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U.S. Rep. John Dingell said today that he will use some of his restored power to promote wider use of diesel engines in vehicles.
Please do not make this into a Democrat/Republican issue. I'm happy to see anyone from any party promote fuel conserving, torque delivering diesels.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
PROBLEM: none of the 2006 and likely none of the 2007 models are clean enough to rate the tax benefit.
You will have to wait for the high-mileage 2008 clean diesels, but they WILL get the tax credits just like the hybrids are getting now as soon as they are available in all 50 states with the EPA stamp of cleanliness.
More here:
When and How the clean diesels will earn tax credits
10.11.2006 / 16:17 Mercedes runs Paris-Beijing diesel exercise
ALMATY. November 10, 2006. KAZINFORM. In what may be the most ambitious promotion of diesel engines ever, a ragged caravan of Mercedes-Benz E-Class diesel cars arrived in this Central Asian metropolis this week, Frank Aukoter writes for the Washington Times. Among more than 60 diesels, including support trucks and other vehicles, were two 2007 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec diesels driven by two teams of American reporters.
Mercedes-Benz conceived the trip as a sort of replica of the famed 1907 Beijing to Paris race, the first intercontinental competition of fledgling motor cars, which was won by an Italian team driving a 40-horsepower Itala. The winner, Prince Scipione Borghese, completed the trip in 62 days. Other competitors arrived in Paris three weeks later.
From this page:
Borat Like his E320 CDI
It looks like the Touareg V10 diesel should qualify currently. It is available in 50 states. It has a GVWR over 6000 lbs which would give it the maximum tax credit of $3400. It must meet the tier 2 bin 8 emissions for over 6k lb vehicles. I am leaning more toward the GL320 CDI. It is larger inside though not as heavy as the Touareg. The Touareg is built like a tank. For having a GVWR of 6788 lbs and towing capacity of 7700 lbs, it gets great mileage. The GL320 CDI has a little over 6400 lbs GVWR. It should get close to 30 MPG on the highway. Plus it has a great reputation for going off-road if needed.
PS
The EPA lists the 2007 Touareg V10 TDI as 50 state approved.
Pretty interesting how the price of gasoline and DIESEL go down right before the election. Pretty interesting how the prices of gasoline and DIESEL go UP the DAY and after ELECTION DAY !!!
Very good point; the wife noticed that while we were gone over the week of elections, gas had gone up $0.07 a gallon at home. Guilty?, Maybe not, but timing is everything.
It won't be much longer.
RYSSDAL: Is it as clean as regular gas?
NEIL: Yes, as clean as a regular gas-powered vehicle and, in some cases and in some measures, much cleaner.
The timing of the call was the result of Isuzu's availability and Watanabe's growing awareness of Toyota's shortfall in diesel expertise.
In April, GM had sold its final 7.9 percent of Isuzu to raise about $300 million, after having held partial ownership of Isuzu since 1971.
"We think we need to strengthen our diesel capabilities," Watanabe says. "We anticipate the growth of diesel engines going forward."
Several events led him to that conclusion.
Despite Toyota's efforts to promote hybrids, Europe remained unconvinced. European buyers prefer diesels, which offer improved fuel economy at lower cost than hybrids.
Diesel's share there has been climbing for years. In the first eight months of 2006, diesel engines powered more than half of all passenger vehicles sold in Europe.
Toyota's diesel offerings are adequate in Europe. But the automaker is not in the forefront of clean diesel technology.
At this spring's Geneva auto show, several European carmakers started talking seriously about diesel hybrids.
A few weeks later, Toyota launched its hybrid-powered Lexus GS 450h in Japan. Masatami Takimoto, executive vice president for powertrain r&d, was primed to brag about the hybrid powertrain's extra performance.
Instead, Japanese reporters began grilling him about Toyota's plans for a diesel hybrid. Takimoto responded like a deer in headlights. Hybrids use one or more electric motors and an internal combustion engine to power the wheels.
Flanked by Honda
In May, rival Honda Motor Co. flanked Toyota on diesels. Honda promised to sell a diesel-engine car clean enough to meet gasoline-engine emissions levels in North America and Japan within three years. Watanabe was left mumbling that Toyota is working on clean diesel engines, too, but isn't ready to say when the engines will come to market.
The engine made fifty-one HP and seventy-two FT-LBs. It was not quick but yielded an honest 51 to 53 MPG on the highway. Commuting back and forth to work yielded about thirty-eight MPG.
The rest of the car was actually pretty solid and held up quite well.
GM used Isuzu to build the Duramax for them because of the fiasco with their in house products. GM once owned Detroit Diesel and stupidly never called on them to help them build a diesel engine.
GM (and probably FORD) needs to work on the behavioral tendencies to shoot themselves in the feet.
The Ford diesel engines were International Harvester diesels that had a reasonable reputation. Ford got their paws on it and messed it up. They did not have any good diesel engineers and did not consult IH. Their more recent diesels have gotten better, but I do not know if they are straight in-house designs or licensed from some other manufacturer.
The GM 6.2L and 6.5L diesels were built with help from Detroit Diesel but the damage had been done with the 5.7L giesel so even though the latter two were reasonable good engines, GM had nailed the diesel coffin shut, and the rest is history.
The people at Dodge did it right and used Cummins products that had been around for years. Dodge built the truck around the engine.
RYSSDAL: Is it as clean as regular gas?
NEIL: Yes, as clean as a regular gas-powered vehicle and, in some cases and in some measures, much cleaner.
I have wondered about this before, maybe someone out there can provide an answer: Is there any presently-regulated pollutant (CO, HC or any other) that is produced at a significantly lower level by a diesel than by a gasser?
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
The price of diesel generally does go up around this time of year because home heating oil competes directly with diesel fuel production.
Thank you. Now do you think there is any chance of getting the dolts at CARB (and the dolts in the other 4 states that are following their lead) to realize that diesels are not higher polluting, but instead trade a slightly higher NOx level for considerably lower levels of other pollutants? Not to mention the smaller amount of greenhouse gasses. Then they might let in any diesel that passes the federal limit on NOx. I know that I'm dreaming by trying to use logic on these people, but they have to pull their heads out sometime.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Once the cars prove they can get the "EPA stamp of cleanliness" then all is well.
That's been the only issue - satisfying necessarily tough clean air regulations.
PM and NOx are now a non-issue for diesels. Toyota is starting to sweat about diesel power. If they are buying into Isuzu to build diesels, then they must realize that gasser hybrids are in trouble. In America, most driving is long distance, not a strong point for the gasser hybrid or any hybrid.
There are some people I have met in this and other forums that feel nothing is clean enough and that cows and pine forests should have catalytic converters.
In CA ( THE CARB state) in fact a (new with 7500 miles and even older) diesel can be registered with NO smog certificate. I am led to believe that gassers bought in other states and registered in CA (as in 50 state legal) require smog certificates. So I guess by DMV operational behavior, a diesel is indeed considered cleaner than a gasser.!!??
..."There are some people I have met in this and other forums that feel nothing is clean enough and that cows and pine forests should have catalytic converters."...
I can just hear the environ lobby groups now, since fat people emit more C02, they need catalytic converters!!??
IMO it's more a question of keeping abreast of what's occuring in the market. Being blindsided is a mortal sin in business.
Hybrids are excellent cruising at slow speeds in heavy traffic. They also get 45-51 mpg all day long on the highway at any speed from 60-75 mph. That's pretty strong.
Absolutely!
The diesel gets the same mpg 45-51 at any speed from 65-100 mph!
Also I think it needs to be said that Toyota has been marketing, manufacturing, and selling diesel products for a very, very long time: from diesel Corolla's to Toyota Landcruiser's. Just google and check the results.
Doing >75 mph just isn't smart in 95%+ of the driving situations. For the few times and short interval that I might want to go 100 mph the FE is of no concern.
Even though they are all over the world with diesels the linkup with Isuzu is just smart to make certain Honda doesn't steal into the lead somehow with some innovative technology that will leave them 5 yrs in the dust.
Well I think the real question; which is the bet hedge, the hybrid stuff or the diesel stuff!!? My money is on the hybrid stuff being the bet hedge. Hybrid stuff stands little chance to lead the charge into the European market, where 50% of sales are European diesels. Toyota and Honda (among other Japanese makes) do NOT sell well. Until hybrids can sell at the same price as diesels or as gassers, diesels make consumer cost sense. Hybrids- almost none at all.
We have the killer V8 diesel applications in the USA. However it is not well known.
Might be true where you are. However, I would stick to the EXTREME right hand lane when I chose to go 75 mpg (or less) around here. !!!
The 80 year old gentleman that I sold my 2005 Passat TDI to, emails me on a regular basis. They took an extended trip from AZ to NY. He told me he set the cruise on 80 MPH all the way cross country. That is a long ways. He still managed to get 40 MPG on most tanks out on the highway. Will the only competition that Toyota has the TCH manage that? I think that Passat wagon loaded down for vacation probably outweighs the TCH. The GVWR is right at 4600 Lbs.
Why is it 50 cents more per gallon for some time now, does not make sense to me, but that is assuming that my statements are correct... :confuse: :confuse:
They are still two years or more from having a High Fuel Efficiency midsized auto on the market. Then they have another 2-5 years of tough education of the American public. That is assuming that the vehicle makes it through all the test it must. It is atleast 7-10 years behind Toyota in attracting this type of midsized auto buyer. Honda went the 'wrong' way with the HAH and now has to scramble to gain traction with its diesels.
When they finally do come to market then the real struggle will begin. But as I noted elsewhere several times I'd expect Honda to keep its small hybrids and go diesel with its midsized vehicles while Toyota does the reverse.
The european market has no influence here at all. continuing to compare the two markets is a waste of air. The type of driving and the buyers and the demands of the drivers are entirely different than here.
The reference to world markets was meant to show that diesels are not in isolation, just in isolation in the USA market (less than 2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet). Specifically the Honda "Accord" type platform will most likely be coming to the USA with the cTDI. Also for as "different as you say the markets are it is amazing how the European oems have found the success they have on our markets and roads.
The Pres says hybrid so way too many like Ca and NY don't like diesels of any kind. The oil companies think they would lose money if diesels caught on like Europe. The automobile companies don't know what to do. It's going to be a hard task to get good diesel vehicles in the US.
Dirty politics or too much money under the table.
As to hybrids, especially gasser versions, there are some maddening limitations. Have you seen an E85 version yet? Toyota is hesitant to build one because E85 will eat their aluminum engines alive (it is quite corrosive). Next, how do they recapture the near 25% loss in FE when using E85 and still keep them clean? How will Toyota or any manufacturer deal with the increase in VOC when E85 is used?
The oil companies are pigs. Diesel costs more because less of it is made and it competes with home heating oil. I feel that when we get that one swift kick in the butt from our good friends in the middle east, diesels will come pouring in. The auto companies are in bed with oil.
I'll have to disagree. I don't see any european maker selling large volumes. MB, VW, BMW, Volvo, Saab do sell great vehicles into niches but that's not the US market.
Land rover? Renault? Fiat?
Honda will have to be the standard bearer of the diesel team in 2-3 years. It has the good will and the technology and the volume potential through it's outlets to make diesel stick. The europeans will tag along on Honda's probable success.
Actually I think the detroiters have a great shot at developing new 'plumes' of goodwill if they go diesel in a big way. However, if they're slow off the mark and let Honda, VW, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai hit the starting line at full speed with a full range of products it will be another lost opportunity.
I have good acquaintances who have Prius cars and they generally do not get much over 43 MPG on the road or in most situations for that matter.
I have also spoken with several Highlander Hybrid and Escape Hybrid owners and their open road FE is generally in the low 20's at speeds of 65 MPH. At that speed, I get a touch over 30 MPG with my Jeep Liberty CRD.
If Toyota puts a good diesel car on the road, it could be a serious threat to their hybrids and possibly kill them altogether. Honda is investing in diesel more than it is in hybrids. Why?
1 - Taxes. Diesel is the primary fuel of heavy trucks, which are blamed for the wear on highways, thus diesel fuel tax is higher at the federal and state levels than gasoline - in some states, quite higher.
2 - Home heating oil. After September, refineries usually change the balance of production from diesel fuel to home heating oil for winter (same basic fuel, diesel had roadworthy additives). So in order to meet demand for HHO, diesel availability is reduced and the price goes up.
3 - Winter mix. In cold climate states, #2 diesel must be blended to prevent gelling, usually with kerosene or a percentage of #1 diesel. This also starts around October in most of the northern states.
kcram - Pickups Host
I am not making the case for, nor did I even mention Europeam OEMS being the so called "volume" leaders. As you probably know being in the car business that VW is like the GM of Europe. However in the USA they are not as numerous as some Japanese makes. I do not even think it is any ones' goal to be the "volume with much less profit leader." But I think even you would agree that Porsche, BMW, etc. are VERY profitable (% wise) car companies. Could they be even MORE profitable? Sure!?
I have also spoken with several Highlander Hybrid and Escape Hybrid owners and their open road FE is generally in the low 20's at speeds of 65 MPH. At that speed, I get a touch over 30 MPG with my Jeep Liberty CRD.
Comparing the Liberty to the HH is not valid because they are in two different size clases. The HH is significantly larger and heavier by 400lbs. The new RAV4 is more Liberty sized.
The performance of the hybrids is absolutely dependent on the driver and outside conditions. Anecdotally, at 60-65 mph I can get 28-30 mpg all day long on any HH for any length of time chosen. In the Prius in normal weather 48-51 mph is the average value for the majority of drivers. Again anecdotally I'm at 48.5 mpg lifetime over 34,000 mi ( GreenHybrid database ).
If Toyota puts a good diesel car on the road, it could be a serious threat to their hybrids and possibly kill them altogether. Honda is investing in diesel more than it is in hybrids. Why?
Actually Honda and Toyota are investing in both technologies at the same time. Honda is building another plant here in the US where it will make a smaller-than-Civic hybrid. Toyota has the hybrid Sienna in the wings at the next remake, Spring 2008.
As noted previously, Honda has chosen hybrid technology for its smaller vehicles and diesel technology for it's midsized vehicles, primarily because Honda's IMA is not too efficient for larger vehicles but less costly and better for lighter vehicles. Toyota is apparently doing the reverse since its HSD is more efficient for midsized vehicles but possibly too costly for smaller vehicles.
I can get 40 MPG at 80 MPH on a flat road in my TCH. I saw it often in June on my long trip to Texas. Did not have a TANK that was over 40 mph, but the real-time meter is available at all times, so you can check your MPG at any given moment. I did have a 39.50 MPG tank during that trip, although that was not all at 80 mph. Would be interesting to put a TCH on a track and set the cruise at 80 mph and drive it to empty and see what it could do.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Audi A8 challenge part 1
A8 challenge part 2
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
CAREFUL with generalizations like that.
I can get 40 MPG all day on the highway in my TCH, sometimes even up to 43 MPG, and it's a 3600 pound "family sedan."
I have a cubicle mate who had a 2005 Prius and consisently got 51 MPG on his 32 mile daily hwy commute.
It's true that diesels are designed for higher MPG at hwy speeds because of the low rpms and torque that they achieve, but hybrids in 2006/2007 are not just econoboxes with 100 hp engines like they were a few years ago.
Hybrids have come a long way and are only going to get better, as are the clean diesels.
If the next Gen Prius hits 90+ MPG like Toyota is shooting for, watch out diesels - you are not going to have a competitor.
Unless someone does what I want and comes out with a diesel hybrid car. :shades:
PM and NOx are now a non-issue for diesels. Toyota is starting to sweat about diesel power. If they are buying into Isuzu to build diesels, then they must realize that gasser hybrids are in trouble. In America, most driving is long distance, not a strong point for the gasser hybrid or any hybrid.
It's not exactly accurate but it's good for discussion.