I have no doubt you are right. When diesel was higher than regular the market for VW TDIs went down. As soon as diesel was lower priced up popped the buyers looking for diesels. I sat on my Mercedes Sprinter Conversion Van for 8 months waiting for a buyer. As soon as gas hit 3 bucks and diesel was under 3 dollars, I started getting calls. Less than a week and I had my cash in hand. I would like to buy a GL320 CDI. I am not going to pay anywhere near what these dealers want. Someone will get in over there head and I will have the vehicle I want at a price that is not out of line. Then if I don't like it and decide to sell I will not lose money. I lost money on cars when I was young and foolish. Not anymore. Buy right and buy cash. Now if I could just get rid of this Hybrid PU truck.
It is amazing how much some people will pay to save, isn't it? Maybe you could repeat your VW profit if you bought the diesel now and sold when gas goes to $3 + a gallon.
Gas is over 3 bucks a gallon in So. California. San Diego average $3.16 for regular. Diesel is $2.97. I just sold the cheapest vehicle I had to drive. My MB Cruiser got consistent 22 MPG on diesel. Just a bit big to take to the store. It is proof that diesel is the far superior fuel for any vehicle. When you can drive an 8,000 lb vehicle around and never get less than 22 MPG, usually closer to 25 MPG. What would you get with that 5 cylinder diesel in a 5,000 lb PU truck? At least 30-35 MPG. No wonder UPS and FedEx is buying them by the thousands.
PS I have tried buying another VW TDI. Too expensive. I hit perfect with mine when I bought in March of 2005. Diesel was more expensive than premium. I got a deal from a Portland VW dealer. He had a good supply of Passat Wagon TDIs. Going through the Internet sales dept. I paid way under invoice. Just a few months prior the same vehicles were bringing $1000 over MSRP. In fact the dealer in Vancouver WA across the river still wanted a big premium on the TDIs. My dealer wanted to move cars. It was a fun car to drive. I would buy another 2005. I am not fond of the new ones.
That is true here in the NorCA also, 3.04 ULR, diesel 2.99. We have refineries up the road (55 miles?). (Chevron among others, Martinez, CA) I fuel at a station where literally down the street, all the gas trucks are loaded that deliver this area.
Thanks Gagrice. Finally read the article a few moments ago. Cranky connection or browser was the problem earlier on.
Very promising but if VW does not get quality issues under control and their dealers whipped into shape, then this will be all for naught. Oldsmobile Diesel all over again. I met a doctor who owns a Toureg diesel. One of the injection pumps failed (leaking). Took four weeks to get it fixed properly. He has had one or two other small problems but his biggest headache has been trying to find a good, reliable dealership with a good service department.
Three things came to mind reading your post. I say this having to use 4 dealerships; Chevrolet, Toyota, Honda and VW, all local.
1. VW needs to get more reliable with the high quality it already puts into its cars. Honda does reliability excellently with medium (to low) quality. When I compare the quality of Jetta vs Civic side by side, there is almost literally no comparison. However for a host of reasons, I am satisfied with both. While both my Jetta and Honda have BOTH been very reliable, VW seems to have a lot more issues, if some of the Edmunds.com and other web sites are any gauge.
2. My local VW dealership's physical plant is wonderful, but I surely do not get the warm fuzzies when I deal with them.
3. The service department, like wise
My unrelated questions would be how durable would the Honda with the cTDI be? For example, oem consumable items on the Honda Civic wear about 2x faster than on the VW Jetta. This is a HUGE plus for oem VW parts, especially in light of the fact the parts' prices between VW and Honda are close.
Specifically, the parts and service; Civic@ 41,500 miles: tires and alignment. Jetta, tires (just rotated and inspected at 90,000 miles) are good to go easily another 20,000 K. I have not had an alignment since the new car warranty period.
In the area I live in, ULR is running in the mid to upper 2.50's while ULSD is running in the mid to upper 2.60's.
Starting to see more Chevron stations switch over to ULSD. Almost all that I frequented carried LSD until recently. Texaco, a Chevron partner has carried ULSD for sometime. Exxon also carries ULSD locally, but they tend to run ten to twelve cents more per gallon.
I am glad you made the distinction. The LSD/ULSD distinction slipped right by me. CA mandated ULSD since, I believe Oct 6,2006? Even though the original date was July 6,2006? Which was slipped from ? (I forgot)
In 2005 when I was shopping for a new car I wanted a diesel. VW was on top of the list initially. Things in VW's favor were availability of parts and a large dealership network. Also, the engine was an inexpensive option that went very far on very little fuel. I was looking at a Passat TDI Wagon. What killed the VW follows.
1. I wanted to speak with the diesel tech at the dealers to really learn about the engine and see what if any weaknesses it had. I was not allowed to do that at the two dealers I visited. Strike One!
2. VW kept changing the specs for the engine oil and the dealers I visited made it clear that VW required me to use their oil or else the warranty would be void. Strike Two!
3. Spoke to several independent garages that serviced VW almost exclusively. Front brakes were a problem (poor long term durability and expensive to fix). Maintenance was expensive and for me to do an oil change required a rack or ramps. Access to filters (oil, fuel) was a pain at best. Strike Three!
I would have like the MB E320 CDI but I did not have $51K to throw at it.
I settled on my third choice and am happy I did, the Jeep Liberty CRD. Does not get the greatest FE but 30 MPG on the road is okay by me. After nearly two years of ownership, it has proven to be quite reliable and easy to maintain. Oil change takes me twenty minutes. Had to buy one tool to remove the drain plug from the oil pan. That set me back $3.95. Everything is easy to access, I do not have the maddening limitations with the engine oil. The dealership is fabulous and the few times I have had the CRD back there for service, it was fixed correctly the first time. I can even talk to the diesel tech and ask questions. Fit and finish are at the Toyota level. No paint defects, ripples in the sheet metal, all gaps are within 0.5mm or less of each other. Everything is straight, no squeaks, rattles, nothing. It may not be as sophisticated as a VW but it works for me. The engine is fabulous with nearly 300 lb-feet of torque (2.8L four banger.
"Then if I don't like it and decide to sell I will not lose money. I lost money on cars when I was young and foolish. Not anymore." ==========================================================
This implies that there are cars that do not lose money and are essentially investments. All cars are a losing proposition from day one and before and are a marvelous testament to the American marketing genius. They cost money to buy that you will never recover, money to operate, insure, repair , service and dispose of; not to mention the huge indirect costs of its effects on the environment that the rest of us, including our children, have to pay for.
Additionally, paying cash is not the best way to use your money. You can make more on that money investing it than you will save in interest payments; additionally, a record of car payments increases your FICO score and lowers the available interest rate to you for anything else you may want to purchase, like a house.
I think we would probably agree with you. The issues are really: which vehicles depreciate the least (lose the LEAST), cost the least: per mile driven. So essentially I have zeroed or fully depreciated the TDI at 500,000 miles and I will be tickled pink if it makes it to 1,000,000 miles. It would be just icing on the cake to actually get some sort of residual value. At that time I will be able to state what a willing buyer would have paid. So at 500k the cost is .036 depreciation per mile driven. At 1,000,000 miles it would be .018 cents per mile driven. (both of course would be recalculated based on the future sales price.
I got 028 cents (per mile driven, depreciation) on a 1987 TLC, when it was sold for 9,000 dollars. So over 14 years and 250,000 miles the cost per year was 500 per year or 41.67 per mo. So since I haven't sold the Jetta TDI yet that piece of data/information remains unknown.
Additionally, paying cash is not the best way to use your money. You can make more on that money investing it than you will save in interest payments
Show me an investment that guarantees the same return rate as you are paying on your car + tax you would pay on the investment gains. Go ahead.
a record of car payments increases your FICO score and lowers the available interest rate to you for anything else you may want to purchase, like a house
Having worked in mortgages in the past, let me assure you that other factors than having had a car loan are far more important. It is an expensive way to build up your creditworthiness. Also, please do not believe that your interest rate is somehow proportionately tied to your FICO score. That score only helps (with many other factors) to place you in a category - A, B, C. Within each category everyone will get the same interest rate from the same lending institution. So, as long you are a prime borrower, you have a shot at exactly the same interest rate as any other prime borrower. Other factors, like debt ratios, will be more important in determining a particular loan eligibility, and here having an active car loan may hurt you more than help.
Thank you for setting the record straight. I think some people would borrow money against their home equity to play the stock market or buy lottery tickets. Not smart money. Even leasing for your business is marginal in reality. It comes out of the net profit somewhere.
I would also point out to our doubter that this country is full of used car dealers that make money on nearly every car they buy. Every one that trades in a fairly new car is giving the dealer a nice bonus. Buy a vehicle right and you can make money. Rarely on a new car. Though it has been done. There is a dealer in Orange county that specializes in low mileage VW TDIs. He sells them as fast as he gets them for more than they sold for new.
PS I have 30 years of paying my debts each month. That was until they did away the interest deduction. I wised up and pay off all debt each month. I can borrow way more than I could possibly want or need. Let some one else make BofA & Citibank rich.
I know that this is more of a dream than anything but i would absolutely love one of these in the states. New Ranger This would be the absolute perfect vehicle for me and I'm sure that they would sell like hotcakes. Though it really doesn't matter until they can pass the emissions.
1) "Show me an investment that guarantees the same return rate as you are paying on your car + tax you would pay on the investment gains. Go ahead."
If you have some degree of understanding about investing you will do better over time just buying the indexes. If you want to do better than the indexes you can spend more time on studying investments, but most are not wired for this, which is fine. Avoiding risk is the most certain way to go broke - paying cash is a quick and certain way to never do better than less than average. The entire American story is one of risk and reward - avoiding it is like avoiding apple pie:) All we are ever guaranteed of is that in the end we are all dead.
2) " ... having an active car loan may hurt you more than help."
Fair Issacs states that having a record of making car payments is second only to making home payments in determining credit worthiness. It is part of a "profile", rational or not, that determines one's credit worthiness, or FICO rating. FICO ratings place you in categories A,B,C, etc., and as you stated determine your loan rates.
However, the post was originally to restate the obvious: cars are a black hole for money; they do not appreciate; they are not an asset in any investment sense; doing without one is the greatest savings; those who do without one subsidize those who have them. This is of course completely contrary to the remarkable sales job that advertising has done on Americans.
Although not a site for financial discussions, the Diesel rationalization efforts frequently digress into how little money can I sink into a black hole. It is a discussion that seems to be along the lines of "is it better to have a sharp stick in one eye or the other".
I keep hearing about this "country full of used car dealers selling diesels for more than they sold for new", yet every search I do fails to sustain this fantasy in even the most modest of ways. It is not unlike the fabulously entertaining posts on other sites where I soon expect to see a claim for diesel being a cure for cancer and that the government is secretly preventing it from coming to market to keep the medical profession afloat.
As for home equity and investments; there is an economic axiom that states that money not being used is money wasted. Businesses rarely ever tie up capital in property because the return is better in other places.
Not understanding this may be part of the misplaced messianism of the diesel promotion now actively under way by yet another wave of advertising and public relations campaigns.
Diesel is just another massive waste of resources that would be better used building mass transit systems that would have long ago eliminated this discussion board - but then where would we go for fun as we march toward oblivion watching our children die?
If you have some degree of understanding about investing you will do better over time just buying the indexes
First, comparing guaranteed and speculative returns does not make sense. In addition, you are just plain wrong. Let me prove it - how much has the premier index S&P500 made over the last 7 years? Answer: NOTHING. If that in your opinion beats a guaranteed rate of whatever the car loans are at now, I shall beg to differ with you on that. I won't bother disputing the rest of your post because your basic premise was flawed, which I have proven.
Paying the interest just to impress a banker that you can? No, thanks.
..."Diesel is just another massive waste of resources that would be better used building mass transit systems that would have long ago eliminated this discussion board - but then where would we go for fun as we march toward oblivion watching our children die?"...
In stark contrast, the reality: diesel is the back bone of the USA economy. You want to watch a town die? Totally ban all ICE's from entering cities: say NYC. While you are at it, ground all the planes that use jet fuel (chemically close to diesel)that service the greater NYC area. Just one week of no garbage pick up (by diesel garbage trucks, I might observe) might convince you that your dreams (of your new reality) might... stink. On the other hand, society has voted that 42,000 or so vehicle deaths per year is an ok price to pay for the transportation portion of society.
1) "First, comparing guaranteed and speculative returns does not make sense. In addition, you are just plain wrong. Let me prove it - how much has the premier index S&P500 made over the last 7 years? Answer: NOTHING." =========================================================== Not quite an honest post is it? Who in their right mind invests for only 7 years? And why not pick for your illustration seven years when the increases were 20% and more year over year? That would be just as dishonest. Investors make money - disenvestors do not. If one is happy with that circumstance - then fine - it proves only that you like that state and not that investing does not work.
2) "Paying the interest just to impress a banker that you can? No, thanks." ==========================================================
If you read my post you will see that investment opportunities (opportunity costs), financial liquidity and credit worthiness were the objectives - bankers don't know, or care, who you are.
3) And again; cars being black holes for money by any computation, and not assets in any of their forms was the discussion in the post - imaginary used diesels at over retail new notwithstanding. None of this did you counter in your posts.
Not quite an honest post is it? Who in their right mind invests for only 7 years? And why not pick for your illustration seven years when the increases were 20% and more year over year?
We were talking about a car loan. Do you get car loans for 30 years? And since you talked about smart investing, it is clear that paying cash for a car would have been smarter than putting the same money in S&P500 while paying interest on the loan. That was all I needed to prove.
cars being black holes for money by any computation, and not assets in any of their form
Here we fully agree (and I never disputed it). Let's just leave it at that before the good Host unleashes his wrath on our heads.
You might try Craigslist for Orange County and see how many VW TDIs are offered over the Blue Book Price. The Auto Trader has a couple 2005 Passat Wagon TDIs with an asking price over $30k. Way over the MSRP on that vehicle.
You are right, about bankers not caring who you are. If you have money they are more than willing to loan you more. If you don't you are on an uphill battle.
You go ahead and keep playing the stock market and paying the broker & banker. I will just horde mine. I worked too hard for my money and land to hand it over to some suit.
My land investments have far far out performed my stock investments over the last 35 years.
Yes I think the real world advantages for passenger diesels are tools in the quiver for so called "private" motor car transportation consumers. I think it bears mentioning that even in Europe, where we see the highest percentage of the passenger fleet, diesel at 50% and growing, still has fully 50% gassers (and decreasing).
Another modest proposal. Don't like diesel? Pretty easy to change the 3 % percentage of diesel in US and the 50% and growing in Europe: make unleaded regular ridiculously cheaper than it is now. If Europe is any example, we can see what happens when we make gasoline ridiculously more expensive. 6/7 dollars per gal in UK/Germany .30 cents in Iran. We get 50% passenger vehicle fleet populations and growing.
Want a magic wand proposal? Discover a way to make 100% of the yield of a barrel of oil: unleaded regular.
Till then, there are a host of advantages to diesel. But I think the seeds of change are more in diesel than unleaded regular gasoline. If you can run diesel, you know quite well there are multiple sources for alternative diesel fuel, i.e., bio diesel.
And I would agree! The other is there are many other ways and paths to a myraid of success stories.
We need to get over the monolithic concept that the imported "oil" crisis will be solve if we chose between unleaded regular and diesel. The other thing that needs to be said is Europe imports fully 85% of its oil. So truly the theory that higher mpg vehicles will stop the importatation of foreign oil is/has been PATENTLY FALSE/untrue. Indeed Europe imports most of its imported oil from the countries in the middle east that wishes to destroy America. At max, I have read, our "foreign oil " importation from the middle east region is 12 percent of the PORTION that is imported. So why we continue to "protect" Europe when they themselves will not send the necessary troops should have its days of reckoning: the sooner the better. One sign: Let's get OUR troops out of Europe!
It is good there is finally some recognition or coming around to what folks like Gagrice and I have been saying pretty much all along. A HUGE mistake not to have started the regulation of these types of vehicles among many others a generation to 2 generations ago.
A move toward greater percentage and volume passenger diesel fleet. Diesels are at less than 3% of the passenger vehicle fleet. Let's aggressively go toward as a minimum to the percentages of a barrel of oil: diesel vs gasoline or specifically 25% of the vehicle fleet.
We have the advantage over Europe in that the majority of the imported oil does not come from the middle east. Why should we protect the Europeans' oil supply and sources,when they will not even do it themselves when we are and have literally BEGGED them to help? We are still doing the "heavy lifting so to speak". I have nothing against the Europeans paying 9/10 dollars per gal or higher?!!
We start building and buying clean diesel vehicles. They are already available the world over. Just bring em on over here. No R&D required. For every gas vehicle we replace we cut oil consumption by about a 1/3rd. Make the clean diesel truck engine mandate nationwide not just CA. With the current laws we have truckers coming via AZ & NV burning higher sulfur cheap diesel. The regulations by CARB have bankrupted several carriers in this state. Yet it has not stopped the flow of dirty diesel trucks, from our state borders and the Mexican border. Those changes would be welcome, if we are serious about cleaning the air, cutting GHG and using less fossil fuel.
I would agree. I also do not know how I would react to this in reality, but conceptually, a modular EV option with say a 300 mile range where you could install or remove the option. So if you want more miles per gal per trip, here is a modest example. On a 500 mile trip, charge the EV and run it out app 300 miles, then switch over to diesel/50 mpg gasser 38 miles per gal for the rest of the trip, 200 miles. Since you will only go 200 miles the TRIP mpg would be now be 125 mpg diesel and 95 mpg gasser.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I ran across this in a Forbes article:
..."The biggest cost of car ownership isn't gas, repairs or even adding that amazing sound system. Nope, it's depreciation, or the car's decrease in value over time.
The autos that depreciate most are frequently high-volume, older vehicles. The winners? Those that are well-designed, well-engineered and are usually in limited supply and high demand, according to Kelley Blue Book, an authority on residual value."...
In car buying, one of my priority considerations has been the lowest real and projected depreciation.
As a nexus, diesel models have a VERY long way to go before it meets the above (first paragraph) real world definitions and examples. On a macro level, the diesel passenger vehicle fleet is less than 3 percent.
Of course, if any oem pulls another (in decades past) "GM like diesel fiasco" this would not be a good thing.
Truly at this point, almost any passenger vehicle fleet diesel meets the second paragraph's definition.
As another example, a VW Jetta TDI is in the subset; small car, which is 25% of the vehicle population. By definition, is a minority position. By virtue of the unleaded regular prices this is seen as a plus, better fuel mileage is seen as a plus. Being as how it doesn't use unleaded gas but diesel and diesel gets better fuel mileage than unleaded regular and now CHEAPER: an even bigger plus. The chance to either situationally or permanently use alternative fuels......!! In the VW gasser line, depending on the year, again it is a minority within THAT minority, which in the case of VW is a VERY good thing.
Yes! I really do not want to give folks the feeling I am vilifying VW. I am not at all!! However if another VW owner is experiencing the lack of reliability, (among other things) I could definitely understand their vilification. It is really a cautionary call and reaction to the (seems to be) less than reliable issues as documented on Edmunds.com and many other web sites, etc, etc.
I personally have been having (extremely good luck,if the information is correct) very good results with the 2003 VW Jetta TDI.
"With 34 owners giving it a 9.4 rating I would say the GL320 CDI will be the luxury SUV to beat this year. "
We have had one for two weeks. We bought it because of the combination of utility and fuel economy. Needed (wanted is probably a better word) something bigger than a Highlander Hybrid but still wanted to feel remotely green. We have been getting 22mpg around town and 26mpg on the freeway. This is not instant read MPG. The MB trip/fuel gauge logs for the day. Days that my wife keeps the car and schleps kids and runs errands end up at 21-22. When I drive 75% freeway to work, we get 25-26. Straight freeway at 60mph is 26-27.
Great car. A lot of technology, but ez to use. Get the iPod adaptor and the bluetooth phone acc. Really cool features. The car is very quick to about 40, then the acceleration is more sedate. Fun and easy to drive... lots of room. As big as a Yukon and it gets mid 20s overall; pretty dang good. We averaged 18mpg in our smaller Pilot, so we are getting 35% better mileage in a noticeably bigger supremely comfortable truck.
I did not misquote anything. The article says, "Robert Moran, Mercedes' manager of product and technology public relations, points out that the diesel option in the E-Class The article says, "Robert Moran, Mercedes' manager of product and technology public relations, points out that the diesel option in the E-Class (E320 CDI) adds a $1,000 premium over the E350 and that the difference should be about the same in the GL." ===============================
There are things that are worth discussing and things worth looking up. The GL320 is $2500 less than the GL450. The obvious reason is that in the E series you are comparing a 6 cylinder engine to a 6 cylinder engine of equivalent displacement. In the GL the diesel is two cylinders and 130cc smaller.
I like the diesel better regardless of price. The characteristics of a diesel are well matched to a truck.
Thanks for the update. The GL320 CDI is at the top of my list right now. I just have to work around the CARB ignorance. I may buy a used one with 7500 miles to get around the ruling. All it is doing is making the price of used diesel cars in CA higher than the rest of the USA. What's new?
Have you had it in deep snow yet? If so, what was your impression?
Some folks here think because the hybrids are way more expensive than the ICE only counterpart that it should be the same for the diesel option. My Passat TDI had a $200 MSRP premium. As you have pointed out the diesel version of the GL is a quite a bit less than the gas version. The writer obviously made a poor assumption and some people bought into it. As close as I can tell the GL450 and the GL320 CDI are comparably equipped in the base form. The options cost the same for both vehicles. The bottom line is you get a GL320 CDI with more torque equally equipped to the GL450 for $2500 less. Here in San Diego they are not dealing on the GL450 as they are selling very well. So I imagine where available the diesel version sells even better. It is good to hear you are liking yours. Makes me more sure of my research.
Read another article this morning stating that the Prius was really no greener environmentally than a non-hybrid counterpart. Toyota would like us to think that it is but it is not. =========================
Do not believe everything you read. Hybrids work. They turn the energy in the momentum of 1000s of vehicle pounds into energy stored in a battery instead of into heat produced by a brake pad. How can you not accept this? What are you reading?
Do they save enough gas to pay for the extra complexity over 4 years? Not always. But the cost difference is not dissimilar to buying the bigger engine in a given car and usually produces an equivalent power increase. Plus you do save gas $$$ and the planet at the same time. Also residual values tend to be higher on hybrids.
Is ULSD readily available in your part of the country? Some states seem to be dragging their feet on this mandate. My understanding is the GL320 CDI must have the Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel to function properly. My off road use would be in the desert. Sandy washes and back trails. No big rocks or sand dunes. That air suspension sounds good.
Did you consider the BMW X5 when you bought your GL?
..."Days that my wife keeps the car and schleps kids and runs errands end up at 21-22. When I drive 75% freeway to work, we get 25-26. Straight freeway at 60mph is 26-27.
Great car. A lot of technology, but ez to use. Get the iPod adaptor and the bluetooth phone acc. Really cool features. The car is very quick to about 40, then the acceleration is more sedate. Fun and easy to drive... lots of room. As big as a Yukon and it gets mid 20s overall; pretty dang good. We averaged 18mpg in our smaller Pilot, so we are getting 35% better mileage in a noticeably bigger supremely comfortable truck. "...
I read your post, (above quote, a primer) and noted again that diesels get better mpg than gassers. I actually would consider a Pilot, but in truth your 18 mpg (gasser) is not much better than my Toyota Landcruiser. In addition your 20 some odd mpg (21-27)diesel is on par and sometimes better than the mpg some COMPACT Honda Civic (gasser), owners get, if some threads like Edmunds.com (Honda Civic The Real World Mpg) are any indication. When you factor in the so called "new and improved" EPA ratings, it makes the diesel option all the more advantageous.
Ford may as well call it quits. They just seem to make one boo boo after another. The last Ford diesel was very problematic. Our two were in the shop in Prudhoe on a regular basis. Mostly sensors & computer modules. They try to build cars with AI in the on board computers and It does not cover every eventuality. I am more convinced every day that the older technologies are better for the long haul. I would love a modern diesel like the GL320 CDI. The question is can I afford to keep it after the warranty expires? I am looking for an old diesel Land Cruiser to rebuild. They are out there. Most came in by way of Canada. After a certain age they are exempt from all the smog laws.
Isn't it interesting that the most cleaned up areas have unmitigated (DIESEL) fuel oil emissions?? Are they really saying that our mitigated diesel emissions are really the defacto way to an aggressive clean up of affected areas?
Problem is that the Prius and others like it use gasoline, a one way fuel. They may use less gasoline it but it is still a one way deal.
I have yet to see a hybrid that will run on totally renewable fuel. A compression ignition engine will. If Toyota makes a hybrid that runs on E85, how will they make up the twenty plus percent loss in FE for the spark ignition engine? As far as I have read, Toyota engineers are skeptical about building a flex fuel hybrid because of the issues associated with using E85 and aluminum alloy components.
As to power increase, in a hybrid it is temporary and intermittent. What happens when you continuously demand full power from a hybrid system? It only works so long and then relies mostly on the sewing machine engine to move it and charge the batteries. At least with a diesel you can run it at max power without serious detriment to FE.
Comments
PS
I have tried buying another VW TDI. Too expensive. I hit perfect with mine when I bought in March of 2005. Diesel was more expensive than premium. I got a deal from a Portland VW dealer. He had a good supply of Passat Wagon TDIs. Going through the Internet sales dept. I paid way under invoice. Just a few months prior the same vehicles were bringing $1000 over MSRP. In fact the dealer in Vancouver WA across the river still wanted a big premium on the TDIs. My dealer wanted to move cars. It was a fun car to drive. I would buy another 2005. I am not fond of the new ones.
Very promising but if VW does not get quality issues under control and their dealers whipped into shape, then this will be all for naught. Oldsmobile Diesel all over again. I met a doctor who owns a Toureg diesel. One of the injection pumps failed (leaking). Took four weeks to get it fixed properly. He has had one or two other small problems but his biggest headache has been trying to find a good, reliable dealership with a good service department.
1. VW needs to get more reliable with the high quality it already puts into its cars. Honda does reliability excellently with medium (to low) quality. When I compare the quality of Jetta vs Civic side by side, there is almost literally no comparison. However for a host of reasons, I am satisfied with both. While both my Jetta and Honda have BOTH been very reliable, VW seems to have a lot more issues, if some of the Edmunds.com and other web sites are any gauge.
2. My local VW dealership's physical plant is wonderful, but I surely do not get the warm fuzzies when I deal with them.
3. The service department, like wise
My unrelated questions would be how durable would the Honda with the cTDI be? For example, oem consumable items on the Honda Civic wear about 2x faster than on the VW Jetta. This is a HUGE plus for oem VW parts, especially in light of the fact the parts' prices between VW and Honda are close.
Specifically, the parts and service; Civic@ 41,500 miles: tires and alignment. Jetta, tires (just rotated and inspected at 90,000 miles) are good to go easily another 20,000 K. I have not had an alignment since the new car warranty period.
Starting to see more Chevron stations switch over to ULSD. Almost all that I frequented carried LSD until recently. Texaco, a Chevron partner has carried ULSD for sometime. Exxon also carries ULSD locally, but they tend to run ten to twelve cents more per gallon.
1. I wanted to speak with the diesel tech at the dealers to really learn about the engine and see what if any weaknesses it had. I was not allowed to do that at the two dealers I visited. Strike One!
2. VW kept changing the specs for the engine oil and the dealers I visited made it clear that VW required me to use their oil or else the warranty would be void. Strike Two!
3. Spoke to several independent garages that serviced VW almost exclusively. Front brakes were a problem (poor long term durability and expensive to fix). Maintenance was expensive and for me to do an oil change required a rack or ramps. Access to filters (oil, fuel) was a pain at best. Strike Three!
I would have like the MB E320 CDI but I did not have $51K to throw at it.
I settled on my third choice and am happy I did, the Jeep Liberty CRD. Does not get the greatest FE but 30 MPG on the road is okay by me. After nearly two years of ownership, it has proven to be quite reliable and easy to maintain. Oil change takes me twenty minutes. Had to buy one tool to remove the drain plug from the oil pan. That set me back $3.95. Everything is easy to access, I do not have the maddening limitations with the engine oil. The dealership is fabulous and the few times I have had the CRD back there for service, it was fixed correctly the first time. I can even talk to the diesel tech and ask questions. Fit and finish are at the Toyota level. No paint defects, ripples in the sheet metal, all gaps are within 0.5mm or less of each other. Everything is straight, no squeaks, rattles, nothing. It may not be as sophisticated as a VW but it works for me. The engine is fabulous with nearly 300 lb-feet of torque (2.8L four banger.
In the non-CARB areas, refiners can still sell LSD at 20% of their outlets.
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This implies that there are cars that do not lose money and are essentially investments. All cars are a losing proposition from day one and before and are a marvelous testament to the American marketing genius. They cost money to buy that you will never recover, money to operate, insure, repair , service and dispose of; not to mention the huge indirect costs of its effects on the environment that the rest of us, including our children, have to pay for.
Additionally, paying cash is not the best way to use your money. You can make more on that money investing it than you will save in interest payments; additionally, a record of car payments increases your FICO score and lowers the available interest rate to you for anything else you may want to purchase, like a house.
I got 028 cents (per mile driven, depreciation) on a 1987 TLC, when it was sold for 9,000 dollars. So over 14 years and 250,000 miles the cost per year was 500 per year or 41.67 per mo. So since I haven't sold the Jetta TDI yet that piece of data/information remains unknown.
Show me an investment that guarantees the same return rate as you are paying on your car + tax you would pay on the investment gains. Go ahead.
a record of car payments increases your FICO score and lowers the available interest rate to you for anything else you may want to purchase, like a house
Having worked in mortgages in the past, let me assure you that other factors than having had a car loan are far more important. It is an expensive way to build up your creditworthiness. Also, please do not believe that your interest rate is somehow proportionately tied to your FICO score. That score only helps (with many other factors) to place you in a category - A, B, C. Within each category everyone will get the same interest rate from the same lending institution. So, as long you are a prime borrower, you have a shot at exactly the same interest rate as any other prime borrower. Other factors, like debt ratios, will be more important in determining a particular loan eligibility, and here having an active car loan may hurt you more than help.
I would also point out to our doubter that this country is full of used car dealers that make money on nearly every car they buy. Every one that trades in a fairly new car is giving the dealer a nice bonus. Buy a vehicle right and you can make money. Rarely on a new car. Though it has been done. There is a dealer in Orange county that specializes in low mileage VW TDIs. He sells them as fast as he gets them for more than they sold for new.
PS
I have 30 years of paying my debts each month. That was until they did away the interest deduction. I wised up and pay off all debt each month. I can borrow way more than I could possibly want or need. Let some one else make BofA & Citibank rich.
This would be the absolute perfect vehicle for me and I'm sure that they would sell like hotcakes. Though it really doesn't matter until they can pass the emissions.
If you have some degree of understanding about investing you will do better over time just buying the indexes. If you want to do better than the indexes you can spend more time on studying investments, but most are not wired for this, which is fine. Avoiding risk is the most certain way to go broke - paying cash is a quick and certain way to never do better than less than average. The entire American story is one of risk and reward - avoiding it is like avoiding apple pie:) All we are ever guaranteed of is that in the end we are all dead.
2) " ... having an active car loan may hurt you more than help."
Fair Issacs states that having a record of making car payments is second only to making home payments in determining credit worthiness. It is part of a "profile", rational or not, that determines one's credit worthiness, or FICO rating. FICO ratings place you in categories A,B,C, etc., and as you stated determine your loan rates.
However, the post was originally to restate the obvious: cars are a black hole for money; they do not appreciate; they are not an asset in any investment sense; doing without one is the greatest savings; those who do without one subsidize those who have them. This is of course completely contrary to the remarkable sales job that advertising has done on Americans.
I keep hearing about this "country full of used car dealers selling diesels for more than they sold for new", yet every search I do fails to sustain this fantasy in even the most modest of ways. It is not unlike the fabulously entertaining posts on other sites where I soon expect to see a claim for diesel being a cure for cancer and that the government is secretly preventing it from coming to market to keep the medical profession afloat.
As for home equity and investments; there is an economic axiom that states that money not being used is money wasted. Businesses rarely ever tie up capital in property because the return is better in other places.
Not understanding this may be part of the misplaced messianism of the diesel promotion now actively under way by yet another wave of advertising and public relations campaigns.
Diesel is just another massive waste of resources that would be better used building mass transit systems that would have long ago eliminated this discussion board - but then where would we go for fun as we march toward oblivion watching our children die?
First, comparing guaranteed and speculative returns does not make sense. In addition, you are just plain wrong. Let me prove it - how much has the premier index S&P500 made over the last 7 years? Answer: NOTHING. If that in your opinion beats a guaranteed rate of whatever the car loans are at now, I shall beg to differ with you on that. I won't bother disputing the rest of your post because your basic premise was flawed, which I have proven.
Paying the interest just to impress a banker that you can? No, thanks.
In stark contrast, the reality: diesel is the back bone of the USA economy. You want to watch a town die? Totally ban all ICE's from entering cities: say NYC. While you are at it, ground all the planes that use jet fuel (chemically close to diesel)that service the greater NYC area. Just one week of no garbage pick up (by diesel garbage trucks, I might observe) might convince you that your dreams (of your new reality) might... stink. On the other hand, society has voted that 42,000 or so vehicle deaths per year is an ok price to pay for the transportation portion of society.
Your dream is just that, a dream.
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Not quite an honest post is it? Who in their right mind invests for only 7 years? And why not pick for your illustration seven years when the increases were 20% and more year over year? That would be just as dishonest. Investors make money - disenvestors do not. If one is happy with that circumstance - then fine - it proves only that you like that state and not that investing does not work.
2) "Paying the interest just to impress a banker that you can? No, thanks."
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If you read my post you will see that investment opportunities (opportunity costs), financial liquidity and credit worthiness were the objectives - bankers don't know, or care, who you are.
3) And again; cars being black holes for money by any computation, and not assets in any of their forms was the discussion in the post - imaginary used diesels at over retail new notwithstanding. None of this did you counter in your posts.
We were talking about a car loan. Do you get car loans for 30 years? And since you talked about smart investing, it is clear that paying cash for a car would have been smarter than putting the same money in S&P500 while paying interest on the loan. That was all I needed to prove.
cars being black holes for money by any computation, and not assets in any of their form
Here we fully agree (and I never disputed it). Let's just leave it at that before the good Host unleashes his wrath on our heads.
You are right, about bankers not caring who you are. If you have money they are more than willing to loan you more. If you don't you are on an uphill battle.
You go ahead and keep playing the stock market and paying the broker & banker. I will just horde mine. I worked too hard for my money and land to hand it over to some suit.
My land investments have far far out performed my stock investments over the last 35 years.
kcram - Pickups Host
Another modest proposal. Don't like diesel? Pretty easy to change the 3 % percentage of diesel in US and the 50% and growing in Europe: make unleaded regular ridiculously cheaper than it is now. If Europe is any example, we can see what happens when we make gasoline ridiculously more expensive. 6/7 dollars per gal in UK/Germany .30 cents in Iran. We get 50% passenger vehicle fleet populations and growing.
Want a magic wand proposal? Discover a way to make 100% of the yield of a barrel of oil: unleaded regular.
Till then, there are a host of advantages to diesel. But I think the seeds of change are more in diesel than unleaded regular gasoline. If you can run diesel, you know quite well there are multiple sources for alternative diesel fuel, i.e., bio diesel.
We need to get over the monolithic concept that the imported "oil" crisis will be solve if we chose between unleaded regular and diesel. The other thing that needs to be said is Europe imports fully 85% of its oil. So truly the theory that higher mpg vehicles will stop the importatation of foreign oil is/has been PATENTLY FALSE/untrue. Indeed Europe imports most of its imported oil from the countries in the middle east that wishes to destroy America. At max, I have read, our "foreign oil " importation from the middle east region is 12 percent of the PORTION that is imported. So why we continue to "protect" Europe when they themselves will not send the necessary troops should have its days of reckoning: the sooner the better. One sign: Let's get OUR troops out of Europe!
So let's move on !!!
Why forever complaining about that which cannot be changed?
Let's move on to PRODUCTIVE ANALYSIS and conjecture about where we should go now !!
Mandating Clean diesel is a great start.
What now?
We have the advantage over Europe in that the majority of the imported oil does not come from the middle east. Why should we protect the Europeans' oil supply and sources,when they will not even do it themselves when we are and have literally BEGGED them to help? We are still doing the "heavy lifting so to speak". I have nothing against the Europeans paying 9/10 dollars per gal or higher?!!
..."The biggest cost of car ownership isn't gas, repairs or even adding that amazing sound system. Nope, it's depreciation, or the car's decrease in value over time.
The autos that depreciate most are frequently high-volume, older vehicles. The winners? Those that are well-designed, well-engineered and are usually in limited supply and high demand, according to Kelley Blue Book, an authority on residual value."...
http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/article/102642/value-losing-cars
In car buying, one of my priority considerations has been the lowest real and projected depreciation.
As a nexus, diesel models have a VERY long way to go before it meets the above (first paragraph) real world definitions and examples. On a macro level, the diesel passenger vehicle fleet is less than 3 percent.
Of course, if any oem pulls another (in decades past) "GM like diesel fiasco" this would not be a good thing.
Truly at this point, almost any passenger vehicle fleet diesel meets the second paragraph's definition.
As another example, a VW Jetta TDI is in the subset; small car, which is 25% of the vehicle population. By definition, is a minority position. By virtue of the unleaded regular prices this is seen as a plus, better fuel mileage is seen as a plus. Being as how it doesn't use unleaded gas but diesel and diesel gets better fuel mileage than unleaded regular and now CHEAPER: an even bigger plus. The chance to either situationally or permanently use alternative fuels......!! In the VW gasser line, depending on the year, again it is a minority within THAT minority, which in the case of VW is a VERY good thing.
I personally have been having (extremely good luck,if the information is correct) very good results with the 2003 VW Jetta TDI.
We have had one for two weeks. We bought it because of the combination of utility and fuel economy. Needed (wanted is probably a better word) something bigger than a Highlander Hybrid but still wanted to feel remotely green. We have been getting 22mpg around town and 26mpg on the freeway. This is not instant read MPG. The MB trip/fuel gauge logs for the day. Days that my wife keeps the car and schleps kids and runs errands end up at 21-22. When I drive 75% freeway to work, we get 25-26. Straight freeway at 60mph is 26-27.
Great car. A lot of technology, but ez to use. Get the iPod adaptor and the bluetooth phone acc. Really cool features. The car is very quick to about 40, then the acceleration is more sedate. Fun and easy to drive... lots of room. As big as a Yukon and it gets mid 20s overall; pretty dang good. We averaged 18mpg in our smaller Pilot, so we are getting 35% better mileage in a noticeably bigger supremely comfortable truck.
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There are things that are worth discussing and things worth looking up. The GL320 is $2500 less than the GL450. The obvious reason is that in the E series you are comparing a 6 cylinder engine to a 6 cylinder engine of equivalent displacement. In the GL the diesel is two cylinders and 130cc smaller.
I like the diesel better regardless of price. The characteristics of a diesel are well matched to a truck.
Have you had it in deep snow yet? If so, what was your impression?
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Do not believe everything you read. Hybrids work. They turn the energy in the momentum of 1000s of vehicle pounds into energy stored in a battery instead of into heat produced by a brake pad. How can you not accept this? What are you reading?
Do they save enough gas to pay for the extra complexity over 4 years? Not always. But the cost difference is not dissimilar to buying the bigger engine in a given car and usually produces an equivalent power increase. Plus you do save gas $$$ and the planet at the same time. Also residual values tend to be higher on hybrids.
Did you consider the BMW X5 when you bought your GL?
..."Days that my wife keeps the car and schleps kids and runs errands end up at 21-22. When I drive 75% freeway to work, we get 25-26. Straight freeway at 60mph is 26-27.
Great car. A lot of technology, but ez to use. Get the iPod adaptor and the bluetooth phone acc. Really cool features. The car is very quick to about 40, then the acceleration is more sedate. Fun and easy to drive... lots of room. As big as a Yukon and it gets mid 20s overall; pretty dang good. We averaged 18mpg in our smaller Pilot, so we are getting 35% better mileage in a noticeably bigger supremely comfortable truck. "...
I read your post, (above quote, a primer) and noted again that diesels get better mpg than gassers. I actually would consider a Pilot, but in truth your 18 mpg (gasser) is not much better than my Toyota Landcruiser. In addition your 20 some odd mpg (21-27)diesel is on par and sometimes better than the mpg some COMPACT Honda Civic (gasser), owners get, if some threads like Edmunds.com (Honda Civic The Real World Mpg) are any indication. When you factor in the so called "new and improved" EPA ratings, it makes the diesel option all the more advantageous.
I'm all for filters but CMON NOW !! - Can't we make them out of Asbestos or something??? :shades:
http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/102655/Cities-with-Less-Smog-See-Mo- re-Green
Isn't it interesting that the most cleaned up areas have unmitigated (DIESEL) fuel oil emissions?? Are they really saying that our mitigated diesel emissions are really the defacto way to an aggressive clean up of affected areas?
I have yet to see a hybrid that will run on totally renewable fuel. A compression ignition engine will. If Toyota makes a hybrid that runs on E85, how will they make up the twenty plus percent loss in FE for the spark ignition engine? As far as I have read, Toyota engineers are skeptical about building a flex fuel hybrid because of the issues associated with using E85 and aluminum alloy components.
As to power increase, in a hybrid it is temporary and intermittent. What happens when you continuously demand full power from a hybrid system? It only works so long and then relies mostly on the sewing machine engine to move it and charge the batteries. At least with a diesel you can run it at max power without serious detriment to FE.