quote- Diesel engines are not common in cars sold in America. Sam Sarpong, a Volkswagen salesman at Fitzgerald Auto Mall in Frederick, said VWs with the new engines will be available this summer, and will be labeled 2008 cars. Diesels are popular with his customers, he said. The ones that come to the dealership usually sell quickly.
"It's supply and demand," he said. "In our area diesels are popular because most people travel long distances to work." -end
Not a technical article, however, it is nice to see positive spin on diesel vehicles in the press.
I was not able to access the rest of the article to gather some of the specs for the 2.0 diesel. Where there any heads up for the usual stuff like hp/#ft T, mpg? Thanks.
Its a monster!!
Did a google and got this
..."The engine develops 140 horsepower and a robust 240 ft-lbs. of twist. "...
All this within very very very short span of model years!! WOO HOO!!! 2004-2006= 2 model years.
Think about how long it took the gasser side to come up with Prius and Honda hybrid. MORE than 1 generation!!!???. (30 years-33 years) Performance parameters are truly not exciting, except for 48 mpg!!??
quote- First, though, Honda will kick off with its 2.2-2.4-litre class, four-cylinder “super clean” turbodiesel that’ll run in the next Stateside Accord, appearing around 2009. This is expected be a breakthrough engine, with emissions as clean as clean as a modern gasoline powerplant, able to meet even the toughest regulations in the world (i.e. the EPA’s Tier II Bin 5 regulations).
Once this Accord diesel goes on sale, the Accord hybrid will be quietly retired. Honda’s basic eco strategy going forward will be to keep hybrids for Civic-class and below offerings, with diesels for Accord-class models and over. -end
Accord diesel is #1 on my list for vehicle purchases in the future.
Yes, I would also give it serious consideration come replacement time, since 2 of my suv's are on the down side of a 20 year time line. 11/13 years. By 2009 they will be 13/15 years young. Given Honda a couple of years and maybe a gen or two to get the kinks out. I will be ready!
Just thinking out loud, a diesel motor on the Honda Civic would keep the Civic as THE economy car LEADER big time!!! The Civic has had the history of (diesel overseas) gasser, gasser hybrid, natural gas, hydrogen (FX adaptation) and who knows what else.
All over the CNBC tv news rag today. The oil sector is in "freefall"?? A real consequence of so called no winter!!?? (aka global warming) OPEC wants to have emergency meetings to stop the free fall of CRUDE oil prices!!?? PRES Chavez must really hate that sulfuric PRES DEVIL EH? Cheaper unleaded regular and diesel prices, must be bad eh?
there's an article on motherjones.com about "hyper-milers", and a guy who supposedly gets 59 mpg with a 4 cylinder gasser accord by violating all sorts of rules of the road, among other things. it's insane, but it relates to diesels because it shows how the hyper-miler TDI folks get way above 59 mpg. imho, decreasing safety for oneself and other motorists just to increase mpg is a very bad idea. http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/01/king_of_the_hypermilers.html
Wayne used to post on various threads on edmunds.com. Wayne missed his calling. He should have been 5 ft 1 in tall and weighed in at 98 #'s. That would be worth app .5 to 2 mpg. He'd do better in a diesel, but hey, I for one told him that.
how a dude like that *doesn't* drive a diesel is beyond me. maybe for him a diesel car would be too much mpg rapture - just too many DSM-IV diagnoses for one man to bear.
how much weight would he save if he filled all the unused volume in the trunk/panels with custom-fit helium-balloons?
you too can use helium balloons to increase your vehicle mpg if you sign up for my multi-level-marketing scheme! call now!
Yeah, I do scratch my head a tad in that the TDI on a long down hill will literally not draw fuel. So for example, if you have a 10 mile down hill and get say 59 mph on the straights on the long downhill one would tend to get closer to 69. (in my own experience 4/5 mpg, but speeds were closer to xxx digits. So no fuel, draw no brakes, (dont even have to shut the engine down creating an EXTREME safety hazard- feel the rush of cheating DEATH)
fuel injected cars for decades have not drawn fuel in 'overrun' condition, from the modern TDIs to my 1989 IRAQ-Z and beyond... what's the safety hazard?
The article makes reference to turning off the engine while moving. You might want to ask your local law enforcement if they would approve of this practice. You in fact made reference and comment it in a past post
If what you are saying is true, (I know it to be true on the TDI) They are laboring under a misconception.
..."Buckle up tight, because this is the death turn," says Wayne. Death turn? We're moving at 50 mph. Wayne turns off the engine"...
Just drove back from FL yesterday. Overall FE was 28.2 MPG for a 73 MPH average cruising speed in my Jeep Liberty CRD. Cruised at 65 MPH for the first 300 miles and got 31.6 MPG. Not to shabby considering I had 450 pounds of baggage, two cats, my wife and myself on board. You will not get that FE with a THH or Ford Escape Hybrid loaded the way my CRD was.
Now for the question. Some of the hybrid standard bearers have quoted their lifetime FE. One in particular in a now closed forum quoted around 49 MPG. In a recent forum that same person quoted a lower lifetime MPG and that person's Prius has in excess of 67K miles on it. Other Prius owners have complained of decreasing FE after an oil change at the dealer. I am a little confused here. If Prius owner's driving habits are constant and the traffic they drive in is pretty much unchanged, then why the decrease in FE? Yes, it is small but does it portend worsening efficiency and FE as the vehicle ages? Where is the efficiency being lost? FE in my diesel has been improving as the miles accumulate. I am nearly at 16K miles on my CRD. :confuse: :confuse:
31.6 mpg is almost unreal! If I got that in 94/96/97 TLC Toyota Landcruiser's, I probably would not have gotten 2 smaller cars.
I am not all that acquainted with the technical data for the CRD, BUT if it is anything like the Jetta TDI you will not experience full compression till 50,000 to 60,000 miles. If it is similar, translated: you will not experience the best mpg till app 45 to 50k.
Contrast that with the Prius (gasser portion) full break in is in contrast relatively early at less than 2k.
Engine: 2.8L four cylinder turbodiesel built by V.M. Motori for Daimler-Chrysler. Generates 160 HP @ 3800 RPM, 295 lb-ft of torque @ 1800 RPM with 80+% of the torque available from 1400 - 3200 RPM. The block is cast iron and the cylinder bores are sleeved. The head is aluminum alloy, sixteen valve DOHC design. The fuel injection system is of the common rail type with injection pressure of 1600 Bar (23,000 psi). The five speed automatic transmission was lifted from the Dodge RAM 1500 trucks that get the Hemi engine. Before I forget, the crankshaft is made from drop forged steel and the surfaces have been nitrided for extra durability. V.M. Motori has been building diesels since 1947.
Vehicle weight is 4306 lbs empty and has the aerodynamics of a cinderblock. The chassis/suspension is made from steel and cast iron. It is a four wheel drive vehicle (not full time AWD like Subaru).
I don't know the specifics but it can very well be the environment, weather especially.
While the lifetime average over 37K miles is 48.3 now for my Prius it's about 51 in spring/Summer and 45 in winter. It's a common environmental consideration that most drivers don't take into account.
Ditto my last 4 ICE's. 34 mpg Hwy in mild weather and 30 mpg in winter.
i wonder how fast this guy goes through tires, and if anyone has told him that tires are petroleum products, too.
i think this idiot is going to hurt or kill someone, frankly.
"yeah, i slid off the road and ran over that woman and her dog, but i was just trying to keep up my momentum to save 3 cents in gas on that particular turn." .... good job!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mitsubishi will sell passenger vehicle diesels in the US by 2010. There will be more diesel's to choose from than hybrids in 2009 based on BMW, Chrysler and Jeep, VW, Audi, Mercedes, Honda, Subaru and Ford all introducing new diesel models.
It is a shame that US bungled it's diesel regulations by having the highest sulfur fuel in the world while at the same time having the most stringent emissions standards in the world. CARB is responsible for the emissions and EPA for the fuel.
We will finally have some of the same choices of the rest of the world when we purchase a vehicle.
Appears that Toyota will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the US diesel market which is ironic since Toyota has excellent diesel engines offered in Europe and has had a diesel engine that passed EPA 50 state regs. for several years that Toyota decided not to market in the USA.
hi there king! sorry for any misunderstanding/misconception. turning off the engine while driving is insane and illegal as far as i know. driving with gear-selector in neutral is also illegal around here, but it's a lot less dangerous imho. some of you may be familiar with the "route 2 hill" west of boston. around 1979 i rode with a coworker down that hill in his brand-new standard-shift/no-options AMC PACER (no power steering, no steering-wheel interlock). he shut off the engine at the top of the hill, and we coasted all the way to a "steve's ice cream" off the highway near the bottom of the hill. oh, the memories!
Just when the price of crude oil is in a southern free fall, rumors abound that President Hugo Chavez wants to nationalize (probably without paying FMV the Venuezulian oil fields.
Isuzu should have been only a commercial vehicle manufacturer and parts supplier a LONG time ago, IMHO.
I know it wasn't long ago I read that mitsu is thinking about leaving the US if they can't jack up their sales. We'll see. I'm not sure if the 2% increase this past december over december '05 is enough.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I am not talking about environment here. Maybe you missed what I was trying to ask. In some of the questions/comments people complained/stated that FE fell after and oil change or over time. What I find confusing is how an oil change can cause FE to drop.
I find one thing interesting in you response. Gassers are still significantly impacted by temperature. A six MPG hit in colder weather, ouch. My Jeep Liberty CRD took no FE hit during the cold weather last winter. My old 1981 Isuzu I-Mark diesel took a one MPG hit in colder weather way back when I had it. Commuting FE went from 38 MPG down to 37 MPG.
..."Prius it's about 51 in spring/Summer and 45 in winter. It's a common environmental consideration that most drivers don't take into account."...
The gasser mileage hit is a very very good point. :)Percentage and supply side that is HUGE at 12%. Again I would swag this would probably be a higher % for NON hybrids and add to that the volumes of demand would be far higher also. Sort of a backwards compliment to diesel? Upshot: ADVANTAGE DIESEL? As diesel consumes even far less than gassers due to winter conditions!?
winter2, it's not an issue of gasser versus diesel when cold weather hits. A combination of things occur, many of which are not related to what kind of engine you have in your vehicle.
NO ENGINE (including diesels) operates at peak engine efficiency until it reaches normal operating temps.
Cold weather makes tires lose air and makes the rubber harder, meaning more rolling resistance on the tires. Engine type does not matter.
Winter fuel blends normally reduce MPG also. Engine type does not matter.
Generally speaking, colder weather in many areas means "rain, snow, or slush or ice" on the roads - these things add additional resistance which the tires must push out of the way to contact the road, so they hurt MPG in that way. Engine type does not matter.
Additional idling uses more fuel and hurts overall MPG, and many people in cold climes by habit or necessity are warming their cars up in the morning. That is good practice to stay warm, but BAD for MPG numbers. While idling in your garage or driveway or carport, it is getting 0 miles to the gallon !!
And you cannot put a "blanket number" on how much MPG will drop based on engine type. Some cars, regardless of engine, handle the cold weather better and some worse. Just because you have owned or happen to own a diesel powered vehicle which YOU BELIEVE does not lose MPG in the cold does not mean that it does not happen to other owners. It happens to a large LARGE percentage of owners of various engine types.
Even electric car owners suffer lower range in the cold. :shades:
I find that cold weather has about a 10% detrimental effect on gasser fuel economy. It's somewhat higher for hybrids because part of the gain in fuel economy is the ability to shut down the ICE and burn no fuel.
Thus in winter, at the beginning certainly, the ICE has to run somewhat longer and stronger to heat the fluids, heat the cabin and heat up the catalytic converter. It cannot shut down as quickly. Combine this with a short trip of 10-15 min and there is a double whammy. The ICE gets everything up to a good temperature and prepares to go into it's most efficient mode... and it's shut down for 4,5, or 10 hours again.
I don't know what might be the significance of the oil change phenomenon. I've had 5 already in the first year and did not notice anything different from one to the other.
There is no winter blend for diesel fuel. Additives are put into the fuel to prevent wax formation at lower temperatures. In really cold climates you might use #1 diesel but again, that is being displaced by additive treated #2 fuel.
Cold weather makes tires lose air and makes the rubber harder
Kind of contradictory here. Softer tires will give you more rolling resistance, but harder rubber gives you less rolling resistance. They do not necessarily offset each other. And since most tires are "all season" these days, the compounding of the rubber makes it less temperature sensitive than in the past and the rubber tends to stay softer in general.
Looked at the posts in the link you put in your post. Some have had a mileage loss, others have not. I have not had a decrease in FE. Also the switch to ULSD has had no impact on FE either.
i think the winter mpg drop is about the same for gassers & diesels - or maybe worse for diesels. and yes, a big factor is the kerosene or whatever they add to the diesel to keep it from gelling. anyway, my TDIs have all shown about a 10% mpg drop on winter fuel and/or cold weather. i saw this again on my drive to orlando a couple weeks ago. mpg was above 47 mpg down south on the southern ULSD - except when i ran the AC when it dropped to as low as 40 mpg. that big impact from AC was a surprise. i'll benchmark that a bunch more next summer (some like it hot.), or my redsox springtraining drive from boston -> orlando/fort-myers and back in a couple months. winter2, i don't see how you can correctly say that the winter diesel fuel is not a "blend". wicked semantic nitpicking there, dude man. btw, have any of you set up carspace pages? they are pretty cool. one who is near/dear to one of the diesel forums has posted a stunning/smiling self-photo that made me forget all about vehicles & diesels. :surprise:
Gasoline is seasonally blended for volatility and emissions. Not the case for diesel. Number 2 diesel is number 2 diesel. There is no winter blend for diesel. The fuel is treated with an additive to prevent wax from coming out of solution at cold temperatures. Since ULSD has less lubricity than the previous LSD, I do not think the refiners would cut their diesel fuel with number 1 diesel which has even less lubricity. From the information I am obtaining, additives are being used to reduce the temperature at which wax comes out of solution.
While this is not a passenger vehicle, I still find it very interesting and feel that there are likely huge opportunities to decrease energy usage and emissions in the commercial truck fleet. Nice to see Walmart doing something positive.
OK with B20 The trials were done on three 2007 Arctic Cat ATVs equipped with 700 cc twin-cylinder Lombardini diesel engines. There were no significant differences between B20 and standard No. 2 diesel fuel or No. 1 winter blend diesel fuel for emissions, sound levels or hot-start capability at air temperatures of 95 degrees Fahrenheit.
B20 as a winter blend? Not likely. Biodiesel is less tolerant of cold than dino diesel is. Number 1 diesel is not a winter blend fuel. Number 1 diesel can be added to number 2 diesel to lower the wax point of number 2 diesel. There are some diesel engines designed to run on straight number 1 diesel. Also the BTU content of number 2 diesel fuel with some number 1 added is less than one percent of the BTU content of straight number 2 diesel.
Also, winter blend gasoline has significantly less energy than summer blend gasoline does. Articles state anywhere from two to eight percent less energy for winter blend gasoline.
The article you get your information from (found it) is from 2004.
"DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. can't make money selling cars with diesel engines in the United States. So it will use diesels only in trucks in North America."
BTW, what is the last time Ford tried to sell a diesel-powered car? Shouldn't they use the past tense in that statement above? As in "couldn't" instead of "can't"?
It's strange they won't even offer it as an option. :confuse:
"At this point in time, we would say that GTDI (gasoline turbocharged direct injection) seems to be the better alternative."
I can only assume that this “gasoline turbocharged direct injection” engine will require premium gasoline as do most turbo gas engines. So now the continuing cost of operation is going to be higher and I’m probably buying more product than if I were using diesel.
"DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. can't make money selling cars with diesel engines in the United States. So it will use diesels only in trucks in North America."
This is the second such comment within the week.
Toyota previously stated that it finds hybrid technology to be more cost effective than diesel although it probably would offer a diesel in the future. I tend to see this as Toyota promoting it's own agenda and that Toyota may not have the volume that others have so it's production costs are somewhat higher.
Ford OTOH is significantly bigger than Toyota in Europe so it's volume is susbstantial but it too doesn't see the cost benefit to selling diesels here at present. GM is bigger yet than Ford is in Europe and I don't hear anything from them except that they have jumped with boh feet first onto the hybrid bandwagon in the US.
So is there more potential profit for an auto maker in going the hybrid route rather than the diesel route? Since these big manufacturers are looking 5-10 years out at a minimum I'd have thought that there would be more by now. Except for Honda, which has trapped itself with it's hybrid technology and VW of course, there is almost no mention of diesel autos for the NA market in the press.
Now trucks and SUV's are different. This makes all the sense in the world if they could all be converted to diesel and FE could be increased from the high teens to the high 20's.
Do the Ford and Toyota comments and the lack of comments from GM mean that they don't find the economies of scale to be sufficient yet to a) import diesel from their European operations; or b) install diesel production facilities here in the US? I don't know.
Comments
I had to laugh at this one. Have to love that British humor....
quote-
Diesel engines are not common in cars sold in America. Sam Sarpong, a Volkswagen salesman at Fitzgerald Auto Mall in Frederick, said VWs with the new engines will be available this summer, and will be labeled 2008 cars. Diesels are popular with his customers, he said. The ones that come to the dealership usually sell quickly.
"It's supply and demand," he said. "In our area diesels are popular because most people travel long distances to work."
-end
Not a technical article, however, it is nice to see positive spin on diesel vehicles in the press.
Its a monster!!
Did a google and got this
..."The engine develops 140 horsepower and a robust 240 ft-lbs. of twist. "...
vs 2003 90/155 WOW
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/23/2008-vw-jetta-tdi-spotted-in-the-us/
Think about how long it took the gasser side to come up with Prius and Honda hybrid. MORE than 1 generation!!!???. (30 years-33 years) Performance parameters are truly not exciting, except for 48 mpg!!??
quote-
First, though, Honda will kick off with its 2.2-2.4-litre class, four-cylinder “super clean” turbodiesel that’ll run in the next Stateside Accord, appearing around 2009. This is expected be a breakthrough engine, with emissions as clean as clean as a modern gasoline powerplant, able to meet even the toughest regulations in the world (i.e. the EPA’s Tier II Bin 5 regulations).
Once this Accord diesel goes on sale, the Accord hybrid will be quietly retired. Honda’s basic eco strategy going forward will be to keep hybrids for Civic-class and below offerings, with diesels for Accord-class models and over.
-end
Accord diesel is #1 on my list for vehicle purchases in the future.
Just thinking out loud, a diesel motor on the Honda Civic would keep the Civic as THE economy car LEADER big time!!! The Civic has had the history of (diesel overseas) gasser, gasser hybrid, natural gas, hydrogen (FX adaptation) and who knows what else.
oh no. not the "gw" word. ugh. don't get me started, please.
as to the point ... yeah, just what the heck is their problem? god forbid prices DROP at the pump!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/01/king_of_the_hypermilers.html
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maybe for him a diesel car would be too much mpg rapture -
just too many DSM-IV diagnoses for one man to bear.
how much weight would he save if he filled all the unused volume in the trunk/panels with custom-fit helium-balloons?
you too can use helium balloons to increase your vehicle mpg if you sign up for my multi-level-marketing scheme! call now!
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If what you are saying is true, (I know it to be true on the TDI) They are laboring under a misconception.
..."Buckle up tight, because this is the death turn," says Wayne. Death turn? We're moving at 50 mph. Wayne turns off the engine"...
Now for the question. Some of the hybrid standard bearers have quoted their lifetime FE. One in particular in a now closed forum quoted around 49 MPG. In a recent forum that same person quoted a lower lifetime MPG and that person's Prius has in excess of 67K miles on it. Other Prius owners have complained of decreasing FE after an oil change at the dealer. I am a little confused here. If Prius owner's driving habits are constant and the traffic they drive in is pretty much unchanged, then why the decrease in FE? Yes, it is small but does it portend worsening efficiency and FE as the vehicle ages? Where is the efficiency being lost? FE in my diesel has been improving as the miles accumulate. I am nearly at 16K miles on my CRD. :confuse: :confuse:
I am not all that acquainted with the technical data for the CRD, BUT if it is anything like the Jetta TDI you will not experience full compression till 50,000 to 60,000 miles. If it is similar, translated: you will not experience the best mpg till app 45 to 50k.
Contrast that with the Prius (gasser portion) full break in is in contrast relatively early at less than 2k.
Engine: 2.8L four cylinder turbodiesel built by V.M. Motori for Daimler-Chrysler. Generates 160 HP @ 3800 RPM, 295 lb-ft of torque @ 1800 RPM with 80+% of the torque available from 1400 - 3200 RPM. The block is cast iron and the cylinder bores are sleeved. The head is aluminum alloy, sixteen valve DOHC design. The fuel injection system is of the common rail type with injection pressure of 1600 Bar (23,000 psi). The five speed automatic transmission was lifted from the Dodge RAM 1500 trucks that get the Hemi engine. Before I forget, the crankshaft is made from drop forged steel and the surfaces have been nitrided for extra durability. V.M. Motori has been building diesels since 1947.
Vehicle weight is 4306 lbs empty and has the aerodynamics of a cinderblock. The chassis/suspension is made from steel and cast iron. It is a four wheel drive vehicle (not full time AWD like Subaru).
Is that enough technical data?
While the lifetime average over 37K miles is 48.3 now for my Prius it's about 51 in spring/Summer and 45 in winter. It's a common environmental consideration that most drivers don't take into account.
Ditto my last 4 ICE's. 34 mpg Hwy in mild weather and 30 mpg in winter.
It was taking the turn at 50 mph, even though it was posted at 25 mph...
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On the Prius side, I think it would have leveled off and begin a very gradual fall off.
i think this idiot is going to hurt or kill someone, frankly.
"yeah, i slid off the road and ran over that woman and her dog, but i was just trying to keep up my momentum to save 3 cents in gas on that particular turn." .... good job!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mitsubishi will sell passenger vehicle diesels in the US by 2010.
There will be more diesel's to choose from than hybrids in 2009 based on BMW, Chrysler and Jeep, VW, Audi, Mercedes, Honda, Subaru and Ford all introducing new diesel models.
It is a shame that US bungled it's diesel regulations by having the highest sulfur fuel in the world while at the same time having the most stringent emissions standards in the world. CARB is responsible for the emissions and EPA for the fuel.
We will finally have some of the same choices of the rest of the world when we purchase a vehicle.
Appears that Toyota will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the US diesel market which is ironic since Toyota has excellent diesel engines offered in Europe and has had a diesel engine that passed EPA 50 state regs. for several years that Toyota decided not to market in the USA.
Pretty good example of why government works as it does? Left hand has no ideal what the right hand is doing?
some of you may be familiar with the "route 2 hill" west of boston. around 1979 i rode with a coworker down that hill in his brand-new standard-shift/no-options AMC PACER (no power steering, no steering-wheel interlock). he shut off the engine at the top of the hill, and we coasted all the way to a "steve's ice cream" off the highway near the bottom of the hill. oh, the memories!
Some "devil" haters can't take a joke!!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Isuzu may be commercial vehicle only by 2010, Mitsu on the other hand is has a positive outlook.
I know it wasn't long ago I read that mitsu is thinking about leaving the US if they can't jack up their sales. We'll see. I'm not sure if the 2% increase this past december over december '05 is enough.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I am not talking about environment here. Maybe you missed what I was trying to ask. In some of the questions/comments people complained/stated that FE fell after and oil change or over time. What I find confusing is how an oil change can cause FE to drop.
I find one thing interesting in you response. Gassers are still significantly impacted by temperature. A six MPG hit in colder weather, ouch. My Jeep Liberty CRD took no FE hit during the cold weather last winter. My old 1981 Isuzu I-Mark diesel took a one MPG hit in colder weather way back when I had it. Commuting FE went from 38 MPG down to 37 MPG.
The gasser mileage hit is a very very good point. :)Percentage and supply side that is HUGE at 12%. Again I would swag this would probably be a higher % for NON hybrids and add to that the volumes of demand would be far higher also. Sort of a backwards compliment to diesel? Upshot: ADVANTAGE DIESEL? As diesel consumes even far less than gassers due to winter conditions!?
NO ENGINE (including diesels) operates at peak engine efficiency until it reaches normal operating temps.
Cold weather makes tires lose air and makes the rubber harder, meaning more rolling resistance on the tires. Engine type does not matter.
Winter fuel blends normally reduce MPG also. Engine type does not matter.
Generally speaking, colder weather in many areas means "rain, snow, or slush or ice" on the roads - these things add additional resistance which the tires must push out of the way to contact the road, so they hurt MPG in that way. Engine type does not matter.
Additional idling uses more fuel and hurts overall MPG, and many people in cold climes by habit or necessity are warming their cars up in the morning. That is good practice to stay warm, but BAD for MPG numbers. While idling in your garage or driveway or carport, it is getting 0 miles to the gallon !!
Diesel owners losing MPG in cold weather
And you cannot put a "blanket number" on how much MPG will drop based on engine type. Some cars, regardless of engine, handle the cold weather better and some worse. Just because you have owned or happen to own a diesel powered vehicle which YOU BELIEVE does not lose MPG in the cold does not mean that it does not happen to other owners. It happens to a large LARGE percentage of owners of various engine types.
Even electric car owners suffer lower range in the cold. :shades:
Thus in winter, at the beginning certainly, the ICE has to run somewhat longer and stronger to heat the fluids, heat the cabin and heat up the catalytic converter. It cannot shut down as quickly. Combine this with a short trip of 10-15 min and there is a double whammy. The ICE gets everything up to a good temperature and prepares to go into it's most efficient mode... and it's shut down for 4,5, or 10 hours again.
I don't know what might be the significance of the oil change phenomenon. I've had 5 already in the first year and did not notice anything different from one to the other.
Couple of points you make here I disagree with.
Winter fuel blends normally reduce MPG also
There is no winter blend for diesel fuel. Additives are put into the fuel to prevent wax formation at lower temperatures. In really cold climates you might use #1 diesel but again, that is being displaced by additive treated #2 fuel.
Cold weather makes tires lose air and makes the rubber harder
Kind of contradictory here. Softer tires will give you more rolling resistance, but harder rubber gives you less rolling resistance. They do not necessarily offset each other. And since most tires are "all season" these days, the compounding of the rubber makes it less temperature sensitive than in the past and the rubber tends to stay softer in general.
Looked at the posts in the link you put in your post. Some have had a mileage loss, others have not. I have not had a decrease in FE. Also the switch to ULSD has had no impact on FE either.
anyway, my TDIs have all shown about a 10% mpg drop on winter fuel and/or cold weather. i saw this again on my drive to orlando a couple weeks ago. mpg was above 47 mpg down south on the southern ULSD - except when i ran the AC when it dropped to as low as 40 mpg. that big impact from AC was a surprise. i'll benchmark that a bunch more next summer (some like it hot.), or my redsox springtraining drive from boston -> orlando/fort-myers and back in a couple months.
winter2, i don't see how you can correctly say that the winter diesel fuel is not a "blend". wicked semantic nitpicking there, dude man.
btw, have any of you set up carspace pages? they are pretty cool. one who is near/dear to one of the diesel forums has posted a stunning/smiling self-photo that made me forget all about vehicles & diesels. :surprise:
Gasoline is seasonally blended for volatility and emissions. Not the case for diesel. Number 2 diesel is number 2 diesel. There is no winter blend for diesel. The fuel is treated with an additive to prevent wax from coming out of solution at cold temperatures. Since ULSD has less lubricity than the previous LSD, I do not think the refiners would cut their diesel fuel with number 1 diesel which has even less lubricity. From the information I am obtaining, additives are being used to reduce the temperature at which wax comes out of solution.
While this is not a passenger vehicle, I still find it very interesting and feel that there are likely huge opportunities to decrease energy usage and emissions in the commercial truck fleet. Nice to see Walmart doing something positive.
OK with B20
The trials were done on three 2007 Arctic Cat ATVs equipped with 700 cc twin-cylinder Lombardini diesel engines. There were no significant differences between B20 and standard No. 2 diesel fuel or No. 1 winter blend diesel fuel for emissions, sound levels or hot-start capability at air temperatures of 95 degrees Fahrenheit.
Also, winter blend gasoline has significantly less energy than summer blend gasoline does. Articles state anywhere from two to eight percent less energy for winter blend gasoline.
The article you get your information from (found it) is from 2004.
http://www.factsonfuel.org/diesel/index.html
Link is here.
So much for that. Ford's vision continues to amaze me.
It's strange they won't even offer it as an option. :confuse:
I can only assume that this “gasoline turbocharged direct injection” engine will require premium gasoline as do most turbo gas engines. So now the continuing cost of operation is going to be higher and I’m probably buying more product than if I were using diesel.
This is the second such comment within the week.
Toyota previously stated that it finds hybrid technology to be more cost effective than diesel although it probably would offer a diesel in the future. I tend to see this as Toyota promoting it's own agenda and that Toyota may not have the volume that others have so it's production costs are somewhat higher.
Ford OTOH is significantly bigger than Toyota in Europe so it's volume is susbstantial but it too doesn't see the cost benefit to selling diesels here at present. GM is bigger yet than Ford is in Europe and I don't hear anything from them except that they have jumped with boh feet first onto the hybrid bandwagon in the US.
So is there more potential profit for an auto maker in going the hybrid route rather than the diesel route? Since these big manufacturers are looking 5-10 years out at a minimum I'd have thought that there would be more by now. Except for Honda, which has trapped itself with it's hybrid technology and VW of course, there is almost no mention of diesel autos for the NA market in the press.
Now trucks and SUV's are different. This makes all the sense in the world if they could all be converted to diesel and FE could be increased from the high teens to the high 20's.
Do the Ford and Toyota comments and the lack of comments from GM mean that they don't find the economies of scale to be sufficient yet to a) import diesel from their European operations; or b) install diesel production facilities here in the US? I don't know.