"Thanks for posting your response; It helps offset much of the amazingly distorted "information" that appears here and elsewhere. Of note; there is no reason at present to believe that the Prius engine, which operates under a much reduced overall load, will not go well beyond 300,000 as many Toyota engines do.
One statement that keeps coming up is this bizarre idea that diesels will routinely go 500,000 miles while gas vehicles may go 100 to 150 with luck. I have driven many to well over 200,000 very hard miles and then sold them for top dollar. Additionally, I am familiar with the cab companies that operate in my area and they are very happy to get 300,000 out of their diesel mercedes, and not at all surprised to get 300,000 out of their gas Mercedes. They now tend to buy gas vehicles new and diesels at used auctions. The diesel purchases are intended to be converted to "Bio Diesel" to gain "special incentives" from a politically correct City Council - the same City Council that installed dedicated EV parking/charging sites which sit empty 24/7/364.
More straight information would better serve the discussion than the Messianic sales pitches and severely distorted posts that tend to discredit the diesels legitimate appeal. "...
As always kdhsyder had a thoughtful and reasonable post. However the problem is not with diesels or hybrids per se, but the LACK of (look back ie HISTORICAL ) information about hybrids with actual 100,200,300k...etc,. miles. Indeed I agree with you that more straight forward information is needed!!
I have asked on this board and others more than a few times for those very persons to post their experiences and the best I got was one that hit (I believe) 200k was rumored to have been bought by Toyota Motor Corp for a complete analysis.??????!!! But still the key question is still left out, how much did Toyota pay for that specimen?? So given the unknown price is this the best that a Prius owner can hope for that Toyota buys back their older hybrid?
I go to ask my local Toyota service department of which I have had an ongoing relationship for the past 20 years and the response to the hybrid is at best GUARDED!!??? I truly have nothing to gain by getting anyone fired for telling the "truth". So I am mindful of the the fact pressing the issue is a bit like encouraging someone else to commit economic suicide.
Contrast this with an example on the diesel side, the information is almost totally transparent.
Just this past weekend, I went to a GTG aks get together One of the reasons for the get to gether was to do 15 timing belt changes. (looking back, historical information)
SO WHAT!! YOU SAY? Well a timing belt change done at 60,000 miles (old style parts) and more normally 100,000 miles. (new style and new upgraded parts also) Any of these folks will on cue drop a dime on VW if so warranted. So distortion?
In addition, I really do not think diesel owners have refused to answer questions put on this board. Indeed I am due a timing belt change in app 13,000 miles. The only real issue I have: due to the new ULSD, should I extend my oil and filter changes from 25,000 mile to 30,000 miles! Do Prius owners go 25k between oil changes?
Seems to me the distortion is more on the hybrid side. Indeed can Prius/hybrid owners GTG to do mechanical work? (wrenching) The argument seems to center around giving it a chance!! Well we are!!
We REALLY want to hear from those 100,200,300,400k hybrid owners!!!! Either they are not out there or MUM's the word or they buy into the concept of economic suicide as described above. What say ye hybrid owners with those mileages?
I am currently down here in Central FL and near the area where the tornados came through a couple of weeks back. I was talking to some of the folks from "Hands with Hearts"... I think that's right... and they told me that the 3 Ford 250 Diesel PU... 1999 versions all now have over 300K miles and going fine.. They all had stick shift trannys...
I think those hybrid cars are kind of like the game the kids play.. musical chairs... in about 8 years of ownership whos gonna own it when the batteries need replacing??? OUCH!!!!!!!!!!
Yes! I have long since been past the point in buying cars "new every two". I must confess when hearing about low mileage, my ear would perk up and eyes would spark. Now the same thing still happens but it has switch to "the more MILES the better."
I think it is generally accepted that diesels will last longer. Why do they last longer? Do you think it is because they are built more strongly than gassers? Or do you think it is because they tend to run at lower rpms over their life? Both? Heard lots of stories @ the Honda dealer re Accords w 300-500k on them.
We REALLY want to hear from those 100,200,300,400k hybrid owners!!!! Either they are not out there or MUM's the word or they buy into the concept of economic suicide as described above. What say ye hybrid owners with those mileages?
Most of the early ones are just getting to 6 yrs old which at average annual usage is about 90-100K miles so we should be getting reports from this year and next onward.
Here is my latest post on my own Prius after 14.5 months.
I should hit 100K around 36 months.
A friend to whom I've sold two Prius just reached the 3rd anniversary on his 2nd as the odo turned over 135,000 miles. No maintenance except 3 sets of tires and normal oil and air filters. He is on the original brakes with 50% still remaining. Total fuel economy over 36 months and 135,000 miles is right at 48 mpg although mid-50's is doable in better weather. Yes his vehicle is his office.
I for one think with reasonable care and some luck of the draw, most gassers are capable of going MUCH longer distances hours/miles than is commonly thought/practiced etc. Indeed my short term goals for my gasser Honda Civic are 305,000 miles (3 belt changes) This is irregardless of the designed rpm or operating range.
In regards to the rpm ranges (low) and diesel's being built better I would say yes and yes. However that is NOT mutually exclusive that gassers CAN'T be built for longer better durability! They in fact can be!!
However diesels HAVE to be built more sturdy. As you know, diesels have compression ratios of 19-25 to 1 vs a "higher performance gasser at MAX 12-1.
The real utility of say 500,000 (cursing in church to an oem who wants to sell you a car yearly) is really in fuel mileage. If I can use my example; VW Jetta gasser 24/31 vs TDI 42/49. I know for example the gasser gets way less than 31 overall but lets use it for discussion purposes. Mine is at 50, but lets use 49/500,000= 16,129/10,204 gals respectively.
I think most accords or other gasser cars that have 300,000 miles on them, all had a major or partial rebuilt.
Diesels routinely go that long without major rebuild of engine...
so the question should not be how much is on the odometer per se, but how long did the original engine last.
SPeaking about my Toyota Previa engine, the dealers all over were very leery of taking in as trade in , my Previa, 1994, with 170,000 babied miles. Mostly freeway , with All the oil additives added in...so it was a well lubricated and protected engine. I showed the dealers this...and they all said " So ? It has more than 150,000 miles...who knows how long it will last ?""
WIth a diesel engine...they may say " wow, 100,000 miles, the engine was just broken in ""
this is actual experience....
Of course, you may have a used car dealer who tells you "" diesels,,bah...pieces of junk...200,000 miles and it is end of life...on the other hand, you should get these Camry/accord/Prius , which should last 400,000 miles...I guarantee it..."" :P
"Your personal choice is certainly valid but your statements are grossly inaccurate: "
OK..I am willing to admit I am wrong when I am . Let us examine the isssues.
Me: "1- most dealerships agree that the Prius engine, the 1.5 liter , may not last longer than 150,000 miles. "
YOu : There is no truth to this because you didn't survery over 650 dealerships in the US. In addition the 1.5L ICE is Toyota's most basic and reliable engine all over the world. Saying it will last only 150,000 miles is ridiculous. Where did you pull this number from?
OK...I admit that I did not speak to every single dealership and mechanic in the US or the whole world. However, I did speak to many around our area. And that is the consensus. I spoke to many used and new car dealerships...and most question the reliability of such a complex car and engine lasting so long. I am sure Toyota has a reliable engine. Our 1995 camry lasted 80,000 miles when it went kaput and not worth the money to fix it. Not bad I guess for 8 years . but I am sure others have lasted longer.
ME: "" 2-The batteries may need replacing after 8 years...a big uncertainty. Replacement cost is $3000 plus !""
you : " This one sets me off more than any other silly statement.
Calling names is not really a good way to debate topics. Please stick to the issue.
There are no Prius' that have needed traction battery replacements due to failure - ever!! Abuse? yes a few. How could you conclude that from zero instances that there is a substantial risk. And why after 8 years? ( The warranty in the CARB states is 10 yrs / 150000 miles. ).
Here you are misleading. THe 2004 Prius has only a 7 year warranty on the batteries. This is a high cost item. Even dealers and salesmen agree deep down that it will be a major issue . OF course, it will be a few years down the line , and we can see if that happens. Maybe you guys have super duper recnargeable non memory self recharging technology batteries...? I was not aware of that...but I admit it could be. Newer Prius have longer battery warranty , when I last checked. SO they did improve on the batteries... WHy IF these were super duper batteries...??
ME:""3- Prius has a purchase premium much higher than diesel VW TDIs. ""
YOU:: You might have investigated too early. With reduced financing now and discounts across the board on all trims now in its 4th year the Prius is generally at invoice or less, such as $500 under invoice. Net for net the Prius is likely thousands less than a Jetta TDI now, when they go back on sale.
Yes...there is a lower price now on the PRIUS> But do not forget, they have to use more energy up front to make the 2 engines...make all the extra connecting parts, and make all those batteries...
So please calculate all those costs to the environment also ..... The Jetta does not have these ancillatory extra costs to our Earth.
ME ""4- Well, PRius does give better mileage than most gassers...but in the end, they still need dino fuel. Still need a gas pump. You can run VW tdi on biodiesel, which is made out of veggie oil and waste oils. Renewable resource !! ""
YOu ""Agree absolutely, and it's the main reason I'd get a diesel over a hybrid.""
Me: ""5- WEll, Jetta is stronger in the protection of the occupants, since its weight and heftier engine helps absorb more of the crash energies. ""
YOu :: This is not accurate.
Well, ratings were made for crashes of a vehicle with another vehicle of same weight and size. THe PRuis is a lighter vehicle...I think there is no question there. They cut and cut the amount of weight..which is good. BUt this sacrifices safety. In a crash with a heavier vehicle...the PRius may be the loser in most cases....
I see lots of wrecked Priuses on ebay...all salvage title....with most of them front end damage..
me: ""But wait til whole life cycle costs are calculated...and I think diesels will come out ahead. You need to buy out of pocket, 2 gasser vehicles, to equal the longevity of a diesel vehicle....that is my guess.... The diesel will not need a rebuild in between, either. ""
YOu:: "Diesel engines are well-know for longevity. However the turbochargers and all the other electronics on VW's are very very very suspect. Yes the diesel may be bulletproof but according to the market and auto surveys you may want to put a bullet in the Jetta first due to all the other annoying costs. ""
We agree here. Most cars have issues. However, would you like to deal with a $1000 turbocharger, or $5000 hybrid drive plus $3000 batteries. ??
According to some of the gurus...most turbochargers for the jetta tdi should last life of car...unless people lug the engine.
I agree with ruking....let us see how many Priuses make it to the 300,000 miles mark...and calculate the total cost for all replaced or rebuilt items....and compare to jetta tdi....
HIstorical data and facts will yield a better understanding.
Just FYI, I was and still am a Prius fan....but I found the TDI to be superior, for my needs. YOu may have a different opinion.
That has actually been my experience also. Since I have had mostly good luck with resale value on most of my sold (gasser) cars, I was/am blown away at the resale value of the TDI. I tracked it pretty closely for the first 60,000 miles, but realistically, the real goal is between 500,0000 and 1,250,000 miles. While this is my goal, the car is a BABE at 87,000 miles!! So in truth until 500,000 to 1,250,000 actually tick away, all I realistically can do is place the odds in my favor and tell you looking forward based upon backward data, my SOTP feelings and experiences. Probably one reason why GTG's are so good. There are plenty of folks on their 2nd and 3rd timing belts!? (100,000 per timing belt)
You didn't answer my question about 25,000 mile OCI's on this thread, but I did glance at another thread where you (?) post,you do 5,000 mile OCI's. If Prius' run so cleanly, why not run longer OCI's? If you are at all concerned, do oil analysis. Just this issue alone makes the practices on the Prius 5x more consumptive of resources than the TDI? If I go to 30,000 miles it would be 6x more.
So that one does not get the feeling this is a diesel vs gasser bias, I run 20,000 mile OCI's Mobil One 0w20 synthetic on a 2004 Honda Civic (ULEV for comparison purposes). (gasser)
Disagree. I don't think most 300 to 500 k gassers are rebuilds. Was your 170k gasser a rebuild? Ruking is right, these newer gassers will last a long time. My Honda dealer told me they routinely see Accords w/300/400k on them. Having said that, I am most interested to see the upcoming CRV diesel.
Here you are misleading. THe 2004 Prius has only a 7 year warranty on the batteries. This is a high cost item. Even dealers and salesmen agree deep down that it will be a major issue . OF course, it will be a few years down the line , and we can see if that happens. Maybe you guys have super duper recnargeable non memory self recharging technology batteries...? I was not aware of that...but I admit it could be. Newer Prius have longer battery warranty , when I last checked. SO they did improve on the batteries... WHy IF these were super duper batteries...??
This is not true at all. Ever since the first Prius came out in 2000 the hybrid system ( including the battery ) has had an 8 yr / 100,000 mile warranty. I know I sold the first one in this area in 2000. For the 2004 model the PZEV-AT rating for the CARB states reauired that the warranty be extended to 10 yr / 150,000 mi.
We agree here. Most cars have issues. However, would you like to deal with a $1000 turbocharger, or $5000 hybrid drive plus $3000 batteries. ??
This is really 'flat world' thinking. 'I don't know what's out there so it must be really, really scary; ( sea monsters, $5000 hybrid drives, $3000 batteries )'. Actual facts indicate that there are no failures. Brakes last well over 100,000 regularly. The 'hybrid drive' needs no special maintenance at all.
Anything else is just supposition or fear of the unknown. No 'hybrid drives' have ever failed ( or none reported by owners or drivers or manufacturers ). Except for abuse no batteries have failed either.
Well, ratings were made for crashes of a vehicle with another vehicle of same weight and size. THe PRuis is a lighter vehicle...I think there is no question there. They cut and cut the amount of weight..which is good. BUt this sacrifices safety. In a crash with a heavier vehicle...the PRius may be the loser in most cases....
Please..... when a Prius or a Jetta crashes head on into a Land Cruiser both will be hurt. The ratings are made to compare vehicles of equal weight. Note that in the EURO/NCAP test the Prius and the Passat are equal ... not the Jetta.
The IIHS ratings for both are the same. While the Jetta does weigh 370# more there are no statistics that the Prius is any less safe. There are no premiums for it over any other similar vehicle, in fact Farmer's Group and Travelers offer discounts for driving a Prius.
Finally this whole Mega-Mileage comparo is truly trivial. Of the millions of midsized vehicles sold in the last 20 years how many of them do you think ever make it to 300,000 miles? This is 15,000 miles/yr every year. Same owner? Maybe 1000 vehicles out of 2 Million annually? Who cares what the value is? Maybe it's $2000 if the body and interior haven't been used too hard, more likely $500 if it's in 20 year condition and it runs.
Missing in action is/are the design parameters for an 80% load on (use any) a gasser engine. Indeed I have never seen a posting.
Highender posted that from a good source, the TDI engine design life is 25,000 hours @ 80% loading. Regular real world loading is along the line of 20/30%. Average speed is between 45/50 mph. This information is usually pretty well hidden and in fact was posted on a TDI related thread and web site.
So while I would agree the proof is in the pudding, the diesel aide SWAGS are given with this design specification in mind. So for example 400/500k miles percentage wise on a Honda Accord might be low or it may be high. It is very hard to do the math with this unknown unit. Given a TDI engine 400/500k /1,250,000 is 32-40 % respectively. By any measure this is on the lower side, or if one were voting this is a minority position. Keep in mind the 1,250,000 miles was arrived at with a 80% loading. So with a load at 20/30%, that figure is CONSERVATIVE.
..."Finally this whole Mega-Mileage comparo is truly trivial. Of the millions of midsized vehicles sold in the last 20 years how many of them do you think ever make it to 300,000 miles? This is 15,000 miles/yr every year. Same owner? Maybe 1000 vehicles out of 2 Million annually? Who cares what the value is? Maybe it's $2000 if the body and interior haven't been used too hard, more likely $500 if it's in 20 year condition and it runs. "...
TRIVIAL TO WHOM? It is MASSIVE TO OEM's!? and that supply logistic chain?
Again the auto salvage figures are instructive. 7% salvage rate per year = app 16.5 M new (needed/wanted/whatever) vehicles per year. Average age of the vehicle fleet 7.0-8.5 years (SUV/PU trucks usually kept longer). Average US driver goes 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year. However this is another area CRYING out for change. It is completely and utterly ridiculous to sound the trump siren call to CUT consumption of resources; (for a host of reasonably reasonable reasons) and continue to use ever INCREASING amounts/percentages of resources!!??
So for example just a 1% DECREASE in the salvage rate 7& to 6% would put app 2M less cars on the road and its corresponding use of energy to get it to market!!! Rulers have been assasinated for far far less!!!
Perhaps I have hit too close to home in saying a lot of this stuff is hot air. (with not enough real execution)
OK...then we agree to disagree. I am sure a good amount of them are rebuilds or had major non-scheduled service...but that is my own personal observations and thru talking with my many mechanic friends.
Also, could be that the ones you see last that long , are the ones who survived to that goal of 300K or 500K. The majority of gassers , except some newer ones or certain marques, generally do not last that long. I do agree that some will. However, most will not.
OTOH, if you research diesel engined vehicles.. .. the norm is to expect them to last very long. THat is why you see lots of 1980s Mercedes diesels still going strong.
Again, If my life depended on the longevity of a vehicle...I would put my bet on a diesel...
You may choose another vehicle..that is your choice...
"I think it is generally accepted that diesels will last longer. Why do they last longer? Do you think it is because they are built more strongly than gassers? Or do you think it is because they tend to run at lower rpms over their life? Both? Heard lots of stories the Honda dealer re Accords w 300-500k on them"
I agree that in general , it is accepted that diesel engines last longer.
1- diesels do run at a lower rpm and are more efficient, in terms of engine functions.
2- diesels , due to compression ignition and having to run at higher psi, have thicker walled engines.
3- less parts that will go wrong.
Yes...you will hear stories of the few accords and camry's or chevy's that last 300K or 500K. That is why they are stories...it is news for them to last that long !!!
On the other hand, you will not hear that much talk about a diesel going over 200,000 or 300,000 miles. WHy ? Because they are a dime a dozen..lots of them that it is NOT news.
OK... my bad...it is 8 year warranty instead of 7 years. I am wondering why the Toyota dealer warned me about the extra cost involved towards the end of the lifespan of the PRius ? What motive would he have ? I mean he sells them. He should say what you are saying...that they last a very long time...but company only warrants them for 8 years, which is a long time also. Why the warning ? IT does not help him...except maybe he is honest about it ?
"This is really 'flat world' thinking. 'I don't know what's out there so it must be really, really scary; ( sea monsters, $5000 hybrid drives, $3000 batteries )'. Actual facts indicate that there are no failures. Brakes last well over 100,000 regularly. The 'hybrid drive' needs no special maintenance at all.
So you are saying that all the extra parts will not result in extra problems, right ? YOu are saying that contrary to common sense and logic...with more parts...there will not be more failures ? OK.... I hope you are right. But most dealerships and mechanics that I spoke to all disagree on this. Let's agree that we disagree. TIme will tell who is right.
Well, ratings were made for crashes of a vehicle with another vehicle of same weight and size. THe PRuis is a lighter vehicle...I think there is no question there. They cut and cut the amount of weight..which is good. BUt this sacrifices safety. In a crash with a heavier vehicle...the PRius may be the loser in most cases....
"The IIHS ratings for both are the same. While the Jetta does weigh 370# more there are no statistics that the Prius is any less safe."
There is something called physics...heavier cars tend to do better in crashes , than lighter cars. I have the pamphlet put out by the IIHS, NHSTA, AAA, and Department of Transportation attesting to this.
" There are no premiums for it over any other similar vehicle, in fact Farmer's Group and Travelers offer discounts for driving a Prius. "
Yes....I do not know, and I am not the person to ask about this...but maybe Prius owners by default have slower cars...therefore the discount ?
But funny that you mention insurance. GO to Ebay, and look up Priuses...and you will see a lot of them. I have been bidding on alot of them...and there are usually lots of them with salvage title. I look at the pics...and all the Prius had was some front end damage , with replacement of bumper, some headlights, some minor other stuff...YET the insurance companies decided to write off the car ?????
And let it be known that this car had a high resale value...why would they write it off ? Could it be that it was not safe to drive after even a minor collision ? Not worth the complex effort to save the car after the Prius rear ends so many other cars ?
Can you explain why so many Priuses rear end other cars ? I was thinking it might be that when you step on brakes, the brakes are not engaged..but the hybrid drive brake energy generator (?) is turned on...thus not making the car stop in time ?? I am not sure...this is clearly supposition on my part.
Why not fix them..since they are so HOT in resale value ? WHy write them off with so little damage ?
IF insurance industry keeps writing off these high priced vechicles...guess who is going to foot the bill ? Actuarial tables will show a higher than normal loss rate ?
I am not sure...
But if you drive a Prius...please be careful....and brake sooner if you can...and leave a few car lengths from car in front. ANd hope that insurance does not increase....
Agree w/your reasons for longevity. Also, as alluded to by r in one of his more coherent posts, the type of owner buying a diesel probably takes better care of his/her car because they are planning to keep and do keep their cars longer. Look how long your old tech gasser lasted. How big was it's engine?
The reality is that you cannot force people to stay in their vehicles longer than they want. If the public wants to change vehicles like they change shoes then that is what will occur. To complain is to 'scream against the wind'.
Now with most vehicles being changed at say 6 year intervals a vehicle that is 18 years old has had 3 owners, at least, and is nearing 300,000 miles.
What would you pay for a 3-owner vehicle and 275,000 miles of wear and tear on it? I'm certain that 99% of the population wouldn't buy it at any price. OK the engine might go another 200K miles but the vehicle smells from age and use. It's worn where it's been used, seats, armrests, dash. Certainly if nothing has been replaced some of the electronics are dead or on the brink. One out of a hundred or one out of a thousand will even sit in this 'piece'.
I think the value may be that if you drive 1 car 275k then you have saved the 80k you would have otherwise spent on replacement cars during that period.
YOU ..."The reality is that you cannot force people to stay in their vehicles longer than they want. If the public wants to change vehicles like they change shoes then that is what will occur. To complain is to 'scream against the wind'.
RESPONSE In theory that is true. Why you think I would disagree with that is really beyond me.
YOU: Now with most vehicles being changed at say 6 year intervals a vehicle that is 18 years old has had 3 owners, at least, and is nearing 300,000 miles.
RESPONSE: I ran a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser 14 years and app 250,000 miles and when I sold it with a total loss of 44% or 3.14% per year or -41.67 per mo. The body and insides easily had 15/16 years left (for a total of 30 years) Indeed in a weak moment, I would rate selling it as a mistake.
YOU: What would you pay for a 3-owner vehicle and 275,000 miles of wear and tear on it? I'm certain that 99% of the population wouldn't buy it at any price. OK the engine might go another 200K miles but the vehicle smells from age and use. It's worn where it's been used, seats, armrests, dash. Certainly if nothing has been replaced some of the electronics are dead or on the brink. One out of a hundred or one out of a thousand will even sit in this 'piece'.
It has no value! "...
RESPONSE: Well some one did pay me 56% of the original purchase price. I had three buyers, 2 with certified checks in hand and one all cash. I probably sold too low!
Rehab in the case you cite would have been FAR cheaper and would not have triggerd say 8.25% on 50,000 on a brand new one. So yes, the STATE/FED would have missed a min of 4125.00 of value!
..."I think the value may be that if you drive 1 car 275k then you have saved the 80k you would have otherwise spent on replacement cars during that period"...
Absolutely! Essentially in the case of the 1987 Landcruiser, I didn't have a a monthly payment for 14 years or 168 months. While I know most folks do not do this if you took the same monthly monies and invested it at say the SP Index return of 12-14% per year.....
I think the true environmentalists are the folks that buy a vehicle and keep it for 15 years or longer. That is why I want something like the new GL320 CDI that I can keep for many years. I don't think most cars today will last that long. They keep making them with thinner sheet metal to cut weight. It is a big mistake IMO. I want more steel surrounding me with all the crazy drivers on the road today. Not less in some little shoe box that will save me a couple hundred bucks a year in gas and fall apart in 8 years. Ruking you keep those old Land Cruisers. The 1960s and 70s models are bringing top dollar. It will be interesting to see if anyone even wants a Prius in 15 years.
To give an example there is a 2000 Jetta TDI with 155k miles bid to $5100 on eBay. There is a 2001 Prius with 165k miles that he would take $3500 buy it now and cannot get over $1125 in bids. I would bet the 2001 Prius cost a lot more than the 2000 Jetta to start with also. Quality maintains better resale value in the long haul. It is a clear title CA Prius they cannot sell for $3500. So much for all the resale crap Toyota wants you to believe.
PS Low book on Edmunds for that Prius is $6615. The dealer cannot even get $2000.
More to this Prius story. SO much for no failed batteries.
This listing is for a 2001 Prius. My son who is in college owns it. The main battery pack was replaced less than 10,000 miles at a total cost of $5,000. The main brain (computer) was replaced less than 500 miles ago at a cost of $1,600. The engine has seized and the successful bidder must tow it. The location of the Prius is in Fullerton, CA at the Cal Fullerton Campus. If you wish to view the car telephone
agree with you also in regards to saving costs as well as resources when one can use a vehicle for a long time.
I remember I used to buy a vehicle for 2 years, then sell it and get another.....
NO more. I will try to see how many miles I can squeeze out of the TDI.
My old tech gasser has 5.7 l ...but it needed a rebuild at 49,000 miles....but I decided to just get a completely new engine , so they delivered a crate engine from Michigan....
Oh? I thought you had a previa w/ 170k that you traded in? I am going to go for 200k on my o2 v6 accord. I'm @ 80k and have had,famous last words,no problems at all. Bad news is it's an auto trans. I have always had manuals but I have tendonitis in my elbow from too many bass fishing hook sets and had to get an auto. I change the auto trans fluid apprx. every 25k. Yes, much better financially to keep your cars as long as possible. Good luck w/ your vw.
Did I not say, except for abuse. We actually damaged a battery pack at our store during the first 6 months we had the first demo because we knew nothing about them in 2000. Toyota replaced it.
Do you realize how questionable this post is? Allegedly the main battery pack was replaced at under 10000 miles, i.e. with 90000 miles left on the warranty, at a cost of $5000.
So what happened? The battery failed due a fault and it was replaced at a cost of $0 ( under warranty ) or the battery was replaced due to abuse at a cost of $5000?
Do you actually believe everything you read? If you were selling a vehicle would you post this 'for sale' item? It sure sounds to me like a troll post. I just posted a Jetta TDI item in the local paper also: '2001 Jetta TDI for sale. Pick up from driveway. All power windows and doors have jammed and dealer can't find solution. Front passenger window is open ( always open ) so entry is possible. Turbocharger may need replacement. Has not been driven in 8 months. Best offer" sound fishy? Who puts this type of for sale ad into the public. Reality check!
Seriously anyone determining the value or durability by posts on ebay of all places is not being serious. That post above is truly over-the-top.
There could be several such as .. tinkering with it, taking it apart and not reassembling everything correctly; .. driving on the battery alone not using the ICE, either by disabling the ICE or running out of gas; .. not driving the car for extended periods without taking steps necessary to protect it from draining; ( essentially disconnecting the main wiring harness )
I suppose I should respond to your disbelief. First I believe the fellow meant 10k miles ago. Not at 10k miles. That would be with 155k miles. Which goes along with Toyota saying the life expectancy of the Prius is 10 years OR 150k miles. In spite of one cabby in Vancouver I still believe the hybrids will have shorter lives than their gas only counterparts. And I can understand your not liking eBay. It is however a large part of the marketplace for cars. There are over 39k vehicles listed today with a big share sold by mainstream car dealers. Of the 74 Prius listed I would say 75% are listed by Toyota dealers. Why would anyone list a vehicle on eBay if they are not serious about selling it. They still have to pay for the listing. I think this brings out the sour grapes attitude of an on the ground salesman.
If you were to park your hybrid in the driveway for 2 weeks in freezing weather without disabling the batteries it would probably destroy the battery. Batteries do not like extreme cold when discharged.
Any Prius which loses the battery at or near 150K is unusual.
There are far more stories of 150K+ Priuses than there are of failed batteries.
One government study showed a decrease in battery function in their large hybrid fleet test, but "decrease in function" does not equal "failure."
The study showed that after 160,000 miles, the Gen 1 Priuses had only 39% of the original battery function, but MPG had only decrease by about 2 MPG after losing 61% of the charging capacity.
That indicates to me that the batteries and the MPG will continue to perform adequately far after 150K miles.
So if we have linear (this would translate: OPTIMISTIC) battery degradation, a projection from the gov studies Larsb cites would put the battery dead somewhere in second 160k miles (320k miles). or another 32k miles or DEAD at 200k total miles I am swagging degradation would actually be quicker when it hits the lower ranges at say 20% of the orginal charge left.
2 weeks is the recommend minimum period without driving it. Many on the other Prius boards have reported going to Hawaii for several weeks and coming back and it starting it right up.
For safety sakes Toyota has a guideline to disconnect the battery if you expect to be gone longer than 2 weeks. On the first one we had back in 2000/2001 we let it sit for 3+ months over the winter without driving it, not knowing to disconnet the battery.
We should have known, it's the same for every vehicle.
It is nice of you to blame yourself for a design failure by Toyota. I left my vehicles for 3 weeks out of every 6 weeks sitting for the last 25 years. I have never come home to a dead battery. My diesel Mercedes Sprinter sat for 2 months without being started. When I got in to move it she started right up like I had just parked it. It is a design problem with the hybrids whether proponents admit it or not.
For larsb: If you consider the battery at 39% being good because the car still runs, I am not going to agree with you. We all know the Toyota built in a huge margin to protect themselves from replacing batteries. That study tells me that they could have used a 61% lighter battery to start with and saved on a lot of cost and environmental damage. Some will see the study as praise for hybrids, some as an indictment.
I agree. The very nature of batteries is deterioration with age. With a lead acid battery you spend $100 every 5-7 years for a new one and that is that. Not $3000 to $5000 as in the hybrids.
Well in 2-3 years well start to get the first reports on Gen 1 Prius' that are reaching the uppper limits of your time frame at 10 years. Time will tell, but thus far the cost of them is.....$ZERO.
If I keep mine 7-8 years and have 250,000 miles on it then if anything goes kaput...it's gone, I don't care what it is. Any vehicle with 250,000 miles is only worth $500 and I've gotten my full use from it. If I have to put more than $100 into it...it's gone.
You are ignoring the facts. Here is a student with a 2001 Prius that loved the car. After 155k miles his battery is kaput and he thinks well it will still be worth $10k if I spend the 5 grand to replace the battery. Then a short time later the computer goes and he spends $1600 for that. Then the engine freezes up and he gives up. Is that the consumers fault or just the way Toyota designed the car? I say they built it to last out the warranty and not much more. So if you get to your 250k miles with few problems you beat the odds.
Gary, carmakers don't want cars to go more than 250,000 miles. People who buy cars as often as I do is how they make their money.
If they designed the car to go "only" 250K miles, then that's pretty darn good of them, because if every car they sold went 250,000 miles before someone bought a new one then they would go broke.
Regardless of what technology is in a car and how long it might last (or not) they want us to buy new ones LONG before 250K miles.
Comments
One statement that keeps coming up is this bizarre idea that diesels will routinely go 500,000 miles while gas vehicles may go 100 to 150 with luck. I have driven many to well over 200,000 very hard miles and then sold them for top dollar. Additionally, I am familiar with the cab companies that operate in my area and they are very happy to get 300,000 out of their diesel mercedes, and not at all surprised to get 300,000 out of their gas Mercedes. They now tend to buy gas vehicles new and diesels at used auctions. The diesel purchases are intended to be converted to "Bio Diesel" to gain "special incentives" from a politically correct City Council - the same City Council that installed dedicated EV parking/charging sites which sit empty 24/7/364.
More straight information would better serve the discussion than the Messianic sales pitches and severely distorted posts that tend to discredit the diesels legitimate appeal. "...
As always kdhsyder had a thoughtful and reasonable post. However the problem is not with diesels or hybrids per se, but the LACK of (look back ie HISTORICAL ) information about hybrids with actual 100,200,300k...etc,. miles. Indeed I agree with you that more straight forward information is needed!!
I have asked on this board and others more than a few times for those very persons to post their experiences and the best I got was one that hit (I believe) 200k was rumored to have been bought by Toyota Motor Corp for a complete analysis.??????!!! But still the key question is still left out, how much did Toyota pay for that specimen??
I go to ask my local Toyota service department of which I have had an ongoing relationship for the past 20 years and the response to the hybrid is at best GUARDED!!??? I truly have nothing to gain by getting anyone fired for telling the "truth". So I am mindful of the the fact pressing the issue is a bit like encouraging someone else to commit economic suicide.
Contrast this with an example on the diesel side, the information is almost totally transparent.
Just this past weekend, I went to a GTG aks get together One of the reasons for the get to gether was to do 15 timing belt changes. (looking back, historical information)
SO WHAT!! YOU SAY? Well a timing belt change done at 60,000 miles (old style parts) and more normally 100,000 miles. (new style and new upgraded parts also) Any of these folks will on cue drop a dime on VW if so warranted. So distortion?
In addition, I really do not think diesel owners have refused to answer questions put on this board. Indeed I am due a timing belt change in app 13,000 miles. The only real issue I have: due to the new ULSD, should I extend my oil and filter changes from 25,000 mile to 30,000 miles!
Seems to me the distortion is more on the hybrid side. Indeed can Prius/hybrid owners GTG to do mechanical work? (wrenching) The argument seems to center around giving it a chance!! Well we are!!
We REALLY want to hear from those 100,200,300,400k hybrid owners!!!! Either they are not out there or MUM's the word or they buy into the concept of economic suicide as described above.
I think those hybrid cars are kind of like the game the kids play.. musical chairs... in about 8 years of ownership whos gonna own it when the batteries need replacing??? OUCH!!!!!!!!!!
Most of the early ones are just getting to 6 yrs old which at average annual usage is about 90-100K miles so we should be getting reports from this year and next onward.
Here is my latest post on my own Prius after 14.5 months.
I should hit 100K around 36 months.
A friend to whom I've sold two Prius just reached the 3rd anniversary on his 2nd as the odo turned over 135,000 miles. No maintenance except 3 sets of tires and normal oil and air filters. He is on the original brakes with 50% still remaining. Total fuel economy over 36 months and 135,000 miles is right at 48 mpg although mid-50's is doable in better weather. Yes his vehicle is his office.
In regards to the rpm ranges (low) and diesel's being built better I would say yes and yes. However that is NOT mutually exclusive that gassers CAN'T be built for longer better durability! They in fact can be!!
However diesels HAVE to be built more sturdy. As you know, diesels have compression ratios of 19-25 to 1 vs a "higher performance gasser at MAX 12-1.
The real utility of say 500,000 (cursing in church to an oem who wants to sell you a car yearly) is really in fuel mileage. If I can use my example; VW Jetta gasser 24/31 vs TDI 42/49. I know for example the gasser gets way less than 31 overall but lets use it for discussion purposes. Mine is at 50, but lets use 49/500,000= 16,129/10,204 gals respectively.
So given your parameters you currently have app 40,300 miles? So you click off app 2,777 per mo?
Prius report
Diesels routinely go that long without major rebuild of engine...
so the question should not be how much is on the odometer per se, but how long did the original engine last.
SPeaking about my Toyota Previa engine, the dealers all over were very leery of taking in as trade in , my Previa, 1994, with 170,000 babied miles. Mostly freeway , with All the oil additives added in...so it was a well lubricated and protected engine. I showed the dealers this...and they all said " So ? It has more than 150,000 miles...who knows how long it will last ?""
WIth a diesel engine...they may say " wow, 100,000 miles, the engine was just broken in ""
this is actual experience....
Of course, you may have a used car dealer who tells you
"" diesels,,bah...pieces of junk...200,000 miles and it is end of life...on the other hand, you should get these Camry/accord/Prius , which should last 400,000 miles...I guarantee it...""
OK..I am willing to admit I am wrong when I am . Let us examine the isssues.
Me: "1- most dealerships agree that the Prius engine, the 1.5 liter , may not last longer than 150,000 miles. "
YOu : There is no truth to this because you didn't survery over 650 dealerships in the US. In addition the 1.5L ICE is Toyota's most basic and reliable engine all over the world. Saying it will last only 150,000 miles is ridiculous. Where did you pull this number from?
OK...I admit that I did not speak to every single dealership and mechanic in the US or the whole world. However, I did speak to many around our area. And that is the consensus. I spoke to many used and new car dealerships...and most question the reliability of such a complex car and engine lasting so long. I am sure Toyota has a reliable engine. Our 1995 camry lasted 80,000 miles when it went kaput and not worth the money to fix it. Not bad I guess for 8 years . but I am sure others have lasted longer.
ME: "" 2-The batteries may need replacing after 8 years...a big uncertainty. Replacement cost is $3000 plus !""
you : " This one sets me off more than any other silly statement.
Calling names is not really a good way to debate topics. Please stick to the issue.
There are no Prius' that have needed traction battery replacements due to failure - ever!! Abuse? yes a few. How could you conclude that from zero instances that there is a substantial risk. And why after 8 years? ( The warranty in the CARB states is 10 yrs / 150000 miles. ).
Here you are misleading. THe 2004 Prius has only a 7 year warranty on the batteries. This is a high cost item. Even dealers and salesmen agree deep down that it will be a major issue . OF course, it will be a few years down the line , and we can see if that happens. Maybe you guys have super duper recnargeable non memory self recharging technology batteries...? I was not aware of that...but I admit it could be. Newer Prius have longer battery warranty , when I last checked. SO they did improve on the batteries... WHy IF these were super duper batteries...??
ME:""3- Prius has a purchase premium much higher than diesel VW TDIs. ""
YOU:: You might have investigated too early. With reduced financing now and discounts across the board on all trims now in its 4th year the Prius is generally at invoice or less, such as $500 under invoice. Net for net the Prius is likely thousands less than a Jetta TDI now, when they go back on sale.
Yes...there is a lower price now on the PRIUS> But do not forget, they have to use more energy up front to make the 2 engines...make all the extra connecting parts, and make all those batteries...
So please calculate all those costs to the environment also ..... The Jetta does not have these ancillatory extra costs to our Earth.
ME ""4- Well, PRius does give better mileage than most gassers...but in the end, they still need dino fuel. Still need a gas pump. You can run VW tdi on biodiesel, which is made out of veggie oil and waste oils. Renewable resource !! ""
YOu ""Agree absolutely, and it's the main reason I'd get a diesel over a hybrid.""
Me: ""5- WEll, Jetta is stronger in the protection of the occupants, since its weight and heftier engine helps absorb more of the crash energies. ""
YOu :: This is not accurate.
Well, ratings were made for crashes of a vehicle with another vehicle of same weight and size. THe PRuis is a lighter vehicle...I think there is no question there. They cut and cut the amount of weight..which is good. BUt this sacrifices safety. In a crash with a heavier vehicle...the PRius may be the loser in most cases....
I see lots of wrecked Priuses on ebay...all salvage title....with most of them front end damage..
me: ""But wait til whole life cycle costs are calculated...and I think diesels will come out ahead. You need to buy out of pocket, 2 gasser vehicles, to equal the longevity of a diesel vehicle....that is my guess.... The diesel will not need a rebuild in between, either. ""
YOu:: "Diesel engines are well-know for longevity. However the turbochargers and all the other electronics on VW's are very very very suspect. Yes the diesel may be bulletproof but according to the market and auto surveys you may want to put a bullet in the Jetta first due to all the other annoying costs. ""
We agree here. Most cars have issues. However, would you like to deal with a $1000 turbocharger, or $5000 hybrid drive plus $3000 batteries. ??
According to some of the gurus...most turbochargers for the jetta tdi should last life of car...unless people lug the engine.
I agree with ruking....let us see how many Priuses make it to the 300,000 miles mark...and calculate the total cost for all replaced or rebuilt items....and compare to jetta tdi....
HIstorical data and facts will yield a better understanding.
Just FYI, I was and still am a Prius fan....but I found the TDI to be superior, for my needs. YOu may have a different opinion.
So that one does not get the feeling this is a diesel vs gasser bias, I run 20,000 mile OCI's Mobil One 0w20 synthetic on a 2004 Honda Civic (ULEV for comparison purposes). (gasser)
This is not true at all. Ever since the first Prius came out in 2000 the hybrid system ( including the battery ) has had an 8 yr / 100,000 mile warranty. I know I sold the first one in this area in 2000. For the 2004 model the PZEV-AT rating for the CARB states reauired that the warranty be extended to 10 yr / 150,000 mi.
We agree here. Most cars have issues. However, would you like to deal with a $1000 turbocharger, or $5000 hybrid drive plus $3000 batteries. ??
This is really 'flat world' thinking. 'I don't know what's out there so it must be really, really scary; ( sea monsters, $5000 hybrid drives, $3000 batteries )'. Actual facts indicate that there are no failures. Brakes last well over 100,000 regularly. The 'hybrid drive' needs no special maintenance at all.
Anything else is just supposition or fear of the unknown. No 'hybrid drives' have ever failed ( or none reported by owners or drivers or manufacturers ). Except for abuse no batteries have failed either.
Well, ratings were made for crashes of a vehicle with another vehicle of same weight and size. THe PRuis is a lighter vehicle...I think there is no question there. They cut and cut the amount of weight..which is good. BUt this sacrifices safety. In a crash with a heavier vehicle...the PRius may be the loser in most cases....
Please..... when a Prius or a Jetta crashes head on into a Land Cruiser both will be hurt. The ratings are made to compare vehicles of equal weight. Note that in the EURO/NCAP test the Prius and the Passat are equal ... not the Jetta.
The IIHS ratings for both are the same. While the Jetta does weigh 370# more there are no statistics that the Prius is any less safe. There are no premiums for it over any other similar vehicle, in fact Farmer's Group and Travelers offer discounts for driving a Prius.
Finally this whole Mega-Mileage comparo is truly trivial. Of the millions of midsized vehicles sold in the last 20 years how many of them do you think ever make it to 300,000 miles? This is 15,000 miles/yr every year. Same owner? Maybe 1000 vehicles out of 2 Million annually? Who cares what the value is? Maybe it's $2000 if the body and interior haven't been used too hard, more likely $500 if it's in 20 year condition and it runs.
Missing in action is/are the design parameters for an 80% load on (use any) a gasser engine. Indeed I have never seen a posting.
Highender posted that from a good source, the TDI engine design life is 25,000 hours @ 80% loading. Regular real world loading is along the line of 20/30%. Average speed is between 45/50 mph. This information is usually pretty well hidden and in fact was posted on a TDI related thread and web site.
So while I would agree the proof is in the pudding, the diesel aide SWAGS are given with this design specification in mind. So for example 400/500k miles percentage wise on a Honda Accord might be low or it may be high. It is very hard to do the math with this unknown unit. Given a TDI engine 400/500k /1,250,000 is 32-40 % respectively. By any measure this is on the lower side, or if one were voting this is a minority position. Keep in mind the 1,250,000 miles was arrived at with a 80% loading. So with a load at 20/30%, that figure is CONSERVATIVE.
TRIVIAL TO WHOM? It is MASSIVE TO OEM's!? and that supply logistic chain?
Again the auto salvage figures are instructive. 7% salvage rate per year = app 16.5 M new (needed/wanted/whatever) vehicles per year. Average age of the vehicle fleet 7.0-8.5 years (SUV/PU trucks usually kept longer). Average US driver goes 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year. However this is another area CRYING out for change. It is completely and utterly ridiculous to sound the trump siren call to CUT consumption of resources; (for a host of reasonably reasonable reasons) and continue to use ever INCREASING amounts/percentages of resources!!??
So for example just a 1% DECREASE in the salvage rate 7& to 6% would put app 2M less cars on the road and its corresponding use of energy to get it to market!!! Rulers have been assasinated for far far less!!!
Perhaps I have hit too close to home in saying a lot of this stuff is hot air.
OK...then we agree to disagree. I am sure a good amount of them are rebuilds or had major non-scheduled service...but that is my own personal observations and thru talking with my many mechanic friends.
Also, could be that the ones you see last that long , are the ones who survived to that goal of 300K or 500K. The majority of gassers , except some newer ones or certain marques, generally do not last that long.
I do agree that some will. However, most will not.
OTOH, if you research diesel engined vehicles.. .. the norm is to expect them to last very long. THat is why you see lots of 1980s Mercedes diesels still going strong.
Again, If my life depended on the longevity of a vehicle...I would put my bet on a diesel...
You may choose another vehicle..that is your choice...
I agree that in general , it is accepted that diesel engines last longer.
1- diesels do run at a lower rpm and are more efficient, in terms of engine functions.
2- diesels , due to compression ignition and having to run at higher psi, have thicker walled engines.
3- less parts that will go wrong.
Yes...you will hear stories of the few accords and camry's or chevy's that last 300K or 500K. That is why they are stories...it is news for them to last that long !!!
On the other hand, you will not hear that much talk about a diesel going over 200,000 or 300,000 miles. WHy ? Because they are a dime a dozen..lots of them that it is NOT news.
:shades:
I am wondering why the Toyota dealer warned me about the extra cost involved towards the end of the lifespan of the PRius ?
What motive would he have ? I mean he sells them. He should say what you are saying...that they last a very long time...but company only warrants them for 8 years, which is a long time also. Why the warning ? IT does not help him...except maybe he is honest about it ?
"This is really 'flat world' thinking. 'I don't know what's out there so it must be really, really scary; ( sea monsters, $5000 hybrid drives, $3000 batteries )'. Actual facts indicate that there are no failures. Brakes last well over 100,000 regularly. The 'hybrid drive' needs no special maintenance at all.
So you are saying that all the extra parts will not result in extra problems, right ? YOu are saying that contrary to common sense and logic...with more parts...there will not be more failures ? OK.... I hope you are right. But most dealerships and mechanics that I spoke to all disagree on this. Let's agree that we disagree. TIme will tell who is right.
Well, ratings were made for crashes of a vehicle with another vehicle of same weight and size. THe PRuis is a lighter vehicle...I think there is no question there. They cut and cut the amount of weight..which is good. BUt this sacrifices safety. In a crash with a heavier vehicle...the PRius may be the loser in most cases....
"The IIHS ratings for both are the same. While the Jetta does weigh 370# more there are no statistics that the Prius is any less safe."
There is something called physics...heavier cars tend to do better in crashes , than lighter cars. I have the pamphlet put out by the IIHS, NHSTA, AAA, and Department of Transportation attesting to this.
" There are no premiums for it over any other similar vehicle, in fact Farmer's Group and Travelers offer discounts for driving a Prius. "
Yes....I do not know, and I am not the person to ask about this...but maybe Prius owners by default have slower cars...therefore the discount ?
But funny that you mention insurance. GO to Ebay, and look up Priuses...and you will see a lot of them. I have been bidding on alot of them...and there are usually lots of them with salvage title. I look at the pics...and all the Prius had was some front end damage , with replacement of bumper, some headlights, some minor other stuff...YET the insurance companies decided to write off the car ?????
And let it be known that this car had a high resale value...why would they write it off ? Could it be that it was not safe to drive after even a minor collision ? Not worth the complex effort to save the car after the Prius rear ends so many other cars ?
Can you explain why so many Priuses rear end other cars ? I was thinking it might be that when you step on brakes, the brakes are not engaged..but the hybrid drive brake energy generator (?) is turned on...thus not making the car stop in time ?? I am not sure...this is clearly supposition on my part.
Why not fix them..since they are so HOT in resale value ? WHy write them off with so little damage ?
IF insurance industry keeps writing off these high priced vechicles...guess who is going to foot the bill ? Actuarial tables will show a higher than normal loss rate ?
I am not sure...
But if you drive a Prius...please be careful....and brake sooner if you can...and leave a few car lengths from car in front. ANd hope that insurance does not increase....
just my 2 cents...your opinion may differ....
Now with most vehicles being changed at say 6 year intervals a vehicle that is 18 years old has had 3 owners, at least, and is nearing 300,000 miles.
What would you pay for a 3-owner vehicle and 275,000 miles of wear and tear on it? I'm certain that 99% of the population wouldn't buy it at any price. OK the engine might go another 200K miles but the vehicle smells from age and use. It's worn where it's been used, seats, armrests, dash. Certainly if nothing has been replaced some of the electronics are dead or on the brink. One out of a hundred or one out of a thousand will even sit in this 'piece'.
It has no value!
RESPONSE In theory that is true. Why you think I would disagree with that is really beyond me.
YOU: Now with most vehicles being changed at say 6 year intervals a vehicle that is 18 years old has had 3 owners, at least, and is nearing 300,000 miles.
RESPONSE: I ran a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser 14 years and app 250,000 miles and when I sold it with a total loss of 44% or 3.14% per year or -41.67 per mo. The body and insides easily had 15/16 years left (for a total of 30 years) Indeed in a weak moment, I would rate selling it as a mistake.
YOU: What would you pay for a 3-owner vehicle and 275,000 miles of wear and tear on it? I'm certain that 99% of the population wouldn't buy it at any price. OK the engine might go another 200K miles but the vehicle smells from age and use. It's worn where it's been used, seats, armrests, dash. Certainly if nothing has been replaced some of the electronics are dead or on the brink. One out of a hundred or one out of a thousand will even sit in this 'piece'.
It has no value! "...
RESPONSE: Well some one did pay me 56% of the original purchase price. I had three buyers, 2 with certified checks in hand and one all cash.
Rehab in the case you cite would have been FAR cheaper and would not have triggerd say 8.25% on 50,000 on a brand new one. So yes, the STATE/FED would have missed a min of 4125.00 of value!
Ain't it grand we have a "voluntary" tax system?
Absolutely! Essentially in the case of the 1987 Landcruiser, I didn't have a a monthly payment for 14 years or 168 months. While I know most folks do not do this if you took the same monthly monies and invested it at say the SP Index return of 12-14% per year.....
To give an example there is a 2000 Jetta TDI with 155k miles bid to $5100 on eBay. There is a 2001 Prius with 165k miles that he would take $3500 buy it now and cannot get over $1125 in bids. I would bet the 2001 Prius cost a lot more than the 2000 Jetta to start with also. Quality maintains better resale value in the long haul. It is a clear title CA Prius they cannot sell for $3500. So much for all the resale crap Toyota wants you to believe.
PS
Low book on Edmunds for that Prius is $6615. The dealer cannot even get $2000.
More to this Prius story. SO much for no failed batteries.
This listing is for a 2001 Prius. My son who is in college owns it. The main battery pack was replaced less than 10,000 miles at a total cost of $5,000. The main brain (computer) was replaced less than 500 miles ago at a cost of $1,600. The engine has seized and the successful bidder must tow it. The location of the Prius is in Fullerton, CA at the Cal Fullerton Campus. If you wish to view the car telephone
I remember I used to buy a vehicle for 2 years, then sell it and get another.....
NO more. I will try to see how many miles I can squeeze out of the TDI.
My old tech gasser has 5.7 l ...but it needed a rebuild at 49,000 miles....but I decided to just get a completely new engine , so they delivered a crate engine from Michigan....
Bought the suburban in 2002....
WE had a 1990 civic . Nice.
I do think gasser cars do last much longer than those made 5 years ago....lots of progress in that area...
No more tuneups every year...
Do you realize how questionable this post is? Allegedly the main battery pack was replaced at under 10000 miles, i.e. with 90000 miles left on the warranty, at a cost of $5000.
So what happened? The battery failed due a fault and it was replaced at a cost of $0 ( under warranty ) or the battery was replaced due to abuse at a cost of $5000?
Do you actually believe everything you read? If you were selling a vehicle would you post this 'for sale' item? It sure sounds to me like a troll post. I just posted a Jetta TDI item in the local paper also:
'2001 Jetta TDI for sale. Pick up from driveway. All power windows and doors have jammed and dealer can't find solution. Front passenger window is open ( always open ) so entry is possible. Turbocharger may need replacement. Has not been driven in 8 months. Best offer" sound fishy? Who puts this type of for sale ad into the public. Reality check!
Seriously anyone determining the value or durability by posts on ebay of all places is not being serious. That post above is truly over-the-top.
.. tinkering with it, taking it apart and not reassembling everything correctly;
.. driving on the battery alone not using the ICE, either by disabling the ICE or running out of gas;
.. not driving the car for extended periods without taking steps necessary to protect it from draining; ( essentially disconnecting the main wiring harness )
Is there a definition of extended period?
Of the 74 Prius listed I would say 75% are listed by Toyota dealers. Why would anyone list a vehicle on eBay if they are not serious about selling it. They still have to pay for the listing. I think this brings out the sour grapes attitude of an on the ground salesman.
There are far more stories of 150K+ Priuses than there are of failed batteries.
One government study showed a decrease in battery function in their large hybrid fleet test, but "decrease in function" does not equal "failure."
The study showed that after 160,000 miles, the Gen 1 Priuses had only 39% of the original battery function, but MPG had only decrease by about 2 MPG after losing 61% of the charging capacity.
That indicates to me that the batteries and the MPG will continue to perform adequately far after 150K miles.
PS To STAY ON TOPIC:
EPA Certifies that Clean Diesels are making the grade
No oem or aftermarket help, sans purchasing either the whole bank (up to 40 modules) or at $128 per module.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
So if we have linear (this would translate: OPTIMISTIC) battery degradation, a projection from the gov studies Larsb cites would put the battery dead somewhere in second 160k miles (320k miles). or another 32k miles or DEAD at 200k total miles
For safety sakes Toyota has a guideline to disconnect the battery if you expect to be gone longer than 2 weeks. On the first one we had back in 2000/2001 we let it sit for 3+ months over the winter without driving it, not knowing to disconnet the battery.
We should have known, it's the same for every vehicle.
For larsb:
If you consider the battery at 39% being good because the car still runs, I am not going to agree with you. We all know the Toyota built in a huge margin to protect themselves from replacing batteries. That study tells me that they could have used a 61% lighter battery to start with and saved on a lot of cost and environmental damage. Some will see the study as praise for hybrids, some as an indictment.
If I keep mine 7-8 years and have 250,000 miles on it then if anything goes kaput...it's gone, I don't care what it is. Any vehicle with 250,000 miles is only worth $500 and I've gotten my full use from it. If I have to put more than $100 into it...it's gone.
If they designed the car to go "only" 250K miles, then that's pretty darn good of them, because if every car they sold went 250,000 miles before someone bought a new one then they would go broke.
Regardless of what technology is in a car and how long it might last (or not) they want us to buy new ones LONG before 250K miles.
:shades: