 3 or 4 threads where diesel and hybrid bashing go on incessantly.
this is merely "diesel in the news" and i suppose those fit the bill exactly.
i suppose I just expect someone to have a REASON for posting a news story. An agenda, if you will.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Under the hood, you'll find a monstrous 6L V12 that'll develop 500 horsepower and 738 lbs-ft of torque, more than enough umph to get you to the supermarket and back. Heck, you can probably beat out some of those weekend warriors at the track, 'cause the Q7 only takes 5.5 seconds to reach 60mph from a standstill. The top speed isn't too shabby either at 155mph.
Not something I'd ever buy, it is interesting nonetheless.
but did you see the 19.7 mpg with all that ummphh? That's what modern diesels are all about. We in the US are way behind the curve.
(oops, that 19.7 mpg comes out of the Straigtline blog http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/1464), not yours...
John
John
For much of the next decade, gasoline-powered hybrids, diesel engines and cars that can run on blends of gasoline and ethanol will jockey for market position, executives said.
quote- "With hybrid technology focused more on small cars, we believe diesel offers an advantage on larger vehicles," said Dan Bonawitz, vice president of corporate planning and logistics at Honda Motor Co. Ltd.. "There's a diminished return on hybrids when you start getting larger frontal areas and more weight and mass." -end
If the article holds predictive value, that means the passenger vehicle fleet growth of hybrid will be .0042553% per year or less than one/half of one percent per year.
Despite what some have said about diesel being more per gal than unleaded gasoline, the 30-37% advantage of diesel PER MILE DRIVEN is NOW very hard to hide. Given say a VW Jetta TDI of 49 mpg vs VW Jetta gasser of 31 mpg; it is easy to do the math as to which is cheaper per mile driven to run. I think there is a fairly large audience on this board that hopes folks DO NOT do the math.
The math is correct and why shouldn't anyone be happy to use less 30-40% fuel - as long as the emissions are also low.
For the moment barring the CARB states new diesels and new hybrids both achieve the same effect in fuel savings. The advantage to the hybrids currently is that they pass all the emissions requirements of all states. I'd guess soon that the diesel will also meet these requirement, then there will be two very efficient drive systems for the entire country.
Now if a hybrid 'multiplier' is added to a diesel and was able to achieve a 30-40% mechanical improvement on top of diesel's inherent 30-40% avantage, we are talking huge fuel savings.
Gagrice has already made the point: that VW Jetta TDI emissions can be as low as a (ubiquitous?) TOYOTA CAMRY. Indeed the population of TOYOTA CAMRY's and its competitor's (Ford's, DCB, GM, Hyndai, Honda etc etc)are FAR INXS of the TDI's but draw absolutely no IRE.
As to why why anyone would not be happy to use 30-40% less fuel? I do not know!? I know I am, but I might be in a minority camp.
...""Now if a hybrid 'multiplier' is added to a diesel and was able to achieve a 30-40% mechanical improvement on top of diesel's inherent 30-40% advantage, we are talking huge fuel savings. "...
Now I would agree with your quote. However given the numbers of diesel and perhaps the conundrum hybrids do/will find themselves, population and growth wise, I almost doubt it would trigger a huge rush to buy. My take: overall passenger vehicle fleet savings of 30-40% ? EASILY 10-20 years away!!!(and I am an optimist) NON problem, NON issue!!
I was just in Oahu, Honolulu- Wakiki to be exact. (I would have chosen the boon docks, if it were totally my druthers)However, as bad as Los Angeles is at rush hour and in general; Honolulu is easily (by the local's admission and political advocation and from the peanut gallery, my observations) 2x worse. Yet I did not see many hybrids at all, Prius, Civic!!!! Yet if any place fits the operating characteristics of the hybrid, ( the rolling parking lot or a parking lot that rolls) it is Honolulu. My take: COST!!??
So to put some perspective, 45 mins in LA can be up to 50 miles vs Honolulu more like 8-10 miles.
This is pretty funny.
Would you believe it? Emotional Renault and laid back Toyota are having a corporate punch-up.
By Mike Rutherford 25th April 2006
The French firm formally declared hostilities when it issued a hugely provocative statement alleging that a petrol-electric hybrid power unit such as that in the Toyota Prius is "much more costly and no greener" than a diesel engine in a Renault Mégane. What's more, it claims its car costs up to £5,050 less than the Japanese offering.
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quote-
For the U.S., the growing diesel fuel shortage won’t be as easy to fix as the gasoline shortage. The U.S. won’t be able to import diesel fuel from Europe as it does with gasoline because Europe just doesn’t have sufficient capacity to meet its own demand. This is good news for U.S. refiners in the long term. Because of lack of capacity and little competition from imports, U.S. refiners should earn high margins for processing the fuel.
-end
As most folks know, so called "oygenated" fuel (usually sold during the winter time) is a % mix of ethanol. Again as most folks know, usually results in (up to 20%) MORE fuel consumption. Diesel on the other hand can be mixed with so called "bio" diesel almost seamlessly with petro diesel. As Larsb has almost endlessly pointed out, diesel sells for MORE at the pump (usually than) unleaded regular. So despite the almost overwhelming profitablity of diesel over unleaded regular, it is STILL cheaper per mile driven to run diesel over unleaded regular.
I have a very very hard time believing the 20% figure, except for pathological cases. Even if the 10% extra ethanol held zero energy, the energy content of the fuel mixture woud be reduced by 10% as compared to pure petrol. I seem to recall the figure of ehanol having 70% of the energy of petrol, so this would mean we should lose about 3% fuel economy.
Maybe on some malfunctioning vehicles, the computer will get really confused by what the oxygen sensor is telling it, and screw up the timing.
Also, the octane of e10 is higher, so on cars that can move the timing forward, we might make up a reasonable portion of that gap.
I know you said "up to 20%" but i think people might get the wrong impression from that that they might expect close to 20% lost fuel economy. My highest MPG run ever (36.7mpg in my bmw) was on e10.
So for example, I idle the exact same car as you 15 mins vs yours, where you start it up and go. YOU in all likelihood would get better mpg in the winter than I.
I also use 20% due to actual(gasser) experiences AND the fact is on a diesel, I have experienced AT least a 20% range difference of 44-62 mpg. I am sure you would agree there can be some wide variations. There are also some Prius owners who claim 100 plus mpg!!?? From my perspective, I personally would probably get more kicks watching paint dry.
I suppose i misunderstood, and though you were ascribing a 20% fuel economy drop to oxygenation. I think we (probably?) agree that this is unrealistic. Any drop should be small enough to be lost in the statistical noise.
I think driving patterns have far more of an effect than most people realize. Many people in my town accelerate like mad from stop light to stop light. I tend to coast a lot when aggressive driving won't save me time. So i do get some level of kicks from maximizing mileage.
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1. Most gasoline is reformulated to reduce pollution. More oxygenators are added which reduces the amount of energy available in each gallon of fuel, reducing FE.
2. In colder weather, gassers tend to run richer mixtures thus impacting negatively on FE.
3. Warming up your car in the cold weather obviously reduces FE.
TDI 42/49 EPA
gassers 24/31 EPA
e83 18/23.25 PROJECTED
While ethanol meets the definition of alternative fuels, my take is the diesel offers the most advantages.
Yes, i know that--i was just responding to the idea that e10 by itself was going to reduce fuel economy by 20%.
I like the TDI but i'd still have a hard time getting it in the jetta - the 2.0T has twice the horsepower and instant power. According to VW, the jetta gets 36/41 mpg, not the 42/49 you quote:
http://www.vw.com/vwcom/content/objects/pdf/vw_jetta_specs.pdf
So if you are referring to a 2006 VW model I am sure the figures for that model year are proportionate.
Diesel here is average $2.99, I can find it for $2.69 . 87oct is $2.20. But any other vehicle I would be driving would take premium any ways. Im saving about $75 a month in fuel,But the convince of driving from Dallas to Nashville on one tank is :shades:
The last I read VW is offering only FFV in Brazil. They will run on 100% ethanol. Not sure what the hit is burning E100. I think they will be going back to petroleum with the new discoveries of oil in Brazil. Just as we see the oil companies trying to run the ethanol companies out of business in the midwest.
On the lower mileage for the new Jetta TDI. They have added some weight and a few more devices to the TDI for emissions. I am sure that is dropping mileage. If you check the mileage rating of the Jetta TDI over the last 4 years, you will see that the 2004 model took a big hit in mileage. The 2002-2003 was the best rated mileage cars. I have a friend in Boise that just sold a 2002 Jetta TDI for $18k. It had 76k miles on it. He has two others that he picked up when prices were flat a couple years ago. Try getting that kind of resale from a 2002 hybrid with 76k miles.
PS
A 2002 Prius with 75k miles is going on the auction for $9600. I'll let you know the final price in 52 minutes.