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OTOH Toyota, Honda, Ford and now GM have dual strategy of either hybrids or diesels - maybe equally. They have money invested in both routes equally.
It will be a good battle. Hybrids have a big headstart here in the US. Diesels have to do the same education of the public that hybrids have done over the last 5 years.
I would agree from a marketing perspective. When you add in the perspective that the diesels are 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet vs hybrids at less than one half of one percent, I think those figures speak for themselves.
As for me, I really didn't need a 2x4 to the center of the forehead on the consequences of unleaded regular 31 mpg vs diesel of 49 mpg or 58% better than unleaded regular.
In citing this statitistic you mislead - unless you qualify it by saying that 90% of the diesel registered here are heavy duty truck which are meant primarily for heavy work loads. These are not what one would normally consider a 'passenger vehicle'. Yes obviously they do carry passengers but to be more precise...
Light diesel vehicles are a minute specialized niche in NA at the moment.
..."Light diesel vehicles are a minute specialized niche in NA at the moment."...
At 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet, one can make a case for this feeling. So hybrids at one half of one percent, of which diesels are 4.6 to 5.8x greater, make hybrids even less than a minute specialized niche?:)
Certainly.
It's because their NOx and PM levels don't even meet minimum criteria, which is well beyond a basic gas vehicle and significantly dirtier than the SULEV emission rating.
JOHN
Here's the hype:
..."drop in the amount of miles driven annually in the United States in 2005, THE FIRST DROP IN 25 YEARS."
(ALL CAPS,BOLD my sic)
(it continues on to say)
"The average U.S.driver covered 13,657 miles, down from 13,711 miles in 2004, according to a survey released this week"...
www.mercurynews.com/news
SJMN, Saturday, 16 December 2006, The Valley, pg. 1b, "Bad tidings at the pump."
MY TAKE:
REAL telling how they USED BIG NUMBA'S like 13,711 and 13,657 and left out it was - 54 miles !!!???? I bet if you asked folks the %'s, most folks would freak at the BIG NUMBA'S. .0039384 percent.
WOO HOO! Average of minus -54 miles per YEAR less!!! .0039384 % LESS !!!! -4.5 miles less per mo.
And all the so called bad guys supplying us (IMPORTED light sweet crude) are quaking on their prayer rugs, because of the loss!!??? Making even the Venuezulian's President do a double sign ++ !!?? As it said in my headline post 1.08 gal saved for a TDI!!! You gasser types from to 2.16- 3.6 gals.
Diesels are still really nice...and add to that the fact that one can extend or blend your Diesel#2 with a small amount of Vegetable oil, either waste or straight.
About 25% max of SVO or WVO...but I would do only 10%..but that helps lower consumption...good for the world.....
Everytime one drives a gasser , it is like one dumping a 20 lbs bag of charcoal on the road every 20 miles anyways...
So please do not insult any other vehicle , including diesels, when one should look at how many bags of charcoal one dumps ?!!!!
BTW, one can also run biodiesel in diesel cars...no need for modifications, and it is a renewable resource...!!
Predicting how you will twist what I say has become quite a challenge. This was a very good example.
I mentioned "basic gas vehicle" and "SULEV" seperately because they are not the same. You attempted to make people believe they were.
In reality, most of the basic gas vehicles, for example a Corolla, easily achieves the ULEV emission rating. That's a level cleaner than LEV, which is a level cleaner than "50 state emission". SULEV is cleaner than all of them, 3 levels above "50 state emission".
The fact that an upcoming diesel will achieve the "50 state emission" rating is nothing to be proud of. LEV, ULEV, and SULEV are all better. PZEV is a step above them all... which is what some of the hybrids deliver.
Minimum criteria is just barely enough to allow sales, but very much still dirtier than the rest of the competition. NOx and PM levels are very disappointing without the expensive cleansing automakers are choosing not to include still. If they did, diesel would indeed be much cleaner, but the vehicle price would not be competitive then.
JOHN
Indeed the "64,000 dollar questions" would be what %'s of those each of those fleets would have statistical correlations. Interestingly enough, if an average SUV gets 15 mpg and the average mpg of the fleet is 27 mpg, the expenditure is 44% MORE!!! Further, 12% of the vehicle fleet being SUV has done nothing in that regard either. I would go on to further note, that CA state since it has exempted both gasser/hybrids and passenger diesels from mandated smog only checks, indeed probably feels the same (negative declaration).
Hmmm. Let us not forget that gassers, including your precious Prius dump lots of unburned HC into the air whereas a diesel emits no unburned HC. A Prius dumps more than three times more CO into the than does a VW 1.9L TDI.
Now for those of us who have done our homework, Bluetec, which VW has adopted reduces NOx by 90%. That means NOx emissions equal to or less than those of the Prius. And as to PM, add the self-cleaning filter and so much for that gripe.
EPA is in the process of modifying testing to reflect real world driving. According to several articles I have read, hybrids will really get hammered and their numbers will go down significantly.
As to cleaning up diesels, no one knows how much the manufacturers will charge extra for the new emissions systems. So until we have a dollar and cents figure, you cannot pass off your assumption as truth about how competitive a diesel will be.
90% of extremely dirty is indeed a great improvement... but still not enough to achieve a SULEV emission rating.
.
> no one knows how much the manufacturers will charge extra for the new emissions systems.
True, but they have already stated the production cost. It's about $1,500.
JOHN
Need some reality checks here. Given that it has taken oem's (such as Toyota) almost a generation (30-33 years) to achieve SULEV, Pzev status,' since the mandated switch to unleaded regular in the late 70's. I think giving oems few years for the diesel side due to the mid year 2006 switch to ULSD (CA mandated only) might be demanding diesel to be a magic elixir. Given the history of the regular to unleaded regular process, indeed diesel is WAY far ahead of the regular to unleaded regular process.
Yes,, there has always been the so called visible smoke coming out of diesel engined vehicles....
but let us not forget the tons of pollutants that gasser vehicles dump out, even though all that Carbon dioxide may be invisible to your eye. I think recent TIME magazine put it bluntly "" it is like throwing out a bag of charcoal for eveery 25 miles you drive on the freeway...."
OK, maybe for diesel engines, it is like throwing out a 25 lbs of charcoal for every 43 miles we drive on the freeway.......
do not forget, diesel engines last longer...and thus use less resources during its lifetime, compared to need to salvage a gasser vehicle after every 150,000 to 190,000 miles.....
Diesel vehicles routinely last over 200,000 miles....most may even go for 300,000 plus miles....
Not a throw away vehicle like a Prius , with all its batteries, weaker gasser engine, and thinner .. less sturdy construction, relatively speaking....
By the way, diesels need no modifications to run biodiesel...which is a renewable resource ( comes from soybeans, peanut oil, canola , corn , algae, etc..)
Good for the environment, eh ?
NOx emissions equivalent to or better than your Prius. Diesels engines do not dump unburned HC into the air and emit one-third less CO than your precious Prius does. And that is too dirty. Using your reckoning, the Prius is a terrible polluter.
As to cost, it is not $1500 as you claim. There are no published figures. Also, diesels will be eligible for tax credits exceeding $3000 that no longer exist or have been significantly reduced for the hybrids. And as to cost, a TCH cost several thousand dollars more than a non-hybrid Camry yet, they are selling well. So the cost of technology argument is useless here. Look at the Highlander hybrid. Gets poorer FE in 4X2 form than my Jeep Liberty CRD on the open road and yet costs more than the Jeep.
To address the extra cost, I also do not understand why he continues to deny the extra cost, and @ the 6 year, probable cinderella/cinderfella 3-6k battery/batteries surprise. Back in 2004 I needed a COMMUTE car and the cost of a Honda Civic was 12,564, Civic Hybrid was 20,000 and the Prius was 25,000 with a 6 month wait. Diesels to stay on nexus was 18-19k. If he can or has sources for at invoice or less Prius Hybrids, I am sure a hybrid thread (not here obviously) would be appreciative.
It's about $1300 difference vs a similarly equipped 4c and $500 difference vs a similarly equipped V6.
Please....
Where have you been for the last 3 years? Are you back on the battery issue that was put to death months ago?
Warranties are how long?
Now what was your comment?
Actually the long term comment was expressed in a past post, diesel 416,000 miles vs hybrid 416,000 miles.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/12/priius_epa.html
In the article, it states how Toyota technicians try to explain away the poor showing with nonsense. Toyota knows how to train their technical people well.
Toyota claimed the little hybrid would get 60 miles per gallon in city traffic, not just the 45 many consumers were experiencing."...
..."Now it turns out that most of the hybrid owners questioning Toyota's mileage claims for the Prius were right on target while Toyota was wrong, at least according to the Environmental Protection Agency's new mileage estimates....
The facts seem to be that the Prius gets 45 miles to a gallon on average in the city. That is the new word according to the EPA."...
Might be one reason why the Edmunds.com diesel vs hybrid thread was CLOSED!!
And here's something you probably did not know: that "Consumer Affairs" site is FAMOUS for posting anti-hybrid stories. I have e-mailed them several times about their anti-hybrid bias and they have never answered me.
The new EPA tests are going to lower a LOT of EPA MPG "ESTIMATES" on a LOT of cars. But you know what? Not one single car on the road will actually GET lower MPG than before the new tests.
Um, ACTUALLY, neither Toyota nor the EPA was ever WRONG.
The Prius ACTUALLY GOT 60 MPG ON THE OLD EPA TEST. That was not incorrect. That was the result.
What was incorrect is that the EPA TEST ITSELF was flawed. Not the hybrid technology, not Toyota, not the EPA's reporting of the 60 MPG.
Just the TEST.
Every Prius could STILL TODAY get 60 MPG on the OLD FLAWED test.
Be sensible, people.
Hybrid buses lowest GHG emissions
BMW diesels in USA 2008
Bring it here already.
John
And here's something you probably did not know: that "Consumer Affairs" site is FAMOUS for posting anti-hybrid stories. I have e-mailed them several times about their anti-hybrid bias and they have never answered me.
The new EPA tests are going to lower a LOT of EPA MPG "ESTIMATES" on a LOT of cars. But you know what? Not one single car on the road will actually GET lower MPG than before the new tests"
Yeah the same with regulators as it applies to diesels. It has literally been that way for decades, indeed going on 2 generations that I know.
Again you are correct the EPA tested mileage for GASSERS will go down. (97% of the vehicle population on up) a Prius rated at 60/50 city highway will still get 42/48. Like for like, gassers are inherently more consumptive of a gal of gas as compared to a diesels consumption a gal of diesel.
This is one of the major benefits of the diesel. Nothing new here. But then again you know that. My TDI epa rated at 42/49 will still get between 44-62 mpg. In a plain jane normal commute it will still get 47-52 mpg.
maybe we'll actually see an article in the press or on edmunds.com pointing out how the TDI mpg doesn't decrease with the new EPA test! (i don't think the new EPA #s are available yet for TDIs, but I'm on the edge of my seat - the suspense is incredible!)
(go ahead and relax; sit back in that chair, lean back, take a few deep breaths)
PS Here is a good new PDF from the EPA with some good info in there:
EPA Report
Here is a telling comment from the report:
The impact on hybrid vehicles will be significantly greater for city fuel economy, averaging a 22% reduction. However, the reduction in highway fuel economy will be similar, but toward the higher end of the range as for conventional gasoline-fueled vehicles. The impacts of the 5-cycle formulae on the single diesel vehicle in the database are very similar to those for conventional gasoline fueled vehicles.
That means the one diesel vehicle did not "overperform" as some of the diesel fans might have hoped.
How can you be so sure of that? I am no fan of CR and would take what they say with a grain of salt. However the EPA is no better. I got nothing but rhetorical crap when I contacted the EPA concerning the tests. They will not disclose what cars they have tested. Only that they test ABOUT 15% of the cars. That leaves it to the honesty of the manufacturers testing the cars. When you consider the sizable amount charged for cars going over the CAFE numbers it is not inconceivable that a manufacturer would fudge a little to make their car look better than the other guys.
I have not read where a lot of TDI owners are complaining of the MPG they are getting. Most are getting over the current EPA estimates by 10-15%. So why do you think the tests will impact the diesels as much as the gas cars? The bottom line is these tests are being updated because the hybrids are so far off from the EPA estimates. Thus hybrid owners are complaining, and rightly so.
Indeed it would be a no brainer to select a Honda Accord diesel vs the gasser (for my .02 cents)
Umm, because the Dec 2006 EPA pdf I posted SAYS the one diesel car already tested under the new procedure was similar to the other gas cars.
IN THE REAL WORLD. !! ??
Why do you ignore or gloss over this? Further if one reads ANY new car sticker, it CLEARLY gives the RANGE. So to my way of thinking, no real need to change.
So to tell you the truth, I was NOT one of those Prius hybrid owners who complained.
Welcome to the world of EPA double speak. What does that mean? NOTHING at all. Or are they saying the one diesel car got the same mileage as the gas cars tested? I think the only place you will see much difference is in the Hybrids.
Your total belief in the EPA system is commendable if not naive. Much of what we live with on a day to day basis is certified something or another. Many times proven not to be what it says. You go ahead and trust the auto makers to always tell the truth. I for one don't believe it for a minute. If confronted by EPA tests all they have to say is our test came out different. Just like my last smog check at two CA approved smog stations. One said bad one said good. Just cost me an extra 50 bucks for the one that was screwed up.
2003 Jetta TDI
city mpg 42
35-49 in the city
highway mpg 49
41 and 57 on the highway
2004 Honda Civic
city mpg 29
24 and 34 in the city
highway mpg 38
32 and 44 on the highway
In response to your post #1432:
The hybrids and/or the Prius complainers were not "the reason for the new EPA tests" at all. What they were is the catalyst for the review. Everyone knew the EPA tests were bogus a long time ago. It took a car which could run on BATTERY POWER for a long time during the EPA city test to REALLY put the final nail in the EPA test coffin and cause them to review the procedure.
Gary,
in response to your comment, "You go ahead and trust the auto makers to always tell the truth. I for one don't believe it for a minute. If confronted by EPA tests all they have to say is our test came out different.":
This goes back to the "crime and punishment" theory. Automakers know that they would pay a huge monetary fine and even WORSE, they would lose in the eye of the public if ever shown to have "lied" on an EPA MPG test. No carmaker would ever do that because of the negative consequences for their bottom line. That's why the system has worked - the punishment would be severe enough that it deters the crime.
If you know enough about the EPA tests, you know the procedure is a checklist and a set of procedures and environmental conditions including room temperature. The procedure is well-documented and there are systems in place to make sure the tests are hunky-dory every time it is performed. Every automaker has multiple locations which are certified to perform the tests, and the cannot "cheat" unless they want to suffer the consequences.
It's not a naive "blind trust" in the EPA as you have indicated, but instead it is an understanding of the test system.
The diesel EPA of 42/49 (for example) is pretty much in the ball park. I have for example (how I drive) have not gotten under 44 mpg.
OLD EPA TEST WAS FLAWED...
Contrast that with TDI of 42/49 average 45.5 mpg and it gets 48 in the REAL WORLD!!??
Actually the thing that is exciting about the TDI is it reality is in the ball park with the so called "laboratory conditions". The other issue is with the new EPA figures (procedure to get those figures) will further dilute the perception that gassers are much more consumptive than diesels, specifically 30-44-75%.
No diesel news for months.
However, having driven a Prius for over a month, and getting at best 44.7 mpg......
and now driving a TDI diesel, and getting 47.5 mpg on my last tank ....
gosh... OK, They are both great.
My only problem is that Pruis mpg figures seem much too high, much too hopeful ... did they get those figures inside a closed course stadium, with all the seats and nav torn out ? Or on a slight downhill course ?
I have no idea why real life VW TDI mpg figures are so close to EPa or manufacturers' figures.
Do they test diesels differently ? or Hybrids ?