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I am not sure what you mean by Honda trapping itself with its hybrid technology?
My own take is Honda has used its Civic platform for such concepts as: gasser, gasser hybrid, nat gas, hydrogen, and lastly diesel (in Europe)I think it does not demo E85 simply for it would have to upgrade fuel delivery systems due to the highly corrosive nature of ethanol on aluminum, etc.
Not only does the platform continue to be HUGELY successful, it has defined the segment of ECONOMY cars. It has helped to pioneer the mpg standards within that segment and has demonstrated in the real world the a fore mentioned fuel options. I probably left out a lot of other accolades.
As for the % of increase of diesels, we need only use the growth of the SUV segment as a model. It started off at something like 1% of the population and in 30 years rose to a 12% population. This was hailed on the one hand, as the invasion of the mongol hordes, breeding multiplying uncontrollably and taking over the world ending western civilization, as we know of it. On the other hand, 11% growth over 30 years is LESS than half of 1 per cent per year. .00367. So disingenuous to try like hell to keep diesel out and when it is shown to be impossible for a myriad of reasons to keep it out, vilify diesel for lack of so called "robust growth".
For as much hot air as we devote to the "GREENING" of the environment, cutting back imported oil, yada, yada, the small car segment is less than 25% of the passenger vehicle fleet.
I would say that given that reality trying to shoe horn folks into that segment would be a bit like trying to fit cinderellas glass slipper onto the feet of the wicked sisters. So for sure lets recognize fairy tales and put diesel on the SUV and pick up truck,luxury car markets for the 25-40% better fuel mileage. Its worked for big rigs for literally generations.
The IMA as it was and is currently designed is not capbable enough for midsized vehicles. It is very good for smaller vehicles like the Civic and the just announced smaller vehicle to be built probably in Indiana. The Insight is and was a concept and the HAH was just wrong. Honda needs to be in diesels in the midsized segment ( Accord, Ody, Pilot, MDX, etc ).
I'm not trying to push any agenda one way or the other. As I've said before I'd jump at a chance to use biodiesel and especially a hybrid-diesel that can use bio diesel.
My question though is, 'Are we not likely to see many diesel autos here due to the expense of manufacturing them?' Outside of VW and Honda are all the others shying away from diesel autos for NA? Ford and Toyota seem to be saying so. GM? Nissan? Hyundai?
I have also read in passing, that in some truck plants in the USA, diesel engines are ALREADY being OEM'd or assembled in the USA. They obviously have been for "EXPORT" if I am using the correct terminology.
but if you are in one of the five CARB state you are out of luck unless you find a used one with at least 7500 miles.
as for the future 2008+ diesels, there are lots of pre-announcements but i recommend skepticism.
It will be interesting to see how the problem/s is/are solved. Even with the gasser hybrids, the oem has yet to come out to say there is an app 20% savings for the hybrid portion. A side issue is 20-30% hybrid will be knocked off the stated mpg of 60/50 for the 2008 model year. The real world for example is instructive. My gasser only gets 38-42. Under like conditions I would SWAG the Prius would indeed do 48 mpg (my TDI does 48-52) So the real world advantage for gasser hybrid over gasser only is 48-40=8/48= 16.7%
Irregardless, part of the problem is you have a dual system for having very high torque at low RPMs and operating speeds. So where you would (in theory) reap up to 20%% advantage with a higher reving (atkinson cycle)engine, whose low torque high revs disadvantages are off set with a high tech high torque LOW RPM electric motor, in diesels, I am swagging not more than 10%. This of course is probably not cost and operationally effective. Indeed much has been written about the fact the extra hybrid cost is really not recoverable on an operational level. Even less so for the RANGE of 4500 to 7,500 premium paid. This is not to mention the cinderella cinderfella aspect of cost of replacement battery issues at 6/8 year mark. On the diesel comparison between the gasser/diesel a 500-1000 dollar difference puts B/E at 2 years and or 30,000 miles and in some cases above. Also all this to specific points are/is not very sound bite able.
I would agree that one more option to use alternative fuel: such as bio diesel, is a plus.
Again this is pretty transparent to compare.
(Toyota Tacoma 4 cyl)
2.45 UR
2.69 ULSD
35,000 miles
26/27/56 mpg. = 1,346 gals/1,296 gals/625 gals diesel.
This would equal $3298/$3176/$1681.
MPG savings are 54/52 %
$ savings are 49%/47%.
I would like to see more trucks (small to medium) with diesels. If Dodge had put a small diesel in a Dakota, one would be sitting in my driveway right know.
I own a Jeep Liberty Limited CRD and it has been pretty good. It is fuel efficient and yet powerful. It has been quite reliable too (have only 16K miles on it though).
Give it another model year or two and we will be seeing more diesels. As to the big three, do not count Daimler-Chrysler amongst them. They have lots of diesel powered stuff waiting to get into the U.S.
Yes, it is looking like the only domestic oem to bring a new dieselproduct offering on the market will be Ford in the F-150 model. I read they took a serious hit to their most profitable, meat and potatoes segment. So a diesel F150 would make sense as ANY increase in sales would help. While I would think a diesel motor in the Tahoe series SUV would be the ultimate killer app with targets of 24-30 mpg, the fact of the matter is they are doing REAL well without a diesel offering. Again I am swagging they would see a diesel offering as canabalizing already stellar sales for that series model (GM/Cheverolet/ etc)
Yep. That's what Detroit seems to lack today - foresight. They seem hell-bent on waiting until the bottom falls out of the market segment, and then attempt to catch up. Of course, in the meantime they lose 3-4 years out of the cycle, creating an opening for someone else to eat their lunch. They got lucky with Honda and Toyota having invested in SUVs and trying to milk that market, too, but that may not last.
While I would think a diesel motor in the Tahoe series SUV would be the ultimate killer app with targets of 24-30 mpg
Agreed, that and a minivan with 35/45 mpg. I think the latter is quite achievable with modern diesel technology as long as Detroit doesn't go stupid with the power trip and the "we've got a bigger engine than the competition", as if that was the most important thing these days. Unfortunately, Detroit just seems incapable of getting their heads out of past decades.
I agree, however the Tahoe is a little big for us. We purchased a Ford Explorer new in 1993 and it’s still going strong. If Ford put a diesel in the explorer I might buy one again, however with their last announcement about no diesels in passenger cars, I guess I can kiss that dream good bye. Im assuming from reading the article that only pick-ups and bigger get the diesels.
“Ford had considered diesel engines in cars such as the compact Focus. A diesel usually boosts fuel economy by about 30 percent. A European diesel-powered Focus gets about 50 mpg on the highway. But tougher U.S. emissions rules took effect this month. The rules make all diesel-powered vehicles sold in the United States more expensive because of added filters and other emissions equipment.”
The above quoted statement seems bazaar at best if my facts are correct and please inform if I’m wrong, but: In another four or five years do not the European emissions standards and the US standards end up on a level playing field? If this is true and Ford wants to continue to sell cars in Europe, then do they not have to comply with these standards that should be the same in the US? This should apply to GM as well.
So Ford is going to Kiss off the diesel in the US and lean towards hybrid and ethanol because the diesel will cost too much to meet emissions.
A quick look at Ford web sight and one will notice that the Escape gasser is $6,000 cheaper than the Escape Hybrid. If you put $6,000 worth of filter on the Escape you would have no room to drive it.
If you can get up to 30 mpg on a Sprinter with enormously larger frontal area and weight, I don't see why 40 should be such a challenge on a minivan. Perhaps lower the profile if need be, why not. I think it's achievable, and it would be a big selling point these days.
BTW, I am not a huge fan of diesel in general, but I am tired of funding ME terrorists and pi$$ing money away that could be used to fuel our economy (or my retirement).
Heres a 2.2l CRD Santa Fe --U.K market--, (for comparison) thats does 7.3l/100 km combined, or 39 MPIG average, sorry don't know U.S gallon conversion.
Granted the Santa Fe is about 3800lbs, 400 lbs lighter than outgoing Dodge Caravan. Too bad American trucks/vans are getting fatter not lighter. Too bad. This is what we need in North America ! (F,GM, DCX) Are you listening, anyone home ?
http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=1566&fArticleId=3432863
Bernie, if you want to convert liters per 100 km into US MPG, just divide the liters into 234.34, like so:
mpg = 234.34 / l
where l = liters per 100 km.
It works the other way around as well, so:
l = 234.34 / mpg
I'm in full agreement here especially if the fuel can be created here like biodesel and is replenishable.
This is a nifty little program for converting (hence the name) measurements of all kinds.
I do have a script for converting things for me, but we're getting a bit off topic, I guess.
i try to follow various sprinter newsgroups/etc, and i've never read of anyone getting more than 25 mpg in a sprinter.
i test-drove the tiniest sprinter (cargo version) a couple years ago. it was nifty but the cacophony of highway-road-noise was a dealbreaker. perhaps the tiniest passenger version is not so bad with regard to road noise.
i would definitely consider sprinter as a platform for a conversion-van, but i don't need one of those.
There is no oem Tacoma diesel or otherwise in the world which achieves 56 MPG on the USA mpg chart.
Nice to fantasize about, but not a real vehicle. Sorry. :shades:
Here is this gem too. Carbon emission cap to end vehicle production in Europe?
Snippet:
Gas-guzzling sports cars, 4WDs and people carriers could be priced off European roads within five years after a crackdown on carbon emissions.
quote-
It'll be the first ever diesel Mini to wear the sporty Cooper badge, so it's no surprise that the Cooper D manages 62mph in 9.9 seconds and presses on to 120mph. But, despite being a fun hatch, it's also the cleanest (118g/kg CO2) and most economical (64.2mpg) diesel Mini ever.
-end
And it is not more expensive than a "petrol" Cooper.
1/ reasonable acceleration: approx.10sec 0-60mph.
2/ low weight under 4000lb vehicle and good drag number.
3/ carry 5-6 people in comfort and tow 2k to 4k trailer.
4/ nice style at a reasonable purchase price !
5/ use a 2.2l CRD engine, approx 260lb/ft torque, able to propel 4000lb vehicle with ease and achieve 40mpg.
Which car company will pull this off, first ?
Probably Honda.
That could well be a perfect car for my everyday commute. Alas, I have strong doubts we will ever see it in California.
a diesel Odyssey option
a diesel MDX option ( prolly Pilot also )
a probable diesel Accord option.
Yet another great prospect - if Honda just decided to offer a wagon or a hatchback in Accord line.
I would have to disagree with you about the Liberty. I own a Liberty CRD and get far better FE than many smaller SUVs. On a highway trip I can get greater than 30 MPG if I keep the speed under 65 MPH. Yes, it is not optimized for FE but if driven judiciously can achieve very good FE. Yes, it has the aerodynamics of a cinder block but no small SUV is really all that aerodynamic to begin with. My Liberty weighs 4306 pounds empty. Do you know of any vehicle that is that heavy that can achieve 30+ MPG?
Most of the gassers are under one liter in displacement.
Here is the link:
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/information/how-to-use-the-data-tables.asp#petr- - ol
The link as it is works correctly. You will need to scroll down a bit to see the data I am talking about.
Then you disagree mainly with elias, not me. I have no dog in this hunt. I do not own a Liberty. I talked about a minivan, but elias used the example of a Liberty CRD to show why good FE gains are not likely.
Anyway, I am glad you are getting good results with that engine. That's the name of the game - use your disposable income for something sensible instead of throwing it down the ME rattlerhole.
Since you asked, YES I do. The Highlander Hybrid can do that at 5600+ pounds. :shades:
My cubemate regularly get 30+ for his 4wd HiHy tanks.
Actually, the highland hybrid is 4245 ... not that it makes your point any less valid, however. just wanted to straighten that spec out.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So I guess I don't know a vehicle that weighs as much as the LibCRD that can do 30+ MPG.....
Pretty basic, may be informative for those new to diesel.
03 TDI variant 5 spd
05 passat
06 newbeetle DSG
06 jetta 5-spd
but then again, i tend to drive on PAVEMENT! HELLO!
also my basis for comparison for ground clearance has been about 25 years of driving Z28s and more recently an australian GTO. the Z28s especially had clearance problems in deep snow, but other people are smart enough to avoid driving Z28s in snow. me, i would slap some 245/50-16 eagle M+S tires on the back and have a blast countersteering. the goodyear dudes in california were fascinated with those tires after i drove the car there - they had never seen them before.
i haven't tried the GTO in snow yet because i don't have proper snow tires for it, and the jetta TDI is a way better winter car than a GTO of course.