Diesels in the News

ruking1

..."PS No I looked further into the car and it's too small for my family, even in a diesel/hybrid configuration."...

For sure most folks select the vehicle best suited for their needs. Even with this recent "fuel crisis" the smaller car vehicle fleet is still less than 25%

"Waiting to see the 94 MPG Prius in two years. "

Well, if the current Prius is rated at 60/50 and gets 48/45 20% less for 75 mpg?

KCRam

This is NOT a hybrid discussion, and definitely not a hybrid-bashing discussion.

KNOCK IT OFF.

kcram - Pickups Host

larsb

Will the US embrace diesel cars?

ruking1

My guess is yes. The biggest differences are not sound bite able, but once you experience them, they all fall under the category of total no brainer. Of course it will follow the customary and usual process of new car purchasing Indeed I wish all the cars I have now were diesel. I think diesels will experience the growth rate of SUV's, which are at 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet. While it took the better part of 30 years to reach that percentage, I think it will take diesels a far shorter time.

jimlockey

Our corrupt government has committed to ethanol for now. They did this in 1973 and 1974. It didn't work. I guess they need to make a little more money for the past speaker's state.

Also, GM,Toyota and big oil don't want diesel cars in the US. If people bought diesel cars they would keep them longer than the every three years that the auto manufacturers prefer and we all know that diesels get much better mileage so big oil wouldn't like that.

larsb

Regardless of what GM, Toyota, and Big Oil "want":

If the cars are available and are clean and are priced right and get great mileage, then the people will buy them.

We all know ethanol is not the "complete answer" but it is a good way to start weaning ourselves off foreign earl.

ruking1

While I would probably agree with you on all counts (and more probably) at some point, both will probably be confronted with the fact they are losing market share, lost to other oems solely because of the diesel option. USA GM has consistently shown itself over time to not "get it early", but hey it took Toyota at least 15 years to make a "real truck". (Tundra) Again those same corrupting influence peddlers have created the weeds of their own crop sowing. Indeed I know you are fully aware of the fact that GM and Toyota produce diesel products and again have for decades. So in truth it is a USA market segment decision.

Might I also point to synthetic Mobil One, which by definition is "an oil killer"? It is arguably one of the best SYNTHETIC oils on the world market if not the USA and it is made by one of the largest oil companies on the earth. EXXONMOBIL!?

In addition, one of the parent companies whose subsidy is a premier US supplier of diesel filters has called NY state its home office for literally decades.

While I applaud efforts such as Prius, which actually do use less unleaded regular fuel, inherent in that sentence; they still use unleaded fuel. That is a bit like a Hollywood cocaine addict saying he will kick the cocaine habit by.... using a bit less cocaine. Al Gore (saw this on TV, don't shoot the messenger here) has embraced the over the top lifestyle, or the over the top lifestyle folks have embraced him! You know the guy has be be ghetto slumming to pare down to only 4 ea 15,000 sq ft houses??!! I guess you have to live the life styles of the rich and famous to have a "carbon neutral" lifestyle. And now you know what the seeds might have looked like for the French revolution.

So by the numbers, inherent in the 12% SWAG of diesel passenger vehicle population will be 12% of mixed vehicle segments OFF unleaded regular use. Just this use "on the other part of the barrel" so to speak will STRUCTURALLY result in less barrels of oil produced (see the ratio of diesel fuel/unleaded regular in a barrel of oil EIA.GOV statistics).

gagrice

Not all diesel vehicles are more expensive than their siblings. The MB GL320 CDI is $2500 less than the gas version of the GL. It is my current pick for vehicle I would like to own. It was also picked by the editors of Edmund's as one of the most wanted vehicles of 2007. With 34 owners giving it a 9.4 rating I would say the GL320 CDI will be the luxury SUV to beat this year. I have not sat in anything I like as well.

repoman1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/06/AR2007030601807_- 2.html

Read this and you can see why GM is going bankrupt. According to Robert Lutz, GM's vice chairman for global product development. GM needs to fire every one of its executives who believes in this convoluted logic.

"But the mix of smaller, more fuel-efficient models is bigger in Europe than it is in the United States. We need gasoline of 6 bucks a gallon to change that equation in America. If America really wants more fuel-efficient cars, which will mean more smaller models, it's up to the government to establish parameters in which that market will work," Lutz said.

The article is right on target when it states:
"There isn't as much fuss here as there is in the United States over gasoline-electric hybrids, though there are a number of hybrid samples available for viewing. The problem is price. Gas-electric hybrids often cost substantially more than their traditional gasoline-powered rivals. And many European consumers, who already get high mileage from diesel-powered and smaller gasoline models, don't see an advantage in paying more for a technology that does not deliver a dramatic increase in fuel efficiency."

gagrice

Just reading my Mar/April issue of Audubon Magazine. They say if you have a good source of biodiesel in your area and need a new car your first choice for the environment should be a diesel car. Without a good source of biodiesel a hybrid would be the second choice. They also say that recycled cooking oil is first choice and biodiesel from soy though good, is not quite as eco friendly. The bird folks have endorsed diesel. That is a good thing.

ruking1

6.00-7.00 per GAL!!!????? in Euro. Think you got problems ? There will be unleaded fuel rationing in IRAN !!!!! Seems people are LIVID, especially when the price is .08 cents per liter or app .30 cents a gal at the PUMP !!

..."Under parliament's decision, which still has to be approved by the hardline vetting body the Guardians Council, the price of ordinary petrol will rise from its current level of 800 rials a litre to 1,000 rials (10 cents)."...

3.785 liters is in a gal x.10=

.38 cents per gal !!!!

How rude!

A 21% rise in fuel prices !!!!!!!!

Seems like the Jihadist supporting nations and incidently an oil producing nation (for those that have been out of earths orbit) haven't gotten the word.

..."The rampant demand encouraged by the such prices has meant OPEC's number two producer has ironically been spending billions of dollars annually to import petrol from abroad."...

Perhaps we should export a few of our environmentalists and their logistical support systems to help them with their problems.

Iran's motorists face petrol rationing by Stuart Williams

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070307/wl_mideast_afp/iraneconomyoilenergy_0703071- - - - - - - - 51839

larsb

Well, if that is true, one of two things happened:

1. MB left out some options on the CDI version to make it cheaper, or
2. They are taking a loss in pushing the vehicles.

It's that simple. Dieselizing a car costs extra money and historically always has, just as hybridizing a car will add costs. If they managed to trim $2500 off the CDI model, they are either taking it in the shorts or have left off features.

PS This Edmunds first drive says the diesel version is about $1000 more than the gas version:

First Drive: 2007 Mercedes-Benz GL320 CDI 4MATIC

ruking1

I really do not see what is the big deal here, from the consumers point of view. GM/Ford/DCB have been selling cars in the American market for a long time at HUGE yearly losses!!?? Stock markets consider some of the losses unsustainable. Indeed while hard to see from the same consumers point of view, relatively you are getting a GREAT DEAL on an American car!!???

gagrice

I took the pricing from Edmund's this morning. The difference is the GL450 gas version is a V8. The diesel is a V6. The diesel engine has more torque. though I imagine the gasser is quicker to 60 MPH, with the higher HP. I found nothing standard on the V8 that was not standard on the diesel. The base price is $52,400 exactly $2500 less than the GL450. A bargain in my book.
PS
I will have to buy mine out of state or wait for a used one with 7500 miles to show up here. Not likely that anyone would want to give such a vehicle up after owning it for 7500 miles.

bristol2

Diesel engines have fewer components than gasoline. They are more expensive only because of scale of production.

qbrozen

PS This Edmunds first drive says the diesel version is about $1000 more than the gas version:

First Drive: 2007 Mercedes-Benz GL320 CDI 4MATIC

I haven't done the actual pricing, but you are misquoting. The article points out pricing hasn't been announced and there is a $1k price difference in the E-Class.

As gagrice points out, the GL450 is a V8, so that might be the difference. (i wonder if the $2500 extra includes some sort of gas guzzler tax? is that possible?)

larsb

gary says, "Not likely that anyone would want to give such a vehicle up after owning it for 7500 miles."

Actually, it's not too hard to find low-mileage high-end used MB diesels here in Phoenix. I located 5 certified 2005 and 2006 E320 CDIs in Phoenix this morning all with less than 15K miles on them.

So there are people who ditch expensive cars after less than 15K miles.

larsb

I did not misquote anything. The article says, "Robert Moran, Mercedes' manager of product and technology public relations, points out that the diesel option in the E-Class (E320 CDI) adds a $1,000 premium over the E350 and that the difference should be about the same in the GL."

ruking1

You know given the information, I think we are really splitting hairs here! I think Bristol highlighted the major reason for the so called higher price of the diesel option: scale of production. We can probably take the European cue when the diesel passenger vehicle fleet is 50% and growing: Honda diesel premium over gasser is app 500 dollars.

As a look back comparison the premium of TDI vs 1.8T was app 246 dollars.

There are of course anomolies. They will affect a host of variables ultimately determining how much something ultimately costs. OEM's go to almost extraordinary lengths to try and keep folks as confused as possible. They really want folks to make apples to oranges comparisons. Of course you would never think they are slanted toward HIGHER than lower now would you?

ruking1

Honda's i-cTDI

http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2003-4030226_1a/

The fuel mileage is rated at 5.4L/100 km, US gal 43.555, imp gal 52.311, 18.5185 km/liter.

elias

a pal of mine in MA just bought a used 2006 jeep liberty CRD and the dealer got it registered even though it only has 6500 miles. this was not supposed to be possible, supposedly 7500 miles is the lower bound! the guy told me that the dealer "knew someone". who knows, maybe the title wrongly lists the vehicle as a gasser. once when i got NH title for one of my diesels it was wrongly listed as a gasser, so i went back and got new/correct title.

qbrozen

HUGE difference between "should be" and "is."

gagrice

I think in CA it is generally considered to be used at 7500 miles. However I believe the literal translation is used. So if it is more than a year old I believe it would be allowed with less than 7500 miles. The other possibility is to replace a vehicle that was not worth fixing while out of state. I do not know anyone that has used that loophole.

tifighter

Subaru shows its first turbodiesel in Geneva

Subaru Boxer Turbo Diesel

Still not confirmed for the US yet

winter2

I bought the Washington Post yesterday to read this article and it was right on the mark.

If GM goes [non-permissible content removed] up, it will do so by it's own hand. Why do we need to wait for $6.00 per gallon fuel? Why not get ahead of the curve? There are plenty of clean diesels available already and for only a few dollars more than their spark ignition counterparts. Plus biodiesel is less energy intensive to make than ethanol and the FE hit is almost nil.

Read another article this morning stating that the Prius was really no greener environmentally than a non-hybrid counterpart. Toyota would like us to think that it is but it is not.

winter2

Nice article.

winter2

Ethanol is a near waste of time. Unless an engine is properly designed to take advantage of the octane ethanol has, it is a waste. E85 powered vehicles take a 20+% hit on FE and the GHG emissions are not all that much better than on straight gasoline.

winter2

Saw a ML 320 CDI about one week ago. Very quiet and you could not tell it was a diesel except by the "CDI" logo on the back. Was pretty quick off the line and no smoke or smell.

larsb

winter2 says, "...the Prius was really no greener environmentally than a non-hybrid counterpart. Toyota would like us to think that it is but it is not."

Not the forum for this here, but if you believe that to be true, that is due to lack of education on your part...:)

winter2

I do not think MB left anything out. $1000 for the engine is about right. The diesel in my 2005 Liberty cost $846. In the 2005 VW Passat, it was $275. All the features were the same, no reduction in amenities.

winter2

Your response proves we are both idiots!

larsb

Why are we idiots, exactly, Again?

(being an idiot, I need things spelled out.)

ruking1

Why are we idiots, exactly, Again?

(being an idiot, I need things spelled out.)


This has to be one of your funnier posts!

winter2

Makes two of us.

And now for an interesting follow-up to the article I mentioned.

Do you know of any other source that gasoline can be made from besides oil, natural gas, or coal?

larsb

If that's your version of a Pop Quiz, then I score 100 :shades:

Gas from Cattle Poop

gagrice

The Beef Council will love it.

"Eat More Beef & stick it to OPEC"

or
"Got Milk, Got Gas"

ruking1

Yes and the Prius crowd will love the PROVIMI VEAL version CALF methane and the other end product. Is this udderly R--- or what?

KCRam

kcram - Pickups Host

ruking1

Right, this really gets back how to better utilize varies existing processes. But I hear you, we are dung with this, crappy subject anyway.

But still, finding diesel is far more productive. For as much potential as algae cultivating has(among too many other processes too numerous to mention in parenthesis) (10,000 gals of #2 diesel per acre), little to nothing is know by the general public. This is interesting in light of the fact the USA is rung by oceans to the western, south, and east. When you factor in Alaska and Hawaii, the potential is being seriously ignored.Concept is very simple. Where ever there is an ocean in effect it is a potential (growth/cultivation of algae) oil field. Sort of like that old advertising joke: GO to the FREEZER, get the BOX. I'm HELPING !!!

gagrice

I think the Salton Sea in the California desert would be an ideal place to harvest algae for making biodiesel. It is practically a dead sewer in the desert. Maybe harvesting the algae would bring back some of the life to it.

ruking1

PERFECTO !!!

It isn't like you are looking for oil in the middle of nowhere like looking for a needle in the literal and proverbial haystack !!!!

Your (example) is absolutely HUGE!!! It is almost mind numbing how nobody sees the potential in biodiesel. Or enough to generate the necessary and needed R & D and subsequent investments.

All the losses due to oil exploration costs literally go away. Or it is simply not applicable. They do not have to charge for this!? It becomes a feasibility and in effect environmental rehabilitation study!!! The cost savings are HUGE. As one small consequence, the loss costs due to exploration do not have to be amortized over each barrel of oil or however the usual and customary way of doing this is. I should ask my neighbor, she was a fi analyst for a HUGE oil company (now retired). And the environment does get "fixed."

bhw77

Will never happened.
Diesel usage would bring biodiesel production and this is the HUGE threat to the Big Oil.
Will never happened...

ruking1

I would take it you are of the strong opinion all of this/these so called CRISIS/'s and so called consequences is/are really contrived?

Of course it becomes a sort of self fulfilling prophesy if indeed the passenger vehicle fleet remains at less than 3% diesel!?

larsb

Many oil-based biodiesel fuels start to gel around 40 degrees Farenheit.

Can it be a good long-term solution for cold weather areas?

kyfdx

With global warming, that won't be a problem..

ruking1

This is an interesting question. Might I call your attention to the fact, home heating oil customers are in the north and north east sections of the country, that is spelled COLD!?. They also do not stop the operation of diesel trucks during the winter? Funny how global warming is making those sections of the country the COLDEST on record.

bhw77

Same happens with regular diesel fuel and there some solutions to this.
Also biodiesel could be used in warmer states and as a heating fuel. (no gelling problem there). All this could take pressure off the oil market.
There are are many available technologies to produce biodiesel from algae now, some are fantastic some are working on the top of MIT building.
I am very pessimistic with the future of biodiesel - this is the REAL threat to the Big Oil - unlike ethanol...

ruking1

Well the bigger threat to bigger oil might be folks like Hugo Chavez, President of Venuezula! He just recently nationalized the oil industry, in effect stealing the BILLIONS of dollars invested by some of the LARGEST oil companies on the planet!! Funny we didnt even hear a yawn from big oil. No mobilization of the troops to attack Venuezula. Almost nada nothing zilch. Very un "marfia" like?

We didn't even arrest him when he spoke at the UN in NYC for being an international thief? He just rapped on at the podium.

bhw77

Why bother? if you can just increase gasoline price?
We are going to to pay for it any way....

ruking1

Well I would elect folks of that irk to pay 6 dollars, while folks like me would want to pay less than .30 cents?

As you say, we pay for it anyway!?