Diesels in the News

once_for_all

nope, I haven't posted in the hybrids forum.

Sure, diesels have lots of torque. But as you downsize them (which you would do to up the mpg and take advantage of the electric motor) you gotta come up with additional power somewhere.

I am not advocating diesel hybrids, I am just saying that they are technically possible, feasible, and efficient.

BTW I am a farmer and essentially camp out in a diesel tractor. Nothing beats diesel for farming.

John

goodcrd

Diesel Hybrids are already here in the US. They are mainly being used by the Public Mass transit systems. The one that comes to mind first is the New Flyer Hybrid bus. It comes in two sizes 40' and 60'. The 60' hybrid bus is articulated. They have been found to get 17 to 20 percent better fuel mileage then the straight diesel buses of the same size. When your using 30+ million dollars a year to fuel your fleet, 20% is big. The technology is here! It is just the emission regulations which need to be met. Diesel engines have advanced greatly in twenty years. The Old mechanical engines were killers. Today with these new electronically controlled engines its light comparing a Two stroke gasoline engine of twenty years ago to a four stroke gasoline engine used in a Honda today. But I'm disappoint with the same nonsense over and over in this forum. I want to read about Diesel's in the News not Hybrid gas vs. Diesel. Both diesel and gasoline engines have their advantages and drawbacks. They are both needed. The use of both help to better use our fuel supply derived from oil. Look at Europe and see who they are selling their excess gas. The US. Europe using diesel powered vehicles are keeping gasoline prices down over here.

goodcrd

I don't see any advantage between a diesel or Gas engine when it come to the overall life of a car. The engine between overhauls yes. Not the Car. With a Car looking at the big picture, it is the frame and increasing costs of maintenance and repairs compared to the overall value of the vehicle. I'm not going to sink 2500 a year into a car only worth 1500. Not a good investment. It is when the costs become prohibitive that one gets rid of a car. Or your vehicle needs change.

gagrice

If you put a 250k mile diesel engine into a car that falls apart in 5 years that is a poor investment. My opinion is the engines are getting better while the rest of the vehicle is getting cheaper built. Too much crappy plastic that deteriorates rapidly in the sun. They seem to have the rust issues taken care of. I believe the automobile quality peaked in the early 1990s. I want another solid car like our 1990 LS400 with a diesel engine. Will that ever come around?

qbrozen

wow. you obviously had very specific cars in the early 90s. lol. my family and friends had several chevys during that time ... its these vehicles that turned everyone I know away from GM.

gagrice

I should have said Japanese cars peaked in the 90s. Though I had no problems with a 90, 93 & 98 Chevy trucks. I can tell you my 2005 GMC PU is not equal to the 1998 Suburban or close to the 1993 Chevy PU truck. Just not as well built. I have not owned a GM car since the 1950s so I cannot comment. I know in the 1980s it was hard to beat Mercedes diesels. I would have bought one if I could have afforded it at the time.

qbrozen

our collective experiences were mostly with S10 blazers. There were 5 in my circle of family and friends. All were garbage.

My father's '87 K5 Blazer, on the other hand, wasn't too bad. Although the engine ate itself at 95k miles, he had a 100k mile warranty, so it didn't bother him. Other than that, the rest of the truck was still going strong when he sold it with 180k miles, and the last he heard from the guy who bought it, it was up around 350k.

I guess, to keep it on topic, I should mention that my father is a diesel mechanic for 25 years and is now a shop supervisor for a trucking company. I worked for him through high school and college. So my exposure to the virtues of diesels is what makes me want one of my own. Yes, the majority was with big rigs (not surprising since that's the majority on the road), but when you work in those circles, you find many folks have diesel cars and pickups for home use, as well, and they would trust nobody else to work on them but my father. We've seen quite a few Benz diesels with 300k miles.

kdhspyder

I think he is saying the diesel Accord will outsell the TCH when it arrives.

This will be a great battle. The top two selling midsized autos with two different technologies both accomplishing the same thing about the same cost ( supposedly ).

a. Can Toyota really get the premium down to $1000 or less
b. Can Honda educate the American public within 10 yrs that diesel is an acceptable alternative. ( It has taken Toyota 5 yrs on it's hybrids and many are still skeptical - although most of the population has a positive view. )
c. This battle is 4-5 yrs away. By that time Toyota will have the next Generation in production and on the road. A realworld 40 mpg by the diesel Accord may not be enough. It might have to be 50 mpg. But I'm certain Honda knows that.

kdhspyder

So another way of looking at it, do you think Toyota would even consider taking a risk in gasser hybrids without the FANTASTICALLY profitable TOYOTA TRUCK AND SUV markets? Government tax credits, etc., etc.?

Actually you have this backward. In relation to the other major US players Toyota has a very very small truck SUV presence. It's profits come mainly from the Camry and Corolla, which are HUGELY profitable, and better control of it's 'extra' costs like incentives and inventory overhang.

The decision to develop a hybrid in parallel with diesel technology was done back in the mid-90's when there was only the Tacoma & 4Runner, there were no tax incentives envisioned ( which btw also apply to diesels ) and was purely pragmatic on it's and Honda's part since both realized that it was only hybrid gassers which could be sold in their two main markets ( US/Japan ) for the foreseeable future; i.e. NOW.

This to make more fuel efficient vehicles both decided to sell hybrids from 2000 to 2008 to see if there was a market for them and how far the technology could go. Diesel is well known to both and if hybrid technology can be piggybacked onto a diesel with an additonal 30% efficiency - why not?

gagrice

That will be an interesting matchup. I am still looking for a midsize to 1/2 ton diesel PU. Been waiting since 1999 for some company to come to the plate. The small PU is all but history in the USA. I may just bite the bullet ($5k premium)and get a 3/4 ton crew cab diesel from Dodge or GMC. I would consider Ford. But they have TOO many problems with the newer PS diesel. Who knows I may even like the new Tundra diesel.

kdhspyder

I have had the opportunity to speak with several dozen Prius owners and all are disappointed with the poor FE.

Your reported anecdotal evidence flies in the face of what is being reported thoughout the market and on sites like GreenHybrid. Did you by chance find ALL the dissatisfied drivers.

Challenge I have made to several skeptics. I will take any GenII Prius ( mechanially sound of course ) and get 48-52 mpg over any extended period of time, a day, a week or a month. It's the easiest thing in the world to do.

'...significant unresolvable electrical issues.'

Data please.

ruking1

You misread my post or in the worst case are twisting what I REALLY said. I did not make any reference to Toyota selling more volume on the truck and suv as the other major USA players. Let me put it this way, if indeed it was unclear, Toyota makes more profit percentage (% per truck & suv) on their truck's and suv's than the other major players make on their trucks and suvs. One spin off is they do not have to make/sell as many vehicles to make the same profits. When you put it together with the much lower costs.... we could go on and on. So far as the Corolla's and Camry sales, I did not say the Corolla and Camry were NOT popular., and germane to the discussion: profitable!!!?

So let me reiterate and make a prediction.

I said in other threads and posts that at some point the choices should be as in Europe: you select your vehicle segment and in that segment there is a diesel option. Then you chose. Again to restate the obvious the diesel passenger vehicle fleet in Europe is fully 47-50% and GROWING.

The prediction: (no brainer)is Toyota will come out with a diesel truck/suv before a hybrid and/or diesel hybrid. Why is this a no brainer? Toyota has been selling turbo diesel Landcruiser, (HiLux, etc)., just about forever (a long time)with no attempt at hybrid. It is just not available on the common USA market. Indeed a less than radical solution but a real break through would be a (Lexus) V8 small block turbo diesel with 350-550 torque, and the holy grail: 32-40 mpg. If one is used to getting 15-18 mpg, 32-40 mpg is now a HUGE improvement. I am sure you can sense the implied consequences here. If it is unclear let me know. Don't spin what I said to get a rise.

marcb

kdhspyder, this would give you an idea to the answer of your question b. Looks like the education slope is not going to be too steep:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/061020-2.htm

marcb
ex Toyota Hybrid owner.

larsb

SO GLAD to see ULSD fuel now in the USA !!!

Has diesel grown on USA?

The change promises to significantly cut air pollution caused by diesel emissions. Regulators say high concentrations of sulfur in the old diesel fuel poison the engine systems that clean exhaust of harmful pollutants. The biggest concern is particulate matter, one of the byproducts of engine combustion, said Margo Oge, director of the EPA's office of transportation and air quality. The particles are a fraction of the size of a human hair. Public health advocates have described the particles as tiny spaceships that dive into the respiratory system when people inhale, damaging the lining of the lungs.

Particles from diesel emissions are classified by the government as a potential carcinogen and are linked to premature deaths, heart attacks and respiratory illness.

Mark MacLeod, director of special projects for the advocacy group Environmental Defense, said the new EPA rules are expected to prevent about 8,000 premature deaths each year, 1.5 million lost work days and 360,000 asthma attacks.

gagrice

Just test drove the first new GMC PU truck to hit the lot. It still had the plastic on the seats. Not really prepped. They are pretty decent. I asked about the diesel version. He told me that was a big disappointment. All the smog crap has cut the power by a quite a bit. If you want a good diesel truck better get one before the current ones are all gone. The new ones will require smog checks. That is another waste of money. By the time the government gets through with diesel engines they will have accomplished what they set out to do. Destroy any advantage diesel has mileage wise. Very depressing for me.

I stopped into the Toyota dealer next door and asked about the diesel Tundra. He told me at least a year and a half. Not sure it makes any difference if they load them down to where they have no mileage gain.

ruking1

Couple of thoughts immediately came to mind. In the 1970's, when the lead was taken out of leaded regular and premium, during the change over, there was indeed legitimate concerns for damage to "pre unleaded" equipment and use ability. The other was mid 1970's to mid 1980's cars (designed to run unleaded regular) went through a HUGE adjustment and readjustment and further readjustment periods, not to mention loss and higher costs, loss of hp and performance. This also included the premature death of so called higher performance hp/torque cars. neither the 1970's nor a good part of the 80's were a good time to buy a car. On the plus side, obviously there was a huge change in emissions!!

Having a 2003 TDI, my take is the 500/140 ppm fuel to 15 ppm fuel has been utterly seamless and unnoticable in performance and power terms. Cetane additives are now totally unnecessary. I am more than glad the 15 ppm is commonly available at so called "commodity" pricing. So from your description of what the dealer said, (if it is true across the
(bigger) diesel lines, I think the so called "older" ones (pre 2007) or the ones' designed and built for ULSD, dodged a bunch of HUGE bullets. My confusion comes from reading the Cummins Diesel web site, that all is ready for the 2007 and going forward from that, standards. Indeed they have unveiled an even bigger and more powerful V8 diesel!!!

dhanley

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/new_bmw_30liter.html

ruking1

Man that rates a YAHOO from me !! The mpg for the performance is definitely in holy grail territory (31-35 mpg) !! Twin turbo!!?? AW AW AW!

gagrice

I think that CARB has added new restrictions on even PU truck diesels. If they have to be smogged that is new. I think I read they will have to meet new higher standards in 2007. Makes the 2006 a better buy. I like the looks of the new Chevy PU better than the last generation. Not sure it is a big improvement. Kind of has the boxy look that Ford introduced a couple years ago. I wonder if it is worth even buying a new diesel truck. If you cannot get appreciably better mileage it is a big hit. Unless you need that torque for heavy towing. Then I would get an older one that you know will fill the bill.

dhanley

Yeah, i'm happy too. Supposedly this will come here in the x3 first, which would be perfect, as that's, imo, a pretty good vehicle except for the awful fuel economy (17/25).

ruking1

I will have to ask my friend, (who regulates at CARB) when I see him, what the deal is.

gagrice

I can see myself in an X3 with a diesel engine. I think I like the GL 320 CDI size better. I would think you could get mid 30s with the BMW X3.

kdhspyder

I quoted your words from your original post.

There is no doubt that their few trucks and SUV's were profitable, everyone is from every manufacturer. I just took exception to your belief that the truck/SUV business was so hugely profitable as to be able to allow them to go into hybrids. Heck Honda didn't even produce a truck or SUV until early this decade and they went into hybrids back in the mid 90's also.

The two, trucks/SUV and hybrids, have nothing to do with one another.

Europe and the US market are very different. To reverse your logic.....

Hybrids in the US are so growing so phenomenally fast that they will ignite a buying frenzy in Europe also. Also a false conclusion.

The markets are different and demand different vehicles.

kdhspyder

Interesting article. The preparation is beginning for 2008. As I mentioned previously here, I think it would do all diesels good if it's Honda that takes the lead in promoting the new 'clean diesel'.

They have a great rep, a bank full of good will and the engineering know-how to bring it to market in Middle America driveways.

ruking1

"The two, trucks/SUV and hybrids, have nothing to do with one another."

Actually they do. Which is another reason why you are precisely incorrect. This relationship is at the heart of the discussion for so called "higher average mpg". Insofar as the consumer is concerned, it is seamless. Unless of course you happen to dig into why something you might want is somehow not on the menu.

My take has been;you don't need to legislate higher average mpg vehicles, just build them. However this is not what an oem has to deal with. Do I know the precise formula? NO!! Do they? ABSOLUTELY. You really dont need to be a rocket scientist to understand:" WE DONT LIKE YOUR KIND".

Since we are on a diesel thread, what makes you think a 350 hp/602 #ft of torque Cummins diesel engine passes in all 50 states and of course the 5 states that ban since 2004, diesel CARS AND DIESEL CARS CAN NOT!!???? Is it your feeling that those banned diesel cars which are 50% of the European fleet are NOT capable of passing the same emissions tests that those Cummins Diesels do? So then how does each of those sister models; such as BMW 330I gassers miraculously do? Does BMW (and every other european oem) has a case of the dumbs with their diesels i.e., BMW 330D?

What I am saying is there has been a lot more going on that what is reported from the party line. Since you and I visit threads that have discussed issues like this before, I know you know what I am saying. Again I don't want you to necessarily AGREE with what I am saying. But please don't act like you have not heard it before or dont understand. (on other threads). You are a very intelligent consumer (person)

blufz1

When do you think Honda will introduce it's clean burn diesel in the US?

ruking1

USA Today says by 2009.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-10-03-diesels-usat_x.htm?csp=34

winter2

Unresolvable electrical issues.

There is that LCD message panel in the dashboard. Most of the complaints were about that. Several people had the panels replaced multiple times, in a few cases the battery charging circuit for the motors failed repeatedly. One or two had drive controller failures.

ruking1

This might be too basic for folks on this august board, but...

How Diesel Engines Work

by Marshall Brain

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel.htm

ruking1

The Axis of Diesel
Mercedes, GM and even Honda, are betting on a new breed of green diesels. The goal? To leave hybrids in the dust.
By Lawrence Ulrich, Fortune
October 10 2006: 2:29 PM EDT

http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/04/autos/fortune_diesels.fortune/index.htm?postvers- ion=2006100409

gagrice

Out on the highway the Diesel has 32% MPG advantage over comparable Hybrid. In side by side comparison the GS450h got 23/26 MPG and the E320 CDI 28/38 MPG. If you need to accelerate faster than the E320 CDI 0-60 in 6.6 seconds you don't need an economy car. And the Mercedes is several thousand dollars less money. Plus you give up half of your trunk space to batteries with the hybrid.

Mercedes is furthest along. In the E 320 Blutec, a trap stores and purges smog-forming nitrogen oxides. A second filter captures particulate matter - diesel's black calling card, long linked to cancer, asthma, and other health risks. Then ammonia compounds are used to convert nitrogen oxides to water and nitrogen. What will consumers notice? It goes fast, it delivers a knockout 38 highway miles per gallon, there's no smell, and it costs just $1,000 more than the gas model, vs. Lexus's $8,000 premium for its GS hybrid sedan.

kdhspyder

Actually they do. Which is another reason why you are precisely incorrect. This relationship is at the heart of the discussion for so called "higher average mpg". Insofar as the consumer is concerned, it is seamless. Unless of course you happen to dig into why something you might want is somehow not on the menu

My take has been;you don't need to legislate higher average mpg vehicles, just build them. However this is not what an oem has to deal with. Do I know the precise formula? NO!! Do they? ABSOLUTELY. You really dont need to be a rocket scientist to understand:" WE DONT LIKE YOUR KIND".

This is gibberish. There is nothing that makes sense in these two paragraphs.

The trucks/SUV's have nothing to do with one another.

As I mentioned before the European market and the US market are very very different. Success in one does not in anyway predict success in the other. And it works in both directions.

ruking1

I have done a fair amount of time in the gasser only versions of the models in your post. While it is hard to say enough good things about the ultra luxurious Lexus, for the life of me, it is hard to imagine the real benefit of a hybrid system in the GS 450, other than a green statement mentioned in passing on the golf course, for 26 mpg is not much more than what a gasser only gets. Now a diesel GS450 would make a wonderful road car even a more wonderful road car!!!!! But folks that can afford these, normally do not take these kinds of cars ON THE ROAD !!!

ruking1

Perhaps it is best to agree to disagree on those issues. The only thing that is gibberish is the steadfast refusal to address the issues. An easy one is: why do the environmentalists always push for higher mpg fuel standards, amd the oem's always fight it tooth and nail, actually lobbyist by lobbyist, state by state, Congressman and Senator by Congressman and Senator, party by party, party against party, Nation against nation etc.

..."As I mentioned before the European market and the US market are very very different. Success in one does not in anyway predict success in the other. And it works in both directions." ...

So why would you think that I think they are same? Further incorrect intrepretations of what I have said in the past? They are not the same and I have said so in many other posts and in many other ways.

kdhspyder

Except that you keep pointing to the deep penetration of diesel vehicles in the European market as supposed 'proof' of its inherent advantage.

No there is no inherent advantage ( economy-wise or price-wise ) in a diesel vs a hybrid. They both accomplish the same goal at about the same cost.

Europeans prefer diesels - now.
Americans prefer hybrids - now.

That's all that can be said. All subject to change with new technologies and new cost levels.

gagrice

I think I agree with your take on this. Our 1990 LS400 has more room and gets 27 MPG on the highway. Not sure why I would consider the GS450h. If the LS600h gets worse mileage than the GS450h sounds like Toyota is going backwards with the hybrids. Maybe that is the image that Toyota wants Hybrids for performance not economy. Makes no sense to me. But, who am I?

I am not sure if I agree with your statement about those that would buy the GS450. Maybe they do just use the car for commuting and fly cross country. I kind of prefer that way of travel. Fly and rent a car. Although I believe if we were to buy the just out GL320 CDI I may decide to drive rather than fly. I guess I thought I would have more time after I retired. So far that is not the case.

ruking1

..."Except that you keep pointing to the deep penetration of diesel vehicles in the European market as supposed 'proof' of its inherent advantage.

No there is no inherent advantage ( economy-wise or price-wise ) in a diesel vs a hybrid. They both accomplish the same goal at about the same cost.

Europeans prefer diesels - now.
Americans prefer hybrids - now.
"...

Just goes to show a lot (volume and %) of folks DO wish to ignore the % advantage of diesel!!??

Lets see "NOW" Europeans have a diesel passenger vehicle fleet of 50% and growing.

"NOW" Americans have a hybrid passenger vehicle fleet of significantly less than 1% of the passenger vehicle fleet with significant impediments to growing.

NOW" Americans have a diesel passenger vehicle fleet of 2.3-2.9% and a regulatory bias against them growing.

To quote, The Axis of Diesel
Mercedes, GM and even Honda, are betting on a new breed of green diesels. The goal? To leave hybrids in the dust.
By Lawrence Ulrich, Fortune
October 10 2006: 2:29 PM EDT

..."How big is the market? J.D. Power estimates that diesel sales will triple to 9% of the U.S. market by 2013, compared with a projected hybrid share of 5%."...

http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/04/autos/fortune_diesels.fortune/index.htm?postvers- - ion=2006100409

gagrice

No there is no inherent advantage ( economy-wise or price-wise ) in a diesel vs a hybrid.

That statement totally ignores the recent comparison of the Lexus GS450h and the MB E320 CDI. Mercedes wins on both premium and mileage.

ruking1

..."I am not sure if I agree with your statement about those that would buy the GS450. Maybe they do just use the car for commuting and fly cross country. I kind of prefer that way of travel. Fly and rent a car"...

Well lets put it this way, I am sure you are not doing what I have said JUST to please me or comply with what I said!!!??? YOU are one example of fitting precisely what I said. Actually my friends also, so for me it is an observation. For me also it makes all the sense in the world to fly and rent a car at the end destination, but I do LIKE to drive. So in that sense, I am the oddball.

ruking1

I would also offer up the Honda Civic gasser (36-42 mpg), VW Jetta TDI at 48-52, VW JETTA gasser is less than 31 mpg and since I do not have a Honda Civic hybrid, ask someone like Larsh to put in his commute mpg. In all fairness, I have heard 41-48 mpg (for a similar commute with similar conditions by another person) for the Prius.

ruking1

But given today's air travel realities, in the west anyway you can pretty much BE (time wise) up to 650 miles.

The nexus of course if you are on the road the diesel is uniquely adapted to USA road travel. This might seem counterintuitive to gasser users. ( but dont forget truckers use diesel?)

We actually had a group travel to Tigard Oregon from Oakland, San Jose, San Francisco, CA International's (Portland Oregon was the end destination airport obviously). The folks that flew called us, as they were boarding the plane and just so happens as we were starting on the road, to tell us they were leaving and where the hell where we! (competitive basketball moms) We of course had stopped for fuel, stopped to have lunch at Mount Shasta, stopped for potty breaks and went through Portlands rush hour. So to make a long story short, we pulled up into the hotel parking lot AT THE EXACT SAME TIME as those that took the planes!!!!!!!!!

The next year we did the same exact thing but with one other car in caravan and we arrived a TAD earlier. (but for the story line) AT THE EXACT SAME TIME!!!

kdhspyder

NOW" Americans have a diesel passenger vehicle fleet of 2.3-2.9% and a regulatory bias against them growing.

This is false and you know it.

Noone is regulating against heavy trucks which make up the more than 90% of this 'passenger fleet' you quote. Be accurate please.

Total diesel light vehicle registrations in the entire US market, the 45 states that allow new diesels, is 45,000 units. This is 1,000 vehicles per state which is ridiculously low. With a 100 year head start it means that diesels are only able to be sold to a few enthusiasts...very few... at present.

This is all subject to change with new technology and costs.

Don't gloss over the fact that Mr/Mrs Mid-America NOW do not want to buy a diesel unless it's a HD truck. This specifically includes all 45 states where new diesel sales are allow.

ruking1

..."Noone is regulating against heavy trucks which make up the more than 90% of this 'passenger fleet' you quote. Be accurate please."...

Actually it was Gagrice and I (probably among others) who brought up this very point. We of course questioned why folks were making such a big deal of passenger diesels (up to and including light trucks) with emissions abatement when practical effect was almost total unmitigation for a whole litnany of diesel and non diesel categories.

I think you misread the market. But you would not be the first expert, who has done that citing GM, FORD, DCB, etc etc so you are in august company.

..."Don't gloss over the fact that Mr/Mrs Mid-America NOW do not want to buy a diesel unless it's a HD truck. This specifically includes all 45 states where new diesel sales are allow."...

I am not sure why you totally ignore my very simple concept of say for a Honda Civic, we have a diesel option. I use Honda Civic for it has been used as test mule for gasser, hydrogen, natural gas, gasser/hybrid, diesel (but not in the states) and who knows what else. I truly think Honda has got the "across the platform" concept right when it comes to engine options. When speaking of the Prius, one also has to allow for the fact there is no other model of Prius, but small gas 1.5 L engine/hybrid. So it is damned near impossible to buy a diesel car when there are only a few diesel cars available such as Jeep Liberty, VW Golf, Jetta, Beetle. But the key is the diesels are almost all SOLD, which is not what you can say about the gasser models !!!! Further, the used models go for far above % wise what a like gasser would sell. We could go on and on.

..."This is all subject to change with new technology and costs."...

The change would be LET THEM DIESELS IN !!!

So that I am un ambiguous, my take would be given the same inventories of gasser hybrid vs diesel the diesel would do better in sales. Evidently my take also agrees with JD Powers projection. (article posted earlier) I think Honda would sell EVERY LAST SINGLE DIESEL CIVIC if indeed it was allowed in. I mean given the choice (all things being equal which you and i would probably agree are not) would you rather get a car that gets 31 mpg vs 49 mpg? (VW Jetta gasser vs TDI) I do not know what a diesel Civic gets for fuel mileage.

kdhspyder

When Honda comes to market with its diesel options I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the only offerings are an Accord, an Odyssey and an MDX - at least in the first several years.

Diesel Civic? Why? It already has a hybrid Civic that accomplishes the same purpose at the same cost. Why have two. Smaller diesel? Again why? They have already announced the building of a smaller-than-Civic hybrid for the near future. It's purely pragmatic marketing in that they already have small fuel efficient vehicles as hybrids. Why confuse the market by offering a diesel that only does the same as the HCH?

Now Toyota on the other hand, has no small hybrid. It may very well bring a diesel Corolla or Yaris to the US at some time in the future to compete with the hybrid Civic and new small hybrid from Honda.

Ditto Nissan, Peugot, Fiat...

ruking1

I would not be surprised either, but to be fair, very old news. Honda had long ago committed to and already announced (among a slew of announcements) the (new) cTDI as it is their concept to market flagship product, (in their own universe) to rival their (gasser) VTEC product. As you probably know the same project engineer who brought the VTEC to market was tapped as project engineer to bring the cTDI (his hated) diesel to market. Again the cTDI is already being sold on a "Accord" platform. To boot, if I remember correctly, the diesel already in the Civic (non USA markets) is made by someone else (Italian manufacturer?). So it remains to be seen if this diesel is continued in the Civic, the new cTDI is shoe horned in or as you suggest dropped altogether. I flat do not know, nor have I heard.

In the European market, it does remain to be seen if Honda can meet their yearly goal of cTDI sales at fully 35% )

highender

We actually had a group travel to Tigard Oregon from Oakland, San Jose, San Francisco, CA International's (Portland Oregon was the end destination airport obviously). The folks that flew called us, as they were boarding the plane and just so happens as we were starting on the road, to tell us they were leaving and where the hell where we! (competitive basketball moms) We of course had stopped for fuel, stopped to have lunch at Mount Shasta, stopped for potty breaks and went through Portlands rush hour. So to make a long story short, we pulled up into the hotel parking lot AT THE EXACT SAME TIME as those that took the planes!!!!!!!!!

same thing happened to us. But we were the ones who took the plane, and friends drove from Oakland to LA Disneyland with is about 400 miles and a 6 hour drive. We started same time.....but by the time we boarded the plane, got off, got luggage, got rental car....and got to motel....the friends got there before us.....we took a tad longer than 6 hrs by plane.

dhanley

" An easy one is: why do the environmentalists always push for higher mpg fuel standards, amd the oem's always fight it tooth and nail, "

I thought it was pretty well documented that this is because many of these low-economy ones tend to be higher-profit vehicles--large vehicles, ofen body-on frame with large-lower tech engines. In many cases, the basic design is very old and tooling and engineering costs were long-ago amortized.

gagrice

Taking a plane or car.

We refuse to fly into Las Vegas. It is such a horrible airport and SouthWorst is the only good connection from San Diego. It is so much easier to drive than fly.

Our objection to driving cross country is the time to get anywhere East of the Rockies from here. If we had a nice diesel touring vehicle we might try again. We thought our Passat TDI would be good for cross country. That was too small for our tastes. Now we have the MB Cruiser that is too big for what we want. Hard to find a decent sized vehicle that gets decent mileage. The only thing on the market right today that I would consider is the GL 320CDI or maybe the E320 CDI. The GL is closer to the size I like. It would also satisfy our need for an occasional jaunt into the desert.

gagrice

With a 100 year head start it means that diesels are only able to be sold to a few enthusiasts

Are you getting your script from larsb? He comes up with lame baseless arguments like that all the time. Hybrids have as long of a history as diesels. Electric drives even longer. That is irrelevant to the discussion of what would people buy.

I think the fact that the Jetta TDI is as hard to get as the Prius, even without the government making the down payment and giving access to the HOV lanes says it all. I also think we can use the EU as an example of what buyers want. It took time and the modern diesel engine to break the hold of the gas engine in the EU. Our best window on which will be accepted is to look at a place that has lots of choices. The EU has lots of choices, and guess what both Toyota and Honda are struggling for sales. Both have had to add diesels in small cars to penetrate the VW dominance.

Hybrid chronology:
1898
The German Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, at age 23, built his first car, the Lohner Electric Chaise. It was the world's first front-wheel-drive. Porsche's second car was a hybrid, using an internal combustion engine to spin a generator that provided power to electric motors located in the wheel hubs. On battery alone, the car could travel nearly forty miles.

http://www.hybridcars.com/history/history-of-hybrid-vehicles.html

gagrice

It will be nice to be a country with choices again. The beautiful GL3230 CDI is available to most of the country right now.

Come 2008, however, and we expect the floodgates will open. The EPA and CARB will have approved a NOx treatment method, which is the current sticking point for getting diesel cars to meet 50-state emissions rules. Right now carmakers are so secretive about how they are going to meet emissions standards, they won't tell us what cars they'll be selling then, lest their competitors figure out how much their diesel cars will cost, and undercut them.

We expect the gutsier V-8 GL420 CDI will then be part of California dealers' lots because big-engine diesels are hip with rich folks in Europe right now, and Mercedes-Benz figures our rich folks will follow right along. Until then, the GL320 CDI 4Matic has a range of more than 600 miles because diesel fuel packs about 25 percent more energy in a gallon than gasoline, and is a smidgen cheaper to refine than gasoline, too. Using less fuel allows diesel owners bragging rights on producing fewer greenhouse gases, too. We're convinced by 2008 our rich folks will be blowing all those little hybrid Toyota Priuses into the ditch trying to get to Mercedes-Benz dealers.

GL320 CDI