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Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories
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Socal, if my $25K offer fell within their range of acceptable prices, don't you think they would accept it once I started to walk out?
You could walk out on Monday and the dealership might accept the same offer on Tuesday. Sometimes they're testing you, the same way you're testing them. They'll let you walk for the moment, thinking maybe they'll get you later.
I walked out on a deal some years ago, and they called back a couple days later and were very close to meeting it. By that time I'd bought something else, at the price I wanted to pay.
Too bad for the first guy, but I guess he was "testing the market" himself.
Lets pick a car, any car *snicker*
Then we let bobst determine a price. Edmunds gives bobst a check to go buy the vehicle (sorry, bobst - you cant keep it)
Then, if bobst fails, we send in socal and he can negotiate longer than a hyundai warranty - he just can't buy for a penny more than bobst price.
I might have to spin this idea for a reality tv show. *nodbonk*
With the "take it or leave it", no fuss/no muss approach, probably not. The salesguy has little or nothing to lose by walking away from you, because he is not invested in the outcome that you desire, i.e. a closed deal. Particularly on a busy day, he can simply move onto the next guy without much worry.
What you want from the salespeople are their (a) time and (b) commitment. (By the way, you may notice that the multiple-closer system is designed around extracting these very same things from you.) The greater the amount of their previous investment, the more likely they are to want to convert that investment into a deal, because otherwise, that investment of time and effort will have produced no results. The desire to turn prior investment into a payoff is what will get you a better deal.
Time creates commitment, which creates something for your opponent to lose. It's the same impulse that you find in the casino, when losing gamblers place stupid bets "to win back their money," because of that inate desire to recoup one's losses. As the deal proceeds, the compromises that would have been rejected previously begin to look better and better when the remaining alternative is to come away with nothing.
In the ideal situation, you create an imbalance where you will happily walk, but he can't afford to let you walk. In that scenario, you have absolutely nothing to lose by walking, whereas he has a good deal to lose by letting you go.
Do you recall the other thread when the salesperson tried to get you to value your shopping time at a high hourly rate when evaluating your shopping choices? I hope that you can see that this was her attempt to get you to do the opposite of what I'm advising, i.e. for you to place such a high value on your time that it is you who becomes the one who can't afford to walk. If you have nothing to lose, you are much more likely to win at an aggressive price point (assuming you know what an aggressive price point is.)
So where do you start your offer at? I know your example takes dealer's cost + $100, but how do you know where to start for the "+ $x" on a particular car?
For example, if you offered cost + $100 on a Honda Accord, they might accept it right away. If you offered cost + $100 on a BMW 750Li, they would laugh and ask if that was a joke. Even if you then start your increments upwards, how much of a jump do you make? If you go by $100's on the 750Li, they'll still laugh at you. On a Honda, however, it would be nothing out of the ordinary.
Most people here are pretty aware that Hondas and Toyotas will sell at around invoice, but what about all other makes and models? Even if you still know the invoice price and make an offer based on "invoice + $x", you need to know the market to know what "$x" is reasonable.
OK. Interesting example you chose here. NOW, to really compare it to what you are talking about, let's say your employer turns to you tomorrow and says "we're lowering your salary by $100 per week because that is what we are putting into your 401k."
How do you feel about that? You are trying to do nearly the same thing to a dealer.
Of course, this isn't a perfect match because the dealer's holdback still isn't "profit" like your 401k is, but I'm trying to work with your example here.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The dealer is no victim here -- this is a business deal. If the dealer wants to sell the car to me, then he will; if he doesn't want to sell the car to me, then he won't. My job is to pay as little as possible, and I won't apologize for saving money.
Just FYI: Not all manufacturers have holdback....
Edmunds Holdback
The longer you spend in a negotiation the more likely you are to make concessions. You may have flown to San Francisco to negotiate a large business deal. At 8 o'clock the next morning, you're in their office feeling bright, fresh, and determined to hang in and accomplish all of your goals. Unfortunately, it doesn't go as well as you hoped. The morning drags on without any progress, so you break for lunch. Then the afternoon passes, and you've reached agreement on only a few minor points. You call the airline and reschedule for the midnight flight. You break for supper and come back determined to get something done. Look out. Unless you're very careful, by 10 o'clock you'll start making concessions that you never intended to make when you started that morning.
Why does it work that way? Because your subconscious mind is now screaming at you, "You can't walk away from this empty handed after all the time and effort you've spent on it. You have to be able to put something together." Any time you pass the point where you're prepared to walk away, you have set yourself to lose in the negotiations.
Time is comparable to money. They are both invested, spent, saved, and wasted. Do invest the time to go through every step of the negotiation, do use time pressure to gain the advantage, and don't yield to the temptation to rush to a conclusion. Power Negotiators know that time is money.
"How Time Pressure Affects the Outcome of a Negotiation"
Note that a key element to your success is to avoid assigning value to your time. You know up-front that the dealer has built-in time pressures and opportunity costs (the choice of dealing with you or a different customer) to worry about, which you can use to your advantage. Just be sure that you don't reveal any of your time pressures (unless you are creating some as part of a ploy to force things to a close), or you will lose negotiating leverage, accordingtly.
Maybe that would be true in a small town, Bianca, but in our area with lots of dealers they probably figure the buyer will just go somewhere else.
For example we have a certain market area that we must sell our vehicles in. If we sell outside the zip code range then we do not get any business builder for that transaction. We have sold outside the market area on a couple of occasions but we charged the customer over MSRP on the cars to make up for the loss on the other side. This was on first/limited edition cars where they were only importing a 150 or so.
If we sell too many vehicles out of area Land Rover will cut our allocations and reduce our overall business builder percentage.
Do you all think this is true?
For example, assume I offer $25K OTD for a car and have it turned down. Could Socal come in and negotiate for awhile and get them to accept $25OTD? "
No, I don't believe this is true in car sales between dealer and consumer. I believe that with every vehicle, there is a bottom line dollar amount to sell that car. That dollar amount can be made by the selling price, trade in, add-ons, and financing. Offer anything above the bottom line dollar amount, stick to your guns, and you've got a sale.
Granted the bottom line dollar amount is also affected by time of the month, bonus commissions, etc. But a good salesman doesn't let his emotions affect the business end of the deal.
I'd suggest that you read the link above re: time and time pressures, and how they can impact negotiation.
Time does affect negotiation, and learning this will also lead you to see why making your first offer your best-and-final offer is not generally the best idea.
Prices truly are fungible, and emotion doesn't really have much to do with it -- part of it is about assigning an economic value to one's time, and trying to achieve a payoff from it. While you can't expect the dealer to pay you to take the car from his lot, you can certainly pay a low price, with your effective use of time and technique helping you to get a price that some others could not.
I disagree.... The salesman is much more of an expert negotiator.
I've also cut deals for a living (much bigger deals than car purchases), and can tell you that this guy's observations are spot on. Car purchases are no exception -- in fact, dealers often make an effort to try to wear down the customer, using time to their advantage. Fortunately, that tactic is easily flipped back around to become a disadvantage to them, if you know how to use it.
Could Bob maybe haggle down a few $$? Possibly. But remember, even if the dealer makes the first offer, it is likely to be way high, same as a buyers first offer is likely to be way low.
At least Bob is comfortable, in his mind, that the price offered represents good value. And after all, that is the definition of a good deal.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2006 civic sedan w/ nav system, manual with the following options:
(deck lid spoiler,side spoiler,splash guards,chrome exhaust, fog lights, all season mats, cargo net, trunk tray, leather wheel cover, base speaker kit,interior gauge kit and auto day/night mirror)
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!!
-tten
I would agree that this is likely his concern, but I do believe that folks like Bob are selling themselves short.
With proper planning, you can plan your counters well before you ever get into the dealership. (I'll be vague, but one hint: you are not obliged to respond simply by countering with a higher price, there are other ways to counter aside from bidding the cost upward.)
Although you obviously can't go about negotiating like a robot, it is not hard with proper planning to avoid being pushed into paying more than you planned, and you may even be able to pay less. Again, if you name the first numbers, and focus only on numbers, then your numbers can only get bigger, which means that you will end up paying more than you might have.
But if one is still fearful of negotiating, then Bob's method can deliver reasonable results, although one must be prepared to potentially walk out of a lot of dealerships in the process to get there. (Personally, I'm happy to walk out as necessary, but I use walking to clinch a negotiated deal, not during the beginning of the exchange.)
Before I go on, please site your references and sources, please. I'd like to see where that came from...... (Oh yeah, and you never answered Terry's questions about what you do/did for a living!!!)
Moving on..... If a dealer gets bonus money for earning high CSI scores, you're gonna call that "a form of holdback" ?? That money ain't guaranteed, by any means! To compare, GM dealers get 3% of ANY car in holdback, guaranteed, no exceptions.... That is very different.
The only way they would get any money is if they are a top regional scorer. It has nothing to do with units sold. Just because there is money going from manufacturer to dealer does not mean it is "holdback." It is a bonus for the best performance in the region/country.
Whether it's guaranteed or not, or whatever are the precise reasons that the dealer gets the payment, is not really the point.
The point is that the dealer gets the money, my purchase helps him to get that money, and I can use that fact to my advantage. It helps me to understand that a deal at or near invoice is possible much of the time because there is extra money in the pot that is being paid in addition to my purchase price. That's enough info to help me get what I need.
Really, feel free to pay more if you like, no one is stopping you. Someone needs to help my deals work, so it may as well be you.
If the alternative is to get these items dealer-installed, I'd want to know what I'd have to pay in the aftermarket for the parts and installation, so that you can guesstimate a good price for including these. Unfortunately, the equivalent to invoice pricing for dealer-installed options is not going to be available at Edmunds or KBB, so this may involve more research from the aftermarket, combined with a bit of guesswork. And you may wish to buy them in the aftermarket, rather than from a dealer, particularly if you have specific equipment in mind.
I'd also look for a forum that caters to people who like to mod their Hondas, that might give you some ideas of what you'd want.
That in itself will be hard to find. Have you found any in your area? Honda really hit the bulls-eye with the new Civic. Have you been over to the Civic fora, specifically Prices Paid?
Most folks are posting as having paid right about MSRP, some have posted lower but very few. You may even be able to get one at or below invoice, but they'll make up for that with all the add-ons you want.
My advice, go over to Civic Prices Paid and determine what they're going for in your area. Do your homework on what the add-ons will cost you. Add 'em up and if you find a manual with navi, jump on it.
To me, that implies you plan to make more than one counter-offer. Before you make your second counter-offer, I assume you must know your first counter-offer has been refused.
How do you know your first counter offer has been refused?
I am also curious what others think about this.
Now, lets go a bit further. After Bob accepted the price, he quickly moved with F&I office, declined all junk offers bought the warranty at a decent discount and drove home happy. Socal, on the other hand is already, hungry, thirtsty and his wife already called him three times "when do you come, honey". So he goes to F&I and the the lithany of junk add-ons starts there. He wanted to finance and F&I guy pulls a fast one on him "Sir, your initial credit check was good, but after looking again, we have to bump your APR up". Socal likes the car, got an amazing deal, knows that in the next dealership he would have to restart the arguing from scratch. Nevertheless, he pretends a walkout - the F&I manager stops him and offers just 0.5% markup, which Socal accepts. Now the real funs starts - add-ons. Say Socal is not dumb, he knows all of it is junk, but it takes another hour to decline all of it, each time arguing with the guy. So it is 7 pm Saturday and happy Socal gets his $300 under market value with not so great financing.
Tell you what - I excaggerated here of course, for the dramatic effect. We all like to save - the only question is are the savings worth OUR time? Sometimes they are. Another thing is that after long hour WE can become vulnerable for a fast one, because the Socal's sword has double edge, i.e. we invested so much time on first part of the deal and now we deal with F&I guy, who just started with us and has a fresh look on his face.
I think if you are confident your offer is reasonable for the dealer but comfortable for you, Bob's approach is just for you. If you cannot stand a thought that your next door neighbor could/would have paid $300-500 less, Socal is your guy. Most of us would probably fall somewhere in between, or perhaps might use other methods.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If I had walked in and offered $19800, do you think they would have accepted it?
If they had declined my offer and then I started to walk out, would they have suddenly changed their mind and accepted it?
Like I said before - Socal's method of using time invested in us has the second edge - it is OUR time invested in the deal as well. Who wants to have 3 or 4 weekends wasted just because we have to walk out after several hours? Nobody. The customer is dealing with professionals, who do it every day. They are better prepared to make us believe that the deal is about to fall apart if we don't get that 8.5% APR financing than we to make impression that if we don't get 3.9% (with that cash rebate included, of course
So ultimately, both sides are invested heavily after several hours, both sides would like to hook the other, but guess who is likely to be better prepared and in a better psychological shape after all this time. Remember - they can just turn us over to another guy, who doesn't need to be as attached (he just came from his lunch break, got handed the paperwork and told to get another few hundreds out of it. We on the other hand have to stay all the way, had no lunch (just a candy bar from the vending machine), and have still couple of stages before us.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Just for example I had two new customers come in yesterday not counting any phone calls or internet leads.
Sidenote: I did sell a car purely over the phone yesterday to a guy in the midwest who is coming out here to visit family later in the week and will drive his new car back.
I spent a little over two hours with these two customers just talking about the vehicle. We didn't go for a test drive. We didn't even start up the car we just looked at the cars we had in their showroom. We talked numbers but just in generalities. For example a used range rover with X equipment and Y miles would start around Z dollars for an asking price.
They will both be back within the next 2-4 weeks to test drive a couple of different vehicles which will probably take an hour to an hour and a half each. One of those two people will buy a car from me within the next 3-6 months. If I have done everything properly during the previous visits the final negotiation of that one vehicle probably won't take more then an hour and even if it does that does not really matter to me. During delivery of that one vehicle I will probably spend at least another hour and a half with them in addition to all the time I spent with them before.
So if I add up all my time with those two customers from greeting to delivery I am looking at about 8-9 hours of my time for one sale. That is perfectly fine and does not bother me one bit. We are very low pressure here and spending that much time for one sales is just fine with me.
Another key item to successful negotiations is the ability to tell if the negotiation will drag on or not early on and if it would be profitable to continue if it will drag on. In the example above it says "The morning drags on without any progress, so you break for lunch." Right there you should be assessing if you even want to continue it past that point.
Usually in negotiation for a car I can tell within the first 15 minutes if negotiations are going to be fast and easy or long and difficult. At that point I can see where we are at and make a decision to take their offer, try negotiations for a little more and try to get a happy medium, dig in for a long fight or cut and run.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You know your first counter offer has been refused when they reject it.
Now if you're asking how do you know that your first counter offer will be refused before you make it you don't. But you go in prepared for it happening. In other words negotiation is much like playing chess, you have to anticipate your opponents moves and be prepared to counter any foreseeable moves. If you don't you can easily be blind sided in the process.
Typically your first counter offer should be less than what you are willing to buy the car for, that way you can move up to that price. If it is accepted it is a mixed blessing. Its good because you got a lower price than you expected, its bad because it might not have been the lowest price.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You nailed it Socal is near the trap he warned about in post # 726. I know we are talking about ext reams here but Socal has invested 3+ hours getting his price, now he has 3+ hours invested and is starting negotiations with someone who has zero time invested.
At this point most people would be tired and worn down and would not do well at this point. But there are others who love to play these games and will continue strong, socal might be one of them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You start with below cost, and keep increasing till you get a sale. You get to know the market by the reaction of the dealer as you offer them a price. As I said, all it gurantees is that you pay a reasonable price, not necessarily the lowest that the market will bear.
Actually, you went a whole lot further than that!
It might help you to know that my car buying actually doesn't take very long at all. (From what I've read on some of these forums, many others who have paid more also take a good deal longer.) Having your research done in advance and a gameplan to negotiate gives you the confidence to execute effectively, which in turn helps you to speed things up.
The point of not assigning value to your time is not so that you can spend hours and hours negotiating. The point for you is to stay focused on the deal, so that you have a nothing-to-lose attitude, which in turn helps you clinch the deal. You will actually shorten your negotiation time if you have the right attitude and game the situation properly.
I think what most of you miss is that much of the negotiation process has nothing to do with money. What it's really about is your opponent sizing you up, and playing you for your weaknesses to get what he wants. His goal is to gain information about you, and to use that information to maximize the profit centers available in the deal.
If you place a value on your time, and this becomes clear to your opponent that you have done this, guess what -- he's going to squeeze you for your time! By worrying about your time, you've handed him a weapon, and you can bet that it will be used against you. Hot buttons get pushed, and a salesman's job is to find yours and push them.
But if you don't worry about time, then guess what happens? The dealer's attempts to waste your time (which is a key element of the dealer's multiple-closing methods -- to good cop-bad cop you and wear you down) are used precisely because you value your time. When the other side realizes that you have an infinite appetite to haggle, guess what? They'll stop, because they realize that burning your time doesn't work, and only wastes their own time.
The key is to find that balance at which you pass the salesman's point of no return, that point at which the dealer gains investment in your deal and would hate to have you walk without a deal. That is not going to happen in 5-10 minutes, but it doesn't take all day, either.
You made the comparison, so if you don't see it, nobody will.
Anyway, you are saying holdback is additional "profit" that you should righteously claim as a negotiation point and get some of that money taken off your purchase. Likewise, in your 401k example, your employer should use that matching contribution to take money from your purchase price (in this case, your salary).
The dealer is no victim here -- this is a business deal. If the dealer wants to sell the car to me, then he will; if he doesn't want to sell the car to me, then he won't.
I couldn't agree more. Only difference is, you seem to think bringing holdback into the equation should be a fact of negotiation. Personally, I think that is just as rude as the aforementioned employer who uses your other benefits to lower your salary.
How about this... go into your next negotiation and say "ya know, this was a particularly warm February this year, so your heating bill was lower, therefore I want more money off."
If these are lines you are willing to cross, more power to ya. Just don't expect everyone to have the same lack of respect and dignity.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But my point is that for some people time has an actual value. For all of us, time has an actual emotional value (time spent in the waiting room vs. time spent with family), for many it also can be quantified in dollars. That's why some people would not work paid overtime even if it was paid with a nice bonus! It similar to quantifying whether or not spending extra 3 hours in a airport it is worth $40 of savings. We all have point of diminishing return (the capital here it time).
"Point of no return" works for both the customer and the dealer. The customer also reaches that point, in which they already invested so much time/emotions that a prospect of going again because the guy would not offer a good APR or will push the overpriced warranty so hard. Now, who is better trained to deal with such a situation? Guys who do it for living or people who do it every 2/3/5/10 years? Plus, who really is in "point of no return", when you got a great price, the car config is not so common (and you want it bad - you didn't really show it, but you want THAT one), your credit is OK, but not top 5%, etc?
I say again - if YOU REALLY believe you can withstand all the pressure, and YOU REALLY want to buy for the lowest price (and get best trade and best APR), cause it would kill you if your neighbor got it for $200 less (or whatever your other motivation might be), be my guest.
I am just trying to say that many of us may not such faith in our skills and moreover, have BETTER things to do with their weekends, even at cost of some $$$, provided the price was reasonable at the first place (not the lowest, but quite allright) and other terms acceptable as well.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2. I think what most of you miss is that much of the negotiation process has nothing to do with money. What it's really about is your opponent sizing you up, and playing you for your weaknesses to get what he wants. His goal is to gain information about you, and to use that information to maximize the profit centers available in the deal.
Without even going through the rest of your post, #2 shows me you've already spent way more time on this than I would.
You walk in with a number. Will they take it? yes or no? If no, its over. No negotiating. No BS'ing. No wasting time. No "sizing up." You walk out and move on.
I've bought my last 6 cars with no negotiating and gotten great deals on all of them (even compared to the grinders here on Edmunds).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Actually, I would advise that buyers generally avoid making any mention of the holdback. It might be OK if you need to counter the "I'm not making any money on this deal" schtick that the dealer will often use to get you to counter your own counter, but otherwise, it's not necessary to bring it up.
Buyers should understand holdback because it helps you to know that by closing your deal, the dealer will be paid additional sources of revenue, above and beyond what you pay him, that indirectly help your deal to be accepted. These extra sources can make a very low price deal more doable than you might think.
If you know that your "$100 over invoice" deal also yields your dealer an $800 holdback and other sources of revenue, and that his true cost of the car is really about just a couple of hundred dollars (the "floorplan"), then you can understand why your cheap deal is actually quite acceptable. Think of the holdback as a form of subsidy that makes deals work that might otherwise not make sense, and then use that to your advantage.
Oh I don't know, One time I walked out of a deal right at the end, five minutes from getting into my new car and driving off with the deal I wanted after spending a considerable amount of time trying to make a deal. There are things that are simple not negotiable regardless of how much time you spend.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Personally, I think that walking out of five dealerships to get a higher priced deal at the sixth is going to be far more time consuming (and is probably more costly, too).
If you know how to negotiate, you can buy a car from just about anyone, and walking out will be unnecessary (except possibly as a ploy used at the last minute to close the current negotiation). If you find most of your time is spent "walking out" with no one chasing you to your car, then you are doing something wrong.
How do you know your offer has been rejected?
Because the sales manager says it has been rejected? Get real!!
Almost every time I buy a car, the sales manager does not accept my offer. However, when we start to walk out, they usually change their mind.
I am very interested in your answer.
Bob
I think that sums it up -- you've decided to lose before you've even started. A lot of this comes down to self-fulfilling prophecy. If you are determined to lose, you will.
People who do poorly in negotiation are generally self-absorbed in their approach. They worry about their own risks, their own problems, their own downsides and disadvantages, etc., all while paying little attention to what the other guy wants, needs and fears.
If you want to walk on a high wire without falling off, the last thing you want to do is to worry about falling off. Focusing on your risks and disadvantages actually increases the likelihood of you making a mistake. Focus instead on figuring out what makes the other guy tick, and you'll do far better.
Car buying is easy, because figuring out the dealer is very easy. You know what he pays for the car (invoice and floorplan), you know that he gets extra money once he has sold it to you (holdback, bonuses, reimbursements, etc), you can guesstimate pretty easily whether a car is hot or not (based upon inventory data, incentive programs, etc., all of which can be researched), you know that he wants your trade, and you know that he wants to turn his time investment into money.
That is a lot of information, and you can use it to save yourself cash. It's fun, saves you quite a bit of money that you can use for other things, and it doesn't take all that long.
I'm not sure that I follow, but I'll take a guess: The dealer is using a tactic in which he is attempting to get you to counter your own counter. Part of this comes from the dealer playing with your expectations. Here's a possible scenario, let me know if this sounds familiar:
Bob -- "I'll pay $20,300 for the Honda Ricecooker GT."
Dealer -- (shaking his head) "That's all you want to pay?"
Bob -- "That's my offer, take it or leave it."
Dealer -- "I've got people willing to pay me a lot more than that."
Bob -- "But that's my offer, I can't pay you more than that."
Dealer -- "This price isn't going to work. I've got to make a living, you know..."
.....etc., etc., etc.
If that's what you're experiencing, I'd tell you that this comes in part from the fact that you are the first party to name the first number. The dealer is playing a classic negotation gambit -- instead of responding to your number with another number, he simply talks around it, without ever overtly accepting or rejecting your number, because he wants you to counter yourself. His goal is to move you further up the ladder toward his position before he offers a counteroffer of his own.
I would suggest that you learn from the dealer, and use similar tactics for yourself. Don't always be tempted to respond to offers and counteroffers simply by either walking out or else by naming a different number. Pull the dealer in your direction, rather than have him do it to you.
After the dealer gives a price, do you ever make a counter-offer?
There, that only needs a simple Yes or No.
The dealer wouldn't get bonus money from your purchase.... they would get it from your 100% CSI score.
BTW, you didn't quote your source for the BMW information.
And BTW, you never answered Terry's questions about what you do for a living.
What I was trying to say was "keep increasing" -- by how much?
As in my previous example, if you start at invoice ($20000) on a Honda Accord and they say no, you might offer $20100, then $20200, then $20300.... They'll probably accept soon-after.
But on a BMW 750Li, for example, would you use that same increment? Assume an invoice price of $80000. Do you counter with $80100, then $80200, then $80300..... I'd imagine you'd be there all day on a car like that using $100 intervals!!!
My point is that you need to know what kind of intervals you should increase by...
Feel free to research the BMW CSI-related payments for yourself, if you like. Unfortunately, the technology doesn't allow me to link to books, and Edmunds doesn't allow us to link to other forums where this matter is discussed, but if you're resourceful, you'll figure it out.
As for my profession, it really doesn't matter. Are the invoice prices, holdbacks, and floorplans affected by what I do for a living? At least I'm not a dealer trolling the site to build my book of business.