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i hate pulling this card ... because i don't like when others pull it ... but the diesel vs hybrid discussion was killed. it was killed because it was getting nowhere. there is no point to continuing it here.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
With a full range of clean diesels beginning to arrive at stores and a wider range of hybrids being made available; with pricing being similar; with fuel economy being similar; this will be one of the key decisions of Mr/Mrs American buyer at that time.
Diesel Odyssey or Hybrid Sienna?
Diesel Passat or Hybrid Avalon?
Diesel Yaris or hybrid Honda compact?
read the top of the page.
What is this discussion about? diesels
i would unsubscribe, but I really don't want to miss anyone posting DIESEL news stories.
but ya know what? i'm dropping it. forget i said anything. i'll just learn to scroll faster.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
While I am wondering if this is news, I wholeheartly agree from a practical point of view. Since I have Honda and VW by side, the differences are indeed evident as night and day. However to look at them and whether or not they even matter to a large % of would be buyers is another story.
I'd be happy to discuss them, but the upshot is to be able to look at Honda's cTDI with 250,000 miles. Or a Toyota diesel for that matter.
It's not just me: it's difficult to even FIND a diesel news article which does not talk about hybrids.
I would even dare say hybrid is a marginal concept in search of a host of folks to amortize the investment.
I would also think probably that the articles that you find of interest are the ones that in the same vein speak of hybrids.
However that article you posted about the diesel twin turbo "SUPER CAR" (NON HYBRID) was MOST appropo.
I researched the weights of both and a Toyota Highlander Hybrid 4X2 weighs 4070 lbs (4275 LBS FOR THE 4x4). My Liberty CRD weighs 4306 lbs.
Jeep Liberty 4WD specs This is the gasser version. Is the CRD 400lbs heavier?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Yes it is. There are some differences in the drive train, chassis and of course the engine.
The transmission is lifted from the full size Dodge trucks that come with the Hemi, namely five speed automatic. The four wheel drive system and transfer case is the near top of the line version for Jeeps with V-8 engines. The front springs and driveshafts are stouter than the gasser version. And of course the engine adds most of the weight. It alone weighs 480 plus pounds.
There is also truck engines, which are 122hp for Hilux (before 102hp, probably still sold for HiAce), 166hp for Land Cruiser.
There is also 150hp version of 2.2l engine for Avensis.
Just to set the record straight, Honda is way, way behind Toyota in diesels. They have single diesel of their own in Europe, and they sell 1/10th of what Toyota sells, probably even less. They also dont have any DPNR filters at all, unlike Toyota that has had cleanest diesels for 3 years now.
US journalists claiming that Toyota is trying to pull ahead of Honda, is quite ridicilous.
While I have not been able to verify this personally some of the commentary from European participants paints a different picture from the other side of the pond? Verification anyone?
Another commentary:
Indeed. Even ignoring Hino, Toyota is still ahead of Honda in diesel technology. Toyota partnering with Isuzu has nothing to do with them trying to "catch up" with Honda, as silly journalists are claiming, but it has everything to do with making class leading, next-generation small diesel engines. Hino will focus mainly on larger diesel engines. Toyota with it's Isuzu alliance now, will have access to 800 of their engineers.
The media does not realize this; make no mistake, this is a serious matter for competitors. Toyota and Isuzu are Japan's two best diesel makers. Them partnering together is hypothetically comparable to Toyota and Honda partnering together on 4 cylinder gas engine development. Toyota and Isuzu are going to develop some extremely competitive engines and technologies.
One of the real "BUZZS" is the relatively new (late 1990's to middle 2000 time frames) Honda cTDI from 5/6 years from concept to market diesel engine.
Second is Honda and Toyota (among other Japanese makes) have historically NOT sold well in Europe.
Third if I remember correctly it was YOU that mentioned events and markets in Europe have no application to events and markets here in USA.
Fourth is Honda's PR/marketing annnouncements that the sales goal in Europe was to be fully 33% diesel in the European market.
Fifth is Honda prior to its internal diesel development had been and probably continues to use so called third party vendors for some if not all of its diesels offering. Indeed Toyota's alliance with Izuzu might be to deny the high ground to Honda world wide and ultimately to the USA market, being as how the diesel market has been HUGE and will probably be even BIGGER.
Six, I have said (posted in this or other diesel threads that Toyota has been selling diesels WORLD WIDE for a LONG LONG LONG time.
So if you were to compare and contrast points one and six how could you really claim or believe or come to the conclusion that some say Honda has been in the diesel market longer than Toyota? Or that Toyota is trying to catch up overall? Strawman argument is the upshot!!??
My take is Honda does a very good job in almost all that it undertakes, for not being as BIG a company as Toyota. So while their non internally developed diesel engines did and continues to do the job; I for one applaud their recent concept to market cTDI engine, which rumor has it will hit the USA market in the Honda Accord platform. Indeed the Toyota Landcruiser could do with a total refresh of ITS diesel motor: say like 25-30 mpg V8 twin turbo!!!
Having my eye on the GL320 CDI due in the 50 states this January. I would consider a Land Cruiser diesel or better the LX470 with a diesel. The LX470 being the only vehicle in the current Lexus line up I would consider.
I might be WAY in the LEAD or depending upon; say a world wide and/ or European point of view, really behind the power curve (no pun intended; but will apply it anyway
This might not be popular with the VW fans, but while I have had GREAT experiences with the VW Jetta TDI, there is almost no way I would have got one if it had the 2.0 and 1.8T gasser. Almost all the MAJOR irritants in the VW line has been some sort of engine related snafu.
From another site ( not verified )..
Bosch did join Denso because Volkswagen has buyed license to use the CleanPower (D-CAT) technologie for there vehicles? And that is why Volkswagen will (at last) leaf thear plunjerpump technologie and make a first attemp to make a more advanced and sophisicated () diesel. Those TDI they make today are a lot of fun because they put out a lot of torque at once. Handy when you have a van or truck to carry/pull stuff, but they get a bit annoying when you drive longer with them in a normal passenger car.
My take, diesel's are better (USA) road cars than gassers, unless 0-60 times are an intergral part of ones' long distance driving behavior?? !!
My longest trip in the TDI was 6,500 miles R/T. Refueling was between 500-675 miles per tank (10.5 to 13.5 gals/ 14.5 gal capacity. No way I could have done that refueling regime with the gasser (325-419)
This TDI with 25,000 to 30,000 mile oil change intervals (OCI's) and 100,000 mile timing belt changes will probably be good to go to 800k to 1.1M miles. I'd be tickled pink with 500,000 miles.
With Isuzu already making the Duramax for GM, Toyota's purchase looked a little fishy.
Then there is this today.
Toyuzu diesel hybrid
Now there goes two perfectly good threads..
..."My take is given the diesel options in each and across the segment lines, the markets will take care of themselves. Almost ALL segments would benefit from a diesel/s option: from the American heavier p/u truck diesel market to the smallest economy car."...
Another way to look at it, Toyota (among others) have literally invested BILLIONS in the hybrid technology. So for a 5.9% stake in a diesel oem, it is just another way to make this hybrid (combo) pay. Personally, I would not get the diesel/hybrid: same reason why I bypassed the gasser hybrid, to cite one reason: price/performance ratio.
At the same time, I am guessing the diesel hybrid would follow some of the same Prius' (gasser hybrid) trajectory of starting off and maintaining for a good while, sales at MSRP plus. The Prius folks would embrace the diesel option, for again the diesel gets 37% better mpg. For some Prius (gasser) folks it is almost a driving (obsession) sport to try to get 60-120 mpg. So with a 37% advantage or 82 to 150 mpg, we are off to the races!(like a herd of turtles)!!
More news!!
http://www.herald-mail.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=152203&format=html
John1701a has educated us for years that diesel has no future, surely Toyota would not incorporate a nasty diesel engine in a hybrid powertrain!
We told you so!
Will be REALLY interesting to see if the anti-diesel, hybrid supporting, Toyota worshipers start to flip flop and support diesel.
> surely Toyota would not incorporate a nasty diesel engine in a
> hybrid powertrain!
>
> We told you so!
Doing some searches, you'll find plenty of "non-hybrid" and "engine-only" diesel references from me, contradicting your claim that I'm anti-diesel. In reality, I'm anti-dirty. A search on "SULEV" overwhelmly confirms that.
Digging deeper, you'll also uncover several predictions from me... saying a very small diesel engine as part of a future hybrid system (which relies far more on electricity than a car like Prius does today) would actually be a very good design.
Attempts to discredit as transparent as this don't harm me, but perhaps it does show that smug is certainly a label appropriate for certain diesel supporters.
JOHN
And I know you are not saying the majority of gassers are CLEAN!!?? So we are all "anti dirty"!!! Diesels currently and in the past sold on the market indeed meet emissions law!! Let's put it this way, you would never be mistaken for being an advocate of diesel options for almost all brands and models available.
Of the actual gasser cars on the road, the OVERWHELMING majority of gassers do not, can not and will not meet the sulev standards. Indeed most of the existing population of Prius' do NOT meet the sulev standards. Yet by your "anti diesel stance", it is perfectly fine for those "dirty gassers" to operate? Utterly disengenuous!!
That statement is just plain wrong. Prius achieved the SULEV emission rating way back in 2000 then was stepped up to PZEV in 2004.
Just because you are upset that the automakers don't want to add the hardware needed to make diesel also achieve at least SULEV is no reason to spread false information about Prius.
JOHN
On the contrary, just because YOU will probably not see SULEV for the majority of gassers while wanting diesels to meet sulev while most gassers can't or won't, is no reason to be upset, or as it applies to policy, or unreasonable. So I think you should stop spreading false information, such as you are not anti diesel. etc, etc,
I'm at a loss to understand why small diesel trucks such as the BT-50 are not sold in North America.
Even the 4WD Crew Cab versions routinely obtain 30 mpg on the highway. Compare that to 20 to 21 mpg of the Tacoma, Frontier, and Colorado sized trucks.
F150, Ram 1500 and Silverado 1500 are expected to have diesels as options within the next three years. What about compact or midsize trucks with diesels?
Add them to the list of hatchbacks, small cars, and Crew Cab trucks as vehicles that will not sell in USA.
less dependenace on foreign oil
global warming
higher cost vs lower cost
greater taxation masquerading as "less taxation"
Basically im my case the system is saying it is better to burn 31 mpg in a VW 1.8t turbo gasser than 49 mpg in a TDI. The math indicated 37%
Note Ford has not revised the ancient Ranger here and may actually close that plant while it has already been delivering the new diesel Ranger in Thailand. Hmmmm, Ford is waiting for the next UAW negotiation ( next Fall ) to see if it really closes the plant then it pushes Washington to pass the Free Trade pact with Thailand which will essentially cancel out the 'chicken tax'. But then Toyota and Nissan come in right behind Ford with their world class small diesels.
DaimlerChrysler, VW, Audi Bluetech
The new-generation Bluetec is poised to meet the emissions standards in all 50 U.S. states.
BMW will not join
LK :P
Who was the "you" that response was for?
My references to diesel have been with respect to "engine-only" and "non-hybrid".
JOHN
My reply was for all of the "anti diesel" folks.
Clean efficient diesels are what the world seems to want. In time, I believe that the USA will catch up.
Cheers! LK
Ahh electronics. Now there is a very very valid point. All vehicles gasser, diesel, hybrid are essentially rolling computers or electronic devices. They are getting more and more and more complex electronically if simpler to fix/use. But your point is good in that in 10+ yrs how will all these computers/ECM's/ECU's hold up. This is a huge unknown - for every single new vehicle on the road now.
This is especially true for the ones with heavier usage like SUV's, trucks, etc that might take a physical beating and miles and age. Here's a very vivid picture: Take your laptop or PDA throw it against the wall and then drop it in a bucket of water. Now do this once a day for say 10 years ( 5 yrs? ) ( 2 yrs? ) ( a couple of months ? ).
There is no data to support his claim. Why would the 10-year mark be of any significance anyway? Electronic devices last a heck of a lot longer than that. It's the mechanical, with many moving parts, that are really the trouble. And since hybrids use them less, they should last even longer.
By the way, I also like his use of the "Prius II" label. It was orginally established to undermine, leading people to believe Prius didn't already have 3 years of history before coming to the United States.
In reality, the 10th birthday of Prius is next year. The first owner purchases began in December 1997 in Japan.
JOHN
Toyota Landcruisers that I am acquainted with have gone 14 years and app 250,000 miles, another is at the 16 year market and 198,000 miles. Another is 13 years and 140,000 miles and they all passed their latest required smog only emissions tests. All are WAY below limits and WAY below averages!!
So wake me when folks hear of those 15 (or even 10 years)year old Prius with 250,000 miles and above and NO (buxs) replacement batteries.
I subscribed to www.tdi.com where there are literally many in the 200k range and most all with FULL compression (550 PSI). However again this is another no brainer in that the spec for those engines is 25,000 HOURS. At 45 mph that is 1.125 MILLION miles!!
The real disconnects are the average age of the vehicle fleet (7-8.5 years old) the yearly salvage rate (7% of 235.4 M vehicles) , the yearly USA mileage average 12,000-15,000 miles per year.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117654
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I think my point is selling a used diesel car is easier than selling a used hybrid. In my case, the phone rang off the hook on the 2005 Passat TDI. I sold it to the first caller for $3000 more than I paid new. I have had my 2005 GMC Hybrid listed for 4 weeks and only one call. Not much interest in saving gas with a hybrid PU truck, is my take.