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I concurr 100%.
I would never fly from SD to LV. I've done it before, and it's a relaxing and enjoyable drive. Totally unlike air travel.
I used to drive from albuquerque to oceanside,ca a few times a year. That's 9-10 hours (cough). A flight would be 6 all told (packing, waiting in line, boarding, getting bags, renting a car, etc, etc ), but the drive, you see scenery, can visit fun tourist traps, see the meteor crater, etc, etc.
Here's the difference (and I know this being on my second Cummins-powered Dodge Ram)...
The HD pickups that use diesel engines are above the 8500-pound GVWR line that determines a different emissions class. Vehicles above this line are not EPA tested for emissions and fuel economy as vehicles under 8500 GVWR. The heavier trucks instead are classed as having to meet medium-duty truck emissions standards, which are notably different.
The CARB states have even tighter rules that cause federally-legal diesels of all weight classes to either be restricted or banned. Until Jan 1 2004, Cummins-powered Dodge Rams were heavily detuned compared to the engines available in the other 45 states (235 hp/460 lb-ft compared to 305/555).
kcram - Pickups Host
In addition, just to make a comment to kcram's post, I do not know much about trucks, but I am certain that one of the reasons for diesels being banned in the US is that the diesel fuel in the US is much, much dirtier than in Europe. Therefore the emissions are much higher. My understanding is that the US committed to change the (quality of) diesel fuel (to better), which will then allow the diesel vehicles to be less polluting, that is, close to European diesel cars. I do not know how the MB E Diesel and VW diesel did it with the dirty US' diesel up to this point...
Now the issue is getting diesel engines to run even cleaner than the cars coming from the EU. That will add more to the cost. I am not sure it will be worth the effort.
The average school bus is nine years old and emits nearly twice as much pollution per mile as a tractor-trailer truck (or “big rig”).
Only Alaska, Connecticut, Maine, Nevada, and New York scored above the national average in all three categories we evaluated
school bus pollution
..."Many states have made progress in reducing pollution, but we are still a long way from ensuring that our children are riding in “clean” school buses"...
Two. 5 points, by K-12 standards ALL the grades mentioned ARE PASSING. Second, the above quote is what I cal gov speak for BACK BURNER!! The REAL answer is "SHORT" (as a pun to "a long way from"? ) enough. What does the DMV do when YOUR car doesn't meet standards?? It gets REDLINED !!!!! They give you a short period of time to correct it. Then if you don't, it gets REDLINED !!!!! What do you think would happened when the fleet, (more than 505,000) gets redlined???????
(NOT going to happen. All those states still meet K-12 grading standards.)
Wait, Garr-Bear: I thought you have many times said "hybrids are too new for reliability to be proven."
So which is it: hybrids have a long history or are unproven technology?
As far as Diesels in the News:
Rush on Diesels
No wonder it is a traffic jam in the school parking lots every day with mothers transporting their children to and from school. Who would want their children standing in line to get on a bus that is spewing exhaust in their faces. Plus have to pay for the privilege of riding on the bus.
There are so many areas that CARB could address the problems of air quality. It seems they have their heads in the sand. How many business jets were registered or allowed to fly in and out of our airports since the ban on diesel cars went into affect? Keeping in mind that a small business jet puts out 500 times the NOx per mile as a diesel car. How many semi trucks filled with nasty diesel from AZ have driven into and back out of CA with no restrictions? Now we find out that the average school bus pollutes twice as much as a semi truck. I feel CARB has singled out the diesel cars unfairly. I was hoping that common sense would be returning to Sacramento with Arnie. I guess that was just wishful thinking.
Hybrids are a novelty for the wealthy. Diesel is a practical solution for the masses.
A lot of folks even on this (enthusiasts') board have a hard time understanding that:
1 diesel is a viable "go to" fuel for AT LEAST the short term future (30 years)
2. The USA are the stewards of coal reserves conservatively estimate at 200-500 years. Quite literally the USA is the mother lode of coal on the earth. As a compariosn, the middle east is a 2 person hot tub next to a lake tahoe in comparison of crude oil to coal and its end products. If USA coal resources would be "FREED", so called gasification of coal to #2 diesel will yield products cleaner burning than even unleaded regular from crude oil.
3. for some unfathomable reason folks feel that while technology can mitigate unleaded regular products, it can NOT mitigate the more carbon rich products of a barrel of crude. They point to almost totally unmitigated sources are reasons to NOT use diesel??? Of course this is THE oxymoronic oxymoron.
4. the complete and almost utter disconnect seems to be the lack of understanding or denial that a natural consequence of unleaded regular product refining IS #2 DIESEL!!!
What is in a Barrel of Crude?
http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/crude_products.aspx
In closing, I think alternatives will only be embraced after so called graphic "train wrecks".
Look at post #986. Read the article concerning the Daimler diesels. The above quote is taken from that article.
Now let us say that refiners did not have to create all of the boutique gasolines for each region of the country for several different seasons of the year, but instead created one formulation used everywhere all year. It would be interesting to see how many of the PZEV and SULEV cars would disappear from those lists. Imagine running a hybrid gasser on third world quality gasoline. Would be pretty ugly.
Considering U.S. diesel fuel is "third world" quality, it is pretty amazing that that diesels are becoming as clean as they are.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/diesel/dieselprices2006.html
quote-
The 2.2CTDi diesel-powered Honda Civic, sold now in Britain, delivers 43 miles per gallon in town and 55.4 mpg in combined city-highway driving. The hybrid Civic manages only 50 mpg in combined driving, while a gas Civic averages 33 mpg. "We're leading the way to cleaner diesel engines," says Honda Chief Executive Takeo Fukui.
-end quote
My Liberty CRD is doing just fine, thank you. It was designed to run on ULSD in the first place and I wish ULSD had been in place when I bought it.
So far there are a few subtle things that I have noticed. First, the idle, which is pretty to smooth to begin with is even smoother and the noise, what little there is is a little less too. Performance wise, it is a touch perkier. I still have the original EGR valve and I attribute it's survival to the judicious use of high quality detergents and cetane improvers.
Convince Mom that the vehicle is cleaner, more stylish, safe for the family and cost effective, then Honda ( for midsized vehicles ) and Toyota ( small vehicles? ) might be able to develop significant diesel sales in the US market. VW has had it's chance and the results are very..... modest let's say.
It will take a huge re-education process though by whichever oem can take the lead.
The majority of vehicles I see mothers driving their kids in are big Chevrolet Suburban types, big Nissan SUV's,large Toyota SUV's and the like. I really do not think that most moms could care less about how clean a vehicle is but how they perceive that bigger is safer.
I feel that hybrid will eventually be a bust. Look at the Ford Escape/Mercury Mariner Hybrid twins. Ford licensed the Toyota system and yet they had a great deal of trouble selling them to the point where they were heavily rebated in the recent past. Even Toyota's hybrid SUV types are not selling all that well.
Diesel will be a winner here. Once people drive a modern diesel powered vehicle, attitudes will change. Let's face it, when DCX decided to bring over the Jeep Liberty CRD, they expected to sell only a few thousand. The little SUV's did not have the benefit of advertising whatsoever and DCX sold every last one of them and almost double what they thought they would sell.
VW and others will be here. Do not count them out yet.
..."It's Honda's 140bhp 2.2-litre unit, as used to such wonderful effect in the larger Accord. The paperwork records a top speed of a notch under 130mph and a 62mph sprint of just over eight seconds, but bear in mind that this engine develops nearly twice the torque at half the revs (ie, 251lb ft at 2,000rpm) of the 140bhp 1.8-litre petrol alternative and you begin to get an idea of its superiority. With this much torque on hand, performance feels effortless and plentiful, with bags of punch for overtaking middle-aged dawdlers. On the motorway, it's the pick of the bunch, too. Take it up to the unofficial speed limit (if you must) and the only notable noise is wind and tyre-generated: the engine is buttery, with hints of velvet."... ...
"Showroom pricing could be keener, though: the entry-level Civic 2.2-CTDi S will set you back £15,035."... (sic) as a comparison the 1.8 gasser is BPS 15,450.
It is also interesting to note the average buyer age is 58 years old !!! So clearly they need to appeal to the younger buyers, but you can also infer that in UK, Europe £15,035 or $28,200 US is a LOT of money.
So my take is if the Honda 2.2-CTDI is sold here and at USA prices, and if the premium between gasser and diesel is 590-600 dollars, we really get the best of all possible combinations, cheaper fuel (than UK), better mpg (than gasser) cheaper price range for Honda. (in the US)
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/honda/accord/100782925/prices.html?action=1
So with a 590/600 MSRP Premium (projected, obviously). It is easy to calculate the BE.
In theory then they should really hate the Trident Iceni R. It has a 6.6-litre twin-turbo V8 engine producing 450bhp. It will do 230mph and get to 60mph in less than four seconds. But, and this is the kicker, it runs on locally produced biodiesel, and at a constant 56mph the Iceni will return a Smart car-beating 70mpg.
Interesting (per the article)that in a race, a (gasser) Ferrari will get 8/9 mpg vs the DIESEL'S 48 mpg! A diesel gets 5.33 x to 6 x BETTER at RACE PACE!!!??? .
If R and D on diesel cars were BANNED due to the sentiment/fact they might not have been meeting the exact same standards as gasser cars, do you think these break through's would have happened?
Funny how R and D on gasser/hybrid is NOT banned, and has so called "economic viability", yet no news in this area!????? You would probably agree this would be a PR BONANZA.
But in reality, talking about everyday cars, people don't need a SuperCar for commuting, which is where the hybrid cars shine.
You dont understand the gasser hybrid technology well enough? Yet it leads you to vilify diesel, because you think gasser hybrid technology is better than "slice bread?"(specifically diesel). Or was it you didn't understand the diesel technology enough? Or BOTH?
Actually in other sites and over many posts, this is what some folks have been saying all along. It would be good to stop vilifying one of the "go to answers" to these issues. (and you know what they are)
Actually, super cars ARE used for commuting. Why? I don't really know each motivation, nor would I habitually commute in one, BUT suffice to say, they can? So why not 70 mpg vs 11-16 mpg using the (gasser) Ferrari 360 as an example?
But more to the (NOW) point of diesel vs hybrid, if the diesel gets 48 mpg and the hybrid gets 48 mpg, yet the diesel is 7,000 cheaper, which is more cost effective?
Given the pics Gagrice posted, especially when it would seem a 1/2 passenger (DIESEL) car that gets 70/80 PLUS mpg WORKS (in a plethora of ways) BETTER?? ...... (spring board to further discussion?)
YOU KNOW VERY WELL I was not talking about not knowing about the gasser technology !! You knew I was talking about the diesel SuperCar technology !! I know PLENTY about how gas hybrids work - I have owned two of them.
And this is not a "diesel vs hybrid" topic, which Edmunds refuses to allow us to have. Your "hypothetical" question about the value is that there is NO comparable diesel and hybrid car where the price difference is $7,000, so we may never know that answer.
"How close would you surmise gasser hybrids are to doing what the diesel super car has done, as you have linked?" ...
your answer
"I really don't understand the technology well enough to answer that question. Seems pretty darn amazing."...
I am glad you made that clear!!
Onward and upward for diesels going to 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet!!
Again to be clear, 90% of the current diesel vehicles are heavy duty work trucks. The smaller trucks that gagrice has been on a search for the last 10 yrs are likely to be the next great 'advancement' for diesels. This is also where it will benefit the national fuel economy the most as well.
Light passenger diesel vehicles still aren't well accepted here - yet. We'll see what the next 5 years brings.
As I have said on other threads, this could have an interesting effect of lessening demand for additional cars, not even to address the subject of less fuel demand or even just a more efficient use of resources. (harder to quantify and qualify I am sure.) But I know in my case, it is very true. For example, I would not even look for another car if my Toyota Landcruiser's got 25-35 mpg (and beyond). This is despite the fact, one gets 36-43 and the other gets 44-62 mpg. All one needs to do is the math to make those multiple options decisions for themselves.
..."Light passenger diesel vehicles still aren't well accepted here - yet. We'll see what the next 5 years brings."
To address your quote, ONE only needs to offer the diesel option to really find out. I have mentioned this in this and other threads. To cite "only" three cases (oem's) where this might be true: i.e., MB E 320 D, Jeep Liberty TDI and VW's: Beetle, Golf, Jetta TDI, the demand WAY exceeds the supply. Indeed, one can see the residual Tsunami WAVE action in "off the chart" demand for USED models. As one familiar with dealerships, I am surprised YOU didn't make mention, YOU are the auto professional, I am not.
quote-
I know this sounds sacrilegious for a Michigan State grad living in Ann Arbor, but I'd rather go blue than green. What I mean to say is that the new Bluetec turbo-diesel engine in this familiar Mercedes sedan seems like such an elegant solution to balancing fuel-economy and environmental concerns. It's more appealing to me -- and probably to a lot more Americans -- than owning and driving a gas-electric hybrid, with all its extra cost and complexity and unresolved issues like battery replacement cost.
-end
EPA 2007 MB E320
..."The EPA ratings on this luxury car are phenomenal: 26 miles per gallon in city driving and 37 on the highway. There are plenty of gasoline-powered subcompacts that don't get anywhere near that kind of highway mileage. The regular gasoline E350 is rated 19 and 26, just for comparison purposes. That 3-liter turbo-diesel in the E320 is also amazing, in terms of torque. It produces nearly 400 pounds-feet, which is more than most gasoline V-8s. Talk about eating your cake."...
Before I bought the jetta diesel, I looked at the Honda Insight....with 109,000 miles, at a dealership lot in Concord, CA. Salesman said the car was great...but the miles were high...and may need service Majorly in the future. Yikes...!!
Don't forget that the diesel engine lasts for at least 300,000 miles...to almost 500,000 miles ?! Plus no batteries to change ?? Plus the ability to use no dino fuel alternatives like biodiesel ?
The cost of a diesel seems so much less...and makes more sense......
THat is a great alternative if I wanted a larger car....plus the pics of the nice futuristic cars that gagrice posted....
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/users/artists/willie.shtm
In theory then they should really hate the Trident Iceni R. It has a 6.6-litre twin-turbo V8 engine producing 450bhp. It will do 230mph and get to 60mph in less than four seconds. But, and this is the kicker, it runs on locally produced biodiesel, and at a constant 56mph the Iceni will return a Smart car-beating 70mpg. "...
The above quoted application really shows how UTTERLY over the top is the potential of diesel. It clearly belies the almost total lack of progress on the gasser side. Specifically why is there no like gasser application that gets 48 mpg and 70 mpg at a constant 56 mph, given all the R & D and focus on gasser and gasser/hybrid products? To try to compare them side by side, such as: why no 450 hp 800# ft of torque gasser would be almost ludicrous. Indeed the numbers speak for themselves.
Not true. There has been tons of gasser engine progress.
The fact is that diesel has 140,000 btu per gallon, gasoline only has 124,000. And, the flashpoints are different, so the diesel can run at much higher compression, which squeezes more power out of the combustion.
Gasoline simply won't ever be able to get there.
John
..."Gasoline simply won't ever be able to get there." ...
Glad you agree! You have actually encouraged me to wax in fantasy land for app 20 seconds. As good as the 2007 Corvette Z06 (427 cu in) 500 hp and 480 #ft of torque is, (EPA highway I believe is 25 mpg) I was thinking of the Z06 with that 6.6 liter DIESEL, twin turbo, with 450 hp and 800 # ft of torque !!!!! WOW !! (48 mpg race day and 70 mpg at 56 mph )OK I am back to reality.
So the range of a mythical Z06 diesel would be 48/70 mpg 864/1,260 miles.
I just finished my tank of biodiesel with 20% diesel #2. I ran it for 518 miles in stop and go traffic, going up the lake chabot hills,( I live in a valley, so surrounded by mileage depleting hills), and still got 43 mpg ( used only 11.999 gallons). 518 divided by 11.999 is about 43 mpg+.
Rukes..you were right about diesel fuel economy. And the power simply beats the hybrids hands down. My wife did NOT let me buy a Prius, simply because she said it was too weak a car in terms of car armouring and weak in terms of power to merge on freeway. I am glad I took your advice and went diesel. I love it.
YEs...hmmm.....a clean diesel ZO6 corvette...that would be great ! lots of torque, lots of power, lots of gas savings.....Yes...I am dreaming too....
I just recently did a whole stop and go routine, literally on the streets of the city of San Francisco. If folks don't know traffic is about as chaotic as NYC, BUT has SF has hills like there is no tomorrow. I was in a 2.5 hour 50 car funeral procession. Getting to the location in SF was a full stop and go affair( app 1 hour). And leaving San Francisco was another stop and go affair (1 hour). So while we did give the deceased a respectful and "proper" send off, driving was literally a PITA. To boot, it was on Sunday. (prime time) To make a long story short, the word MESS doesn't even come close. We were dressed in suits and ties and ran the AC the whole time with 4 folks in the car. So needless to say, I was not expecting mpg to be anywhere near the 48-52 in commute. Filled up today and got 46 mpg!!!!
I will try to get above 45 mpg in the next few tanks...
sorry to hear about the funeral and long ways to get there and back.....
Today as I pulled into the station, the low fuel lamp and buzzer went off. Pretty bizarre timing. Filled up and got 50 mpg. (611 miles/12.092 gal)