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Diesels in the News

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Comments

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Of course they view it this way. All the Europeans have a financial interest in promoting diesels. It's where their money is invested. For them hybrids are only a hedge bet.

    OTOH Toyota, Honda, Ford and now GM have dual strategy of either hybrids or diesels - maybe equally. They have money invested in both routes equally.

    It will be a good battle. Hybrids have a big headstart here in the US. Diesels have to do the same education of the public that hybrids have done over the last 5 years.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Hybrids have a big headstart here in the US. Diesels have to do the same education of the public that hybrids have done over the last 5 years"...

    I would agree from a marketing perspective. When you add in the perspective that the diesels are 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet vs hybrids at less than one half of one percent, I think those figures speak for themselves.

    As for me, I really didn't need a 2x4 to the center of the forehead on the consequences of unleaded regular 31 mpg vs diesel of 49 mpg or 58% better than unleaded regular.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    When you add in the perspective that the diesels are 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet vs hybrids at less than one half of one percent, I think those figures speak for themselves.

    In citing this statitistic you mislead - unless you qualify it by saying that 90% of the diesel registered here are heavy duty truck which are meant primarily for heavy work loads. These are not what one would normally consider a 'passenger vehicle'. Yes obviously they do carry passengers but to be more precise...

    Light diesel vehicles are a minute specialized niche in NA at the moment.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The fact that you said it is misleading is misleading. The statistics are not misleading. You might also wish to acknowledge why diesels have been systematically EXCLUDED from entry into the USA markets. This is a very stark anomoly, being as how almost every European model that has hit our shores has had diesel options, literally for decades.

    ..."Light diesel vehicles are a minute specialized niche in NA at the moment."...

    At 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet, one can make a case for this feeling. So hybrids at one half of one percent, of which diesels are 4.6 to 5.8x greater, make hybrids even less than a minute specialized niche?:)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I probably should also add that the Japanese have long marketed diesels, WW. The 1987 Toyota Landcruiser DIESEL was sold in CN !!! (in 1986)
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > You might also wish to acknowledge why diesels have been systematically EXCLUDED from entry into the USA markets.

    Certainly.

    It's because their NOx and PM levels don't even meet minimum criteria, which is well beyond a basic gas vehicle and significantly dirtier than the SULEV emission rating.

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    BOGUS! Not even close. Most gassers do NOT meet the SULEV standards! The 2003 TDI meet the standards and the law.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Saw this is our the local rag:

    Here's the hype:

    ..."drop in the amount of miles driven annually in the United States in 2005, THE FIRST DROP IN 25 YEARS."

    (ALL CAPS,BOLD my sic)

    (it continues on to say)

    "The average U.S.driver covered 13,657 miles, down from 13,711 miles in 2004, according to a survey released this week"...

    www.mercurynews.com/news
    SJMN, Saturday, 16 December 2006, The Valley, pg. 1b, "Bad tidings at the pump."

    MY TAKE:

    REAL telling how they USED BIG NUMBA'S like 13,711 and 13,657 and left out it was - 54 miles !!!???? I bet if you asked folks the %'s, most folks would freak at the BIG NUMBA'S. .0039384 percent. :(

    WOO HOO! Average of minus -54 miles per YEAR less!!! .0039384 % LESS !!!! -4.5 miles less per mo.

    And all the so called bad guys supplying us (IMPORTED light sweet crude) are quaking on their prayer rugs, because of the loss!!??? Making even the Venuezulian's President do a double sign ++ !!?? As it said in my headline post 1.08 gal saved for a TDI!!! You gasser types from to 2.16- 3.6 gals. :(:) Why is the price spiking? LOL ! :(:) No good DEEDS go unpunished!! (no matter if you save 54 miles per year)
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    Particulate matter and Nitrous Oxides are going to be lower and within the law for diesels.

    Diesels are still really nice...and add to that the fact that one can extend or blend your Diesel#2 with a small amount of Vegetable oil, either waste or straight.
    About 25% max of SVO or WVO...but I would do only 10%..but that helps lower consumption...good for the world.....

    Everytime one drives a gasser , it is like one dumping a 20 lbs bag of charcoal on the road every 20 miles anyways...

    So please do not insult any other vehicle , including diesels, when one should look at how many bags of charcoal one dumps ?!!!!

    BTW, one can also run biodiesel in diesel cars...no need for modifications, and it is a renewable resource...!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Something you said triggered me to remember what Gagrice said about an overseas freighter coming into the Long Beach, CA port and that was one freighter coming into port was the equivalent of 30-40k cars operating. Just think what that would mean for every oil tanker transporting crude oil that doesnt come in due to domestic savings and/or domestic oils, i.e., domestic #2 diesel due to American coal and gassfication?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > BOGUS! Not even close. Most gassers do NOT meet the SULEV standards! The 2003 TDI meet the standards and the law.

    Predicting how you will twist what I say has become quite a challenge. This was a very good example.

    I mentioned "basic gas vehicle" and "SULEV" seperately because they are not the same. You attempted to make people believe they were.

    In reality, most of the basic gas vehicles, for example a Corolla, easily achieves the ULEV emission rating. That's a level cleaner than LEV, which is a level cleaner than "50 state emission". SULEV is cleaner than all of them, 3 levels above "50 state emission".

    The fact that an upcoming diesel will achieve the "50 state emission" rating is nothing to be proud of. LEV, ULEV, and SULEV are all better. PZEV is a step above them all... which is what some of the hybrids deliver.

    Minimum criteria is just barely enough to allow sales, but very much still dirtier than the rest of the competition. NOx and PM levels are very disappointing without the expensive cleansing automakers are choosing not to include still. If they did, diesel would indeed be much cleaner, but the vehicle price would not be competitive then.

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There is precious little to twist! Even in areas (such as Los Angeles) that have the greatest concentration of gasser/hybrids; such as Prius and Civc hybrids, there is no statistically correlated study of them significantly DECREASING the emissions environment. Indeed there is no statistically correlated study of passenger vehicle diesels (2.3-2.9% of the population) significantly INCREASING it either.

    Indeed the "64,000 dollar questions" would be what %'s of those each of those fleets would have statistical correlations. Interestingly enough, if an average SUV gets 15 mpg and the average mpg of the fleet is 27 mpg, the expenditure is 44% MORE!!! Further, 12% of the vehicle fleet being SUV has done nothing in that regard either. I would go on to further note, that CA state since it has exempted both gasser/hybrids and passenger diesels from mandated smog only checks, indeed probably feels the same (negative declaration).
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    My goodness, are we not misinformed? PM and NOx emissions from diesel so terrible according to you.

    Hmmm. Let us not forget that gassers, including your precious Prius dump lots of unburned HC into the air whereas a diesel emits no unburned HC. A Prius dumps more than three times more CO into the than does a VW 1.9L TDI.

    Now for those of us who have done our homework, Bluetec, which VW has adopted reduces NOx by 90%. That means NOx emissions equal to or less than those of the Prius. And as to PM, add the self-cleaning filter and so much for that gripe.

    EPA is in the process of modifying testing to reflect real world driving. According to several articles I have read, hybrids will really get hammered and their numbers will go down significantly.

    As to cleaning up diesels, no one knows how much the manufacturers will charge extra for the new emissions systems. So until we have a dollar and cents figure, you cannot pass off your assumption as truth about how competitive a diesel will be.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Bluetec, which VW has adopted reduces NOx by 90%. That means NOx emissions equal to or less than those of the Prius.

    90% of extremely dirty is indeed a great improvement... but still not enough to achieve a SULEV emission rating.

    .
    > no one knows how much the manufacturers will charge extra for the new emissions systems.

    True, but they have already stated the production cost. It's about $1,500.

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."but still not enough to achieve a SULEV emission rating. "...

    Need some reality checks here. Given that it has taken oem's (such as Toyota) almost a generation (30-33 years) to achieve SULEV, Pzev status,' since the mandated switch to unleaded regular in the late 70's. I think giving oems few years for the diesel side due to the mid year 2006 switch to ULSD (CA mandated only) might be demanding diesel to be a magic elixir. Given the history of the regular to unleaded regular process, indeed diesel is WAY far ahead of the regular to unleaded regular process.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    A very easy real world example would be: how would a Toyota Prius do, meeting the same PZEV/SULEV if it ran on leaded regular? Many of the vehicles that meet these standards only do in CA, due to the other 49 states have (mandated)higher sulfur unleaded regular.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    "90% of extremely dirty is indeed a great improvement... but still not enough to achieve a SULEV emission rating. "

    Yes,, there has always been the so called visible smoke coming out of diesel engined vehicles....

    but let us not forget the tons of pollutants that gasser vehicles dump out, even though all that Carbon dioxide may be invisible to your eye. I think recent TIME magazine put it bluntly "" it is like throwing out a bag of charcoal for eveery 25 miles you drive on the freeway...."

    OK, maybe for diesel engines, it is like throwing out a 25 lbs of charcoal for every 43 miles we drive on the freeway.......

    do not forget, diesel engines last longer...and thus use less resources during its lifetime, compared to need to salvage a gasser vehicle after every 150,000 to 190,000 miles.....

    Diesel vehicles routinely last over 200,000 miles....most may even go for 300,000 plus miles....

    Not a throw away vehicle like a Prius , with all its batteries, weaker gasser engine, and thinner .. less sturdy construction, relatively speaking....

    By the way, diesels need no modifications to run biodiesel...which is a renewable resource ( comes from soybeans, peanut oil, canola , corn , algae, etc..)

    Good for the environment, eh ? :)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    You are almost funny.

    NOx emissions equivalent to or better than your Prius. Diesels engines do not dump unburned HC into the air and emit one-third less CO than your precious Prius does. And that is too dirty. Using your reckoning, the Prius is a terrible polluter.

    As to cost, it is not $1500 as you claim. There are no published figures. Also, diesels will be eligible for tax credits exceeding $3000 that no longer exist or have been significantly reduced for the hybrids. And as to cost, a TCH cost several thousand dollars more than a non-hybrid Camry yet, they are selling well. So the cost of technology argument is useless here. Look at the Highlander hybrid. Gets poorer FE in 4X2 form than my Jeep Liberty CRD on the open road and yet costs more than the Jeep.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yeah, I do not know why john1701a does not integrate the hybrid HC and CO and pricing information!!

    To address the extra cost, I also do not understand why he continues to deny the extra cost, and @ the 6 year, probable cinderella/cinderfella 3-6k battery/batteries surprise. Back in 2004 I needed a COMMUTE car and the cost of a Honda Civic was 12,564, Civic Hybrid was 20,000 and the Prius was 25,000 with a 6 month wait. Diesels to stay on nexus was 18-19k. If he can or has sources for at invoice or less Prius Hybrids, I am sure a hybrid thread (not here obviously) would be appreciative.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    And as to cost, a TCH cost several thousand dollars more than a non-hybrid Camry yet, they are selling well.

    It's about $1300 difference vs a similarly equipped 4c and $500 difference vs a similarly equipped V6.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    and the 6 year, probable cinderella/cinderfella 3-6k battery/batteries surprise.

    Please....

    Where have you been for the last 3 years? Are you back on the battery issue that was put to death months ago?

    Warranties are how long?

    Now what was your comment?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Now what was your comment?"...

    Actually the long term comment was expressed in a past post, diesel 416,000 miles vs hybrid 416,000 miles. :)
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    A liberty CRD sport 2006 can be bought for just under $19,000. Go to carsdirect.com and varify. The cost of a Toyota Highlander hybrid 2wd or 4wd are at least $6,000 more. I'm not quoting MSRP. It is how much they are being sold for. As to MPG's, the crd only comes in 4wd with a 5 speed automatic so now if we compare apples to apples the Liberty CRD is a much better buy then the Gas Hybrids with the same 4wd and automatic. Realistically the CRD liberty has given or bettered EPA mpg estimates. The worst combined was around 22 mpgs and the best at 27 mpgs. That is combined. There have bin mpg highway at 30.5(high) and 24(low). There will be the arguement about the price of Diesel. It is higher during the winter and lower in the summer then gas. Historically diesel costs less per gallon but not this year. In city driving there is no comparison, the hybrids are king. But don't take them off road or pull a load. All around the CRD has a lower maintenance cost if you don't add the costs of the extra equipment the Jeep CRD has which the Hybrids don't. (True off road capable full time 4WD). The real draw backs at this time are issues with the EGR valves and Torque converters. The EGR valve problem was largely in part due to the LSD fuel and has calmed down drastically since the ULSD has been in use. The Torque converter issue is being resolved by all the Liberty CRDs being recalled and having the Torque converters replaced and or pumps being replaced. Most of the problems associated with the Jeep liberty CRD has been a fuel quality and sulfur content issue. These vehicles are equiped with the most advanced diesel emissions systems offered on this side of the pond to date. DC took a chance and stuck it's neck out by offering this product before ULSD was available. Other makers like Toyota wouldn't take the risk. You want a fun to drive economical SUV drive the Jeep CRD's. One last note. The same Liberty sport with the 3.7 V6 gas with automatic averages about 15 MPG's The CRD version gets conservitivily 23 mpgs (combined mpgs)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    In a Consumer Affairs article, new EPA testing shows that the Prius delivers a hair over 45 MPG, basically what the public is getting. It shows that the Prius is not the Wundercar that Toyota would have us believe. Here is the link:

    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/12/priius_epa.html

    In the article, it states how Toyota technicians try to explain away the poor showing with nonsense. Toyota knows how to train their technical people well.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Other Prius owners even accused the complainers of disloyalty to the hybrid movement.

    Toyota claimed the little hybrid would get 60 miles per gallon in city traffic, not just the 45 many consumers were experiencing."...

    ..."Now it turns out that most of the hybrid owners questioning Toyota's mileage claims for the Prius were right on target while Toyota was wrong, at least according to the Environmental Protection Agency's new mileage estimates....

    The facts seem to be that the Prius gets 45 miles to a gallon on average in the city. That is the new word according to the EPA."...

    Might be one reason why the Edmunds.com diesel vs hybrid thread was CLOSED!!
    :(:)
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    Can't wait to the read kdhspyder's twist on answering this one. He won't stand a blemish on the rep of his bread and butter.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    What' exactly, does this story have to do with "Diesels In The News," again, exactly? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

    And here's something you probably did not know: that "Consumer Affairs" site is FAMOUS for posting anti-hybrid stories. I have e-mailed them several times about their anti-hybrid bias and they have never answered me.

    The new EPA tests are going to lower a LOT of EPA MPG "ESTIMATES" on a LOT of cars. But you know what? Not one single car on the road will actually GET lower MPG than before the new tests.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Disclaimer: This has nothing to do with this topic, I'm just responding to a previous off-topic post.

    Um, ACTUALLY, neither Toyota nor the EPA was ever WRONG.

    The Prius ACTUALLY GOT 60 MPG ON THE OLD EPA TEST. That was not incorrect. That was the result.

    What was incorrect is that the EPA TEST ITSELF was flawed. Not the hybrid technology, not Toyota, not the EPA's reporting of the 60 MPG.

    Just the TEST.

    Every Prius could STILL TODAY get 60 MPG on the OLD FLAWED test.

    Be sensible, people.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Welcome to more clean diesels:

    BMW diesels in USA 2008
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    huzzah, a diesel Mini, now that sounds interesting.

    Bring it here already.

    John
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "What' exactly, does this story have to do with "Diesels In The News," again, exactly? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

    And here's something you probably did not know: that "Consumer Affairs" site is FAMOUS for posting anti-hybrid stories. I have e-mailed them several times about their anti-hybrid bias and they have never answered me.

    The new EPA tests are going to lower a LOT of EPA MPG "ESTIMATES" on a LOT of cars. But you know what? Not one single car on the road will actually GET lower MPG than before the new tests"

    Yeah the same with regulators as it applies to diesels. It has literally been that way for decades, indeed going on 2 generations that I know. :(

    Again you are correct the EPA tested mileage for GASSERS will go down. (97% of the vehicle population on up) a Prius rated at 60/50 city highway will still get 42/48. Like for like, gassers are inherently more consumptive of a gal of gas as compared to a diesels consumption a gal of diesel.

    This is one of the major benefits of the diesel. Nothing new here. But then again you know that. My TDI epa rated at 42/49 will still get between 44-62 mpg. In a plain jane normal commute it will still get 47-52 mpg.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    the reason this prius mpg info is relevant to diesels is the CONTRAST: with the new EPA test, the measured Prius mpg drops considerably, but the measured TDI mpg should/will either stay the same or *increase*! OH YEAH!
    maybe we'll actually see an article in the press or on edmunds.com pointing out how the TDI mpg doesn't decrease with the new EPA test! (i don't think the new EPA #s are available yet for TDIs, but I'm on the edge of my seat - the suspense is incredible!) ;)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Not to bop your pubble or anything, but the new test will lower the EPA "estimates" on ALL cars.....TDIs included.

    (go ahead and relax; sit back in that chair, lean back, take a few deep breaths)

    PS Here is a good new PDF from the EPA with some good info in there:

    EPA Report

    Here is a telling comment from the report:

    The impact on hybrid vehicles will be significantly greater for city fuel economy, averaging a 22% reduction. However, the reduction in highway fuel economy will be similar, but toward the higher end of the range as for conventional gasoline-fueled vehicles. The impacts of the 5-cycle formulae on the single diesel vehicle in the database are very similar to those for conventional gasoline fueled vehicles.

    That means the one diesel vehicle did not "overperform" as some of the diesel fans might have hoped.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Prius ACTUALLY GOT 60 MPG ON THE OLD EPA TEST.

    How can you be so sure of that? I am no fan of CR and would take what they say with a grain of salt. However the EPA is no better. I got nothing but rhetorical crap when I contacted the EPA concerning the tests. They will not disclose what cars they have tested. Only that they test ABOUT 15% of the cars. That leaves it to the honesty of the manufacturers testing the cars. When you consider the sizable amount charged for cars going over the CAFE numbers it is not inconceivable that a manufacturer would fudge a little to make their car look better than the other guys.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That means the one diesel vehicle did not "overperform" as some of the diesel fans might have hoped

    I have not read where a lot of TDI owners are complaining of the MPG they are getting. Most are getting over the current EPA estimates by 10-15%. So why do you think the tests will impact the diesels as much as the gas cars? The bottom line is these tests are being updated because the hybrids are so far off from the EPA estimates. Thus hybrid owners are complaining, and rightly so.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed, the (GASSER) Honda Accord is more comparable ( weight, torque 166/155, wise) to the Jetta TDI. Indeed the telling portion is the EPA mileage of 24/34 vs 42/49 mpg. The difference in fuel mileage; TDI gets 75%-44% BETTER!!!???. Indeed with the new epa ratings the percentages are probably BETTER !!!

    Indeed it would be a no brainer to select a Honda Accord diesel vs the gasser (for my .02 cents)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    If the number is certified by the EPA, it's an EPA number. The Prius numbers as are all numbers on the window stickers are EPA certified numbers, therefore officially "lab repeatable."
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    gary says, "So why do you think the tests will impact the diesels as much as the gas cars?"

    Umm, because the Dec 2006 EPA pdf I posted SAYS the one diesel car already tested under the new procedure was similar to the other gas cars.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    What you are saying is true ALMOST 100%. Do the procedure (in accordance with the specifications) get the result. Absolute no brainer. EPA to randomly verify as it is more than apparent they are not the ones who actually do the testing. What is at issue here is the majority of gasser users saying their results do not meet the 2 BOLD EPA figures: CITY and HIGHWAY:

    IN THE REAL WORLD. !! ??

    Why do you ignore or gloss over this? Further if one reads ANY new car sticker, it CLEARLY gives the RANGE. So to my way of thinking, no real need to change.

    So to tell you the truth, I was NOT one of those Prius hybrid owners who complained. :) Evidently a high percentage of this almost insignificant passenger vehicle fleet market (less than one half of one percent) had enough clout to force regulators to make unnecessary changes. Party poopers? Or just severely disappointed with their purchases? :(:)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Dec 2006 EPA pdf I posted SAYS the one diesel car already tested under the new procedure was similar to the other gas cars.

    Welcome to the world of EPA double speak. What does that mean? NOTHING at all. Or are they saying the one diesel car got the same mileage as the gas cars tested? I think the only place you will see much difference is in the Hybrids.

    Your total belief in the EPA system is commendable if not naive. Much of what we live with on a day to day basis is certified something or another. Many times proven not to be what it says. You go ahead and trust the auto makers to always tell the truth. I for one don't believe it for a minute. If confronted by EPA tests all they have to say is our test came out different. Just like my last smog check at two CA approved smog stations. One said bad one said good. Just cost me an extra 50 bucks for the one that was screwed up.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Here are two

    2003 Jetta TDI

    city mpg 42
    35-49 in the city

    highway mpg 49
    41 and 57 on the highway

    2004 Honda Civic

    city mpg 29
    24 and 34 in the city

    highway mpg 38
    32 and 44 on the highway
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Ruking1,

    In response to your post #1432:

    The hybrids and/or the Prius complainers were not "the reason for the new EPA tests" at all. What they were is the catalyst for the review. Everyone knew the EPA tests were bogus a long time ago. It took a car which could run on BATTERY POWER for a long time during the EPA city test to REALLY put the final nail in the EPA test coffin and cause them to review the procedure.

    Gary,

    in response to your comment, "You go ahead and trust the auto makers to always tell the truth. I for one don't believe it for a minute. If confronted by EPA tests all they have to say is our test came out different.":

    This goes back to the "crime and punishment" theory. Automakers know that they would pay a huge monetary fine and even WORSE, they would lose in the eye of the public if ever shown to have "lied" on an EPA MPG test. No carmaker would ever do that because of the negative consequences for their bottom line. That's why the system has worked - the punishment would be severe enough that it deters the crime.

    If you know enough about the EPA tests, you know the procedure is a checklist and a set of procedures and environmental conditions including room temperature. The procedure is well-documented and there are systems in place to make sure the tests are hunky-dory every time it is performed. Every automaker has multiple locations which are certified to perform the tests, and the cannot "cheat" unless they want to suffer the consequences.

    It's not a naive "blind trust" in the EPA as you have indicated, but instead it is an understanding of the test system.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Again you ignore the driver was the majority of GASSERS (owners)are not getting the bold EPA numbers, yet wax on endlessly about semantical difference that are not germane to the issue/s.

    The diesel EPA of 42/49 (for example) is pretty much in the ball park. I have for example (how I drive) have not gotten under 44 mpg.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I'm not ignoring anything. Of course almost all cars (regardless of engine type) are not getting the EPA numbers because the

    OLD EPA TEST WAS FLAWED...
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Again going back to YOUR posts, using YOUR logic, what is flawed about a very repeatable procedure?? Looking forward what "FLAW/s" did they identify to make the new procedures... FLAWLESS? Other than what I have said and YOU have NOT acknowledged is its relevance in the real world? So for example if a Prius is rated to get 60/50, and the average between the two numbers being 55 mpg and it gets 48 mpg REAL WORLD, so what? Pardon me for putting it this way, but a pig in formal wear is still a pig.

    Contrast that with TDI of 42/49 average 45.5 mpg and it gets 48 in the REAL WORLD!!??

    Actually the thing that is exciting about the TDI is it reality is in the ball park with the so called "laboratory conditions". The other issue is with the new EPA figures (procedure to get those figures) will further dilute the perception that gassers are much more consumptive than diesels, specifically 30-44-75%.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Not going to get into the flaws of the EPA test on this forum - wrong topic. Find the "MPG figures to drop with new EPA test" and read away....
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Not a problem, ADVANTAGE: DIESEL ! :)
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    Diesel news. Ha

    No diesel news for months.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I was and still am a proponent for Hybrid vehicles. Many here know me as such.

    However, having driven a Prius for over a month, and getting at best 44.7 mpg......

    and now driving a TDI diesel, and getting 47.5 mpg on my last tank ....

    gosh... OK, They are both great.

    My only problem is that Pruis mpg figures seem much too high, much too hopeful ... did they get those figures inside a closed course stadium, with all the seats and nav torn out ? Or on a slight downhill course ?

    I have no idea why real life VW TDI mpg figures are so close to EPa or manufacturers' figures.

    Do they test diesels differently ? or Hybrids ?
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