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http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/17/oil-sludging-atonement-toyota-settles-class-a- ction-suit/
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/16429210.htm
Here are two articles concerning the suite that you claim was settled a long time ago in 2003. It appears to have been settled very recently.
I find it ludicrous that any traction control system would prevent you from moving from a dead stop under slippery conditions. Since the earlier Prius cannot disengage traction control, then the driver is put at risk and anyone who runs into this hapless person is also put at risk. I find it even more ludicrous that it took Toyota so long to add a switch to disengage traction control and that the switch should have been there in the first place.
As to your comment about the owner's manual, how many people even read them or even refer to them? Not all that many do.
Nothing has changed from 2003. It's very old news.
I find it ludicrous that any traction control system would prevent you from moving from a dead stop under slippery conditions.
That's the very definition of Traction Control in every vehicle that has it. When slippage occurs the brakes are applied to slow the slippage. When moving it keeps the wheels turning at the same speed, say 50 mph, instead of one wheel doing 50 and the other doing 80. I'm very familiar with this since on my 1996 Concorde I opted not to get TC and one night coming out of NYC I hit wet ice in the far left lane in front of Giants Stadium and did two 360's across 5 empty lanes and ended up in a snow bank next to the far right line. When I came off the ice my left wheel was doing 80-90 mph and the right wheel with traction was doing 60 mph.
When you are stuck in snow or on icy pavement Trac Ctrl is a PIA unless it can be disabled or controlled now electronically. Why was it not? Like lots of new developments being on the road for several years offers the opportunity to make on-the-fly improvements. There is no manual disable switch because the TC system needs to be active nearly all the time because of the tremendous torque of the electric motor. Without the TC in place drivers would be smoking their tires, literally, at every light and stop sign.
As to the owner's manual, if it's there and it's not read then I've got no sympathy for anyone who doesn't understand how the vehicle and it's systems work. First reaction complain and/or sue somebody.
While I want to register supreme disappointment, as I almost bought another Toyota product. It is VERY curious that the affected full range of models, etc was left out. Instead, the product's engine and years was stated. The CORE ISSUE/real question: what if anything did they do across the product line to make sure the same conditions have been eliminated??? Given the spin I would SWAG not much.
I am not altogether surprised. It truly reminds me the truth: BUYER BEWARE. Even with Toyota. But that is the good news!!
The OLD NEWS
I was a past owner of a (bought brand new) 1985 Toyota Camry. Given the model year 2007, it was new 22 years ago. Before it reached 95,000 miles, it saw 2/3k oil changes with dealer oil and Castro. To make a long story short, it was a sludge a matic. It cost 2,400 to repair the damage found after it sprung a hole in the oil system which let the oil leak, which while shut down in time caused massive head and valve warpage. But truthfully that was not all that was wrong with it. Toyota did provide fixes under the so called secret warranty. All tolled the repairs cost app 4,000 dollars for a car I was able to sell shortly after all these repairs for 4,500 dollars.
..."The settlement applies to owners of certain 1997-2002 model-year vehicles, such as the Camry, some of which might have been damaged by engine oil gel or sludge"...
So given old news, while I would like to think the 1997-2002 is/was episodic, it might be more NORMAL than I would like to fantasize.
The bad news
I still am a buyer of Toyota, Landcruisers, but I did the buyer beware research into them and they seemed to have dodged the sludge bullet even with 15,000 mile OCI's. Across the product line it is STILL "BUYER BEWARE"
So while VW in general might have its deserved and undeserved vilification, at a BABY 86,000 miles my TDI diesel engine is running sludge free and with INXS of 10,000 mile OCI's. Problems have consisted of a rear door lock oem recall. It was never a problem or malfunction, yet I did bring it in for the recall.
Having had 4 Camry's since 1989 without any issues except a set of strut caps on one for $400. I guess our experieces balance out. With the ongoing growth of the Camry line it seems the weight of evidence is that the 'sludge issue' wasn't much of an issue for owners at that time. They've repeated and repeated and are continuing to repeat.
Plenty of places in our forums to talk about traction control and the Toyota sludge issues, but this isn't one of them. Back to 40-cetane #2 fuel, please!
kcram - Pickups Host
SWAG
mean ??
You use it in some very odd sentences making it look like it cannot possibly mean the same thing in both sentences.
'Scientific wild-assed guess' or 'silly wild-assed guess' or 'sophisticated wild-[non-permissible content removed] guess'
Hope this helps.
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm
Indeed if we were to ban diesel or unlead regular, (depending on ones' political bent, bias or what parts of what problem/s folks really want to solve, the other would have to be NECESSARILY disposed of as HAZARDOUS WASTE!!! This is a bigger problem that banning diesel would solve!!! This of course would greatly increase the cost of what is chosen to be used!!!
It would be one thing IF technologically one can get 100% unleaded regular and/or 100% diesel from a 42 gal barrel of oil, but indeed this is not CURRENTLY technologically do able!! Perhaps their false premise is due to the fact that the very folks responsible to say make this happen CAN NOT do it currently!!
The UCS should then a study in 2009 and see if they come up with the same conclusions. I doubt they will.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/08/03/subaru-announces-diesel-engine-for-2008/-
On the other hand it is documented that with currently technology, one can get 10,000 gals of bio diesel from an acre of algae cultivation!!! 10,000 gals of bio diesel for my Jetta TDI at 50 mpg would be 500,000 miles !!!!!!!
More diesels is great news, too bad they will be in minivans.
All the mini vans in the US average about 16 to 18 mpg now. This would be a welcomed change.
It's a pity Chrysler is going to wait until 2010 to start putting diesels in, if they do at all. The phrase "We're contemplating it," from Jason Vines, Chrysler's chief spokesman, does not give me warm-and-fuzzies.
On this one, unfortunately, you are 100% right. It's a pity. I have a little chip in my brain somewhere that from time to time orders me to buy a Ford
To some degree the front and side impact testing is at fault, and the public's preoccupation with it, but if taken to extreme we should just stay in our bedrooms.
Current Grand Caravan's 3.8L V6 is 200 hp @ 5000 rpm and 235 lb-ft @ 4000 rpm. The Benz 3.0 V6 is 215 hp @ 3800 rpm and 376 lb-ft from 1600 to 2800 rpm. With that engine, the Grand Caravan diesel would be the sport model.
kcram - Pickups Host
Well, the Autoweek article seems to imply the new 2.2 is supposed to challenge the 3.0 with a smaller displacement. Perhaps it will get an even better efficiency. I like space, and I like to take a nap in the car on a long trip as much as anyone else, I just don't want to pay for it in crazy fuel usage. I don't even mind paying more for the technology. To me the equation is simple - if I pay for technology, it ends up in the hands of people who live where I live (or at least in the same cultural hemisphere) and then gets spent and builds the economy and helps everyone and me in the process. If I spend it on fuel, it ends up in some terrorist-infested rathole. I might as well burn it in my fireplace.
SuBaRu Diesel
Please make your diesel an option in the US for 2008. You will be pleasantly surprised at the number of diesel Legacy's and Forrester's that you will sell.
The American Public
I sure would like to do the diesel thing if its available in a nice sized car... the VW Jetta was a bit smallish but its not availablr this year anyway and I certainly can't afford a MB...
1 24/25 mpg!! @ 215/376 # ft of torque! More than a few WOW's!
2. The good news: the article spends a lot of time on bio diesel,
3. further good news is bio diesel can be harvested from a plethora of long standing industrial and natural processes (waste).
4. further good news R & D can develop OTHER sources: going forward and of course long standing processes previously not brought to the fore.
5. the even BETTER news is bio diesel (ethanol also) from algae @ 10,000 gals of bio diesel per acre!
a. not only is it a renewable resource,
b BUT plentiful in nature already both in salt and fresh water
c the upstream processes' actually "eats" CO2 in the natural productive/production process, whereas the current oil and gas production process' do/does NOT and a "by product is OXYGEN !!!!
d. I think we do a disservice to diesel/biodiesel acceptability by always referring to "old dirty diesel " while NOT mentioning in the same sentence that leaded and unleaded regular and premium used to be as bad and worse.
My 2004 530d (manual, 6 gears) has one turbo, with the following characteristics:
3 liters, 6 cyl. with 4 valves per cyl., compression 17:1
5500 rpm, autolimited.
Max. velocity: 152.24 miles per hour at 4000 rpm, autolimited.
218 hp (recent models have more, up to ≈270 hp).
368.75 lb/foot max torque at 2000 rpm. Then the curve smoothly steps down until 4000 rpm (another peak at 3000 rpm). From there on it falls abruptly.
Turbo compressor with variable geometry. It entries at 1000 rpm. No delay in the acceleration at this or any other moment when stepping down the pedal.
Common Rail 'DDE' injection, 4 injections per cyl per cycle, at a maximum of 1600 bares each, electronically controlled.
Consume with my driving (after three years, 47850 miles, 76% sporty road and 24% quiet town):
36.3 miles per gallon in highway & mountain roads
19.99 miles per galon in town
30.7 miles per galon on the average
All measures are given in USA units.
And yes, you can drive sportively this car.
It is a pleasure driving and riding it everyday. It is my first diesel. It is exact at corners, quick, quiet and smooth. No bad smells or eye itching. There is reason to believe that Lexus is not so well sold as BMW, Audis and MB in Europe because Lexus has no offer of diesel models. This indeed applies for LPS and HELC niches. Even whithin the LPS and HELC range, more than 50% of the cars sold now in Europe are diesels. In fact, the percentage is up to 70% across European countries.
Regards from Spain,
Jose
A diesel Wrangler is an excellent idea!
We need more cars and how about adding some mini van diesels, but not if they add the big truck engines.
They offer diesel across their product lines.
The issue in getting diesels in this country without having to buy a full-size truck is two-fold IMO:
The EPA requirements, that are the strictest in the world, are magnified by California, Mass(I think)and a couple of other states that enforce even higher anti-smog laws. This limits the number of states that a manufacturer can sell the current technology diesel engines in. It does not make distribution sense to sell a product that must be unavailable in the biggest markets in the country.
Second is what I call the 'PS' mentality. That stands for Pre-Sushi mentality that basically said the American public did not want diesel cars, hatchbacks or sushi. I would argue that it is this mentality that we should hold all the manufacturers accountable for.
Fact is the American public will look for vehicles that get great mileage, are extremely reliable and don't cough up a cloud of black smoke.
Lobby Congress for the emissions controls to be balanced with mileage controls. Then it would be in the consumer's hands to drive the market.
I am afraid those "OTHER" lobbyist's have much more money.
Assume the following:
Reg gas price $2.10
Diesel price $2.50
Miles driven per year 12,000.
Average mpg for gas 20 mpg
Average mpg for diesel 25 mpg (25% increase)
Premium paid for diesel engine $1,000.
Annual fuel cost gas------$1260.
Annual fuel cost diesel---$1200.
Annual savings for diesel-$60.
Years to recoup the $1,000 premium---16 years
Now please feel free to play with these numbers, change assumptions, etc. if these don't work for you. Using these assumptions, which seem fairly reasonable, I was disappointed.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It is also apparent and has been from pretty much the start that a 400-1000 premium is very hard to over come. So again another signal would be lower premiums for the diesel model.
Also as you know it is a combination of things that would make diesel have any sense at all. Some examples 1. higher yearly miles 2. plans to keep a vehicle longer on the road.
I only went for a diesel because there was a need want for a so called "higher mileage" commute vehicle. The mpg of a gasser was 24/31 vs 42/49 TDI. with a 246 dollar premium. So that was a no brainer. Next the VW was 18k vs 12.6k Civic. Again as you say 5.4k is a very high obstacle to overcome. The other complication was 29/38 mpg. So the new benchmark become 400,000 to 500,000 miles! The final capper the yearly average miles was 27,000 per year. Indeed it is still buyer beware.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Well, at 40 mph, times 25,000 hours, we are talking about a theoretical engine longevity of 1 million miles.
MOst people seem to think that the car would last at least 300,000 to 500,000 miles .
Wow...in that time, one would have to buy at least 2 , maybe three gasser cars....
DIesels are the way to go.....no wonder there are lots of older diesels still running around.
But we ended up buying a 2002 VW jetta TDI .
NEW 2006 Prius $25,000 . Used 2004 Prius $23,000 My tdi is much older...and has 109,000 miles.
cost only $13,000
NOw lets look at how long the thing lasts.
1- most dealerships agree that the Prius engine, the 1.5 liter , may not last longer than 150,000 miles.
2-The batteries may need replacing after 8 years...a big uncertainty. Replacement cost is $3000 plus !
3- Prius has a purchase premium much higher than diesel VW TDIs.
4- Well, PRius does give better mileage than most gassers...but in the end, they still need dino fuel. Still need a gas pump. You can run VW tdi on biodiesel, which is made out of veggie oil and waste oils. Renewable resource !!
5- WEll, Jetta is stronger in the protection of the occupants, since its weight and heftier engine helps absorb more of the crash energies.
6- Well, both get around 40 to 50 mpg. Yes, some get more, but the real life mpg from the Prius only yielded me 45.3 mpg. Real life VW tdi mpg is similar , 45.8 mpg.
I agree that immediate economics in a non Prius gasser car , like TOyota Echo, or similar car, may make the diesel look more expensive.
Since diesel, for some strange reason, is more expensive than gasoline, when it used to be cheaper.
But wait til whole life cycle costs are calculated...and I think diesels will come out ahead. You need to buy out of pocket, 2 gasser vehicles, to equal the longevity of a diesel vehicle....that is my guess.... The diesel will not need a rebuild in between, either.
BTW, if one runs the diesel vehicle with biodiesel, then the environmental benefits and self satisfaction is alone worth the price.
I was running the Pruis....and though it saved gas compared to other vehicles, it still used gasoline ! It was still using a very limited resource.
Houdini...come on over to the biodiesel side...stop getting in line at the gas pump....
Well, at 40 mph, times 25,000 hours, we are talking about a theoretical engine longevity of 1 million miles.
MOst people seem to think that the car would last at least 300,000 to 500,000 miles .
Wow...in that time, one would have to buy at least 2 , maybe three gasser cars....
DIesels are the way to go.....no wonder there are lots of older diesels still running around. "
The other thing is that the average TDI going its AVERAGE 40/45/50 mph functions at the 20/30% capacity. This would mean that while it is still under load, it is (in theory) under a less stressful load. This would tend to convert to an even longer life/mileage/durability.
Now that I have the TDI, my goal is to drive it within its parameters and do a min of 500,000 miles with app 5 timing belt changes. As for diesel disappearing... not likely at least within the next generation (30 years)
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
While diesel will last a long time, and the ease of making diesel substitutes will further ensure that we diesel owners will have fuel to burn, I think that having the price come down is a good thing.
2-The batteries may need replacing after 8 years...a big uncertainty. Replacement cost is $3000 plus !
3- Prius has a purchase premium much higher than diesel VW TDIs.
4- Well, PRius does give better mileage than most gassers...but in the end, they still need dino fuel. Still need a gas pump. You can run VW tdi on biodiesel, which is made out of veggie oil and waste oils. Renewable resource !!
5- WEll, Jetta is stronger in the protection of the occupants, since its weight and heftier engine helps absorb more of the crash energies.
6- Well, both get around 40 to 50 mpg. Yes, some get more, but the real life mpg from the Prius only yielded me 45.3 mpg. Real life VW tdi mpg is similar , 45.8 mpg.
I agree that immediate economics in a non Prius gasser car , like TOyota Echo, or similar car, may make the diesel look more expensive.
Since diesel, for some strange reason, is more expensive than gasoline, when it used to be cheaper.
But wait til whole life cycle costs are calculated...and I think diesels will come out ahead. You need to buy out of pocket, 2 gasser vehicles, to equal the longevity of a diesel vehicle....that is my guess.... The diesel will not need a rebuild in between, either.
Well this is amazing since you said that you did all the homework and analysis yet you still restate some of the most basic misconceptions that were first posted back in 2002 and 2003. It really is amazing.
Your personal choice is certainly valid but your statements are grossly inaccurate:
1- most dealerships agree that the Prius engine, the 1.5 liter , may not last longer than 150,000 miles.
There is no truth to this because you didn't survery over 650 dealerships in the US. In addition the 1.5L ICE is Toyota's most basic and reliable engine all over the world. Saying it will last only 150,000 miles is ridiculous. Where did you pull this number from?
2-The batteries may need replacing after 8 years...a big uncertainty. Replacement cost is $3000 plus !
This one sets me off more than any other silly statement. There are no Prius' that have needed traction battery replacements due to failure - ever!! Abuse? yes a few. How could you conclude that from zero instances that there is a substantial risk. And why after 8 years? ( The warranty in the CARB states is 10 yrs / 150000 miles. ) Or did you mean that in 15 - 20 years the batteries might have to be replaced?
3- Prius has a purchase premium much higher than diesel VW TDIs.
You might have investigated too early. With reduced financing now and discounts across the board on all trims now in its 4th year the Prius is generally at invoice or less, such as $500 under invoice. Net for net the Prius is likely thousands less than a Jetta TDI now, when they go back on sale.
4- Well, PRius does give better mileage than most gassers...but in the end, they still need dino fuel. Still need a gas pump. You can run VW tdi on biodiesel, which is made out of veggie oil and waste oils. Renewable resource !!
Agree absolutely, and it's the main reason I'd get a diesel over a hybrid.
5- WEll, Jetta is stronger in the protection of the occupants, since its weight and heftier engine helps absorb more of the crash energies.
This is not accurate.
EURONCAP ratings: Prius=Passat
IIHS small cars
IIHS midsized moderately priced cars
6- Well, both get around 40 to 50 mpg. Yes, some get more, but the real life mpg from the Prius only yielded me 45.3 mpg. Real life VW tdi mpg is similar , 45.8 mpg.
Depending on how you drive this is about average or on the low side of average. I get 48 mpg overall and 51 mpg in summer.
But wait til whole life cycle costs are calculated...and I think diesels will come out ahead. You need to buy out of pocket, 2 gasser vehicles, to equal the longevity of a diesel vehicle....that is my guess.... The diesel will not need a rebuild in between, either.
Diesel engines are well-know for longevity. However the turbochargers and all the other electronics on VW's are very very very suspect. Yes the diesel may be bulletproof but according to the market and auto surveys you may want to put a bullet in the Jetta first due to all the other annoying costs.
The fact is that in Spain diesel fuel costs actually 3.40 USA Dollars per gallon. Even so, diesel fuel costs about 1 USA Dollar per gallon less than gas does. (This difference varies, and even is reversed, across European Countries. It fully depends on the local taxing policy).
Another fact is that here diesel cars are somewhat more expansive than comparable gas cars, the difference depending upon the model.
Under these circumstances, we assume it is advisable to buy a diesel if the mileage is above 16,000 miles per year.
Comparing the consume of my BMW 530d with that of a Citroen gas of similar liters I owned before, I am saving ≈130 $ USA Dollars per month in fuel. You cannot make a living on that, but Diesel engines also endure more total mileage and therefore can be better sold than gas cars.
Not that that Citroen was a bad car, but I had less joy getting power from it than from my actual car, in addition.
Regards,
Jose
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
One statement that keeps coming up is this bizarre idea that diesels will routinely go 500,000 miles while gas vehicles may go 100 to 150 with luck. I have driven many to well over 200,000 very hard miles and then sold them for top dollar. Additionally, I am familiar with the cab companies that operate in my area and they are very happy to get 300,000 out of their diesel mercedes, and not at all surprised to get 300,000 out of their gas Mercedes. They now tend to buy gas vehicles new and diesels at used auctions. The diesel purchases are intended to be converted to "Bio Diesel" to gain "special incentives" from a politically correct City Council - the same City Council that installed dedicated EV parking/charging sites which sit empty 24/7/364.
More straight information would better serve the discussion than the Messianic sales pitches and severely distorted posts that tend to discredit the diesels legitimate appeal.