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Diesels in the News

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes, I think I know what you are getting at. You also seem to agree with what I am saying.

    I am not sure what is doubtful. For example, Prius has no gasser and/or diesel equivalents. So another nexus is how the two(Prius/Jetta/Golf Beetle) vehicles get their EPA and or real world MPG's. The Jetta TDI had the "equivalent gasser 1.8T as I have mentioned in this or other diesel threads. The diesel premium was something along the lines of 150 dollars. Same for the Passat gasser and diesel. Honda Civic had all three (more actually) gasser, hybrid, and diesel- which was not available in the USA market. When I got my 2004 Honda Civic gasser, the dealer would not let the hybrid go for under 20k with the gasser going for 12,564 or 7,436 dollars higher.

    So in truth for me to compare the Prius hybrid (at the time) was to simply look at $27,000 vs $18,000 TDI and ask (myself) if 9k MORE for its intended uses, made sense on the obvious levels and levels of importance and concern to me. In my case at 2.75 per gal and 48 mpg, 9k buys 3273 gals or 157,104 miles of commuting. A 54 R/T mile commute= 11 years of commuting.
  • tdidawgtdidawg Member Posts: 8
    Hey, y'all. Check out the Trident Iceni
    http://www.trident-vehicles.co.uk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
    A diesel sports car that goes 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and gets 60 mpg at 55 mph. But who could keep this baby at only 55 mph? No chance it'll come to the U.S. And in the UK it's selling for 60k pounds.
    tdidawg
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    A diesel has made the list of Wards 10 Best Engines and it is even sold in the USA.
    Wards 2007 10 Best Engines

    quote- DaimlerChrysler AG’s 3L DOHC V-6 turbodiesel, the only ’07-model light-duty diesel engine for sale in the U.S., is available in a trio of Mercedes-Benz models as well as the Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD. The powerful and frugal new diesel V-6 produces torque that far surpasses gasoline engines of similar size while providing 25% better fuel economy.-end
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I will admit that I may misremember the pricing but I was of the impression that the upscale Passat TDI was in the mid-high $30K's while the standard model was about $29-$33K.
    The Avalon range as opposed to the Camry range.

    I'm open to being corrected ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That's great new for us all. I assume it meets bin 8 making it available in the 45 non-CARB states but it doesn't yet meet bin 5.

    The 25% improvement will put it right around 28-30 mpg on Average.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    hmmmm... the last I read, the Cherokee was using an entirely different diesel. A V8, if I recall correctly. And mileage was still going to be a dismal 18-19 city and like 22 highway. Or somewhere in there.

    ARE they now using the benz V6? Where can we see specs on this? I don't see it on the Jeep website.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    I guess I had it wrong. It IS the benz diesel that returns dismal numbers:
    http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0606_jeep_grand_cherokee_crd_diesel/

    I don't see the point to this at all. And why in the world does the GC get 19/23 and the Benz ML get about 4-5 mpg more? The R-class is a bit better than that, even. And the GL is right around there, as well. Just what is chrysler doing wrong with this setup? The curb weight of the Cherokee is actually quite a bit lower than the Benz models, so I should think it would do better, not worse.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Thanks for the link. I couldn't find it here or on the Jeep site either. Those FE ratings are exactly what I get on our 3.3L gasser engine right now in our Highlander. I hope there's not too much of a premium for this model.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    Personally, I wouldn't bother getting one. Like your highlander, there are already comparable vehicles out there that get similar mileage. We also achieved similar numbers in our Honda Pilot.

    Now, if you need to tow, maybe the Cherokee is a good alternative to the Highlander/Pilot. But for most buyers, any kind of premium wouldn't make much sense.

    Besides, I've seen what Grand Cherokees are like after 100k miles, and it ain't pretty. The engine is probably the least of a Cherokee owner's worries.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,617
    Most of the VW diesel models have a higher level of standard equipment...

    Comparably equipped, I think the diesel versions are only about $2K more than the gasser versions..

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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    I can't check it now since its not sold this year, but I could swear it was quite a bit lower than that.

    Depends on what you compare, too. The 2.0T (or 1.8T of yesterday) is a bit more than a comparably equipped 2.5. So comparing the TDI to the 2.5 would be a bigger difference than to the 2.0/1.8t.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,617
    I don't think the Passat comes in a 2.5? If you are referring to the Jetta, then point taken.. The base model is a lot cheaper... but, of course, with a lot less equipment..

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When I bought my 2005 Passat Wagon TDI it was right at $26k loaded. Everything available including leather and 17" wheels with Michelin top of the line tires. I sold it after 13 months for $29k. As far as I know that is the last of the Passat TDI. The newer Jetta is about the same size as the old style Passat. Making it the Camry competition. I know you can get the new Passat with a big V6 gas engine and AWD for over $30k just as most have paid for a new TCH. I don't think the 2005 Passat TDIs ever made it to $30k in this country until they were used and offered in CA with over 7500 miles.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The premium for the 2005 Passat TDI was $200 over the 1.8L gas engine. When I bought mine you could get either one for under invoice. That was Spring of 2005.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "The premium for the 2005 Passat TDI was $200 over the 1.8L gas engine. When I bought mine you could get either one for under invoice. That was Spring of 2005. "

    Your above quote was actually close to my off the top of my head memory. Or more correctly my off the top of my head memory came close to your quote. :)

    Mine was late 2002 early 2003.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ..what might be the new diesel price...

    But in using the current 3.6L V6 as a benchmark it comes in around $34000 - $36000 loaded, Navi, heated seates, upgraded sound system etc.

    Edmunds pricing

    So is a similarly equipped Passat diesel going to be in this same range or more in the low 30's? Is a new 2.5L TDI going to go for $5K less than the 3.6L gasser? My guess is that they will price the new diesel similarly equipped at the same price as the gasser.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,617
    I think a Passat TDI will come in about the same price as the 2.0T model... similarly equipped... That will make it $26K if it comes with base equipment (which it may not).. up to around $32K-$33K at the high end...

    Just guessing, though..

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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    oops. i lost track that you were referring to the passat. I don't think i ever priced a passat diesel.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    and there's the problem. Who the heck knows how it will come equipped. They could pull a Honda and only give us a loaded up model. "oh, you want diesel? than you must want leather, moonroof, and built-in cappucino machine!"

    hopefully that won't happen.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I will admit that I may misremember the pricing but I was of the impression that the upscale Passat TDI was in the mid-high $30K's while the standard model was about $29-$33K.
    The Avalon range as opposed to the Camry range.

    I'm open to being corrected


    I already posted the pricing and you are still "open to being corrected? :(

    The actual MSRP prices for 2005 and 2004 Passat TDI are still available on the internet. May I suggest checking prices before posting them instead of relying on memory. ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    If you are speaking about your post #1292 then yes you did mention a price. But I was speaking about very well-equipped models in the mid $30K range and your post only said $23K. I'm certain we aren't talking about the same type of vehicle.

    My question still stands do you think that with the V6 gasser coming in around $35K for the top trim level that the diesel version with the same equipment will come in around the same level?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    For my .02 I would say yes (close). (I posted previously on the subject) But as you probably would agree, top trimmed models are usually designed to extract maximum profit for the platform.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    But I was speaking about very well-equipped models in the mid $30K range and your post only said $23K. I'm certain we aren't talking about the same type of vehicle.
    You stated you were discussing the Passat TDI. Do you need to retract that, or did you intend to discuss the Passat TDI? GL or GLS, they were never in the mid $30K range or close to it.

    $25,660 MSRP 2005 Passat TDI GLS Sedan.

    GLS had standard sunroof, standard monsoon sound system, standard universal garage door opener, etc...

    The only major option on this car is leather and wood package which sold for MSRP $1590.

    $27,250 is the price of the fully equipped Passat TDI.
    Why you think they were in the mid $30K range is beyond me.

    If you wanted 17" wheels there would be an added cost of $400.

    And for the record, the difference in cost between GLS and GLS TDI Passat Sedan was $205 more for the diesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    As a contrast:

    the 2007 Toyota Camry hybrid is msrp 26,200/invoice 23,580

    vs 2007 Toyota Camry SE msrp 21,940/invoice 19,527

    differences are msrp 4,260 invoice 4,053.

    So a 150-205 VW gasser vs diesel is almost neglible vs the gasser hybrid ?

    This is almost a CRAZY value, given a 25,000 HOUR diesel engine (@45 AVG mph= app 1,125,000 miles vs a gasser/ gasse/hybrid of 250,000 miles?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Diesels Rise in the West

    quote-
    On the green front, some of the vehicles shown and announcements made - from diesels to General Motors' plug-in hybrid project - reveal just how fragmented the industry's answers to environmental and fuel consumption challenges have become.
    -end
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Not sure which is the good news and/or the bad news?

    Even at this writing, it is literally an uphill battle to impossible to put up (potent) solar panels (homeowners) for electrical and/or transportation purposes, on so called PUD's which is the only MASS development(s) CA really allow/s. There are literally a whole host of obstacles to over come.

    Even if they actually removed the various obstacles to doing the "DEED," we are talking $20,000 to $25,000. Of course the B/E is over 250 months or /12= 20.83 years.

    At the returns I am used to; if I took that (seed) money over that time period, that converts to over $1.2 M.-$1.56 M. Any SWAGS as to how the cards in the deck are/is stacked!?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Well it is curious then that the gasser V6 Passat here on Edmunds lists for about $36000 with leather/heated seats, Navi, upgraded sound system, etc ( previous link ). That was my part of my question originally, 'Would VW price the new diesel in the low $30K range or in the mid $30K range like the V6 gasser?

    I'll take it that you expect there to be a $5000 difference between the two. This makes the diesel a no brainer - with similar equipment. No one should even consider a V6 gasser Passat under these conditions then.

    OR...

    Do you think that by putting the top of the line V6 gasser in this price range that they are preparing the way for the diesel to also be in the $35000-$37000 range next year? Both are priced the same choose which suits you best?

    OR...

    Is the diesel going to be the 'intermediate' model in the $25000-$30000 range and the V6 Gasser is going to be the 'premium' model in the $35000 range? Camry vs Avalon.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    the 2007 Toyota Camry hybrid is msrp 26,200/invoice 23,580

    vs 2007 Toyota Camry SE msrp 21,940/invoice 19,527


    There is nowhere near the same equipment or performance in these two models.

    The closest difference between a gasser Camry and the TCH is between the 4c XLE and the base TCH and the base V6 gasser... but you still have to equalize them for differing equipment levels.

    The base invoice tells nothing.
    Here is the real picture for all three with about the same equipment, cloth, S/R, VSC/Trac, 6Disc w/BT, alloy wheels.

    4c XLE MSRP $26445 / INV $23910
    TCH .. MSRP $28148 / INV $25706
    V6 LE. MSRP $28024 / INV $24675
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The easiest is to match them, or to have a comparable hybrid. I am glad that you are point out they CLEARLY do NOT! However all this non hybrid and non gasser equipment outfitting truly has NOTHING to do with hybrid and or gasser. Even using your figures the MSRP difference is app 1,703. Again it gets back to what I was saying about profit and/or positioning, which has the effect of making it harder to really compare apples to apples.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You are correct in the end, that after you equalize all the equipment - then subtract it all out - the difference is about $1700-$1800.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Credit then has to go to among others, VW for clearly stating the premium/s or lack there of, i.e., on the GL/GLS versions, gassers/diesels.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    While, the concept of a diesel in every (or at least major) model line up is in the infant stages, this can at least lay the ground work for mathmatically starting the shift away from unleaded regular fuel only. Unleaded fuel is currently upwards of 97% of the passenger vehicle fleet.

    Most folks could care less to know that the majority of what hits the market as unleaded regular starts the with the refinement of light sweet crude, which is FAR less available than "other than light sweet" crude, which is 30-40% CHEAPER than light sweet crude. So one might want to ask the question is how would folks feel if fuel prices such as diesel were 30-40% cheaper than current prices?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Is the diesel going to be the 'intermediate' model in the $25000-$30000 range and the V6 Gasser is going to be the 'premium' model in the $35000 range? Camry vs Avalon.

    I am not sure about your obsession with Passat diesel pricing. I have not seen where they have even made a decision as to the diesel engine they will use. Last I heard they are negotiating with MB for a Blutec solution. Comparing a 6 second 0-60 MPH V6 with a diesel Passat is like comparing the TCH to the Camry V6. They are not competitors as many folks have posted in the TCH forum. The bottom line is you should be comparing the price of the 2.5L 5 cylinder VW to the diesel pricing. Just as the TCH should be compared to the 4 cylinder Camry XLE. If you buy a diesel car it is for two major reasons longevity and economy. If you buy a V6 you are looking for performance over economy. This whole comparison should be based on the Jetta. That is the real competitor to the Camry TCH. Sales gains by VW with the Jetta TDI bare that out.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes it might be useful to list the Edmunds.com data for the Camry.

    2003 Jetta TDI, 1.9 T 90 hp/155 #ft of torque 42/49

    2007 Camry Hybrid, 2.4, 187 hp/138 #ft of torque 40/38

    2007 Camry SE, 2.4, 158 hp/161 #ft of torque 24/33
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Kind of looks like we are going backward in the economy race. You get the argument that new cars have so much more to offer. Well I don't know. I have a friend in Alaska with an OLD Lincoln town car he drives out to his second home in the Midwest twice a year. He gets 31 MPG on the highway. I have ridden in it and a Camry. The Camry does not compare to Lincoln's luxury ride. Not to mention roominess. I think the 2006 Jetta TDI folks are getting right around 50 MPG also. That would be the benchmark for that sized vehicle.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    While the actions stated in the article below are no secret, I thought I might bring them to light again.
    As ruking has stated, (and forgive me it I miss quote) that light sweet crude is best for making unleaded gasoline and the majority of that light sweet crude comes from the Middle East.
    While most of the discussions about diesels revolve around pollution (a very important issue, though dwindling as diesels become cleaner) and cost per vehicle and cost of operation (a personal issue), we as a group and a nation seem to have lost (from my perspective) the reason for getting on the diesel band wagon. Reduced dependence on foreign oil and reduced consumption using diesels with out giving up the miles we drive. Again, no secret.
    Just think about how hard OPEC is working to walk that fine line to keep you as a consumer from changing the way you run your life or saying “ENOUGH!”
    Reducing consumption is what it’s all about.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/opec-appears-ready-defend-60/story.aspx?gu- id=%7BA94181A9%2D0635%2D440C%2DB56D%2D63B5725D8B91%7D

    SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Members of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries will meet next week and they appear ready to set a floor for prices amid worries of weakening demand from a slowing U.S. economy.
    Officials from the cartel have voiced support for a production cut, just two months after 10 of its 11 members agreed to cut output by 1.2 million barrels a day.
    What's surprising to many experts is that OPEC is planning to cut output at a time when overall demand for oil is growing.
    While OPEC may be seeking a higher target for oil prices, the trick will be to balance oil at a price that doesn't destroy demand.
    A decision for a reduction in output would probably come "mainly because [members] are worried about building inventories," said Phil Flynn, a senior analyst at Alaron Trading in Chicago.
    But OPEC is "finding that demand has not been destroyed at these [price] levels, so they think the world can afford it," he said.
    OPEC members, excluding Iraq, agreed at a meeting in October to reduce production to 26.3 million barrels a day, starting Nov. 1, from output levels of around 27.5 million barrels.
    Last week, OPEC President Edmund Daukoru said the group may decide to cut production by an additional 500,000 barrels a day when it meets Dec. 14 in Nigeria.
    "Right now, a half a million barrel-per-day cut is the odds on favorite outcome -- and that number is in the name of 'market stability'," said Edward O'Connor, president of energy-trading and brokerage-services provider Optionable Inc.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    You also left out getting 31 mpg in a V8 vs a V4 to get that 24/33 mpg!!?? There are of course many ways to look at this, but indeed your point is very well taken.

    On the issue of the 2006 Jetta TDI getting 50 mpg, I also noticed another anomoly between Euro/USA in the 6 speed manual which is NOT available in the USA market. This extra gear and gearing can translate to 2 to 4 mpg extra!! :)
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    So you do work for Toyota in some manner. And it looks like a salesman at that. What an unbiased approach you have to these discussions. I like lawyers better then car salesman. They don't twist the truth as much.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    2007 Camry Hybrid, 2.4, 187 hp/138 #ft of torque 40/38

    You missed, howevder, the other motor and the 295 ft-lbs of torque from the electric motor from 0-1200 rpms.
    Also,
    The Jetta is not Camry-sized it's almost exactly the same size as the Prius. Both are 'tweeners.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    So you do work for Toyota in some manner. And it looks like a salesman at that. What an unbiased approach you have to these discussions. I like lawyers better then car salesman. They don't twist the truth as much.

    Your opinion has been noted and it will be given the consideration it deserves.

    There is nothing unbiased about my opinions ;) > I am absolutely in favor of eliminating all money flows to the MidEast by what ever means possible. Diesel and hybrids both now accomplish the same fuel savings, although as my two interlocateurs above correctly point out gasoline probably eontributes more to the wealth of the Mid East than other forums of dino fuel.

    That being said I am anxiously awaiting a clean diesel hybrid that can burn biodiesel made here in the US.

    Now here's a question for the audience. ( Two actually )

    How much would you go out of the way to obtain biodiesel?
    How much would you be willing to pay for it?

    My answers..
    10 total miles per tankful .. 5 mi each way.
    $4-$5 /Gal, especially if it was made locally and the revenue stayed local.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."You missed, howevder, the other motor and the 295 ft-lbs of torque from the electric motor from 0-1200 rpms. "...

    So do you suppose that helps or hurts the 40/38 mpg? The quoted information is from Edmunds.com. I am not privy to why they left it out. I am swagging it doesn't do much pass the 0-1200 rpms. If it provided an additional 295 #ft of torque across the bandwidth that would rate a YAHOO from me.

    Getting back to the TDI, it rates a yahoo from me only because for a 90 hp 1.9 TDI it puts out 155# ft of torque and STILL gets 50 mpg. (actually between 44-62 mpg) but to get past 52 mpg, I have to drive it more like a gasser hybrid driver does.
  • coontie57coontie57 Member Posts: 128
    I have a 93 Buick Park Ave... On lots of interstate trips I have gotten between 31 and 32mpg..... so why would I want to get excited over a new car with just a itty bitty better mileage figure?
    I have actually had several of the folks I know with these big Buicks getting the same mileage...

    UNFORTUNATELY Buick quit making them in 04 I think it was... and they never advertised the great mileage they got.. GO FIGURE!!!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually this is the key reason that all the HSD vehicles get such good mileage. Tha gasser can be turned to the more efficient Atkinson cycle ( which has little get up and go but is great for cruising at a steady spead ) because the e-motor serves as the 'supercharger' for instantaneous starts and torque boost when passing while cruising.

    In addition the e-motor can drive the vehicle alone without the gasser getting involved at all.

    Why Edmunds omitted it I don't know.

    What is the effect? Well without some power booster the Atkinson-tuned gasser would be unsellable since it has very little low end power or passing power. Most Prius' will beat any V6 or truck off the line in the initial acceleration. That 295 lb-ft of torque is there at rpm #1. That's more than most V6 gassers have at 4-5000 rpms. The more powerful gasser's pick up quickly when all that horsepower kicks in at 2nd or 3rd gear.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Actually this is the key reason that all the HSD vehicles get such good mileage"...

    Actually that was my take also, which is why I asked the question in the way I did.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I had an '89 98 ( same vehlcle ) that lasted well into 2002 and was reliable AFAIK, ex's. It rode well and was solid.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    In terms of reliability and durability GM DID an EXCELLENT to SUPERB job with Buick !! While this was never problematic to me, it had sort of the reputation as an "older" folks marquee. So the good news and the bad news is while older folks can buy these, they are probably not bought in enough quantities (across wider demographics) to put the sizzle back into the brand.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    my answers for kdh the spyder's poll:
    - i'd go 10 miles out of my way per tankful to get
    biodiesel if VW approved it. in fact there is a biodiesel pump 10 miles out of my way, but I know it's not the wimpy B5 which is the max VW approves.
    - for B5 i'd pay a quarter more per gallon I suppose.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    My response in view of recent current events, is that we are looking at the situation through the "wrong" end of the binoculars. Unless there are plans to:

    1. totally use "so called" domestic oil

    2. to eliminate the importation of 40-50% of total USA demand (which is commonly acknowledged is how much we "import")

    3. Switch from the relatively uncommon light sweet crude (from which the overwhelming majority of unleaded regular is refined) to the infinitely more available "other than light sweet crude" . Diesel can be refined up to 30-40% cheaper from this source in addition to being cheaper to refine. (process wise)

    it will be improbable to impossible to lessen dependence on unleaded regular, if we continue to use 97% on up, unleaded regular the passenger vehicle fleet.

    Think about why YOU would care about about the OPEC cost of a barrel of oil if you could get unleaded regular for .30 cents a gal for example like Venezuelians and Iranians or other such oil producing countries can!!?? I mean RIGHT NOW !!!??
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    more unleaded regular fuel than we think.... if the latest SJMN article has some truth to it.

    SJMN December 12, 2006 TRUTH IN MILEAGE full ratings to be cut to reflect reality. By Matt Nauman, pg 1A.

    Two examples EPA ratings:

    Toyota's Prius
    2007 old 60mpg C/51 mpg H, 55 mpg combined
    2008 new 42-48mpg C/41-46 mpg H, 44 mpg combined

    Corolla
    32mpg C / 40 mpg H, combined 28.9

    This ups the "value added" by diesel even higher.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote ruking1 - "This ups the "value added" by diesel even higher."

    No, No, No it does not do anything to the diesel faction.

    Just because the EPA changes it's test does not mean the mileage you can achieve in a Prius CHANGES ONE IOTA.

    The people getting 55 MPG in their Prius are not going to wake up tomorrow and start getting 45 MPG all of a sudden.

    The only thing changing is the EPA test is modified to reflect more realistic driving conditions.

    The Prius is still going to average 48 MPG in "real world" driving conditions.
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