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I am not sure what is doubtful. For example, Prius has no gasser and/or diesel equivalents. So another nexus is how the two(Prius/Jetta/Golf Beetle) vehicles get their EPA and or real world MPG's. The Jetta TDI had the "equivalent gasser 1.8T as I have mentioned in this or other diesel threads. The diesel premium was something along the lines of 150 dollars. Same for the Passat gasser and diesel. Honda Civic had all three (more actually) gasser, hybrid, and diesel- which was not available in the USA market. When I got my 2004 Honda Civic gasser, the dealer would not let the hybrid go for under 20k with the gasser going for 12,564 or 7,436 dollars higher.
So in truth for me to compare the Prius hybrid (at the time) was to simply look at $27,000 vs $18,000 TDI and ask (myself) if 9k MORE for its intended uses, made sense on the obvious levels and levels of importance and concern to me. In my case at 2.75 per gal and 48 mpg, 9k buys 3273 gals or 157,104 miles of commuting. A 54 R/T mile commute= 11 years of commuting.
http://www.trident-vehicles.co.uk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
A diesel sports car that goes 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and gets 60 mpg at 55 mph. But who could keep this baby at only 55 mph? No chance it'll come to the U.S. And in the UK it's selling for 60k pounds.
tdidawg
Wards 2007 10 Best Engines
quote- DaimlerChrysler AG’s 3L DOHC V-6 turbodiesel, the only ’07-model light-duty diesel engine for sale in the U.S., is available in a trio of Mercedes-Benz models as well as the Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD. The powerful and frugal new diesel V-6 produces torque that far surpasses gasoline engines of similar size while providing 25% better fuel economy.-end
The Avalon range as opposed to the Camry range.
I'm open to being corrected
The 25% improvement will put it right around 28-30 mpg on Average.
ARE they now using the benz V6? Where can we see specs on this? I don't see it on the Jeep website.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0606_jeep_grand_cherokee_crd_diesel/
I don't see the point to this at all. And why in the world does the GC get 19/23 and the Benz ML get about 4-5 mpg more? The R-class is a bit better than that, even. And the GL is right around there, as well. Just what is chrysler doing wrong with this setup? The curb weight of the Cherokee is actually quite a bit lower than the Benz models, so I should think it would do better, not worse.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Now, if you need to tow, maybe the Cherokee is a good alternative to the Highlander/Pilot. But for most buyers, any kind of premium wouldn't make much sense.
Besides, I've seen what Grand Cherokees are like after 100k miles, and it ain't pretty. The engine is probably the least of a Cherokee owner's worries.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Comparably equipped, I think the diesel versions are only about $2K more than the gasser versions..
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Depends on what you compare, too. The 2.0T (or 1.8T of yesterday) is a bit more than a comparably equipped 2.5. So comparing the TDI to the 2.5 would be a bigger difference than to the 2.0/1.8t.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
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Your above quote was actually close to my off the top of my head memory. Or more correctly my off the top of my head memory came close to your quote.
Mine was late 2002 early 2003.
But in using the current 3.6L V6 as a benchmark it comes in around $34000 - $36000 loaded, Navi, heated seates, upgraded sound system etc.
Edmunds pricing
So is a similarly equipped Passat diesel going to be in this same range or more in the low 30's? Is a new 2.5L TDI going to go for $5K less than the 3.6L gasser? My guess is that they will price the new diesel similarly equipped at the same price as the gasser.
Just guessing, though..
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'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
hopefully that won't happen.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The Avalon range as opposed to the Camry range.
I'm open to being corrected
I already posted the pricing and you are still "open to being corrected?
The actual MSRP prices for 2005 and 2004 Passat TDI are still available on the internet. May I suggest checking prices before posting them instead of relying on memory.
My question still stands do you think that with the V6 gasser coming in around $35K for the top trim level that the diesel version with the same equipment will come in around the same level?
You stated you were discussing the Passat TDI. Do you need to retract that, or did you intend to discuss the Passat TDI? GL or GLS, they were never in the mid $30K range or close to it.
$25,660 MSRP 2005 Passat TDI GLS Sedan.
GLS had standard sunroof, standard monsoon sound system, standard universal garage door opener, etc...
The only major option on this car is leather and wood package which sold for MSRP $1590.
$27,250 is the price of the fully equipped Passat TDI.
Why you think they were in the mid $30K range is beyond me.
If you wanted 17" wheels there would be an added cost of $400.
And for the record, the difference in cost between GLS and GLS TDI Passat Sedan was $205 more for the diesel.
the 2007 Toyota Camry hybrid is msrp 26,200/invoice 23,580
vs 2007 Toyota Camry SE msrp 21,940/invoice 19,527
differences are msrp 4,260 invoice 4,053.
So a 150-205 VW gasser vs diesel is almost neglible vs the gasser hybrid ?
This is almost a CRAZY value, given a 25,000 HOUR diesel engine (@45 AVG mph= app 1,125,000 miles vs a gasser/ gasse/hybrid of 250,000 miles?
quote-
On the green front, some of the vehicles shown and announcements made - from diesels to General Motors' plug-in hybrid project - reveal just how fragmented the industry's answers to environmental and fuel consumption challenges have become.
-end
Even at this writing, it is literally an uphill battle to impossible to put up (potent) solar panels (homeowners) for electrical and/or transportation purposes, on so called PUD's which is the only MASS development(s) CA really allow/s. There are literally a whole host of obstacles to over come.
Even if they actually removed the various obstacles to doing the "DEED," we are talking $20,000 to $25,000. Of course the B/E is over 250 months or /12= 20.83 years.
At the returns I am used to; if I took that (seed) money over that time period, that converts to over $1.2 M.-$1.56 M. Any SWAGS as to how the cards in the deck are/is stacked!?
I'll take it that you expect there to be a $5000 difference between the two. This makes the diesel a no brainer - with similar equipment. No one should even consider a V6 gasser Passat under these conditions then.
OR...
Do you think that by putting the top of the line V6 gasser in this price range that they are preparing the way for the diesel to also be in the $35000-$37000 range next year? Both are priced the same choose which suits you best?
OR...
Is the diesel going to be the 'intermediate' model in the $25000-$30000 range and the V6 Gasser is going to be the 'premium' model in the $35000 range? Camry vs Avalon.
vs 2007 Toyota Camry SE msrp 21,940/invoice 19,527
There is nowhere near the same equipment or performance in these two models.
The closest difference between a gasser Camry and the TCH is between the 4c XLE and the base TCH and the base V6 gasser... but you still have to equalize them for differing equipment levels.
The base invoice tells nothing.
Here is the real picture for all three with about the same equipment, cloth, S/R, VSC/Trac, 6Disc w/BT, alloy wheels.
4c XLE MSRP $26445 / INV $23910
TCH .. MSRP $28148 / INV $25706
V6 LE. MSRP $28024 / INV $24675
Most folks could care less to know that the majority of what hits the market as unleaded regular starts the with the refinement of light sweet crude, which is FAR less available than "other than light sweet" crude, which is 30-40% CHEAPER than light sweet crude. So one might want to ask the question is how would folks feel if fuel prices such as diesel were 30-40% cheaper than current prices?
I am not sure about your obsession with Passat diesel pricing. I have not seen where they have even made a decision as to the diesel engine they will use. Last I heard they are negotiating with MB for a Blutec solution. Comparing a 6 second 0-60 MPH V6 with a diesel Passat is like comparing the TCH to the Camry V6. They are not competitors as many folks have posted in the TCH forum. The bottom line is you should be comparing the price of the 2.5L 5 cylinder VW to the diesel pricing. Just as the TCH should be compared to the 4 cylinder Camry XLE. If you buy a diesel car it is for two major reasons longevity and economy. If you buy a V6 you are looking for performance over economy. This whole comparison should be based on the Jetta. That is the real competitor to the Camry TCH. Sales gains by VW with the Jetta TDI bare that out.
2003 Jetta TDI, 1.9 T 90 hp/155 #ft of torque 42/49
2007 Camry Hybrid, 2.4, 187 hp/138 #ft of torque 40/38
2007 Camry SE, 2.4, 158 hp/161 #ft of torque 24/33
As ruking has stated, (and forgive me it I miss quote) that light sweet crude is best for making unleaded gasoline and the majority of that light sweet crude comes from the Middle East.
While most of the discussions about diesels revolve around pollution (a very important issue, though dwindling as diesels become cleaner) and cost per vehicle and cost of operation (a personal issue), we as a group and a nation seem to have lost (from my perspective) the reason for getting on the diesel band wagon. Reduced dependence on foreign oil and reduced consumption using diesels with out giving up the miles we drive. Again, no secret.
Just think about how hard OPEC is working to walk that fine line to keep you as a consumer from changing the way you run your life or saying “ENOUGH!”
Reducing consumption is what it’s all about.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/opec-appears-ready-defend-60/story.aspx?gu- id=%7BA94181A9%2D0635%2D440C%2DB56D%2D63B5725D8B91%7D
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Members of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries will meet next week and they appear ready to set a floor for prices amid worries of weakening demand from a slowing U.S. economy.
Officials from the cartel have voiced support for a production cut, just two months after 10 of its 11 members agreed to cut output by 1.2 million barrels a day.
What's surprising to many experts is that OPEC is planning to cut output at a time when overall demand for oil is growing.
While OPEC may be seeking a higher target for oil prices, the trick will be to balance oil at a price that doesn't destroy demand.
A decision for a reduction in output would probably come "mainly because [members] are worried about building inventories," said Phil Flynn, a senior analyst at Alaron Trading in Chicago.
But OPEC is "finding that demand has not been destroyed at these [price] levels, so they think the world can afford it," he said.
OPEC members, excluding Iraq, agreed at a meeting in October to reduce production to 26.3 million barrels a day, starting Nov. 1, from output levels of around 27.5 million barrels.
Last week, OPEC President Edmund Daukoru said the group may decide to cut production by an additional 500,000 barrels a day when it meets Dec. 14 in Nigeria.
"Right now, a half a million barrel-per-day cut is the odds on favorite outcome -- and that number is in the name of 'market stability'," said Edward O'Connor, president of energy-trading and brokerage-services provider Optionable Inc.
On the issue of the 2006 Jetta TDI getting 50 mpg, I also noticed another anomoly between Euro/USA in the 6 speed manual which is NOT available in the USA market. This extra gear and gearing can translate to 2 to 4 mpg extra!!
You missed, howevder, the other motor and the 295 ft-lbs of torque from the electric motor from 0-1200 rpms.
Also,
The Jetta is not Camry-sized it's almost exactly the same size as the Prius. Both are 'tweeners.
Your opinion has been noted and it will be given the consideration it deserves.
There is nothing unbiased about my opinions
That being said I am anxiously awaiting a clean diesel hybrid that can burn biodiesel made here in the US.
Now here's a question for the audience. ( Two actually )
How much would you go out of the way to obtain biodiesel?
How much would you be willing to pay for it?
My answers..
10 total miles per tankful .. 5 mi each way.
$4-$5 /Gal, especially if it was made locally and the revenue stayed local.
So do you suppose that helps or hurts the 40/38 mpg? The quoted information is from Edmunds.com. I am not privy to why they left it out. I am swagging it doesn't do much pass the 0-1200 rpms. If it provided an additional 295 #ft of torque across the bandwidth that would rate a YAHOO from me.
Getting back to the TDI, it rates a yahoo from me only because for a 90 hp 1.9 TDI it puts out 155# ft of torque and STILL gets 50 mpg. (actually between 44-62 mpg) but to get past 52 mpg, I have to drive it more like a gasser hybrid driver does.
I have actually had several of the folks I know with these big Buicks getting the same mileage...
UNFORTUNATELY Buick quit making them in 04 I think it was... and they never advertised the great mileage they got.. GO FIGURE!!!
In addition the e-motor can drive the vehicle alone without the gasser getting involved at all.
Why Edmunds omitted it I don't know.
What is the effect? Well without some power booster the Atkinson-tuned gasser would be unsellable since it has very little low end power or passing power. Most Prius' will beat any V6 or truck off the line in the initial acceleration. That 295 lb-ft of torque is there at rpm #1. That's more than most V6 gassers have at 4-5000 rpms. The more powerful gasser's pick up quickly when all that horsepower kicks in at 2nd or 3rd gear.
Actually that was my take also, which is why I asked the question in the way I did.
- i'd go 10 miles out of my way per tankful to get
biodiesel if VW approved it. in fact there is a biodiesel pump 10 miles out of my way, but I know it's not the wimpy B5 which is the max VW approves.
- for B5 i'd pay a quarter more per gallon I suppose.
1. totally use "so called" domestic oil
2. to eliminate the importation of 40-50% of total USA demand (which is commonly acknowledged is how much we "import")
3. Switch from the relatively uncommon light sweet crude (from which the overwhelming majority of unleaded regular is refined) to the infinitely more available "other than light sweet crude" . Diesel can be refined up to 30-40% cheaper from this source in addition to being cheaper to refine. (process wise)
it will be improbable to impossible to lessen dependence on unleaded regular, if we continue to use 97% on up, unleaded regular the passenger vehicle fleet.
Think about why YOU would care about about the OPEC cost of a barrel of oil if you could get unleaded regular for .30 cents a gal for example like Venezuelians and Iranians or other such oil producing countries can!!?? I mean RIGHT NOW !!!??
SJMN December 12, 2006 TRUTH IN MILEAGE full ratings to be cut to reflect reality. By Matt Nauman, pg 1A.
Two examples EPA ratings:
Toyota's Prius
2007 old 60mpg C/51 mpg H, 55 mpg combined
2008 new 42-48mpg C/41-46 mpg H, 44 mpg combined
Corolla
32mpg C / 40 mpg H, combined 28.9
This ups the "value added" by diesel even higher.
No, No, No it does not do anything to the diesel faction.
Just because the EPA changes it's test does not mean the mileage you can achieve in a Prius CHANGES ONE IOTA.
The people getting 55 MPG in their Prius are not going to wake up tomorrow and start getting 45 MPG all of a sudden.
The only thing changing is the EPA test is modified to reflect more realistic driving conditions.
The Prius is still going to average 48 MPG in "real world" driving conditions.