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Diesels in the News

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Comments

  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    thank you ruking. possibly the paved roads are of different quality in your area than mine. but i do a lot of driving in massachusetts/boston, where the roads are really bad. there is one really awful road near my house, with a severe "crown" and "frost heaves" in the middle of the road. i've gotta admit i DO WORRY about cracking TDI or GTO oil pan, or otherwise scraping something important. but so far it hasn't happened.
    there are many TDI geeks who get a metal protector-plate for their oil pan , to replace the plastic one that is apparently stock, at least on the A4 TDIs.
    springs to raise the TDI, no thanks, i prefer to keep the center of gravity where the favnerhugen engineers put it, preferring to avoid ROLLOVERS! HELLO! :);):| :} :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The transportation professionals rate the San Francisco Bay Area the worst road conditions in the COUNTRY. I have driven the eastern seaboard, literally from Canada to Key West, FL. Actually all of America, sans Alaska, so I have a little basis for comparisons. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    And LQQK MOM, no snow and ice to contend with!! :(
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    i lived in Cali San Jose bay area for 4 years and agree the roads (especially highways like I80) are the worst in the US as far as i've seen. Worse than the MA highways by far. the MA/NH highways are in pretty good shape, but some of the side/city roads are real punishment.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    2007 Grand Cherokee Diesel

    Too large and too thirsty for my taste, good option if you need the room.
  • hwyhobohwyhobo Member Posts: 265
    Too large and too thirsty for my taste

    I don't mind the size, I do mind the appetite. With the torquiness of the diesel engine, I don't need the 215 HP. I would not buy it to race it, just to have a capable transportation device.

    Europe has much better range of options than US. I don't care if Detroit cannot be cured of the "bigger is better" delusion, I do care that they will not even give us options. :mad:
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    I guess the "bigger is Better" is for members of congress and the governor of NM. You know the E85 is going to save the US many gallons of gasoline/ethenol and save GM too. Ha, Ha, Ha
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    After getting raves at the NAIAS the CTS is ready for the NA market. Today in the press GM also announced that it would be sending the CTS to Europe as well - but with a diesel engine from an Italian maker.

    Curious. It's not only the CARB states but it seems also the vehicle makers as well don't seem overly enthusiastic about diesel here. This seems like such a natural step if they did the reverse. Make the vehicle here and import the engine from Italy. Maybe all in good time.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Spyder,

    GM's hesitancy to embrace diesel power in automobiles is well founded. Remember that they took a gasoline engine and made it into the biggest fiasco the country has ever seen. If anyone sees a diesel in a GM car, then very few people will buy it no matter what GM does to convince them that it is a real diesel that they do not build.

    There are some issues that are dampening the enthusiasm about diesel power in the United States. Companies like GM are charging a huge premium for the privelege of owning a diesel. They would rather sell you a gasser because they actually make more money on them in the long run. Also, GM does not like to pay their technicians to learn something like fixing a diesel. There is no doubt in my mind that GM keeps diesels a rare commodity. On the other hand, Dodge and Ford sells every diesel they can build and they charge somewhat less than GM does.

    Next comes fuel cost. There is a growing demand for diesel fuel worldwide. Also, in many states, road tax on diesel is higher than that for gasoline. Many consumers cannot get past this price difference. Yet, when you do the math, diesel is significantly cheaper to feed per mile than a gasser. Look at the Jeep Liberty. The V-6 gasser version gets about 18 MPG on the road and with gas being abound 2.299/gallon, that comes out to about 12.8 cents/mile. I average about 28 MPG on the road and with diesel being 2.499/gallon locally, that comes out to 8.9 cents/mile or about a 3.9 cent/mile savings or about $585/year (driving 15K/year) in savings. The diesel engine in my Jeep Liberty cost $846 over the V-6 gasser so in less than 1.5 years of driving at 15K/year, the engine is paid for.

    Another issue is that people see diesels as dirty when in reality they are cleaner than gassers in several respects. Diesels emit 20% less GHG than the equivalent powered gasser, emit no unburned HC and almost no CO. With PM traps, that becomes a non-issue and the new after treatment for NOx will reduce it to Prius levels.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There are a few things going on of note.

    First of all, a generation or so ago, the regulators decided to get the lead out of leaded regular/premium. Next was to keep the division of diesel for trucking, etc, etc. Anybody that did NOT get the regulatory message was indeed taking their economic lives into there own hands. The oem's employ HUGE lobby presences for all issues transportation related. Indeed you can bet someones' 400 M dollar retirement payment the oil companies do that also. While most folks don't see this, the entire product logistics delivery system for the passenger vehicle fleet has been/is geared for unleaded regular/premium. It is ONLY recently that #2 diesel pumps found their way there.

    As a counterpoint to the positions/attitudes you know I have toward diesel, if I were "SMART" I would be privately disingenuous. I would come out publically in favor of unleaded regular/premium while of course continuing to drive diesel and vilifying diesel. :(:)

    Caddie and the Corvette line are truly the success stories of GM/USA, domestic vehicles, etc. Some Caddies are even made on the same Corvette line. They follow a most radical concept. They actually build cars that people want!!!???? What does this mean in English? Each Corvette has somebodies name on the build order!!!

    A twin turbo diesel Corvette no matter how well built would probably be worse than intentional sabotage. Even if one did get 48 mpg on the track and 70 mpg cruising at 65 mphand did a 4 sec 0-60. The longer term problem historically and going forward is not too many folks WANT them.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    According to the article, also 3 years earlier than the new STRINGENT 2010 standards.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    My question is: How clean really is it? The only comparison is to the previous year truck, where it is listed as 50% cleaner.

    As far as I can tell, the EPA does not score those large work-level diesel vehicles.

    It would have been nice of the press release to tell us REALLY how clean, using something we could compare it to.

    Does anyone have a link to a page with clean air data on those big trucks ?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Just do a series of googles. :) The EPA 2010 standards are (obviously) advance documents for OEM's.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    CRD JEEP Grand Cherokee Pricing Press Release

    Pricing is very reasonable compared to the gasoline models.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Let the Diesel Duels Begin

    quote-
    Dodge Ram 1500 Light Duty Diesel Model

    Armed with new Cummins clean-diesel technology, Dodge will introduce an all-new turbo diesel engine in its light duty Ram pickup trucks after 2009.
    The new engine will provide a dramatic increase in low-end torque, up to a 30-per cent improvement in fuel efficiency and a 20-per cent reduction in C0(2) emissions when compared to an equivalent gasoline engine.
    "Our all-new Cummins engine will offer future Dodge Ram 1500 customers the ultimate in terms of fuel economy, refinement, reliability and durability," said LaSorda. "It's another example of the Chrysler Group bringing new clean, quiet diesel technology to the marketplace."
    The Dodge Ram's new clean diesel engine will meet benchmark low levels of emissions, including U.S. 50-state emissions standards for 2010.
    "We are pleased to build upon our 18-year partnership and brand franchise with the Chrysler Group by providing our new light-duty diesel-powered engine for use in the Dodge Ram 1500," said Tim Solso, Cummins Chairman and CEO. "We
    know customers for this product will demand high performance. We also know that we need to be extremely good at fuel efficiency and emissions control in order to succeed in this market. Cummins will use its technology leadership to meet all of those criteria, while providing the driving public with an exciting new diesel engine alternative for the popular Dodge Ram series." end quote-
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There is a VERY interesting convergence going on.

    The base 6 cylinder Dodge Ram 1500 gets EPA 16/21 mpg. With diesel engines of say 25% better fuel mileage, we can be talking EPA 20/26 mpg.

    On a Honda Civic real world mpg thread, there are a number of folks posting who take EXTREME umbrage with folks who get more than THEIR 24.5/25 mpg !!!!!????

    The nexus here: the 25 mpg is with what most people would acknowledged to be one of the PREMIER SMALL CARS / economy/ECONOMICAL to run fuel sippers!!??

    Why would one want to get a small box like that which gets 1 mpg less than say a DIESEL Dodge RAM 1500 which they would need, want, etc?!!!!???
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    My question is: How clean really is it?

    Actually it is quite clean. When comparing it to EU diesels found in passenger cars, NOx is 1/3 to 1/2 of that of many small four and six cylinder diesels including those from Toyota and Honda's 2.2L diesel. PM is almost nil and nearly as good as Mercedes own PM filter system used on the E320 CDI.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    In one of these articles, it mentions the 4.7L V-8 now being E85 capable. What I find interesting is that they omitted FE numbers.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    -25% in comparison to gasser is probably NOT an appealing number. When you put it up along side the +25% on up for the #2 diesel side.... even less so. As a matter of fact, the delta is ... 50...% :(:) My SWAG is they will offer the "required" amount to pick up the probably HEFTY (E85, alternative fuel, etc) tax credits.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    In one of these articles, it mentions the 4.7L V-8 now being E85 capable. What I find interesting is that they omitted FE numbers.

    The E85 4.7L V8 uses 85% less petroleum than the regular 4.7L V8 gasoline engine. :)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I did some snooping on the EPA website and compared FE of E85 versus non-E85 powered vehicles from any manufacturer that made them. The range I saw was 5 - 8 MPG loss when using E85. On the emissions side, the reduction in GHG was far less than I expected, in most cases less than 10% when using E85.

    The cost of driving one of these things was on average $800 more per year over using straight gasoline. Just does not make sense, even with incentives and credits. About the only positive thing I see out of E85 is that more of our money stays in the U.S.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Agreed but look how much energy it takes to produce ethanol. It is not pretty. In my view the trade off is almost not worthwhile.

    Why not design the engine to take advantage of the increased octane that ethanol provides? SAAB has dabbled with that by fitting an induction system that can handle E85 to one of their turbo cars. Real good power noted as well as improved FE.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..." The range I saw was 5 - 8 MPG loss when using E85"...

    Let me just (stack the deck a bit) use the LOW (-5 to -8 )number on my TLC, Highway EPA 15 mpg -5 mpg =10 mpg, -5/15= MINUS -33%

    Using that gasser 2007 Dodge Ram 1500 Highway EPA 21 mpg-5mpg= 16 mpg, -5/21= MINUS -24%

    Again, I think it salvagable in the macro/micro senses. While this is not my personal .02 cents for a host of reasons, make the price per mile for ethanol fuel (portion or the 85%) the same as gasser or even diesel. Just dont raise prices on diesel to rig the game, I.E. just RIG ethanol (much lower price per gal for example). There are of course a host of other options.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    Would the Dodge 1500 diesel be offered in USA also?

    The article may be aimed only at Canadian customers.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Would be nice to see that happen. Daimler-Chrysler tends to be tight lipped about such things but I do not see why a diesel powered RAM 1500 will not be offered in the near future. The diesel they are putting into the Grand Cherokee CRD would be a good choice.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    From IL News today..

    The new engine is smoother, quieter, more powerful and more efficient than the old Jetta TDI, which won many friends, but it won't cost more. Fuel economy should be better, in the 45 mpg range, while the engine produces 140 horsepower and 235 pound-feet of torque, according to Krause
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Too bad it was not available in 2002/2003. :( To me a hit of 5 mpg might be liveable for 50 hp MORE!! Imagine 80 MORE # ft of torque!! And a 6 speed manual!!! I am sure you know what would have to be done in a gasser to achieve THAT!! This would need as a min a coast to coast road trip!! WOO HOO!!!
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I found an article and they state that the new Jetta TDI emissions system beats the Tier 2 Bin 5 standard which is 70mg of NOx/mile (43.75mg/km). The after treatment system on the Jetta does not require the use of the AdBlue solution. The diesel in the Passat and large vehicles will require the use of AdBlue.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The TDI engine in the 2005 Passat was a 2.0L diesel that made 134 HP and 247 lb-ft of torque. I wonder if VW modified the injection system to further increase performance and reduce emissions?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would think that would make a lot of sense, as mine is NOT the common rail injection type. I think also with the "Euro" injectors.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Info. released by VW today.

    CLEAN DIESEL VOLKSWAGEN JETTA MAKES NORTH AMERICAN DEBUT AT WASHINGTON, D.C. AUTO SHOW

    WASHINGTON, D.C. – Volkswagen of America, Inc. today unveiled its cleanest diesel ever for the U.S., the Jetta TDI. Additionally, the company announced that this new clean diesel will be available to the U.S. market in the spring of 2008. This Jetta TDI will meet emissions standards applicable in all 50 states, including the most stringent "TIER 2/BIN 5" or "LEV II/LEV" requirement limiting nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions to 0.05 g/mile.

    This clean diesel Jetta meets the lowest emissions standards without the use of urea injection. Instead, a nitrogen oxide storage catalyst reduces NOx emissions by up to 90 percent. The engine management system in the Jetta changes operating modes periodically to treat the NOx that has been stored in the catalytic converter. A particulate filter in the exhaust system further reduces emissions.

    The Jetta TDI is one of the first products of the BLUETEC offensive initiated jointly by Audi, Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen. The goal of this partnership is to establish the concept of BLUETEC as a uniform label for clean and highly fuel efficient diesel-powered cars and SUVs with 50-state compliant engines. BLUETEC denotes diesel power plants that comply with the strictest emissions regulations of the US market. The technologies individually developed by each manufacturer serve to reduce NOx in particular – an exhaust element more prevalent in a diesel engine.

    Volkswagen unveiled its clean diesel concept Tiguan compact SUV at the Los Angeles Auto Show in November. The Tiguan will be available in the U.S. mid 2008.

    Volkswagen has a 30-year history of providing the U.S. market with efficient and durable diesel vehicles. Diesels traditionally account for almost 20 percent of Volkswagen's sales in the United States.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    From my perspective, this is very exciting. While Honda's new cTDI will be formidable, I think this new Jetta TDI would be its rival. It will be interesting to see them both at the show room (or sooner) Let's see if Honda can match a few of the things, I have really come to like about the Jetta, such as: galvanized bodywork (12 year rust through guarantee), 400/500k miles clutch longevity, 25,000 hour design parameters for the diesel motor, and long lasting consumables: tires, brake pads, rotors, springs, shocks, struts.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Your Jetta TDI is a common rail diesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The 2008 (new one) for sure!!

    VW to Switch to Common-Rail Diesel Technology from PD-TDI
    December 13, 2005
    by Justin Couture / American Auto Press

    http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/vw-to-switch-to-common-rail-diesel-techno- - - - logy-from-pd-tdi/1591/

    Volkswagen is making a significant change in its diesel powerplants by discontinuing the Pumpe Düse fuel injection system and adopting common rail technology

    http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=153503

    The Touareg will be the only TDI available as a 2007 model due to EPA restrictions and VW changing over to common rail.

    http://www.tdiclub.com/

    The 2003 Jetta GLS 1.9 TDI (Turbo Diesel Injection) is one of the new-generation diesels, but it's not the newest. It uses microprocessors to individually meter and inject fuel into separate intake valves. But a more advanced diesel engine, the common-rail diesel, takes that technology a big step further.

    The common-rail diesel uses a special port to feed all fuel-intake valves precisely at the same time. That means better efficiency, better fuel economy and fewer emissions.

    But common-rail diesels require super-low sulfur-diesel fuel, which is difficult to find in the United States. So, for the moment, the less efficient, port-by-port, direct-injection diesels will have to do

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2003/03/09/AR2005032405151.- - - html

    Mine is the 2003 Jetta TDI.

    At the time 1998-2003, getting ULSD (15 ppm or less) was dicey at best. It sold at a premium, if you could locate a supply and consistent product. In addition, the 49 state LSD was up to 500 ppm. It was rumored that CA LSD was 140 ppm. The rumor also was at times CA diesel was even less than 140 ppm. Even those model years were designed to run on ULSD and one probable outcome was premature clogging of the EGR and intake systems. Mechanics I know that have worked on 49 state vs CA state say that almost categorically the CA state diesel cars have had FAR less clogging than the 49 states. :( So I am more than glad ULSD is finally here.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Thanks for the history lesson of VW diesel injection systems. Learned something new today. In hindsight, I am glad that I did not buy the VW. I am not saying that it is a bad engine but the PD-TDI design, the way it is described in the articles is more complex than I wish to deal with.

    My Jeep Liberty CRD does have a common rail injection system and frankly I am quite pleased with it. It is simple, reliable and rugged.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    For me getting the the 2003 TDI was really dumb luck. :) I guess if you have chose between smart or lucky, TAKE LUCK!! :)

    From a gen (A-4) point of view, the 2003 is one of the better ones. The 2005/2006's seem to be an absolute hit! The previous gen (A-3) has a number of better design features (beefer clutch, much easier and cheaper labor wise to change water pump, etc.)

    While advocates will probably not like this, I believed I dodged a bullet in not getting the 2004 or PD TDI. (pump duse) Indeed if not for the diesel engine, me thinks I probably would not have gotten a VW at all as the gasser engines at worst can have their issues. Actually a lot of "unreliability" stems from the 1.9T and 2.0 ENGINE issues. In addition VW has had a much higher percentage of (other than engine) unreliability :(;) I am however very satisfied with the quality AND durability and I have to believe in my case VW messed up and built me a most reliable VW Jetta TDI. :) Going forward I do hope VW improves substantially.

    Indeed like you, I do prefer the SUV type if I had to only have (say) one vehicle or par down. But since they only made something like 11k of the diesel Jeep Liberty's? I obviously missed that line !!?? :)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The Liberty was not my first choice. I would have preferred a Dodge RAM 2500 with the Cummins six cylinder but my wife found it just too large and unwieldy. The VW Passat wagon was my second choice but the information (as I have learned misinformation) the dealer gave me was problematic. Issues with the cost of repair parts for common items and durability of the brakes, especially the front was what finally killed the Passat. The Jetta wagon was cute but seating was a bit too tight for my taste.

    I really did not want an SUV as my prior vehicle had been a Dodge Dakota Pickup. What was nice about that was you could throw anything into the bed and if it got dirty, you hose it out. The Jeep Liberty is a compromise for me. I love the engine and if packed properly you can carry tons of stuff. Unfortunately I had to get some items I did not want. I really did not want four wheel drive and have used it only a few times. Used it recently in a snow/ice storm. It was helpful in getting me going from a stop but no help in stopping. Got ABS and that has proven to be a mixed blessing. I wish it tracked better down the road but because it is setup with an off-road suspension, it is the price you pay.

    Reliability wise it has been pretty good. If diesel fuel had been ULSD and/or EU spec fuel, then the EGR valve failure issue would be significantly less. In some respects, Daimler did not really test certain drive train components as thoroughly as they should have. There was a recent recall (F37) to replace the TC and remap the engine controller and trans controller. The engine generated so much low end torque that it was ripping apart the TC.

    I wonder how the Jeep GC CRD is going to do? Should be interesting.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes I think the diesel offerings will come on line in models oems' think they will have the least problems selling. As the diesel models in various segments come on line, hopefully you/me/we will have to deviate less to get something you want, need, etc. I am sure you would also agree with me; the practical daily use of diesel, once adjusted for diesel's differences, (except for responding to threads like this) is absolutely SEAMLESS and requires very little adjustment.

    So for example, STARTER no brainers for me are: the 100/1000 series pu trucks, SUV, Tahoe, Suburban, Pilot, GC's, Small, Medium, Large cars, etc.

    Not to get political, but if the USA embraces the concept of using LESS unleaded regular fuel/importing LESS L/S crude(President Bush threw done the % number of 20%) then going to diesel and alternative fuels such as BIO diesel, ethanol etc will aide in that effort. Just less than to 20% of the population shifting to diesel would do it. (37% advantage over gasser) Indeed in terms of miles 42% of my miles are done NOT using unleaded regular!!!! Make a diesel Honda available and that % goes to 73% !!!!!!
  • skobolaskobola Member Posts: 207
    Why would you say that ABS had proven to be a mixed blessing?
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Why do I find ABS a mixed blessing?

    For one, braking distances are little bit longer. Two, it is harder to modulate the amount of pressure after a certain point because the system kicks in.

    My wife's 1998 Chrysler Concorde has ABS and it is less intrusive than the ABS on my Jeep.

    The one positive experience I have had is on ice. There it worked quite well and was helpful.
  • repoman1repoman1 Member Posts: 64
    Info. released by VW Jan 23, 2007
    CLEAN DIESEL VOLKSWAGEN JETTA MAKES NORTH AMERICAN DEBUT AT WASHINGTON, D.C. AUTO SHOW

    WASHINGTON, D.C. – Volkswagen of America, Inc. today unveiled its cleanest diesel ever for the U.S., the Jetta TDI. Additionally, the company announced that this new clean diesel will be available to the U.S. market in the spring of 2008. This Jetta TDI will meet emissions standards applicable in all 50 states, including the most stringent "TIER 2/BIN 5" or "LEV II/LEV" requirement limiting nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions to 0.05 g/mile.

    This clean diesel Jetta meets the lowest emissions standards without the use of urea injection. Instead, a nitrogen oxide storage catalyst reduces NOx emissions by up to 90 percent. The engine management system in the Jetta changes operating modes periodically to treat the NOx that has been stored in the catalytic converter. A particulate filter in the exhaust system further reduces emissions.

    The Jetta TDI is one of the first products of the BLUETEC offensive initiated jointly by Audi, Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen. The goal of this partnership is to establish the concept of BLUETEC as a uniform label for clean and highly fuel efficient diesel-powered cars and SUVs with 50-state compliant engines. BLUETEC denotes diesel power plants that comply with the strictest emissions regulations of the US market. The technologies individually developed by each manufacturer serve to reduce NOx in particular – an exhaust element more prevalent in a diesel engine.

    Volkswagen unveiled its clean diesel concept Tiguan compact SUV at the Los Angeles Auto Show in November. The Tiguan will be available in the U.S. mid 2008.

    Volkswagen has a 30-year history of providing the U.S. market with efficient and durable diesel vehicles. Diesels traditionally account for almost 20 percent of Volkswagen's sales in the United States.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Deja Vu? Deja Vu?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    And the same article was posted two additional times in two other diesel threads!!?
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    And the same article was posted two additional times in two other diesel threads!!?

    An indication many are excited about its alleged arrival, myself included.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Try driving a Prius in the snow! Latest safety feature from Toyota. Slip or slide a little in a Prius and the car dies.

    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/prius_snowbound.html
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's a characteristic of all Toyota's with Traction Control. It's why on a lot of them there is a Trac disable switch.

    To alleviate this on the Prius because there is no disable switch they began on the 2006 models to electronically allow some slippage in order not to come to a stop. It's like an Auto LSD on trucks now.

    This system has nothing to do with the power per se, when slippage was felt the Trac puts the brakes on to stop the spinning. Obviously when the brakes are on the vehicle stops. That's how Traction control works for all vehicles everywhere. The disable switch keeps the computer from applying the brakes.

    I know from your experience that you were aware of this. But the site where this was posted is a lawyers site with little experience. It's also a site intended to draw dissatisfied people of all types to join class actions if there is enough interest. No interest? Then the lawyers move on to car seats or pharmaceuticals or toys or whatever.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I disagree about your comments concerning the site where this is posted. They hammer everyone equally. Is it a site that draws dissatisfied people? Might be, but when you consider that many automakers try to deny issues with their products, it is one place to go. Recently Toyota lost a class action suite to owners of several Toyota models because the engines sludged up even with proper maintenance. Toyota is now admitting to a problem and is paying out several millions of dollars after telling these Toyota owners to go screw themselves.

    I have driven one car with traction control on a wet surface and pushed it to the limit. It never stopped the wheels from turning when the car began to slide but applied just enough braking and reduction in engine power to keep control.

    As the article describes it, the vehicle drive train refused to engage because one wheel slipped. I view this as a serious flaw. Imagine being stuck on a hill and you cannot move and some comes behind you and clobbers you because you cannot move the car. Not a pretty sight. I feel Toyota's analysis of the issue is in error.

    I am a New Englander by birth and have tons of experience driving on snow and ice without traction control. If I had a car then with traction control that would not let it move because on wheel slipped a little, I would have sold it in a heartbeat.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It is a lawyers site to gather info for possible class actions.

    The comment you made and the article from which it came makes it appear that it's a Prius-specific issue that somehow makes the power disappear in that the engine dies. It's nothing of the kind. It's not Prius-specific and the article poorly describes the problem. The Traction Control system applies the brakes that's why the vehicles don't move at low speeds.

    Just as in your situation when driving and a loss of traction is encountered the brakes are applied to the spinning wheel to bring it under control but the vehicle keeps moving forward from its own momentum....just under control.

    The problem arises when a vehicle is at a dead stop and slick conditions arise. Then the brakes are applied and the vehicle can't move. That's the purpose of the TRAC disable switch ( on all vehicles with TRAC ) or the Auto LSD like in the new Prius'.

    Your innuendo about issues from the 90's that were settled back in 2003 are out of line . The whole explanation of the Trac Ctrl system is hardly hidden. It's in the owner's manual. The issue on the Prius isn't new or being hidden either it's been around and well documented on the hybrid boards since the first one came out in 2000. There was no Trac disable switch on the first Prius'. Toyota addressed the problem by adding the LSD on the 2006 model.
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