Diesels in the News

ruking1

Sorry to hear that prospective buyers are fewer and slower to act for a 2005 GMC Hybrid. What would be your SWAG for diesel (if diesels were available in that size/model?

kdhspyder

It was a 2001 Prius in Good/Average condition with 71000 miles which is about normal.

There was no special equipment on it except Side/Curtain Airbags.

ACV for this area ( Auction value ) was $6900 but to do the deal we had to sell the TCH at invoice; i.e. their trade 'appeared' to be $9500.

ruking1

"It was a 2001 Prius in Good/Average condition with 71000 miles which is about normal.

There was no special equipment on it except Side/Curtain Airbags.

ACV for this area ( Auction value ) was $6900 but to do the deal we had to sell the TCH at invoice; i.e. their trade 'appeared' to be $9500. "

In terms of average yearly mileage of between 12,000 to 15,000 miles, the car's a yearly average of 11,833 miles.

So an interesting comparison would be cars of that time frame: TDI, Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic.

moparbad

DCX & VW Bluetec

quote-
DaimlerChrysler AG, Volkswagen AG and its Audi unit will announce tonight in Los Angeles that the automakers have agreed to jointly use a clean diesel technology developed by Mercedes-Benz as they seek to comply with stricter U.S. emissions standards, company officials said Monday.

The automakers will make the commitment to use and market Bluetec, which Mercedes-Benz debuted in three of its U.S. models last month. Another model will use the technology next year.

With their Bluetec pact, the automakers jointly brand a "green" technology as they attempt to answer the success of other companies' hybrid vehicles, especially Toyota's.
-end

moparbad

New Chevrolet Diesel Car in UK

As GM takes Chevrolet global from USA to the UK and China and everywhere in between it is adding diesel as an engine choice.
The new diesel engine in the article has promising specifications. The Lacetti is sold as a Chevrolet Optra in Canada and as the Forenza in USA, though without the diesel engine.

So I'm wondering, will Chevrolet bring it's diesel engines to USA passenger cars anytime soon? At 47 mpg imperial for the wagon and 49 mpg imperial for the hatch, I would not mind seeing this vehicle as a Chevrolet even if it is a Daewoo in GM clothing.

gagrice

I should have bought the 3/4 ton GMC Diesel is the bottom line. I got a good deal on this truck. About 10 grand less than the diesel. I just don't like the extended cab. I wanted the crew cab and settled for less than I should have. I will keep it if I cannot get my price. It is quiet and has the best climate control and sound system I have ever had.

coontie57

Back in late March I decided to trade in my 99 ford 250 diesel... they offered me $10,000 for a trade in at both the dodge and chevy dealership... so I kept it... I tried for 8-10 weeks to sell it ... listing it in the local I-Wanna news paper... I never had a call.. I finally sold it 2 weeks back for $10,500.. but spent another $250-$500 in taxes, repairs, insurance etc. I guess I broke even..

I just think with the price of diesel big trucks with or without diesel engines are not selling well.

Ps... it had 109K on but was a really clean vehicle... I was looking for prices on this site and I should have gotten aboutg $12K..

ruking1

Well I think you got; the right tool, at the time, for the right price, for the right reasons. Your resale experiences confirmed what we have talked about almost incessantly in other diesel/hybrid threads: hybrids have lesser resale value (over time). For the 10,000 extra for the diesel, we would be as (in my case) the Civic/Prius hybrid owners who would pay 7,500 EXTRA for say a commute car when a Civic gasser would and does JUST FINE. The concept would be similar given 7,500/10,000: buys a LOT of (unleaded regular) fuel. In my case $7,500 buys/@$2.35 = 3,191 gals.

( @38/42 mpg =)121,258 miles-132,022 miles. This would fuel my commute for between 8.58-9.3 YEARS !!??

Now if you had to get a diesel for say farm/indusry/towing operations and or it was a service vehicle that does 25-50 k per year, then the function and then the math would have indicated whether the (diesel) choice was the correct one.

coontie57

I was pulling a 9000 lb camper maybe 10k...

ruking1

I take it that would be 10,000 per year?

I would say the vagabond lure of the open road is definitely in a lot of folks' blood. This is especially true for those so called baby boomer folks. It would even be way cool to have a "mobile" business, where you can spend the majority of the time in different areas and places, LINKED by the open road and our cell phone, wi fi technology etc; both on the road and in destination locations.

coontie57

I had it a little over 7.6 years... depreciated $16,500 and drove it 109K miles. In the summer of 05 drove it 14,400 miles to Alaska and back in 4 months without a mechanical problem.. Not even broken windshield or bad tire. I had to replace the transmission at 72,500 mi and a minor wire clip problem with a fuel injector and that was the extent of the repairs on the ford 250 diesel over that time and mileage.. actually had additional transmission repairs but within the warranty on the replaced tranny.. so no cost to me.. it was the torque converter sprung a leak all over the driveway.

moparbad

new Toyota diesel engine

quote-
Toyota is a leader in the area of hybrid cars, but has been seen as something of a laggard in the diesel sector.
However, the carmaker is hoping that this new engine will help expand its sales of diesel-powered vehicles and give it a leg-up on the competition this area as well, the Asahi report said. -end

Toyota seems to have learned from their mistake of being a laggard on diesel.

KCRam

Unfortunately, you had hit the magic number. No one will warrant a vehicle over 100K miles. That means the buyer is on the hook for all repairs and failures, so they won't give you top dollar. When I traded my 1996 Ram 3500 diesel for my 05, I expected and got auction price - $6000 - the truck had almost 127,000 on it.

kcram - Pickups Host

coontie57

I was surprised at the number of full time campers we ran into on the AK trip. Canadian cell phone service was nearly a ZERO at least for Verizon and Cingular service. I noted people using cell phones but mine didn't work. They did a bit better in AK in the Ankorage and Fairbanks areas but lots of places NADA>>>

Lots and lots of campgrounds had wifi.. some free... some you paid... libraries have internet hookups but I am not sure I ever tried to use one in Canada or AK..

When I was in the USA and Ak my Verizon phone was able to link up to Earthlink via a cable... 14400 speed but >?????

ruking1

This is one of the many reasons I think diesel HAS the ability of ushering in a new age, i.e., less use of resources age. This can be EXTREMELY problematic. Of course it remains to be seen whether or not it will be adapted or whether the market and/or oems and or logistical support systems fight it tooth and nail. Two sides of the equation. Operatively: Why buy one car (7-7.5 years) to get 100,000-112,500 miles when you can get 500,000 to upwards of 1.125 MILLION miles?! The flip side is why build, maintain, logistically support a car to get 500,000 upwards of 1.125 million miles when you can easily sell 4/5 to 10 cars? (if the salvage averages are true)

Indeed it was HARDER than looking for a needle in the hay stack to find the information that the VW TDI (1.9T) has a design life of 25,000 hours (@45 miles per hour average), this converts to 1.125 MILLION MILES !!! ??

Most folks get almost antsy when a gasser gets 250,000 miles and/or hits 7-8.5 years old!!??

coontie57

That's good to know. I was however taken back by their miserly warranty on the diesel... As I recall it was for only 40,000 miles---Maybe 45K. GM, Ford, and Dodge all have 100,000 mile warranties. After having a gas Rabbit I am still nervous around VW things.

ruking1

While I would like the warrantys' with longer and more miles, I am glad some oems are taking on the 100,000 and hopefully longer and more miles. Most of my new car warranty's have been 3 years/36,000 miles. These have been on so called reliable cars such as Toyota Camry's, Landcruisers, Honda ,Accords and Civics. The VW TDI had as I recall, 4 years/50,000 miles.

I had a 1970 Beetle (250,000). The exhaust/header/system rusted out every 2/3 years. I had the clutch changed out at 110k miles. It could have gone much longer, but once you have it out, you have essentially paid for the labor, sooooooo it would be cost prohibitive to NOT change the part/s themselves.

The 1978 Rabbit's (96,000) A/C went south in high summer in the EVERGLADES, FL with 4 people in the car, covered under warranty.

The 2003 VW Jetta TDI (83,000) just had a rear door lock changed out under oem recall.

But yes, I would agree that for a host of reasons VW's(gassers) seem to have higher % reliability issues.

ruking1

But then again, you might want to check the Edmunds.com thread 2007 Toyota Camry Woes

Since I had problems with my 1985 Toyota Camry, I would hate to think Toyota has taken the Microsoft approach to solving issues. 22 years of making Camry's and still trying to get it right?

kdhspyder

It's a forum for owners to vent. In toto there are less than 100 participants. It's intended just for the unhappy.

Published today: YTD sales 403,000 units.

There seem to be a lot more satsified than dissatisfied clients.

moparbad

403,000 sales in the US for one model of passenger car is phenomenal!

I'm excited that Toyota is investing in diesel for the future. Think of how many they could sell.

ruking1

Yes, it seems like (going forward) a lot of oems are lining up to offer diesel options in some of the more popular models. I read in passing that JD Powers predicts app 9% in the very near future, if the ones that show interest actually bring diesel models to market.

I think if diesel models are not "too" well received by the USA buying public, it will grow to roughly the same size as the SUV market @ 12% of the passenger vehicle population.

kdhspyder

In two years, not to mention 5 years the options will be fantastic with all the new developments coming to the forefront now. Hopefully the gasser will become a well-respected retiree. :shades:

winter2

Many years ago, Toyota made very good basic cars and their reputation was quite good. As time has gone on, Toyota has started to live on their reputation. In their quest to overtake GM as #1 automaker, Toyota's quality has slipped significantly as manifested by the million plus recall of Toyota cars and trucks. Toyota has also tried to bury some of the defects until they were taken to court in Japan (steering problem that caused loss of life).

Toyota's late entry into the diesel market shows that they know that hybrid gassers are only a bandaid fix to a larger problem. Mercedes engineers has shown the world that you can make a squeaky clean diesel for less than you can build a hybrid.

winter2

It's a forum for owners to vent. In toto there are less than 100 participants. It's intended just for the unhappy.

I belong to several forums and yes a few people do vent, but in most cases the forums are a place to exchange information. In one of the forums, there were plenty of people who were happy with their cars.

ruking1

From my perspective, 2 years will be watching the market develop for a min of 5 years. If we count MB's entry into the USA market, more like 20-30 years. My own interest really peaked in 1986, but I didn't do anything about it till 2003.

Again going forward ULSD will be AN alternate fuel for easily, the next generation.(30-33 years)

ruking1

"Many years ago, Toyota made very good basic cars and their reputation was quite good. As time has gone on, Toyota has started to live on their reputation. In their quest to overtake GM as #1 automaker, Toyota's quality has slipped significantly as manifested by the million plus recall of Toyota cars and trucks. Toyota has also tried to bury some of the defects until they were taken to court in Japan (steering problem that caused loss of life).

Toyota's late entry into the diesel market shows that they know that hybrid gassers are only a bandaid fix to a larger problem. Mercedes engineers has shown the world that you can make a squeaky clean diesel for less than you can build a hybrid."

I would agree. UPSHOT: buyer beware. But in at least one annecdotal case, it is NOT across the board. My experiences were really perceptual, in that I did not have an 60's 70's Japanese car sans the 1974 Toyota Landcruiser. Combine that with (my perception) very poor quality when they came out in force in the late 60's and 1970's and after the 1985 Toyota Camry, I was more than skeptical about getting at least another Toyota Camry. Prior experiences with a 1974 Toyota Landcruiser indicated it was pretty bullet proof, so when I was in need of a bigger vehicle, I was NOT going to replace it with another Toyota Camry. So the 1987 Toyota Landcruiser became a logical choice. Even at that time, they had a diesel option that was allowed to be imported to (north america) CN, but NOT to the south of the continent. The good news and bad news was the total north american importation for the 1987 model year was like 4/5k with 2,500 to CN and the rest to the USA market.

kdhspyder

That particular forum is intended for the unhappy and dissatisfied to vent. There are other forums certainly that are a lot more positive, 2007 Camry, Hybrid Camry, Toyotanation, etc.

Using the 'Woes' forum as any kind of barometer is not statistically valid.

ruking1

I don't think anyone is making a case for statistical validity based on the variable of "Woes".

However to me the nexus would be an accessible thread to express (good, bad, indifferent) about a so called common product experience. It is a well know sales and marketing dictum that a satisfied customer tells three others and a dissatisfied one tells 10. The math (if true) favors the expression of dissatisfaction.

kdhspyder

Actually I think characterizing Toyota as being late to diesels is not accurate, since in most other parts of the world they produce them in mass numbers.

As noted on lots of other forums the increase in recalls is a reflection of the new political, product liability and public relations environment since the Exploder/Firestorm fiasco a couple of years back. Now the way to diffuse any kind of huge problem like that is 'Get it out to the public, handle it and it'll go away if done properly.' ( Tylenol back in the 80's ).

Some of the crazy things now being recalled as safety hazards are:
cupholders on the Dodge Durango..
carpeting on the Toyota Highlanders..

These can be hazards but they do bloat the statistics for all vehicle makers.

kdhspyder

This is drifting off the diesel subject but the other forums noted have the opportunity to present a more varied experiences ( good, bad, indifferent ). The 'Woes' forum is like a Rorshach Test, it 'pulls' for the dissatisfied buyer.

kdhspyder

The review herein of the BluTec 320 MB is very very impressive. If it were only accessible to the general public in a $25,000-$30,000 vehicle it could have a huge beneficial effect.

Limiting it to the elite who can go for 50 dimes on wheels is ... well outside my range.

ruking1

I am glad you are reversing your prior position that market discussions outside of the USA market is not applicable or irrevelant.

I think in someways the oem's (to varing degrees) have brought some of those unintended consequences on themselves. If we look at the Ford "exploder"/Firestone BAD TIRE situation, the only real scary things are informational. Ford could/would never admit that an SUV has a higher center of gravity and Firestone could never admit it was used to making tires of lower quality and did so for a very very long time. So you have Ford that recommended a WAY lower PSI (in part to compensate for this variable) in their technical literature and Firestone who didn't stand up to FORD as the primary oem tire supplier by saying if you put these lower PSI values that it will encourage more failures.

kdhspyder

Agree completely on the genesis of the Ford/Firestone case.

When it was discovered, and both did know at one point that they had a huge problem, it should have been handled like the Tylenol scare. Address it, Fix it, Get it behind you.

This is how all manufacturers have to handle recalls now. No company wants it's CEO called before Congress. No company wants to have to send a Management Apology Team to visit victims in their homes.

Announce it, Address it, Fix it, Get it in the Past. I've had two of the 'massive' safety recalls done this year;
the steering recall on small cars ( Prius ), done during a normal oil change;
the carpeting recall on the Highlander, done during a normal oil change;

Net effect - Nothing. No lost time, No extra expense, No nothing. It's in the Past.

ruking1

I would agree, first, let me go back on the Ford/Firestone gig. This is of course, arm chaired Saturday, Sunday, Monday,AFTER the fact, play the replay quarterbacking but the answers were easily done. Ford to so call, recall MUCH EARLIER the tire pressure decal to up the tire pressure information. Firestone to (voluntarily) team with Ford to offer to change those tires that folks may have been unhappy with that recommended tire pressure. Sure you would have gotten a certain % of so called "cheaters". But the decal recall would have almost TOTALLY addressed the real issues and the tire change procedure would have been a "goodwill" effort.

Why do I say this? The 1987 Toyota Landcruiser (among many others) used the exact SAME tire size and in a lot of cases Firestones, but used so called more "correct" tire pressures and experienced no such problems. As I dug deeper into the technical issue of WAY reduced tire pressure I personally was absolutely horrified in comparing the technical recommendation of TLC to the Ford Explorer on tire pressure alone.

KCRam

...on the tangents, ok?

kcram - Pickups Host

blufz1

I don't think we are going to have to wait 3 years for the Honda Diesel. Do you guys think we will see the Honda diesel next model year?

ruking1

In some ways yes and in some ways no. Your post actually jogged a subliminal perception that I really had not verbalized or written much about. If it is considered off topic, I will drop it and move on.

As I mentioned in other posts, the diesel power plant can have the unintended consequences, or power to change perceptions from a longevity point of view. So for example, since I have a Jetta TDI and Honda Civic side by side, I am beginning (at 83,000 and 36,000 miles respectively) to notice a HUGE difference in how long so called consumables last: tires, alignment, brakes pads, shoes, rotors, shocks, struts, air filters, oil filters, etc. Right now, by measurement and SWAG, the diesel's parted items seem to last twice as long. I am working on 100,000 miles on the OEM tires on the Jetta TDI and will be lucky to get 50,000 miles on the oem tires on the Honda Civic. If anything, I am a LOT smoother and LESS demanding on the Honda Civic!!?? So for sure durability is NOT sexy or even at times sound bite able. It does seem to me those types of adjustments should be made. It is as simple as; why put a 1.1M mile motor in a 150,000 mile support system!!??

walterquint

I read that Honda will be bringing its 4cyl diesel to the american market in 2 yrs or so. But who knows?.......Toyota wasn't really lax in bringing diesels to the US. The co. probably wanted to wait until the cleaner diesel fuel became available, so it could sell its diesels in the greener states. Toyota has a much easier time selling its diesels overseas b/c other countries lack our environmental restrictions.......Diesels are clearly more durable and more robust than conventional engines. However, I don't see how a diesel engine makes brakes, tires, struts, etc. last longer. A better comparison would be Jetta to Jetta.

ruking1

No, it doesn't MAKE those parts last longer per se, it hopefully motivates the oem's to engineer them to last longer. Since Honda would probably be tickled that a good percentage will get say 250,000 miles, they would tend to engineer parts to last a much shorter time, as I have swagged. Jetta (gasser)to Jetta (TDI) wise the motor is the weaker mileage link say 250,000 miles to 500,000 to 1.1 M.

moparbad

Honda V6 Diesel Ridgeline Automotive News is free this week. This article should be accessible for one week. 12/04/06

Honda is bringing V6 and 4 cylinder diesels. Yea!

ruking1

..."A better comparison would be Jetta to Jetta. "...

Alright then. I am led to believe engineering wise, the 5 speed manual mated to the TDI has a clutch system that will easily last 400,000 to 500,000 miles!! Is it true on the gasser side? Not sure, for many of the gassers are not kept 400-500k.

moparbad

Tiguan Diesel

More diesels!

moparbad

BMW Diesels in 2008

More diesel news from Automotive News. (Automotive News is free week of 12/04)

Nice to see BMW joining the party!

kdhspyder

This makes great sense for Honda, they've already announced an Ody diesel, an MDX diesel ( Ody platform ) and now a Ridgeline ( Ody platform ). Good synergy.

qbrozen

darn. 2010 or possibly 2009 before the V6 diesel. We'll be replacing our Pacifica in 2008, so I'm afraid honda is going to be a bit late for us.

moparbad

We'll be replacing our Pacifica in 2008, so I'm afraid honda is going to be a bit late for us.

Dodge has a contract for a light duty diesel that will be on the market in 2008 in the Ram 1500 and Durango.
Perhaps Dodge may have a vehicle that is acceptable. Lot of diesels forthcoming from Daimler.

qbrozen

That's who I'm counting on at this point. We may stretch for an R320cdi, but I'm really hoping for a diesel Pac.

ruking1

I think also the price for entry for a diesel model is FAR less; than say for hybrid. There is a "trickle down" effect to the consumer also. Even for the higher end marquee MB, the diesel model is less than 1k? However because a diesel model might be considered the "newest" hot thing, it would be predictable, that dealers might/would indeed start at MSRP rather than the time tested Edmunds.com 's goal of invoice plus.

kdhspyder

This might be doubtful.. the Prius and Jetta TDI were the same size and same price when last compared. The Passat TDI and the loaded TCH are not even close in price if I recall the Passat being $5000 more.

And the increased cost of the additional filters, etc have not been figured yet. But sales price has to do with marketing and has little to do with cost of production. When the diesels do arrive in numbers in a couple of years they will likely be priced right where the hybrids are. Why would VW, Honda, Toyota, et al give up any potential profit.

Guesstimate: the Honda Accord Diesel ( HAD ) will be in the $26,000-$31000 range. The small Toyota will be in the $17000-$21000 range. The Passat will still be above $35000.

moparbad

2005 Passat TDI Sedan MSRP $23,060.

The Passat TDI and the loaded TCH are not even close in price if I recall the Passat being $5000 more. :confuse:

"Loaded" 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid $31,XXX plus.

In 2005, Passat could be purchased for same cost as a Prius.