I have spent a few minutes trying to find a hard cost for AdBlue but was unable to find any hard price. As to usage for Euro V emissions spec about 4% of fuel usage and for Euro VI emission spec, about 6% of fuel usage. I have no idea how this translates into domestic emissions usage as they are more strict than those in the EU.
An interesting note though, AdBlue is not taxed when purchased.
> for Euro VI emission spec, about 6% of fuel usage
15,000 miles at 45 MPG (which is fairly generous for an AUTOMATIC diesel in MIXED driving) would use 333.3 gallons. 6 percent of that is 20 gallons of AdBlue.
How much trunk are you will to sacrifice for AdBlue capacity?
How much trunk are you will to sacrifice for AdBlue capacity?
Probably no trunk space will be sacrificed. If you were to remove the battery pack in a Prius, how much more trunk space would you gain?
As to being generous with the fuel economy, no. I think you are right on the money with the FE a diesel will get. If you are claiming this to be real world FE, why buy a Prius? The majority of Prius drivers are getting 45 MPG and that includes the EPA who gets that same FE with the Prius using the new mileage testing method.
As far as I know, the AdBlue additive is not available in the U.S. yet. The Bluetec diesels that Daimler will sell have the SCR catalytic converter only, but no AdBlue until MY 2008 or MY 2009.
..."As to being generous with the fuel economy, no. I think you are right on the money with the FE a diesel will get. If you are claiming this to be real world FE, why buy a Prius? The majority of Prius drivers are getting 45 MPG and that includes the EPA who gets that same FE with the Prius using the new mileage testing method. "...
I would also agree. While it is wonderful, the Prius is ONE of the mileage leaders, just a step down (cost wise) to examples like Civic and its sister model Corrolla, etc etc. the extra costs are essentially not recoverable. From a operational MPG point of view, a DIESEL Civic, Corrolla, etc would indeed be formidable.
I asked for a quantity. Your reply wasn't an answer. Where exactly would they put it (as well as an access hole for filling)? Even just half, 10 gallons, takes up a decent amount of space.
. > The majority of Prius drivers are getting 45 MPG
The GH database lists a 48 average, not 45. And the FE gov site lists an average of 47.5. Both are real-world collections of MPG data for the HSD model.
The new model for 2009 will have a smaller (yet greater capacity) battery-pack and will deliver even higher MPG.
"The GH database lists a 48 average, not 45. And the FE gov site lists an average of 47.5. Both are real-world collections of MPG data for the HSD model."
I would have no problem with what you are saying. The TDI gets app 48/49 overall. I havent looked at the updates for a little while, so anyone can go to that site and have a peak.
48 average for the Prius is a little ways from EPA of 60/50 mpg (-12,-2) and -7 from its midpoint of 55 mpg.
For the TDI, 48/49 average is right at the high side of 42/49 EPA. From a midpoint of 45.5 it is PLUS 3.5. (2003)
> 48 average for the Prius is a little ways from EPA of 60/50 mpg.
Talking about a sad attempt to mislead!
That 48 is REAL-WORLD data.
The 60/51 is just an IDEAL-CONDITION estimate.
They have virtually nothing in commmon. One is only warm weather driving, without A/C, never faster than 60 MPH, and slow acceleration, using just non-blended summer-formula gas. That's not even remotely close to what owners actual encounter.
Let's see REAL-WORLD data. Only sighting EPA estimates isn't constructive.
How much trunk are you will to sacrifice for AdBlue capacity?
This is your question from your post. If you would write your question properly then I might be able to answer it.
From a later post of yours (with a properly clarified and written question), the filler will probably be in the trunk off to one side. The tank will probably be underneath the front part of the trunk floor or under the rear seat
The data indicates and I have known that 48 for the Prius IS REAL WORLD!! Indeed I took you at your word when you reported 48 mpg IS/WAS REAL WORLD!!!
Just as my report of 48/49 for the TDI IS REAL WORLD. The report of EPA IS/WAS/STILL IS EPA and posted for transparency and because some posters of late, like to repeat endlessly, saying the data was not posted.
So for some reason, if I was not clear in posting: REAL WORLD Prius = REAL WORLD TDI !!??
So deductively, the data indicates the TDI ACTUALLY achieves in the real world, the EPA mpg rating, the so called advertised EPA IDEA-CONDITION,
whereas
the Prius hypes better its IDEALIZED EPA MPG RATINGS WHILE it is NOT congruent with it at a real world 48?
However my real question would be: does the Prius have to be drivne gingerly to get an overall of 48?
I can tell you over 85,000 miles driving the TDI, the majority of the time (while I drive it the way a diesel should be driven) it is clearly not driven gingerly.
While I sort of know the answer for the Prius, and for sure the TDI, in that I have driven the Prius for app 250-300 miles, I clearly do not have 85,000 miles on it like I do the TDI? What are YOUR experiences? Or opinions?
I also SWAG that if I drive the TDI in the anal retentive manner as described on many Prius web sites (how to get MAX miles) the TDI mpg will skyrocket. Indeed without really trying I have gotten 62 mpg. So on the other hand if I drove the Prius like I do the TDI would I expect even lower or higher than 48?
See I told you this issue has not been sound bite able.
If you want to see Real World, come to the midwest. I average 75-85 mph on the highway, and get passed all day long. I was doing 85mph outside of Detroit (I-96), and got passed by multiple cars in a 20 mile stretch.
I see a Prius's doing 60mph in the slow lane, and it looks like a suicide mission. It seems dangerous getting passed by cars doing 25+ mph faster, and people get annoyed with a Prius bottling up the roads. I see people give Prius drivers attitude all the time, and drive aggressively when around one.
I know a Prius is a quality built car, but I question the reliability of any hybrid system doing speeds in excess of 75 mph. IMHO thats the reason you're not seeing more hybrids on the road. People don't want to slow down on the highway. Saving the environment & gas mileage get thrown out the window if you're running late for work.
I think the thing that often is ignored, goes unsaid is the VW TDI (in comparison to the Prius for example) is really designed for the autobahn. as a matter of fact I just assume most folks know this. This of course is not a good assumption. It is literally just another day, just another short trip to cruise one at 100-118 mph. One question would be how would the Prius hold up side by side? Another for our discussion what would be the mileage?
I did one trip in the Rocky's of 584 miles with the AC going in 6.5 hrs. including a 10-15 min nature break. When I fueled it took on 12.1 gal for 48.26 mpg. This obvious knocked a chip off the overall average of 50 mpg.
The views and scenery were simply AWE inspiring!!!
> However my real question would be: does the Prius have to be drivne gingerly to get an overall of 48?
What part of REAL-WORLD requires clarification still?
I'm flying down the highway at the SAME SPEED as everyone else (whatever the speed limit is) and my acceleration from stoplights is always BRISK. That's quite the opposite of the EPA estimate testing procedures. My lifetime average is 48.5 MPG after 67,105 miles using E10 for fuel.
"I'm flying down the highway at the SAME SPEED as everyone else and my acceleration from stoplights is always BRISK. My lifetime average is 48.5 MPG after 67,105 miles using E10 for fuel."
So is that 48.26 mpg at 584 miles in 6.5 hours with 10-15 min nature break and 12.1 gal?
Given your above quote, my mpg avg would be more like 52-58. So thank you for another data point.
There are several folks on the TDI club that report something like 66 mpg. I really dont doubt I could get that but in comparison watching paint dry would seem like blood sport. So I have to confess I dont make the effort.
> Given your above quote, my mpg avg would be more like 52-58. So thank you for another data point.
Data Point? Are you really that manipulative?
LONG-TERM data averages are the only true measure. Heck, a Prius driven in the right way will deliver dramatically higher MPG, as proven in the marathon last year.
You mentioned 85,000 miles of driving, yet didn't provide the average for it. Instead, all we got was 584 mile sample. Why?
Pretty simple given the totality of my post. May I suggest a re-read MSG #1500. Things taken out of context of course can be seriously manipulated, just as you said and wanting apparently to do. Besides I have already stated a 48/49 average. "For the TDI, 48/49 average is right at the high side of 42/49 EPA. From a midpoint of 45.5 it is PLUS 3.5. (2003)"
So I am asking what mpg would you (Prius) get under similar conditions (584). If you don't wish to answer, just say so. or if it is too complicated an exercise that would serious damage your delicate position, I am ok with that.
Why did you bring up EPA at all then? Please explain the purpose of that. Sticking only to REAL-WORLD is far more constructive.
As for your special-circumstance question, you're darn right I'm not going to answer. I don't have that data available... because it is far from common experience, something a great majority of owners will never encounter.
Why so defensive about EPA? It was applied across the board (to the TDI ALSO)?
I think I and also the majority of diesel owners understand why you would and do refuse to answer. The silence speaks volumes, more than any denial or defense or even attack. LESS is a lot more, eh? OR is LESS REALLY LESS!!
But really I do think hybrid has its place!! 48 after all is better than most gassers. It is certainly better than the 38-42 I get with my Civic gasser!! Under the same condtions I would swag I would get 48-51 also. But in keeping with the topic, this IS a diesel thread and NOT a diesel vs hybrid thread. So you may want to start ANOTHER one. But in all fairness the diesel vs hybrid thread WAS archived.
> You really do not know how to ask a question. > > The AdBlue tank size is 18L (4.75 gallons)for an E Class.
Actually, I did a wonderful job. It got you to reveal the actual information rather than sticking to a hyphthetical. Thanks!
At a size of only 4.75 gallons, refills most definitely will not be every 15,000 miles. Instead, it will be much more often than those eluding convenience care to admit.
As for your special-circumstance question, you're darn right I'm not going to answer. I don't have that data available... because it is far from common experience, something a great majority of owners will never encounter.
So does this mean you are a real world driver getting real world gas mileage, or are you not?
At least give us and educated guess or say you don’t know. It’s just common courtesy.
Actually, I did a wonderful job. It got you to reveal the actual information rather than sticking to a hyphthetical. Thanks!
Is it not nice when you work with real information instead of your hypothetical trash?
The EURO VI emission spec is still being formulated and is an "on paper spec" as of November 2006. So that 6% usage figure maybe hypothetical as well and in fact might end up being less as BlueTec technology continues to mature.
The 4.75 gallon AdBlue tank is for an EU spec E320 CDI and not for one that will be sold here in the U.S. And since U.S. emissions regs are different from the EU regs, no one knows how much or little AdBlue will be actually used over a given distance. So your supposition as to how often the AdBlue tank will need to be filled is like most of your suppositions, way off base and lacking in substantiation.
Just like with the Prius, FE depends on how it is driven.
nothing against the prius....but darn it ..I drove the thing for some months...and only got 45.3 mpg max real world driving.. which like Ruking pointed out, is Outside of what Toyota claims . This is a fact...pure and simple.
Now, with the exact same home , commute, errands , family members, etc ... in the VW TDi diesel, and I get 46 mpg.... which is well within EPA and company specs....
toyota pulled a fast one in terms of mileage on the automotive public....IMHO> .
By the way, the diesel also can run on biodiesel, which is a renewable resource !! Icing on the cake.
That is why, after shopping for Prius's for over 2 years, I ended up with a VW TDI....and love it !!
The Prius got 43MPG coming home from the dealer on a flat bridge over the Hudson river. Over the next 6 months mileage rose to a consistent 50.2 MPG; after a dealer oil change mileage dropped and is now 48.4MPG. No special driving techniques.
The VW handles great, accelerates great, and with 80,000 miles scares me penniless. The Dealer absorbed changing a $2 rubber O ring that would have cost $400+ to change because of the labor of disassembling parts to get to it.
Would I buy a Diesel VW or Mercedes to save gas? Ha Ha Ha
I've answered this for you numberous times and you know the answer. If you drive the vehicle in 'anal retentive manner' - or more accurately drive it to use it's best features - then you can get the anecdotal results of one of my neighbors in VA Beach where he regularly obtains values in the 80 mpg range. He almost never drives on the highway so his minimum is 60 mpg and his Average is 64 mpg.
If your needs are to drive a mix of City/Hwy then you will attain ~48 mpg.
BTW, a small nit.
The only 'database' ( of 29 vehicles ) available on the 2003 TDI manual is the EPA wherein it shows that the average for the reporting vehicles is 47 mpg. link title
This is right in line with the CVT Prius on both larger databases ( EPA and GH ).
As noted many times both vehicles are equivalent in purely FE terms when driven a mix of City and Hwy. The Prius is far superior for city-only driving as indicated above.
nothing against the prius....but darn it ..I drove the thing for some months...and only got 45.3 mpg max real world driving.. which like Ruking pointed out, is Outside of what Toyota claims . This is a fact...pure and simple.
To be clear, Toyota has nothing to do with this. It's what the EPA mandates nothing else.
If the EPA mandated that Toyota put figures of 70 and 80 mpg on the stickers and in the specs and in the ads then that's what would have to be shown.
Your one anecdotal experience can be balanced by the one I noted just above where he Averages 64 mpg with trips regularly in the 80 mpg range. His eonditions were different than yours so your two anecdotal results are widely different.
For part of my normal 75 mi commute I often obtain 5-10 min segments of City driving in the 80-100 mpg range. However 80-85% of the time I'm on the Hwy. 48.4 mpg lifetime
I am sure this was a misquote but its kind of funny... I just sold my Ford diesel pu/// the fellow that bought it didn't know about the block heaters... or that it didn't have sparkplugs... I hope he puts "gas" in it... diesel that is.
quote- But Volkswagen has continued to sell diesel cars to the coterie of advocates who swear by them.
"I talk to owners who are extremely loyal to diesels," says Brian Cartier, Volkswagen manager at Amesbury Chevrolet Volkswagen. "The engines are bulletproof. They get far better mileage than their gasoline counterparts. They get mileage comparable to a hybrid, without having to worry about batteries."
The difference is that diesels get their best mileage during highway driving, explains Jeff Jensen, a sales consultant who specializes in the cars at Tulley Volkswagen in Nashua, N.H., where new diesels are legal. By contrast, gasoline/electric hybrid cars obtain their best fuel economy when driven around town.
"I have diesel customers who are achieving 50 miles to a gallon overall fuel economy," exceeding the estimates on the window stickers, Jensen says. "It's proven technology for that person who is looking for highway fuel economy." -end
So basically it always gets down to looking at one's needs/wants and then seeing if Prius/TDI(or even something else) best fulfills them. If one has a higher % of city, Prius is probably worth a look. If it slants more toward highway, then of course TDI probably is worth a look. So if you drive a lot on the highway per the post where your almost defensive refusal to answer about highway crusing; TDI is worth the nod.
When I considered the Prius vs TDI, it was almost: did I want a city operator that was adequate as a highway cruiser or did I want a highway cruiser that was adequate as a city operator. Since at that time the real world indicators for Prius and TDI were 45-50 and 45-50 respectively, and it was to be a 54 R/T commute (80 H/20C) and longer distance R/R highway cruiser (less than 1000 mile R/T per trip) TDI got the nod. Price difference sealed this deal.
Interesting part of the article for me is the V10 TDI SUV. It is rated to get 22 highway. If I were to consider getting an SUV nowadays, an interesting factoid is it gets .3181818 percent (32%) better mpg than my TOYOTA I6 gasser motor rated at 15 mpg. The hp and especially torque differences are HUGE!! 310 hp/55 #ft T vs 212/? #ft of T. The funny thing about Toyota 4WD vehicles is you have to look real deep to find torque ratings which is interesting for good torque is almost an essential measurement of 4WD vehicles.
Stopped by a local VW dealership on Saturday (Why? Just because.. ).. and, got a strange story about the Touareg TDI models..
The salesperson says that VW is re-badging the unsold '06 models as 2007 models. They send new VIN plates and Monroney stickers.. everything. And... of course, the MSRP is about $5K lower on the '07, comparably equipped. They actually had one, that he said had been converted.
No idea if this was true, but he didn't say anything that would make you doubt him.
Anyone hear a similar story that would back this up?
No, but it makes a certain amount of sense given the byzantine world of import regulations and politics. The key point is VW due to a host of reasons is not producing 2007 TDI's. No disrepect intended to the byzantines of course. The 2006 TDI's are being sold as 2006 in 2007 so I am thinking the same is happening for the V10. However the V10 as SUV might be coming under a slightly different set of regulations.
I think once the GVWR gets over a certain amount, then the regulations are different.. That is the only reason I can think of that they can't rebadge the Jettas.
The same salesperson said there would be no 2007 model Jetta TDIs.. He had about 6 of them on the lot, and said he sells them all at MSRP and had moved 4 of them in the last week.
I know the Jetta TDI has good resale value, but I guarantee if you trade-in that just purchased '06 model in three years, you will take the hit for having a 4-yr.old car.. That would bug me.
Well for sure!! I would factor that in my decision making process.
Indeed the biggie three: Ford, DCB (Daimler Chysler Benz or however they are currently known) GM, have absolutely seamless transition to the next model year. Indeed the Cummins V8 (motor vendors to DCB) are newly designed: BIGGER, have more hp/#ft of T, and get better mpg!! I like you will drift down to (those) dealers to have a LQQK at the 2007 offerings
On the other hand, it would be the perfect reason and timing for folks who can use the IRS section 179 regulation for the VW V10. Upshot is a 66k vehicle would be the equivalant of 33-35 k. But indeed this is NOT the norm. For the American diesels the same would also be true. So a 44k vehicle would end up penciling out at 22k.
quote- Volkswagen unveiled the cleanest ever TDI engine. First test drives demonstrate the high potential of Volkswagen technology, which consequently reduce nitrogen oxide. In the VW Jetta a new 2.0 litre Common Rail diesel engine with a nitrogen oxide reservoir catalytic converter was used, which complies to the Californian emission standard "Tier 2 / Bin 5". These requirements are considered the most stringent worldwide. The first production run of the "Clean TDI" with nitrogen oxide post-treatment system will be made during 2008 in the USA.
The central theme of the entire concept is the reduction of nitrogen oxide. The engineers in Wolfsburg reached this goal through internal development of the motor and the use of new emission post-treatment technology. The result: up to 90% less nitrogen oxide emissions (NOx).
This drastic reduction was necessary in order to comply with the "Tier 2 / Bin 5" norm, which applies to California and four other states in the north-east of America (Massachusetts, New York, Vermont and Maine). This norm limits nitrogen oxide emissions to 70 mg per mile. In order to comply with this standard, completely new emission treatment technology was necessary. Volkswagen has thus developed two systems connected to the oxidation catalytic converter and the particle filter in the exhaust system.
New NOx reservoir catalytic converter technology is currently being tested for car models below the Passat class. Nitrogen oxide is ab sorbed like a sponge, leading to a high level of efficiency. As with the particle filter, the system is regularly cleaned without the driver noticing. To do this, the engine management system changes operation modes for a few seconds...............-end
Toyota has nothing to do with this. It's what the EPA mandates nothing else.
"There you go again" Do you have proof that the EPA did the test on the Prius? It is more than likely it was one of the 85% that are tested by THE MANUFACTURER. To me that leaves room for doubt. You can have ten companies test the same car and all get different results. That leaves room for fudging on the tests.
Of the 998 Prius II owners reporting their mileage you have a variation of 42 MPG. All the way from 71.8 MPG to 29.2 MPG. The same goes for any mileage test. Was it a warm day or a cold day in Tokyo? Or maybe the test was all done in a lab on a dynamometer. Or just simulated in a computer. The bottom line is it was way off from reality in an attempt to grab the brass ring from Honda and their Insight.
I agree that this is possible to have 10 testers to find differing results but given that the tests are so well known for so long I'd be very confident that the 10 testers would all be in a narrow range of values.... e.g. City 58.5; 59.2; 60.1; 60.4; etc.
The EPA tests are mandated to be specifically done in one way.. in a lab under controlled conditions on a dyno. That's the main reason that they don't meet most current drivers' conditions. They are only off from reality because most drivers choose not to drive the manner that the EPA specifies the tests. They are perfectly valid reasons to choose not to drive in the 'EPA manner'. But if one does choose to drive that way then achieving and exceeding the EPA tests values is a snap. I do it every day.
That person in VA Beach has chosen to drive in EPA condition for the entire time he's owned his Prius so his AVERAGE is 64 mpg with several trips in the 80's.
What will be certain is that when the new values are published I will exceed them by at least 10% on an average basis and as much as 20% on a tank-by-tank basis. Nothing has changed for me. I am satisfied knowing all that I do now about the testing methodology and the vehicle that the EPA values are dead accurate.
Your latest post changes none of the issues, although I understand it is in response.
Given your description of the "why of" EPA deviance, it takes almost no adjustment from the way one drives a regular gasser to get close to or exceed the EPA on a DIESEL. But I am being redundant.
I truly have to say I am happy you get 48 mpg in a car rated for 60/50. This is truly better than one of the better/best economy cars, Honda Civic (Can also include the Toyota Corolla) of 38-42 in a 54 mile R/T commute on an EPA of 29/38.
Using the AVG between the two figures on the Prius = 55, your 48 is MINUS -12.7%
Using the AVG between the two figures on the TDI of 45.5, my 49 is PLUS 7.7%
kdhspyder -The EPA tests are mandated to be specifically done in one way.. in a lab under controlled conditions on a dyno. They are perfectly valid reasons to choose not to drive in the 'EPA manner'. But if one does choose to drive that way then achieving and exceeding the EPA tests values is a snap. I do it every day.
I do not have a lab with a dyno in it. Who does?
The only relevance to diesel news that EPA mpg and hybrids have is that hybrid mpg is going to decrease at a higher percentage than diesel mpg under the new EPA procedures. And, you don't have to use special driving techniques when driving a diesel to obtain EPA mpg, while a hybrid has to be driven using hybrid fanatic methods to even come close to EPA mpg ratings.
To be fair to kdhspyder, I personally do drive the diesel with HYPER longevity (not my characterization) in mind, given most folks retire their cars at 7.5 to 8 years and 120,000 miles. I have made no secret of keeping this to 500,000 if not 1,250,000 miles. I also drive it so called more aggressively than I would say a gasser like Honda Civic or Prius for that matter. So this is one reason why I do not drive it to get 62 mpg or more consistently or less than 44 mpg. Indeed I have 49 overall. The diesel likes to be driven ahead of its torque or power curve/peak. Peak torque comes on at app 1900 if I remember correctly. Not much is gained at revs INXS of 3800 to 4,000 rpms. LUGGING is the premature death of THIS diesel and turbo combination. So revs to 2500 cold or 3000 warmed for shifting are routinely done. This basically translates to english as: slightly more aggressively. This also drives within the turbo parameters. These rpms keep the turbo spooled and it's vanes working freely and correctly and not STUCK. It also lessens the chance of over boost on the turbo. Again you want to drive within now the turbo and diesel power bans for you now have to balance two components for longevity. In addition, I am shooting for 125,000 miles on the brake pads and 100,000-125,000 on the tires is on the glide path. I also want to go to 100,000 to 125,000 till my first wheel alignment. 150,000 to 200,000 looks do able for struts and shocks and the springs might be in need at 200,000 to 250,000 miles. I also change the oil and oil filter at 20,000 to 25,000 miles. With the advent of ULSD the oil CAN be good to go till 30,000 miles. Looking also for 400,000 to 500,000 miles on the clutch.
Since I spent app 300 or so miles in a brand new Prius I really do understand (on a 300 mile level of course) the SOTP changes necessary in driving behavior to get say a 48. I also switch off to the Civic.
If you know what the EPA lab test conditions are then you might be able to modifiy your personal driving conditions - by choice - to match the EPA conditions.
while a hybrid has to be driven using hybrid fanatic methods to even come close to EPA mpg ratings.
I agree about the diesel more easily approximating the current EPA tests as do many other gassers ( my 4 previous Camrys for example ).
But in meeting the EPA values with the Prius it's a snap as well.
To be brutally frank many people who complain about their not meeting the EPA standards have little idea what they are complaining about.
Why don't I get 60 mpg on the 2 mi trip to pick up milk or to pick up my wife at her office?
Why is my average below the EPA average of 55 mpg? OK what is the weighted average of your personal driving -between city and highway? My personal what?
Why does my fuel economy go down when it gets cold?
Why don't I get 60 mpg on the 2 mi trip to pick up milk or to pick up my wife at her office?
You and I know that is the toughest trip to get decent mileage. However when the average buyer is looking for a car to get better mileage in city driving which that usually is, they look at the EPA city mileage rating. If they do not have an honest salesman, such as yourself, they may be led to believe they will get 60 MPG on short trips to the store. They are disgruntled when it is more like 35 MPG. They can get that with CorVic. Or better yet a Jetta TDI.
Speaking of which I am excited about the new VW diesel that is going to be 50 state saleable in 2008.
Comments
An interesting note though, AdBlue is not taxed when purchased.
If not STOP NOW!
If so is there some interest for an example?
15,000 miles at 45 MPG (which is fairly generous for an AUTOMATIC diesel in MIXED driving) would use 333.3 gallons. 6 percent of that is 20 gallons of AdBlue.
How much trunk are you will to sacrifice for AdBlue capacity?
JOHN
How much trunk are you will to sacrifice for AdBlue capacity?
Probably no trunk space will be sacrificed. If you were to remove the battery pack in a Prius, how much more trunk space would you gain?
As to being generous with the fuel economy, no. I think you are right on the money with the FE a diesel will get. If you are claiming this to be real world FE, why buy a Prius? The majority of Prius drivers are getting 45 MPG and that includes the EPA who gets that same FE with the Prius using the new mileage testing method.
I would also agree. While it is wonderful, the Prius is ONE of the mileage leaders, just a step down (cost wise) to examples like Civic and its sister model Corrolla, etc etc. the extra costs are essentially not recoverable. From a operational MPG point of view, a DIESEL Civic, Corrolla, etc would indeed be formidable.
I asked for a quantity. Your reply wasn't an answer. Where exactly would they put it (as well as an access hole for filling)? Even just half, 10 gallons, takes up a decent amount of space.
.
> The majority of Prius drivers are getting 45 MPG
The GH database lists a 48 average, not 45. And the FE gov site lists an average of 47.5. Both are real-world collections of MPG data for the HSD model.
The new model for 2009 will have a smaller (yet greater capacity) battery-pack and will deliver even higher MPG.
JOHN
I would have no problem with what you are saying. The TDI gets app 48/49 overall. I havent looked at the updates for a little while, so anyone can go to that site and have a peak.
48 average for the Prius is a little ways from EPA of 60/50 mpg (-12,-2) and -7 from its midpoint of 55 mpg.
For the TDI, 48/49 average is right at the high side of 42/49 EPA. From a midpoint of 45.5 it is PLUS 3.5. (2003)
Talking about a sad attempt to mislead!
That 48 is REAL-WORLD data.
The 60/51 is just an IDEAL-CONDITION estimate.
They have virtually nothing in commmon. One is only warm weather driving, without A/C, never faster than 60 MPH, and slow acceleration, using just non-blended summer-formula gas. That's not even remotely close to what owners actual encounter.
Let's see REAL-WORLD data. Only sighting EPA estimates isn't constructive.
JOHN
This is your question from your post. If you would write your question properly then I might be able to answer it.
From a later post of yours (with a properly clarified and written question), the filler will probably be in the trunk off to one side. The tank will probably be underneath the front part of the trunk floor or under the rear seat
Just as my report of 48/49 for the TDI IS REAL WORLD. The report of EPA IS/WAS/STILL IS EPA and posted for transparency and because some posters of late, like to repeat endlessly, saying the data was not posted.
So for some reason, if I was not clear in posting: REAL WORLD Prius = REAL WORLD TDI !!??
So deductively, the data indicates the TDI ACTUALLY achieves in the real world, the EPA mpg rating, the so called advertised EPA IDEA-CONDITION,
whereas
the Prius hypes better its IDEALIZED EPA MPG RATINGS WHILE it is NOT congruent with it at a real world 48?
However my real question would be: does the Prius have to be drivne gingerly to get an overall of 48?
I can tell you over 85,000 miles driving the TDI, the majority of the time (while I drive it the way a diesel should be driven) it is clearly not driven gingerly.
While I sort of know the answer for the Prius, and for sure the TDI, in that I have driven the Prius for app 250-300 miles, I clearly do not have 85,000 miles on it like I do the TDI? What are YOUR experiences? Or opinions?
I also SWAG that if I drive the TDI in the anal retentive manner as described on many Prius web sites (how to get MAX miles) the TDI mpg will skyrocket. Indeed without really trying I have gotten 62 mpg. So on the other hand if I drove the Prius like I do the TDI would I expect even lower or higher than 48?
See I told you this issue has not been sound bite able.
I see a Prius's doing 60mph in the slow lane, and it looks like a suicide mission. It seems dangerous getting passed by cars doing 25+ mph faster, and people get annoyed with a Prius bottling up the roads. I see people give Prius drivers attitude all the time, and drive aggressively when around one.
I know a Prius is a quality built car, but I question the reliability of any hybrid system doing speeds in excess of 75 mph. IMHO thats the reason you're not seeing more hybrids on the road. People don't want to slow down on the highway. Saving the environment & gas mileage get thrown out the window if you're running late for work.
I did one trip in the Rocky's of 584 miles with the AC going in 6.5 hrs. including a 10-15 min nature break. When I fueled it took on 12.1 gal for 48.26 mpg. This obvious knocked a chip off the overall average of 50 mpg.
The views and scenery were simply AWE inspiring!!!
I find it intriguing that you still did not answer the question.
How much?
In other words, what GALLON capacity?
Remember, the discussion is about AdBlue change frequency. Distance between refills is what brought about the question.
JOHN
What part of REAL-WORLD requires clarification still?
I'm flying down the highway at the SAME SPEED as everyone else (whatever the speed limit is) and my acceleration from stoplights is always BRISK. That's quite the opposite of the EPA estimate testing procedures. My lifetime average is 48.5 MPG after 67,105 miles using E10 for fuel.
JOHN
So is that 48.26 mpg at 584 miles in 6.5 hours with 10-15 min nature break and 12.1 gal?
Given your above quote, my mpg avg would be more like 52-58. So thank you for another data point.
There are several folks on the TDI club that report something like 66 mpg. I really dont doubt I could get that but in comparison watching paint dry would seem like blood sport. So I have to confess I dont make the effort.
Data Point? Are you really that manipulative?
LONG-TERM data averages are the only true measure. Heck, a Prius driven in the right way will deliver dramatically higher MPG, as proven in the marathon last year.
You mentioned 85,000 miles of driving, yet didn't provide the average for it. Instead, all we got was 584 mile sample. Why?
JOHN
The AdBlue tank size is 18L (4.75 gallons)for an E Class.
So I am asking what mpg would you (Prius) get under similar conditions (584). If you don't wish to answer, just say so. or if it is too complicated an exercise that would serious damage your delicate position, I am ok with that.
As for your special-circumstance question, you're darn right I'm not going to answer. I don't have that data available... because it is far from common experience, something a great majority of owners will never encounter.
JOHN
I think I and also the majority of diesel owners understand why you would and do refuse to answer. The silence speaks volumes, more than any denial or defense or even attack. LESS is a lot more, eh? OR is LESS REALLY LESS!!
But really I do think hybrid has its place!! 48 after all is better than most gassers. It is certainly better than the 38-42 I get with my Civic gasser!! Under the same condtions I would swag I would get 48-51 also. But in keeping with the topic, this IS a diesel thread and NOT a diesel vs hybrid thread. So you may want to start ANOTHER one. But in all fairness the diesel vs hybrid thread WAS archived.
>
> The AdBlue tank size is 18L (4.75 gallons)for an E Class.
Actually, I did a wonderful job. It got you to reveal the actual information rather than sticking to a hyphthetical. Thanks!
At a size of only 4.75 gallons, refills most definitely will not be every 15,000 miles. Instead, it will be much more often than those eluding convenience care to admit.
JOHN
So does this mean you are a real world driver getting real world gas mileage, or are you not?
At least give us and educated guess or say you don’t know. It’s just common courtesy.
I would give-up 10% trunk space for adblue.
Is it not nice when you work with real information instead of your hypothetical trash?
The EURO VI emission spec is still being formulated and is an "on paper spec" as of November 2006. So that 6% usage figure maybe hypothetical as well and in fact might end up being less as BlueTec technology continues to mature.
The 4.75 gallon AdBlue tank is for an EU spec E320 CDI and not for one that will be sold here in the U.S. And since U.S. emissions regs are different from the EU regs, no one knows how much or little AdBlue will be actually used over a given distance. So your supposition as to how often the AdBlue tank will need to be filled is like most of your suppositions, way off base and lacking in substantiation.
Just like with the Prius, FE depends on how it is driven.
nothing against the prius....but darn it ..I drove the thing for some months...and only got 45.3 mpg max real world driving.. which like Ruking pointed out, is Outside of what Toyota claims . This is a fact...pure and simple.
Now, with the exact same home , commute, errands , family members, etc ... in the VW TDi diesel, and I get 46 mpg....
which is well within EPA and company specs....
toyota pulled a fast one in terms of mileage on the automotive public....IMHO> .
By the way, the diesel also can run on biodiesel, which is a renewable resource !! Icing on the cake.
That is why, after shopping for Prius's for over 2 years, I ended up with a VW TDI....and love it !!
The Prius got 43MPG coming home from the dealer on a flat bridge over the Hudson river. Over the next 6 months mileage rose to a consistent 50.2 MPG; after a dealer oil change mileage dropped and is now 48.4MPG. No special driving techniques.
The VW handles great, accelerates great, and with 80,000 miles scares me penniless. The Dealer absorbed changing a $2 rubber O ring that would have cost $400+ to change because of the labor of disassembling parts to get to it.
Would I buy a Diesel VW or Mercedes to save gas? Ha
Now a Honda Diesel...
No gas needed for a diesel!
If your needs are to drive a mix of City/Hwy then you will attain ~48 mpg.
BTW, a small nit.
The only 'database' ( of 29 vehicles ) available on the 2003 TDI manual is the EPA wherein it shows that the average for the reporting vehicles is 47 mpg.
link title
This is right in line with the CVT Prius on both larger databases ( EPA and GH ).
As noted many times both vehicles are equivalent in purely FE terms when driven a mix of City and Hwy. The Prius is far superior for city-only driving as indicated above.
To be clear, Toyota has nothing to do with this. It's what the EPA mandates nothing else.
If the EPA mandated that Toyota put figures of 70 and 80 mpg on the stickers and in the specs and in the ads then that's what would have to be shown.
Your one anecdotal experience can be balanced by the one I noted just above where he Averages 64 mpg with trips regularly in the 80 mpg range. His eonditions were different than yours so your two anecdotal results are widely different.
For part of my normal 75 mi commute I often obtain 5-10 min segments of City driving in the 80-100 mpg range. However 80-85% of the time I'm on the Hwy. 48.4 mpg lifetime
OH WELL!!!!!
quote-
But Volkswagen has continued to sell diesel cars to the coterie of advocates who swear by them.
"I talk to owners who are extremely loyal to diesels," says Brian Cartier, Volkswagen manager at Amesbury Chevrolet Volkswagen. "The engines are bulletproof. They get far better mileage than their gasoline counterparts. They get mileage comparable to a hybrid, without having to worry about batteries."
The difference is that diesels get their best mileage during highway driving, explains Jeff Jensen, a sales consultant who specializes in the cars at Tulley Volkswagen in Nashua, N.H., where new diesels are legal. By contrast, gasoline/electric hybrid cars obtain their best fuel economy when driven around town.
"I have diesel customers who are achieving 50 miles to a gallon overall fuel economy," exceeding the estimates on the window stickers, Jensen says. "It's proven technology for that person who is looking for highway fuel economy."
-end
When I considered the Prius vs TDI, it was almost: did I want a city operator that was adequate as a highway cruiser or did I want a highway cruiser that was adequate as a city operator. Since at that time the real world indicators for Prius and TDI were 45-50 and 45-50 respectively, and it was to be a 54 R/T commute (80 H/20C) and longer distance R/R highway cruiser (less than 1000 mile R/T per trip) TDI got the nod. Price difference sealed this deal.
At least give us and educated guess or say you don’t know. It’s just common courtesy. "...
Apparently NOT!, on all counts.
John
The salesperson says that VW is re-badging the unsold '06 models as 2007 models. They send new VIN plates and Monroney stickers.. everything. And... of course, the MSRP is about $5K lower on the '07, comparably equipped. They actually had one, that he said had been converted.
No idea if this was true, but he didn't say anything that would make you doubt him.
Anyone hear a similar story that would back this up?
regards,
kyfdx
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The same salesperson said there would be no 2007 model Jetta TDIs.. He had about 6 of them on the lot, and said he sells them all at MSRP and had moved 4 of them in the last week.
I know the Jetta TDI has good resale value, but I guarantee if you trade-in that just purchased '06 model in three years, you will take the hit for having a 4-yr.old car.. That would bug me.
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Indeed the biggie three: Ford, DCB (Daimler Chysler Benz or however they are currently known) GM, have absolutely seamless transition to the next model year. Indeed the Cummins V8 (motor vendors to DCB) are newly designed: BIGGER, have more hp/#ft of T, and get better mpg!! I like you will drift down to (those) dealers to have a LQQK at the 2007 offerings
On the other hand, it would be the perfect reason and timing for folks who can use the IRS section 179 regulation for the VW V10. Upshot is a 66k vehicle would be the equivalant of 33-35 k. But indeed this is NOT the norm. For the American diesels the same would also be true. So a 44k vehicle would end up penciling out at 22k.
Would be cool to plant a diesel tree in my yard.
quote-
Volkswagen unveiled the cleanest ever TDI engine. First test drives demonstrate the high potential of Volkswagen technology, which consequently reduce nitrogen oxide. In the VW Jetta a new 2.0 litre Common Rail diesel engine with a nitrogen oxide reservoir catalytic converter was used, which complies to the Californian emission standard "Tier 2 / Bin 5". These requirements are considered the most stringent worldwide. The first production run of the "Clean TDI" with nitrogen oxide post-treatment system will be made during 2008 in the USA.
The central theme of the entire concept is the reduction of nitrogen oxide. The engineers in Wolfsburg reached this goal through internal development of the motor and the use of new emission post-treatment technology. The result: up to 90% less nitrogen oxide emissions (NOx).
This drastic reduction was necessary in order to comply with the "Tier 2 / Bin 5" norm, which applies to California and four other states in the north-east of America (Massachusetts, New York, Vermont and Maine). This norm limits nitrogen oxide emissions to 70 mg per mile. In order to comply with this standard, completely new emission treatment technology was necessary. Volkswagen has thus developed two systems connected to the oxidation catalytic converter and the particle filter in the exhaust system.
New NOx reservoir catalytic converter technology is currently being tested for car models below the Passat class. Nitrogen oxide is ab sorbed like a sponge, leading to a high level of efficiency. As with the particle filter, the system is regularly cleaned without the driver noticing. To do this, the engine management system changes operation modes for a few seconds...............-end
"There you go again" Do you have proof that the EPA did the test on the Prius? It is more than likely it was one of the 85% that are tested by THE MANUFACTURER. To me that leaves room for doubt. You can have ten companies test the same car and all get different results. That leaves room for fudging on the tests.
Of the 998 Prius II owners reporting their mileage you have a variation of 42 MPG. All the way from 71.8 MPG to 29.2 MPG. The same goes for any mileage test. Was it a warm day or a cold day in Tokyo? Or maybe the test was all done in a lab on a dynamometer. Or just simulated in a computer. The bottom line is it was way off from reality in an attempt to grab the brass ring from Honda and their Insight.
The EPA tests are mandated to be specifically done in one way.. in a lab under controlled conditions on a dyno. That's the main reason that they don't meet most current drivers' conditions. They are only off from reality because most drivers choose not to drive the manner that the EPA specifies the tests. They are perfectly valid reasons to choose not to drive in the 'EPA manner'. But if one does choose to drive that way then achieving and exceeding the EPA tests values is a snap. I do it every day.
That person in VA Beach has chosen to drive in EPA condition for the entire time he's owned his Prius so his AVERAGE is 64 mpg with several trips in the 80's.
What will be certain is that when the new values are published I will exceed them by at least 10% on an average basis and as much as 20% on a tank-by-tank basis. Nothing has changed for me. I am satisfied knowing all that I do now about the testing methodology and the vehicle that the EPA values are dead accurate.
Given your description of the "why of" EPA deviance, it takes almost no adjustment from the way one drives a regular gasser to get close to or exceed the EPA on a DIESEL. But I am being redundant.
I truly have to say I am happy you get 48 mpg in a car rated for 60/50. This is truly better than one of the better/best economy cars, Honda Civic (Can also include the Toyota Corolla) of 38-42 in a 54 mile R/T commute on an EPA of 29/38.
Using the AVG between the two figures on the Prius = 55, your 48 is MINUS -12.7%
Using the AVG between the two figures on the TDI of 45.5, my 49 is PLUS 7.7%
But again, this is a Diesel in the News thread.
I do not have a lab with a dyno in it. Who does?
The only relevance to diesel news that EPA mpg and hybrids have is that hybrid mpg is going to decrease at a higher percentage than diesel mpg under the new EPA procedures.
And, you don't have to use special driving techniques when driving a diesel to obtain EPA mpg, while a hybrid has to be driven using hybrid fanatic methods to even come close to EPA mpg ratings.
Since I spent app 300 or so miles in a brand new Prius I really do understand (on a 300 mile level of course) the SOTP changes necessary in driving behavior to get say a 48. I also switch off to the Civic.
If you know what the EPA lab test conditions are then you might be able to modifiy your personal driving conditions - by choice - to match the EPA conditions.
while a hybrid has to be driven using hybrid fanatic methods to even come close to EPA mpg ratings.
I agree about the diesel more easily approximating the current EPA tests as do many other gassers ( my 4 previous Camrys for example ).
But in meeting the EPA values with the Prius it's a snap as well.
To be brutally frank many people who complain about their not meeting the EPA standards have little idea what they are complaining about.
Why don't I get 60 mpg on the 2 mi trip to pick up milk or to pick up my wife at her office?
Why is my average below the EPA average of 55 mpg? OK what is the weighted average of your personal driving -between city and highway? My personal what?
Why does my fuel economy go down when it gets cold?
You and I know that is the toughest trip to get decent mileage. However when the average buyer is looking for a car to get better mileage in city driving which that usually is, they look at the EPA city mileage rating. If they do not have an honest salesman, such as yourself, they may be led to believe they will get 60 MPG on short trips to the store. They are disgruntled when it is more like 35 MPG. They can get that with CorVic. Or better yet a Jetta TDI.
Speaking of which I am excited about the new VW diesel that is going to be 50 state saleable in 2008.