Diesels in the News

17576788081171

Comments

  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    If fuel prices stay down then buyers will be able to get a diesel at at smaller premium over the gassers.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the older VW TDI and MB CDI will be good buys. I think what is being done to meet the demands of CARB will make an overpriced, overly complex diesel vehicle. The premium will be about the same as the hybrids. Which is never going to be cost effective. I will try to find a used one and be satisfied with that. I will not be bullied into buying a throwaway car as we are seeing pushed onto the unsuspecting American public.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The premium will be about the same as the hybrids.

    So far, Mercedes has limited the added cost of a diesel engine to be only $1,000. Very unlike the hybrid, the small extra premium will be made up in fuel savings in a reasonable time. As well, there are no batteries to ever run out of life, and the diesel resale seems to be extraordinary. The small fluctuating differences in diesel fuel price is not nearly enough to offset the significant savings in fuel efficiency.

    The argument for diesel is logical and based in fact, not hype.

    TagMan
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    At 100,000 miles and app 4 years, while I have not realized this yet, (as I have not sold) but Edmunds.com indicates up to a 4,600 dollar higher selling price for a TDI vs a 1.8TT !! This is a 26% higher residue value at the 4 year mark. I have realized app (over the 100k miles) 1334 gals or 40% of fuel (30 vs 50 mpg). At the time, if I remember correctly there was a $246.? premium over the 1.8TT. At $3. per gal,=$4,002 in fuel saved, together $8,602.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I agree with the current premium on diesel cars such as the MB CDIs. It is all the added stuff for urea and who knows how much more electronics that has me concerned. Even the venerable Toyota is having problems with all the added crap. It is all to cut emissions by such a minimal amount that it makes absolutely no sense. It is pricing cars out of the range of those that need to upgrade from an old beater. It has done more to sell extended warranties. Maybe it is what the automakers have had in mind all along.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... I would rather have the simpler common rail Diesel; however these have not passed the on-highway, long term, in the owners' hands, test, and they are few and far between on the pre-owned market.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    This is totally off topic, but I had to spring for a EGR controller value (77,000 miles) on a 1996 Toyota Landcruiser (GASSER). It is a relatively CHEAP part, (200 bux including labor) but is tucked under the intake manifold so consumes gobs of (unnecessary) LABOR. So I will walk away with a $450. bill. Now I do not know how problematic this is, as another Toyota Landcruiser has 150,000 miles and is still running just fine.

    What is more on topic: I have heard of a lot more GASSER emissions equipment repairs and replacements, over diesels.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    As would I, but.... I would agree with your statement.

    Right now the injector system on the 2003 has literally been flawless. The guru's I trust and deal with say; look to change injectors @ 150,000-200,000 miles for best spray patterns. (not sure what the recommendation would be given a common rail injector system, even as I SWAG the recommendation would be the same) I am taking a stay the course, steady as she goes, don't fix unless broke, tack. The fuel mileage has actually improved. (oxymoronic, as the ULSD fuel has less energy, and the injectors have 100k behind them)
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Not well known and or "interneted" is my opinion of Diesel's long breakin and increased power and MPG. Many know it actually happens but my opinion is that Diesels, with their expected 250,000 plus life is that the engines have to be assembled with considerable more oil ring tension, than a gasser, that would have an average half life of a Diesel; therefore it's actually the oil rings that are over engineered and eventually reach a more moderate tension, but this takes quite awhile.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There is also an extra set of rings on diesels!

    Now I do not know the actual longer term engineering rammifications of extra rings for GASSERs, but I am sure there is indeed a "COST" driven component which probably influences why gassers are not as durable and long lasting as diesels. So for lack of low low dollar parts, the markets are denied longevity (rings .84 cents sold at 2.50 per (heard this in passing, so don't you gasser advocates hammer me on this). Conversely in diesel, because higher compression is a normal operating condition, it is "over built" relative to the gassers.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... The actual number of ring grooves varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and even engine model to model with some gaosoline truck engines also having four rings. The top / compression (especially the top) ring(s) is pressure activated, but the oil ring(s) are on a preset drag / tension, and the drag is constant on every stroke.
  • kreuzerkreuzer Member Posts: 131
    on this website, grinningplanet.com? According to them, they say it costs more to produce diesel than gasoline. :confuse:
    They also give more atta-boys for the use of gasoline compared to diesel.
    I would think by reading this forum that bio-diesel would be a good way to drastically reduce our need for foreign oil. :confuse: Isn't biodiesel a step in the right direction for making this happen?
    I really would like to make my next car, truck, etc., to be diesel but now I'm not clear on this. Would someone out there be able to explain my confusion? Thanks folks! :)
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Kreuzer, number two fuel oil (the most widely used) is a less complex refinery process. There are other issues mainly road tax and on a big picture, world market view, it appears that the amount of number two in Europe has an effect on the USA market. Also the type of crude best for low sulfur results, factors in. My opinion that for less total carbon footprint and better MPG, Diesel is the best way. There is not even a contest, that Diesel bio-fuels, are far ahead now and in the future than anything that can be used in a gasoline engine with the possible exception of methane. Also bio-Diesel has zero sulfur.
    ... The old fears of particulate matter and NOx have been almost eliminated with common rail injection, a particulate trap, one converter, and possibly more sophisticated systems. Read on in this site there is plenty of good info.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "What Does One Barrel Of Crude Oil Make?"

    http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/crude_products.aspx

    This is lifted from the government EIA data.

    So have a look and see why as a point of discussion, I have been saying app 23% (current population is less than 3%) is a good short (10 years aggressive to 30 years more probable) term target for the diesel passenger fleet population. Europe is currently at over 50% diesel passenger vehicle fleet and the % is GROWING

    Whatever is decided, the ones who currently have passenger diesel vehicles have anywhere from a 20-40% fuel SAVINGS advantage. So if they increase the price of diesel fuel that will signal that despite all protestations to the contrary, they do NOT want to decrease the overall USE of unleaded regular and premium.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Speaking of bio-Diesel, France will produce almost one million metric tons of rapeseed oil this year, with a substantial portion exported to Germany. This was Rudolf Diesel's first fuel.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Okay, this has to be the ultimate definition of the EGR bureaucratic bungle. A few years back a substantial group of engineers from three of the largest Diesel engine builders on Earth got together, in desperation, and conspired to fool CARB and EPA. It was relatively easy. When big trucks and engines are tested they are not operated by manual or foot controls but a cannon plug is plugged into a lap top or dyno testing software. So they programed the fuel curves for the test mode, and were able to pass the NOx regs when tested only. Well, somebody must have whistle blew on them, and these graduate level engineers were facing jail time.
    ... Fortunately, somebody in the Justice Department, did a little common sense thinking, that must have been like this: either we have a bunch of hardened criminals in some of our best industries or there must be bungling desk jockeys running CARB and EPA. He or she probably was aware of the MTBE now seeping into our groundwater and leaned toward the latter reasoning. The companies were allowed to pay a fine, with no admission of guilt.
    ... BTW, this was all to avoid the absolutely disgusting, EGR systems described in my previous EGR post, that any hands on engineer would recognize.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am surprised they didn't bring out the rusty nails for a proper crucifixion. :(:)
  • kreuzerkreuzer Member Posts: 131
    can be produced? Can we (domestically) produce enough of biodiesel to provide for all our needs? I can't imagine growing enough plants to provide this. :confuse: Does anyone have any reliable info on this?
    Thanks!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This company in Kirkland WA is converting vehicles from gas to diesel for those that want to be environmentally green and cut our use of fossil fuel. When the major automakers fail us, some grass roots companies will find a way.

    Many concerned environmentalist would like to dump their gas vehicles in favor of a more eco-friendly alternative. Running on biodiesel results in a dramatic 90% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions compared to the equivalent gasoline powered vehicles. So obviously biodiesel is a great choice for a green vehicle. So what types of cars can run on biodiesel? Only those with diesel engines of course and that would include Volkswagen Tdis, Mercedes sedans, old Volvo diesels, and larger trucks that come in a diesel version. In the passenger diesel vehicle market, your choices are quite limited.

    With this in mind, we decided that we would help fill a hole in the market by providing some more biodiesel vehicle choices. That is why we are taking two models, the Volvo 240 wagon and gas Vanagon and converting them to diesel.


    http://www.thegreencarco.com/product_info/gas_to_diesel_conversions/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    This might seem a tad off topic in relation to your post but one of the things that really is super cool, yet pretty well hidden is the hp and especially torque upgrades that can be done with app 1 hour's of professional time or if one knows what one are doing-ones' own time (aka sweat equity-cheaper). To use a 2003 Jetta's example, the 1.8T and the 6 cyn engines have torques of 173/195 #ft of torque vs a 155# ft of torque for the TDI. With JUST the upgrade from the stock injectors (.184) to the injectors used on the European models (.205), this will get the torque up from 155# to 195# ft, matching as you can see, the V6 torque figures!! The cost is app 300 dollars. Indeed a few aftermarket manufacturers have higher quality and yet cheaper than oem replacement injectors. Since the current 5 speed clutch is designed to last 300-500k (with a little luck) I will probably boost the injectors (as the injectors will need changing ANYWAY) and probably also do a V6 clutch kit change.(to more properly match the higher torque output)- Might be good to go for the second 500,000 miles. :shades: Anyone that has done a 25 hp/40# ft of torque upgrade knows it will cost far more for a gasser. The interesting twist is if one does not get into the increased hp/torque, the fuel mileage actually gets better. Add a 5th gear modification and that can add another 1/2 mpg. I would shudder to think how (in a misguided effort to match mpg) how much it would cost to do this to a hybrid, like a Prius, for example @ 300,000 to 500,000 miles. :lemon:
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... The number that needs much more public awareness and should be tatooed on all CARB and EPA employees bathroom mirrors is: CO2, grams per mile and or grams per kilometer.
  • kreuzerkreuzer Member Posts: 131
    As I've read here in this forum, VW, Honda and Mercedes are coming out with clean diesels in the U.S. Now VW and Honda may be doable for my wallet but Mercedes is out of my league. :cry:
    Does anyone have any further info. on other auto companies coming out with "affordable" diesels in the next couple of years? Where can I research and keep updated on the Web about these new offerings? Any suggestions and/or answers to my questions? Thanks folks! :)
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    VW is already in the market with the TDI Jetta and Rabbit(the Beetle may be available also). They are not 50-state compliant so if you are in one of the CAFE regulation states (CA+ 5 others) you won't find them at a dealership or on VW's website.

    Honda is supposed to be 2009.

    Mercedes is also available right now. As you say, they are out of most of our league...
  • hwyhobohwyhobo Member Posts: 265
    Does anyone have any further info. on other auto companies coming out with "affordable" diesels in the next couple of years?

    Ford will be announcing new clean diesels at the Frankfurt show under the name "ECOnetic". However, there is no word of whether Ford plans to bring them to the US any time soon if at all. Ford is also announcing a European replacement for the Fiesta - the Verve. Alas, the article in Autoweek also says, "Versions for North America and Asia will reach showrooms between 2008 and 2010". To me that means, "cheapened and no diesel and no hatchback". I will take bets on it.

    Ford seems to treat US market like the third world these days.
  • kreuzerkreuzer Member Posts: 131
    It really doesn't make any sense why Ford says they aren't interested in the small diesel market here in the States and yet offer these nice alternatives to Europe/Asia. :mad:

    I hope they change their mind and bring there clean burning diesels home. I can't feel sorry for the big three when they don't offer the varieties that they offer outside the States when there are ways to meet the environmental issues. :confuse:
  • megamikemegamike Member Posts: 42
    Interesting vehicle coming from India that will have a "Green" diesel engine pumping out 190hp and 300lb of torque, get over 30mpg, have over one ton payload (on pick-up models) and be priced under $25k - that would be great!!. They also have an SUV with same performance numbers for a bit over $25k - AND STILL GET OVER 30MPG"S
    Pickuptruck.com did an interview with the CEO of GV-USA about the expectations of the diesels that come with each model.
    Check this site out:www.gv-usa.com/videofoxnews.php
  • kreuzerkreuzer Member Posts: 131
    Thanks for the links and if you know of anymore, please pass them along. :)
  • megamikemegamike Member Posts: 42
    The GV-USA site has other links under "news". Wish these cars would get here sooner, as I need a new car now.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Great looking vehicle. Very practical, my highest priority. Mahindra tractors have sold good here. They offer a lot more bang for the buck than Kubota tractors.

    I would say the Chinese and Indian Mfg will be cutting deep into the USA market by 2012. Toyota, Honda and Nissan will be impacted the most as they are the majors in the economy vehicle race. Their also the highest priced currently. The Korean makers will have less of a struggle to match pricing.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So also if you look at how long it took the Japanese to bring UP the quality to so called current levels, (37 years)the real questions; how long for the Chinese and Indians.

    (baseline: quality of (my) 1970 VW Beetle vs (an absolutely pos) 1970 Japanese vehicle)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I think "cutting deep" by 2012 is probably not possible.

    They don't even have any dealerships yet, and the competition for entering any new market makes it a hard struggle.

    Look how long Hyundai took until they started getting accepted as a mainstream US car. Sold first cars here in 1986, and just only recently started being considered a real competitor to the big Japanese brands.

    2025 is probably a better date for the "cutting deep" prediction. By that time they are MAYBE as established as Hyundai is right now, if they are VERY lucky, and Hyundai is not yet even "cutting deep" into the USA market.
  • megamikemegamike Member Posts: 42
    I think they said they already have 240 dealers signed up and expecting to have 300 - 400 by launch.

    The only difference here from Hundai is that Mahindra is offering something that no other manufacturer is providing but a lot of US buyers want - a low cost SUV or Pickup that has a 50 state "clean" diesel which gets over 30mpgs.

    The standard ABS, electronic stability, 6sp tranny, and 4yr/60,000mi warranty is just gravy - IF the vehicle is ultimately well made. That is the only ?? to me. And in the FOX video, I didn't like how the vehicles made the glub glub sound. Hope that gets corrected by final production.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    If they can put 400 dealers on the ground in a year, I can give them comparable sales of about what Hyundai had in year 5.

    So they might have the same market impact as Hyundai does in 2007 by 2020 if they REALLY take off.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They will sell for the same reason the Prius sells. They look different and get the best mileage in their class... An SUV that gets 35 MPG will be easy to sell here for $25k.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    Prius gets good mileage in city, but not top of the class on highway driving. Put a prius in the mountains and it will fail.

    A SUV that gets 35MPG LOL, no, no, no
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Touareg 5 cylinder diesel that just won its class in the Baja 500 could do 35 MPG easy. I don't think you would get 35 MPG out of a MB ML320 CDI on the highway. I think it would have to be midsized.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Touareg curb weight--5086 pounds

    MB M class curb weight--4623 pounds

    Must be a difference in the engines.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Since the Toureg only comes in a V10 in the USA market, we might have a tendency to think it as another example of a gargantuan gas guzzler. Actually there are a huge number of options both gasser and diesel for this make and model. Indeed it is a prime example of the execution of the platform model.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Key word there is, "in class". VW has also had some rally V~10 Diesel's. Man, they are rare.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Audi will introduce diesel in late 08.

    quote Automotivenews-
    On the diesel side, Audi plans to bring in a turbodiesel Q7 with a 3.0-liter V-6 powerplant producing about 230 hp and about 400 pounds-feet of torque. It will be available for all 50 states at the end of 2008 in low volume. The diesel is expected to have a 600-mile range on one tank of gasoline.-end

    It has been a loooonnnngg time since Audi sold diesels in the US.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    The diesel is expected to have a 600-mile range on one tank of gasoline.-end

    How far will it go on one tank of diesel?
  • moochorbbmoochorbb Member Posts: 16
    check out the new Maxima diesel coming to the US

    Green Car Congress
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    Sounds sweet! Although I imagine some of you won't like that EGR comment....
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    WOW! This diesel engine segment is a another killer application if you can label anything as such. Off the top of my head, this is as potent as the MB E320/350 power plant and the current MSRP (if you can get one) at app 52k. (not that I am suggesting a comparo between MB E series against a Nissan) The MB E320 CDI does app 40 mpg at 80 mph highway.
  • megamikemegamike Member Posts: 42
    How far will it go on one tank of diesel?

    Good one ; ) That audi will probably START at $45k.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Should be well over 800 miles! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I tend to see this metric in terms of like models and their tank capacity/s. For example 2003 VW Jetta 1.8T/TDI specs 14.5 gals. @ 30/50 mpg, ranges of 420/700 miles or 40% more. If I drive 1700-2000 rpms, we are talking 55-58 mpg or NOW a range of 770 to 812 miles. (93% more)
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... I was also concerned that the next gen Audi will have EGR. The regs apparently can't be met without EGR and or urea downstream injection. The reg bodies probably will not do a benefit / analysis looksee comparing the last few percentage gains in NOx reduction to the inevitable increase CO2 production when using EGR. Trying to get them to look at issues such as how much sooner the engine wears out with EGR (and the increase of the much filthier blowby) will be staunchly fought because THEY know they can't win that one.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    While I am not a fan of EGR use, I think we need to keep in mind that ULSD is becoming far more available across the nation. While October 6, 2006 is look on as the "ABSOLUTE" cut over date, the truth is more of a multiple year phase in across the nation.

    The nexus is structurally (exponentially) less SOOT generation. (500 ppm USD vs 15 ppm ULSD) where "the rubber meets the road": TBN numbers with UOA's indicate are literally almost unaffected as compared to USD use! The fear and long term concern was soot caked EGR and intake manifold after "X" miles, because of 2 issues:

    1. use of LSD vs ULSD with a vehicle designed for ULSD

    2. EGR as more of an after thought, rather than slick integral design.

    The short to longer term concern: this would trigger either, a very expensive dealer bill to clean those parts and pathways and/or long DIY cleaning procedure. The symptoms can range from a loss of power and torque, to the worst case of cylinder damage due to soot "paste" being draw and exploded in the combustion chamber causing catastrophic damage.

    When I bought my 2003 VW JETTA TDI, #2 LSD was the commonly available fuel. ULSD and bio diesel were available, but only "boutique like".

    Since I had no real way of measuring this, articles I have read indicated that BEFORE the OCT 6, 2006 cut over CA diesel was LSD @ 140 ppm (with farm diesel,aka red dye @500 ppm) 49 state was up to LSD @ 500 ppm.

    So at 100,000 miles due to a timing belt interval, we had the EGR and intake manifold apart. While it was black, it was pronounced "good to go" to another 100,000 mile interval (next 100,000 mile timing belt interval @200,000 miles). The guru doing the timing belt and EGR/intake inspection did say he thought the majority use of CA LSD (140 ppm) probably did help keep soot generation resulting in caking, down. I do also have to say I did fuel in 11 other states. The majority however was CA #2 LSD. In addition, most folks in the TDI community have at least heard that one should drive it slightly "robustly" to keep the soot at bay. Since October 6,2006, ULSD was commonly available across CA state.

    There are other vendor signals indicating this important but subtle shift. VW 507.00 is the new oil standard, it is labeled as "long life" (or some such). The key point however is the upper CONSERVATIVE limits of this oil specification is 30,000 miles (due to the engineering specifications up and down the food chain, starting with the base line of ULSD) !!! This is up from 10,000 miles OCI.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.