There is no way to prove right or wrong, better or worse.
There is actually a signficant body of evidence to support what I've telling you, from academic research to the methods of professional negotiators, which are all markedly similar to what both Snakeweasel and I have been telling you.
There isn't necessarily one specific perfect method of negotiation -- individual styles can certainly vary, and should be adapted to your personality -- but there are definitely some actions that consistently don't work and should be avoided. And using take-it-or-leave-it as your opening gambit can certainly give you a mediocre result, but it is highly unlikely to get you a great one.
I would take that bet. But, like I said, we can't compare, unfortunately.
Might as well just give me your money right now.
So I'm not stranger to the time involved, and I know how much time I save these days.
If done right negotiation shouldn't take to long. I have always said you should be able to judge how things are going to go in the first 15 minutes. If you are haggling for an hour over $200 you're doing something wrong.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
We don't push any of that junk on our customers. Our F&I guy does mention extended warranties but normaly only goes into details on them for used Rovers. On the new side people roll out of these cars every 2-3 years so no point in an extended.
Land Rover is a distinctly low volume dealer network, with minimal direct competition and high margins, so it's probably different for you.
From the link that I posted above, the average new car deal generates almost $700 in F&I profit (not revenue, but profit.) Add that to several hundred dollars in holdback and whatever amount that the customer paid above invoice, and you end up with F&I being a significant component of a dealer's return on his investment.
And of course, many car buyers have experienced the F&I guy's effort to extract additional concessions and obtain last-minute price increases. The whole process might be lower key when buying a more costly import, but that doesn't mean that choosing some of the other cars on the market is "wrong."
The problem with that is how do you adjust for geographical differences? Socal may or may not get a better price than bobst simply because of location.
Secondly how do you verify the quote? Most dealers only give out verbal quotes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Geography issue: As each participant holds themselves out as an advanced negotiator they will have to over come this obstacle. Whether it be by better negotiation tactics or negotiating in another region: ie I will be in town visiting family, would like to buy vehicle and drive it home *brilliant*
Verify quote: We will pick someone to be the contests judge. Each contestant will have to email/fax quote to the judge for review.
socala, have enjoyed your "many" posts on time pressure in negotiations, as well as holdback. Since part of this discussion is titled, "Sucess Stories" ...would be interested in reading a personal account of one of your more interesting vehicle purchases, which incorporate some of the negotiating methods/theory you have written about.
To be honest with you, I've been trying to avoid that, in part because I don't wish to give you the impression that there is one ideal way to do it. There are definitely methods that can work and others that will likely backfire, but people need to adapt the methods that do work to their personalities, style and appearance. Things that work very well for me might be hard for you to pull off, and vice versa. (People who believe that the sales team doesn't size up customers and make assumptions about them that impact the sales process are mistaken.)
Among other things, I would suggest that you step back, objectively assess yourself, and try to turn one of your conspicuous disadvantages into an advantage. It is human nature to try to size you up and use this perceived disadvantage against you, so if you have ways to play that up and turn that on your opponent, particularly toward the end of the negotiation process, then you will have leverage to use to secure a quick close.
Actually, I think that it would be fun. But you couldn't do it without actually purchasing the car, you don't really know what the price will be until you've signed the deal.
My goodness socala, what are you hiding from? *rattle*
You won't let on what you do for a living and now you won't share one of your negotiation stories.
This is "edmunds" and yes, I agree we all should be careful on what information we disseminate over the internet.
I participate in other forums were masking your identity is a MUST *sigh* and I can vaguely see why you will not answer the career question but why you will not share a success story is beyond my comprehension *groan*
I've tried the negotiation method, back in the old days before all this wonderful information was so easily accessible. So I'm not stranger to the time involved, and I know how much time I save these days.
Just because you commit a lot of time negotiating doesn't mean you've been doing well at it. While it's very hard to cut a great deal in five minutes, spending five hours doing it does not mean that you are doing well, and in the case of buying a car, may very well be overkill.
It seems that these days, you attempt to control the dealer, because in the past, they have controlled you. I'd suggest a different method, in which you understand these control-based systems, and turn their predictable methods to your advantage. But that involves timing when you play your cards and adapting to the dealer's specific methods, rather than trying to go to war with them or slamming up barriers to communication.
Having negotiating skills isnt a bad thing. Like everything in life there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. I never buy tickets before any venues because I get them from brokers and scalpers because I want the best seats at a "fair" price. The lowest price isnt always what negotiating is about.
The most important lesson about negotiating anything is to go into it with a friendly, nonagressive attitude and "listen" to the options given to you and go from there.
I suggest consumers not get too caught up on every dollar but to look at the big picture of the product they want and as soon as the value is there for you to go ahead and pull the trigger and buy it!
I just bought some Wiggles tickets for my wife, 2 1/2 year old son and myself....the price I paid was stupid...but we sat in the HOT POTATO section....that was what I wanted and that is what I got!!
I just bought some Wiggles tickets for my wife, 2 1/2 year old son and myself....the price I paid was stupid...
I hate to break this to you but paying any price for those tickets is stupid. I mean come on now its Wiggles, I would rather have root canal work done at the circus sideshow.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Golic, I've told you -- I don't wish to get people to falsely believe that there is a single connect-the-dots method that everyone can or should follow.
I find that when people try to find shortcuts to success, then they will probably fail, then blame the method rather than their poor execution of the method. I would hope that people would take these posts as a motivator to learn about negotiation from a good source, and adopt these techniques to their style. These are not just helpful for buying a car, but will also help for other purchases and in everyday life.
Here are some basics that have always worked for me:
-Indulge the dealership's desire to create a "relationship" with you, rather than fighting it. Since the ability to form a relationship with you is taken as a positive cue that causes the dealer to invest time and commitment, give it to them. (After all, that’s what they’re trying to do with you.) Used properly, that "relationship" will not only feed you more information that can be used to your advantage, but will also make your low price deal a little easier to swallow. You don't need a situation in which a perfectly good deal gets killed simply because the other guy hates your guts and ego overrules logic.
-Don't make the first offer, and don't always counter a number with a number. If you know how to play it and read some of the links and sources referenced above, you will learn to use the other party's momentum to push offers downward, rather than naming the numbers that create the floor and push prices upward.
- Plan your counters, but include flexibility in your plan. You want to have counteroffers in your back pocket, but consider them to be guidelines and maximums, not as price increases that you are obliged to contribute. And be sure to use methods that allow you to bracket your counters appropriately.
-Use silence to your advantage. Most Americans hate silence; in our culture, we are uncomfortable with the gap and are inclined to fill it. But there are times when silence can be used to your advantage, particularly if you let the other guy fill that uncomfortable gap with an additional concession.
-Focus on your opponent's motivations, rather than your fears. If you fixate on protecting your downside, you're more likely to screw up because you are overly fearful and self-conscious, while ignoring the other party’s own desire to fulfill his own needs. The dealership balances the desire to maximize price with other goals (moving inventory to hit numbers, collecting holdback and incentives, paying off “floorplan” charges, creating a relationship for the service department, moving that slow mover off the lot, the prospect of selling you financing and options, getting your trade, etc.), and you can use those objectives to your advantage.
-Use the “nibble”, and plan accordingly. This link explains it, use it to get those last-minute freebees and concessions that you’re shooting for: "Nibble for More at the End"
As a father, I know the joy and feeling of gratification of taking $200 and investing it into my child's education fund and ohhh the discussion we can have on compound interest.
But as we learned from mastercard *sigh* there are things that money can't buy and that is the experiences we have with our children, and at a time in thier life that they still believe in fantasy and make believe nothing touches me as a parent more to see my child's facial expressions during that experienced in some over priced $5 bag of popcorn kid show, even the wiggles.
I also believe its also who you know also. I think everyone should have a friend in Real Estate, Jewelery, and the Auto industry. If socala, and everyone else in these forums have friends in the industry, I bet your negotiation tatics would be a little different, and perhaps see things in a different light.
I have become friends with a lot of people who I sold cars to, and I help them buy cars not just sell them what I sell.
I agree Sbell4, Its all in what you want. This contest sounds good in theory, but really all that is going to be looked at is the price. Never mind the service everyone gets, the facility ect.....And nothing would be resolved. Anyone can mooch a deal. But can you mooch a deal, and walk in the dealership and people want to help you out after the sale?
When I sold Infiniti's this sort of thing would drive me up the wall. The dealership I worked for was so honest it hurt. No $250 wheel locks, $200 floor mats, $200 window etching, totally straight trade offers, no hiking of the interest rate, etc. So what would happen? People would trot off down the road to "Shady Infiniti R Us", pay for all the crap and then tell us "Hey, these guys sold us the car for $200 less than your best offer". I actually got a look at the paperwork of one customer (who, of course, brought the car to our place for service) and yes, his "headline" price was about $250 less than my best offer to him but they stuck him with a 7.5% interest rate (his FICO was about 730) and $2000 worth of mats, locks, etching, mop-and-glo and cheapo alarm. This guy was still insistant that he got a better deal than we would have given him, even while he was looking at the wheel locks in our display cabinet with a $24.99 price sticker on them!
"have become friends with a lot of people who I sold cars to, and I help them buy cars not just sell them what I sell."
Good point. I've been out of the business for almost 2 years but I still get people who call me to ask my opinion about what cars they should buy and looking for recommendations. Also, a realtor I sold an FX45 to sold our house in So. Cal. for only 2% commission!
There ain't enough room on this forum for two weasels.
Anyway joking aside, perception creates its own reality. This person is most likely looking at the sales price only, not realizing that you wouldn't have kicked up the other prices. People tend to get focused on one or two things and don't see the big picture. That can be deadly in shopping such a high ticket item as a car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My philosophy is that if you are looking for the "best price" never do business with Friends. It can be akward to negotiate and may leave people a little miffed.
Use your friend or extended family member for advice, but my guess is you will do better off negotiating with someone you are not personally invested with. I think your friendship forces you to compromise your ability to negotiate and even make you more accepting.
Of course, that is you are out for best price. My brother in law owns a repair shop. I take cars there since I know he will tell me what I need and don't need. More of a trust issue than a price issue. I would rather give him the money than a dealer.
My philosophy is that if you are looking for the "best price" never do business with Friends. It can be akward to negotiate and may leave people a little miffed.
This is precisely why I would suggest that most people treat your typical car purchase as a one-off transaction, and not bother with a win-win. Going for the true win-win is useful when you have a good reason to have an ongoing relationship, in which case higher deal volumes, the ability to close quickly and with certainty, etc., can offset the higher margins associated with paying a higher price. It also helps when your trust and reputation are important to the success of being able to transact business in the future.
So for the retail customer, the pursuit of the win-win doesn't provide any added benefit. The typical consumer purchases cars so infrequently, and the stability of the sales force is typically so low, that the "relationship" simply raises the price for your deal, with no added benefit. If you were absolutely intent on buying a new Land Rover every year in an area where there is one dealership, if you were a fleet buyer or if you needed a unique connection to score hot exotics, etc., things might be different, but these sorts of situations apply to virtually no one who reads this forum.
This is precisely why I would suggest that most people treat your typical car purchase as a one-off transaction, and not bother with a win-win.
I wouldn't recommend this approach. While you really shouldn't be buddy buddy with the salesman you have to realize that any deal that is win-lose will never go through unless it is forced through legal means or threats. As you will never voluntarily enter into an agreement in which you lose neither will the dealer.
Again this is not saying become friends with the salesman or concern yourself with what the dealership will get out of it. Just to keep in mind that if the dealer doesn't think he is getting anything out of it they wont make the deal.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I would disagree as well. I would try and not burn any bridges on the way out and at least make both sides feel they did well.
Only becuase in the next 1-2 days you MAY need a favor. IE, when I took delivery of my car I left my tollway pod in the car. I called the salesman the next day and he went and "found" it along with another very valuable item I had left in the car.
Now, had we had a horrible negotiation or I really burned the bridge, my guess when I called the next day he could have easily said..sorry the porters cleaned out the car, nothing was there *shrugs*
I am not saving you should leave money on the table, but think it is important not to turn this into a victory and burning a bridge on the way out.
I'm not suggesting a bridge burning, either. As I've mentioned repeatedly, there's really no need for that, and you should always give the other party a chance to save face.
What I'm saying is that I am not willing to pay any financial premium in exchange for the prospect of a relationship, as I might willingly do in the case of a true win-win, ongoing relationship. That does not require being rude or rubbing your deal in the other guy's face, and in fact, I would strongly discourage people from thinking that this would be necessary. You can be polite and friendly enough without increasing the purchase price.
I admire everyones efforts and styles of negotiation and knowlege on the subject of car buying. But throughout this thread, nobody here has asked us dealers, how to get the best deal?
Somepeople make here make assumptions, talk about our supposed tatics, but really would the dealers be the best resource for finding out how to get a great deal? Like I said before I have SOLD about 2000 cars in my career? How many cars have you bought?
Some people make here make assumptions, talk about our supposed tatics, but really would the dealers be the best resource for finding out how to get a great deal?
I welcome everybody's input, but I wouldn't assume that dealers are going to be the best or the only resource for this. You're not going to tell us everything you know (and sorry, but some of the dealers on this thread offer a mix of good and misleading information), and you spend too much time on your side of the table to know how it looks from mine, so you probably can't see your weaknesses as well as we can.
I see that the ideas of both the customers and the dealers need to be considered, and people need to filter through all of them to get to the truth. Personally, I see a lot of the dealer's info being most helpful when read between the lines, rather than taken literally.
Socala, you couldn't be further from the truth on this.
I always take the "what we paid" board with a grain of salt. I think some members have that I need to embelish atitude and make their deal sound better.
Or sure they have the best price on thier car, but you don't see if their trade was undervalued or the paid an extra half point in financing.
Each time I have bought a car there has been an edmunds poster who sold the car I was looking for and gave me advice and offered their opinion on what they believed the true "bottom" was.
I could then compare Edmunds Invoice info, what posters paid in my area and the advice from the salesman to help me determine "my" price.
It has been my experience that the people who post on forums like this are doing this because they like to help people. I dont look at the posters as us versus the salesman. I think we are all here to offer advice. Just like you are here to help people get the best price.
But 90% of the time I have asked a car salesman to help me in email, they have bent over backwards to give me advice even though I am not within 1000 miles from them and they were not going to profit.
So, with all due respect, I think you are unfairly undercutting the salesman contributions to this forum.
And on that note, BigD tell us how to get a smokin deal on an Audi.
Friends or no friends you have to know what you are talking about before taking on any large purchase. Do your homework and set your price to make sure the dealer will make some money because it is in your best interest for them to make some money. If you think you can beat them you are wrong. They do this everyday all day long and are professionals.
If you do your research and know what you are talking about then both you and the dealer should be happy. I have purchased 7 cars and trucks since 2003 from the same dealer and just purchased one about 2 weeks ago and deal with the same person. If I don't ask they are not going to offer it. The first price they always give me is about $1200 over what I end up paying for the car. We always come to an agreement but it may take a couple of days. That's fine with me because I know they are trying to make money like any other business. If they have to sell a car to me lower than they want to and they treat me right they will get the reward. I use this same dealership for service and they know me from the parts department to service and sales departments. It's a total package and they know it and treat me will so I don't go to another dealership.
Then I think you are confusing relationship building with win-win, they are two different things.
Any agreement agreed to by two parties is a win-win, if it wasn't it wouldn't happen.
I think that we actually agree, but we are using different terminology to express the same ideas.
In my book, a "win-win" involves building of mutual trust and an overt goal to satisfy mutual objectives, with a goal to make everyone so happy that they wish to continue doing business together in subsequent transactions. With a car purchase, I just want a good deal for myself, and want it to be just good enough for the other party to accept it, even if they aren't entirely thrilled with it.
as a salesperson....and rememeber this is just my opinion....what I want from a buyer is for them to do what they say they are going to do.
It doesnt matter to me if you are shopping 68 other dealers and 23 different manufactures..just be honest and tell me what you are wanting to accomplish so I can help you make a well informed decision and whatever happens will just have to happen. (but dont take that to mean that there wouldnt be any negotions involved if you do not like the first proposal)
Bobst and I would get along just fine....the deal would be done in 30 seconds flat. Either he would be in a new car or he wouldnt. I respect the Bobst method, just dont back up when I tell you that you just bought a car.
Do your homework and set your price to make sure the dealer will make some money because it is in your best interest for them to make some money.
Wrong mindset to have, its not your job to make sure the dealership makes money. Its not even in your best interest if they do. Not to mention you have no ideal how your purchase will effect their bottom line.
I use this same dealership for service and they know me from the parts department to service and sales departments.
To be honest since I bought my daily drive 6 years ago (a Hyundai Elantra) I have been back to the dealer twice. Once 6 years ago for a free oil change and once about a month ago to replace the exhaust manifold under warranty (at 130K miles). In my entire life I have only used dealer service three times, once for that oil change and twice for warranty work. So it doesn't help me to have a good relationship with any dealer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Email me and I will let you know what is a average deal, a steal on each car.....the pricing is regional because we are doing alot of out of state deals right now There are good 36 month leases on A4s right now, but if you are in a state where you can do balloon purchases, that is even better.
What would the dealers have to hide? Y'all arent my customers so what would we have to lose. Any information I share here before I post I double check with a higher authority or someone who specializes in what I am talking about. Heck I even asked terry to give me a REal world trade in on my truck.
I can tell HOW not to have a good experience buying a car.
1. Patronize the salesperson.
2. Make rediculous offers, even as an opening bid. (Its a waste of time.)
3. Mention CSI money during negotiations.
4. Bring the trade in the mix later on in the deal. Especially when you are upside down, it does not help your chances of getting out in a timely fashion.
I can tell HOW not to have a good experience buying a car.
1. Patronize the salesperson.
2. Make rediculous offers, even as an opening bid. (Its a waste of time.)
3. Mention CSI money during negotiations.
4. Bring the trade in the mix later on in the deal. Especially when you are upside down, it does not help your chances of getting out in a timely fashion.
I actually agree with that almost 100%. Patronizing behavior isn't necessary (although complete candor isn't probably ideal, either), offers shouldn't be completely absurd (but don't overbid, either), mentioning holdback/CSI/etc. isn't generally a good idea (good info to know, just keep it to yourself unless the dealer starts crying poverty), and use the trade-in from the onset as a way to tempt to dealer (just don't negotiate it prior to sorting out the purchase price of the new car, and don't hesitate to pull it off the table entirely if the trade-in portion of the negotiations don't lead you to a good value.)
Please do not tell us you are shopping everyone else for the best deal, even if you are. Give us an opportunity to work for you.
Be honest up front about credit situation, trade situation, down payment situation. Do not mention these things later, especially if we are getting you pre approved because we will submit to the lender as having no trade.
THere are more but my brain is fried today, busy.....
Late to post this - can't keep up with you guys today. Just to let you know, I feel your pain on the Wiggles tickets - taking my 3 year old, got 4th row. They tacked on a $10 per ticket service fee. Ouch!
To get back on topic, paid with my Subaru Mastercard so at least I'll get 3% back for Subaru bucks!
If you said "Iam here to buy a car, I will sign and drive now at $25k OTD." If it was possible I would do it right then and there, but if it was not I would give you a no BS best price and at that point it would be up to you. If someone came in later on same car and we haggled, it would end at the same no BS price I gave You as you were leaving.
On an A4 I have about 1500 wiggle room so there is not much to haggle on.
USED car scenario:
Same as new car, but if another customer comes in 45 days later and that car is still here, his price might be different because we have to get rid of it. But it is not in your best intrest to wait a month on a used car because our usual turnaround is 30 days with very few exceptions.
(In new car) Are you saying your first offer is your final offer? Kind of hard to believe, based on experience of many people... You might be different, of course, but why if "industry standard" is else. To your credit, we are talking about customer making an offer first (rare) and hitting below your internally calculated number.
Don't tell me your first offer, when the customer does not speak the number is final, too. Is it?
" Last time I walked out on a deal was when the F&I guy push an abitration agreement on me. Basically giving up my right to sue and taking anything to abitration. People never agree to this.
The guy actually told me it was the law that they couldn't sell me the car without me agreeing to arbitration. "
The arb. agreement is standard here in Orlando. No dealer will sell you a vehicle without it being signed. When I first ran in to them, I asked here about them, and drift_racer (remember him?), said they really aren't enforceable, legally speaking but they do cut down on the frivolous (sp?) lawsuits.
Okay they way my deals are go a little like this. (Iam leaving out alot) New car: Me: MSRP of this car is 34,500.00 and you are looking to do the 60 month program correct?
Customer: Yes but what kind of deal can you give me?
Me: We have X amount of profit margin in this car, give me an idea about what price range you want to be at?
Customer: I want to be at 32,000.
Me: That is below our cost but lets see how close we can get to that.
Socal claims he can get a sales person to accept an offer that would be rejected by my take-it-or-leave-it approach.
From what you say, I guess you are not one of the sales people who would do that.
If you reject my $25K OTD offer, then it means that no one else could have bought the car for that price at that time on that day, no matter how long they negotiated with you.
Of course, other sales people might do it the way Socal suggests.
Me: That is below our cost but lets see how close we can get to that.
Customer: (smug grin) Well my research shows that you have another $1200 holdback on this model and you may also get dealer cash this late in the year. Oh, and I won't pay for transportation either.
Bob, she already conceded that she left money on the table with her couple from out of town, because she was trying to get out of the dealership. I'm sure that was just one example when constraints and other motivations, some not always known to the buyer, helped to move a deal to completion. This is normal in business, and car sales are no exception.
There are many situations in which people accept less (or on the other side of the deal, pay more) than they had originally planned. Again, it isn't just about price -- the desire to recoup a time investment, eliminating doubt that an expedient close is at hand, and other factors can help a deal to get done at a price not in the optimal range. Some deals are simply too far out of the ballpark to get closed under any circumstances, but the range of expectations can and does shift as time passes and each party gathers more information.
To be honest with you, I've been trying to avoid that,in part because I don't want to give the impression that there is only one ideal way to do it.
Thanks for your honesty and concern, but why do you think I/we would be so impressionable as to accept only one way to negotiate a purchase? It would have been nice to have had a real life example to help understand the points you were trying to make...curiosity as well. But, no big deal.
Since we lacking a "story" here, I'll offer mine. Would like to hear yours as well bobst, if you don't mind. Critiques welcome.
July, 2004...after several months of research on minivans and test drives of the Sienna, Odyssey and Nissan Quest, the wife and I decided to take a look at the Mazda MPV. I wouldn't say we went to buy, but I took along all of my research material(invoice prices) just in case. We spent about an hour with the salesperson talking about the van as well as taking it on about a 20 minute test drive.
My wife decided she liked the vehilce. The van had 13 miles, a sticker price of $26,000. It had a $3,000 rebate that had just expired. We had all of our financing preapproved, and were looking to put down anywhere between 10-14k. The salesmanager sees us out talking to our salesperson, so he comes out and says hello. I'm not buying without the rebate. So, the first thing I throw out is if the rebate is still available. I'll never forget the look on the salesmanagers face...confused/unsure (I'm thinking he's thinking about which way to go with his answer) He seems to reluctantly say it is. Great! They invite us in to talk over "the numbers". I have already looked at my invoice numbers for the van and all options. So, I am looking to start out at around $400 under invoice and will pay up to $200 over invoice. That is my "range".
I can't really recall who threw out the first number, but I think I did. The saleslady is a green pea, and seems kind of lost. So, the sales manager comes over. Shows me their invoice number which is a lot higher than mine. He doesn't question my honesty or resources, but acts confused...saying they would be losing money. He states he has taken the 3k rebate off. But, I tell him he has only taken the 3k off of sticker, and that I would prefer he take it off to what price I had given. He sits back in his chair and changes tactics. He now wants to get friendly and starts talking to the wife and I about our career...kids etc. I had read previously that this was a trick dealerships us to get more money out of a consumer. So, I gave short, though polite, replies to his inquiries. He says lets go back out and look at the van. We do so. The salesmanager talks of all the saftey features etc. But, I guess we were still about $1,500 apart. Time put in thus far...about 2 hours. It's getting dark...we mention our baby sitter.oops. He doesn't seem to want to budge. So, I suggest I go home and I'll look back over my numbers...come back tomorrow if I were in error.( I meant this). Salesmanager wants no part of that. Invites us back in saying "we can work this out". We go in. He comes down about $800. I say no. He goes into how little profit he would be making on the deal. I stand up and again tell him that we were going to go ahead and go...and that I would check my numbers. He sighs...leans back in his chair and says "nintey percent of the people that say they will come back never do...we can work this out...let me go check my numbers again". He comes back and is $300 over invoice...I counter with $200 over. I'll never forget the look in his face...beaten. He looks a bit flustered and upset...but says okay...says something about the salesperson not getting a commission. This was an out the door price by the way. Anyhow, it's like an hour or two after closing. The F&I guy has already gone home. So, unbeknownst to me...time pressure seems to have been an allie for me that night.
To me it was an enjoyable experience.(I loved the negotiation process with big(?) money at stake.) The salesmanager wrapped up the paperwork, and we were out in our new zoom zoom of a Mazda MPV. Go back home and look at my numbers...oops...I did overestimate invoice by about $200. No wonder that salesmanager looked so green.
I have really no strategy at all. I do my research, and go in with the attitude that I want a good deal, I want the dealer to sell me a car, and I want the dealer and sales person to make some money on the deal. That's how business works. Anyone who thinks they can "outsmart" a dealer or sales person is just fooling themselves. If they don't make a profit, you're not buying a car from them - period.
My last 5 car purchases during the past 10 years all have several things in common;
I go by myself to conduct test drives, always during the week. This way I'm always dressed in my normal professional attire. My rapport with sales persons tend to be more low key and professional, which suits my style. During this stage, I'm still trying to decide if I like the car among the few I've narrowed the field down to. I don't need other people to "help" me or distract me - I'll be driving the car, not my friends or significant other. I don't start negotiating, but do mention if I'm trading or not, but again no discussion of numbers. The time this takes is however long the test drive is plus a bit of time gathering brochures or other information the salesperson provides. I'm always courteous and respectful as long as the salesperson is likewise.
I finally narrow down to 2 specific cars, go back for a second test drive, and start preliminary discussions for pricing and trade values. After a brief discussion on the "numbers", I'll state I will make a decision by this Friday, or whatever day I choose in the very near future, but again, always a week day and not the weekend. Surprisingly, I am never pressured to make a "drive-off" decision that day. I usually follow-up with phone calls on any questions I have with my sales person.
I make a final decision on the day I said I would, and then go to my chosen dealer. I always call the sales person from whom I'm not buying the car from to let him/her know of my decision. I also call ahead to make sure my sales person at my chosen dealership is available before I arrive. From the moment I arrive to when I leave, it usually takes about 2 hours. This includes about 1/2 hour discussion to arrive at final numbers, another 1/2 to hour for the paperwork in the finance office to be prepped, then another 1/2 to 45 minutes signing doc's and waiting for the car as it's prepped for delivery.
It may sound like a long and drawn out process, but it's actually very simple and doesn't consume or waste a lot of mine or anyone else's time. I've always gotten very good deals, some of them very exceptional good deals. :shades:
Bobst, I think I use a modified version of your approach. I do my research, test drive the car, determine the price I will pay and hit the phones/internet until I find someone who will agree to it.
Being in a major metropolitan area, there is no shortage of dealers to talk to.
I "think" the point socal is making in the difference between your two approaches is that YOUR take it or leave it offer may not be the "bottom"
But I would agree in that it is the price you are happy with so who cares.
Once again, I "think" socal is saying that there is a chance that "your" price may not be a few hundred dollars from the bottom but perhaps $500 - $1,000. I think "most" of us would forgo $100 -$300 to save a few hours. But it would be worth our while for an extra $500 - $1,000.
I think any approach is as good as our research. With ALL things being equal, my guess is if you and socal both had the "true bottom" he would have a slightly better chance of making the deal any day of the month.
I think your approach work best at end of month or when some other "volume" incentive is in place, when the dealer is motivated to push cars off the curb. Perhaps the dealer had a great February and on March 5th they are just not motivated to do a "volume" deal.
Comments
There is actually a signficant body of evidence to support what I've telling you, from academic research to the methods of professional negotiators, which are all markedly similar to what both Snakeweasel and I have been telling you.
There isn't necessarily one specific perfect method of negotiation -- individual styles can certainly vary, and should be adapted to your personality -- but there are definitely some actions that consistently don't work and should be avoided. And using take-it-or-leave-it as your opening gambit can certainly give you a mediocre result, but it is highly unlikely to get you a great one.
We learned in 1995 that it is very frustrating trying to get a sales person to give us a price.
Getting a "verifiable quote" is too tough for me to attempt.
Might as well just give me your money right now.
So I'm not stranger to the time involved, and I know how much time I save these days.
If done right negotiation shouldn't take to long. I have always said you should be able to judge how things are going to go in the first 15 minutes. If you are haggling for an hour over $200 you're doing something wrong.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Land Rover is a distinctly low volume dealer network, with minimal direct competition and high margins, so it's probably different for you.
From the link that I posted above, the average new car deal generates almost $700 in F&I profit (not revenue, but profit.) Add that to several hundred dollars in holdback and whatever amount that the customer paid above invoice, and you end up with F&I being a significant component of a dealer's return on his investment.
And of course, many car buyers have experienced the F&I guy's effort to extract additional concessions and obtain last-minute price increases. The whole process might be lower key when buying a more costly import, but that doesn't mean that choosing some of the other cars on the market is "wrong."
Secondly how do you verify the quote? Most dealers only give out verbal quotes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Verify quote: We will pick someone to be the contests judge. Each contestant will have to email/fax quote to the judge for review.
To be honest with you, I've been trying to avoid that, in part because I don't wish to give you the impression that there is one ideal way to do it. There are definitely methods that can work and others that will likely backfire, but people need to adapt the methods that do work to their personalities, style and appearance. Things that work very well for me might be hard for you to pull off, and vice versa. (People who believe that the sales team doesn't size up customers and make assumptions about them that impact the sales process are mistaken.)
Among other things, I would suggest that you step back, objectively assess yourself, and try to turn one of your conspicuous disadvantages into an advantage. It is human nature to try to size you up and use this perceived disadvantage against you, so if you have ways to play that up and turn that on your opponent, particularly toward the end of the negotiation process, then you will have leverage to use to secure a quick close.
You won't let on what you do for a living and now you won't share one of your negotiation stories.
This is "edmunds" and yes, I agree we all should be careful on what information we disseminate over the internet.
I participate in other forums were masking your identity is a MUST *sigh* and I can vaguely see why you will not answer the career question but why you will not share a success story is beyond my comprehension *groan*
I guess I am ranty today as well *grumble*
Just because you commit a lot of time negotiating doesn't mean you've been doing well at it. While it's very hard to cut a great deal in five minutes, spending five hours doing it does not mean that you are doing well, and in the case of buying a car, may very well be overkill.
It seems that these days, you attempt to control the dealer, because in the past, they have controlled you. I'd suggest a different method, in which you understand these control-based systems, and turn their predictable methods to your advantage. But that involves timing when you play your cards and adapting to the dealer's specific methods, rather than trying to go to war with them or slamming up barriers to communication.
The most important lesson about negotiating anything is to go into it with a friendly, nonagressive attitude and "listen" to the options given to you and go from there.
I suggest consumers not get too caught up on every dollar but to look at the big picture of the product they want and as soon as the value is there for you to go ahead and pull the trigger and buy it!
I just bought some Wiggles tickets for my wife, 2 1/2 year old son and myself....the price I paid was stupid...but we sat in the HOT POTATO section....that was what I wanted and that is what I got!!
I hate to break this to you but paying any price for those tickets is stupid. I mean come on now its Wiggles, I would rather have root canal work done at the circus sideshow.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I find that when people try to find shortcuts to success, then they will probably fail, then blame the method rather than their poor execution of the method. I would hope that people would take these posts as a motivator to learn about negotiation from a good source, and adopt these techniques to their style. These are not just helpful for buying a car, but will also help for other purchases and in everyday life.
Here are some basics that have always worked for me:
-Indulge the dealership's desire to create a "relationship" with you, rather than fighting it. Since the ability to form a relationship with you is taken as a positive cue that causes the dealer to invest time and commitment, give it to them. (After all, that’s what they’re trying to do with you.) Used properly, that "relationship" will not only feed you more information that can be used to your advantage, but will also make your low price deal a little easier to swallow. You don't need a situation in which a perfectly good deal gets killed simply because the other guy hates your guts and ego overrules logic.
-Don't make the first offer, and don't always counter a number with a number. If you know how to play it and read some of the links and sources referenced above, you will learn to use the other party's momentum to push offers downward, rather than naming the numbers that create the floor and push prices upward.
- Plan your counters, but include flexibility in your plan. You want to have counteroffers in your back pocket, but consider them to be guidelines and maximums, not as price increases that you are obliged to contribute. And be sure to use methods that allow you to bracket your counters appropriately.
-Use silence to your advantage. Most Americans hate silence; in our culture, we are uncomfortable with the gap and are inclined to fill it. But there are times when silence can be used to your advantage, particularly if you let the other guy fill that uncomfortable gap with an additional concession.
-Focus on your opponent's motivations, rather than your fears. If you fixate on protecting your downside, you're more likely to screw up because you are overly fearful and self-conscious, while ignoring the other party’s own desire to fulfill his own needs. The dealership balances the desire to maximize price with other goals (moving inventory to hit numbers, collecting holdback and incentives, paying off “floorplan” charges, creating a relationship for the service department, moving that slow mover off the lot, the prospect of selling you financing and options, getting your trade, etc.), and you can use those objectives to your advantage.
-Use the “nibble”, and plan accordingly. This link explains it, use it to get those last-minute freebees and concessions that you’re shooting for: "Nibble for More at the End"
As a father, I know the joy and feeling of gratification of taking $200 and investing it into my child's education fund and ohhh the discussion we can have on compound interest.
But as we learned from mastercard *sigh* there are things that money can't buy and that is the experiences we have with our children, and at a time in thier life that they still believe in fantasy and make believe nothing touches me as a parent more to see my child's facial expressions during that experienced in some over priced $5 bag of popcorn kid show, even the wiggles.
YMMV. Enjoy the show sbel
I have become friends with a lot of people who I sold cars to, and I help them buy cars not just sell them what I sell.
I agree Sbell4, Its all in what you want. This contest sounds good in theory, but really all that is going to be looked at is the price. Never mind the service everyone gets, the facility ect.....And nothing would be resolved. Anyone can mooch a deal. But can you mooch a deal, and walk in the dealership and people want to help you out after the sale?
Good point. I've been out of the business for almost 2 years but I still get people who call me to ask my opinion about what cars they should buy and looking for recommendations. Also, a realtor I sold an FX45 to sold our house in So. Cal. for only 2% commission!
Anyway joking aside, perception creates its own reality. This person is most likely looking at the sales price only, not realizing that you wouldn't have kicked up the other prices. People tend to get focused on one or two things and don't see the big picture. That can be deadly in shopping such a high ticket item as a car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Use your friend or extended family member for advice, but my guess is you will do better off negotiating with someone you are not personally invested with. I think your friendship forces you to compromise your ability to negotiate and even make you more accepting.
Of course, that is you are out for best price. My brother in law owns a repair shop. I take cars there since I know he will tell me what I need and don't need. More of a trust issue than a price issue. I would rather give him the money than a dealer.
This is precisely why I would suggest that most people treat your typical car purchase as a one-off transaction, and not bother with a win-win. Going for the true win-win is useful when you have a good reason to have an ongoing relationship, in which case higher deal volumes, the ability to close quickly and with certainty, etc., can offset the higher margins associated with paying a higher price. It also helps when your trust and reputation are important to the success of being able to transact business in the future.
So for the retail customer, the pursuit of the win-win doesn't provide any added benefit. The typical consumer purchases cars so infrequently, and the stability of the sales force is typically so low, that the "relationship" simply raises the price for your deal, with no added benefit. If you were absolutely intent on buying a new Land Rover every year in an area where there is one dealership, if you were a fleet buyer or if you needed a unique connection to score hot exotics, etc., things might be different, but these sorts of situations apply to virtually no one who reads this forum.
I wouldn't recommend this approach. While you really shouldn't be buddy buddy with the salesman you have to realize that any deal that is win-lose will never go through unless it is forced through legal means or threats. As you will never voluntarily enter into an agreement in which you lose neither will the dealer.
Again this is not saying become friends with the salesman or concern yourself with what the dealership will get out of it. Just to keep in mind that if the dealer doesn't think he is getting anything out of it they wont make the deal.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Only becuase in the next 1-2 days you MAY need a favor. IE, when I took delivery of my car I left my tollway pod in the car. I called the salesman the next day and he went and "found" it along with another very valuable item I had left in the car.
Now, had we had a horrible negotiation or I really burned the bridge, my guess when I called the next day he could have easily said..sorry the porters cleaned out the car, nothing was there *shrugs*
I am not saving you should leave money on the table, but think it is important not to turn this into a victory and burning a bridge on the way out.
What I'm saying is that I am not willing to pay any financial premium in exchange for the prospect of a relationship, as I might willingly do in the case of a true win-win, ongoing relationship. That does not require being rude or rubbing your deal in the other guy's face, and in fact, I would strongly discourage people from thinking that this would be necessary. You can be polite and friendly enough without increasing the purchase price.
Somepeople make here make assumptions, talk about our supposed tatics, but really would the dealers be the best resource for finding out how to get a great deal? Like I said before I have SOLD about 2000 cars in my career? How many cars have you bought?
I welcome everybody's input, but I wouldn't assume that dealers are going to be the best or the only resource for this. You're not going to tell us everything you know (and sorry, but some of the dealers on this thread offer a mix of good and misleading information), and you spend too much time on your side of the table to know how it looks from mine, so you probably can't see your weaknesses as well as we can.
I see that the ideas of both the customers and the dealers need to be considered, and people need to filter through all of them to get to the truth. Personally, I see a lot of the dealer's info being most helpful when read between the lines, rather than taken literally.
Then I think you are confusing relationship building with win-win, they are two different things.
Any agreement agreed to by two parties is a win-win, if it wasn't it wouldn't happen.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I always take the "what we paid" board with a grain of salt. I think some members have that I need to embelish atitude and make their deal sound better.
Or sure they have the best price on thier car, but you don't see if their trade was undervalued or the paid an extra half point in financing.
Each time I have bought a car there has been an edmunds poster who sold the car I was looking for and gave me advice and offered their opinion on what they believed the true "bottom" was.
I could then compare Edmunds Invoice info, what posters paid in my area and the advice from the salesman to help me determine "my" price.
It has been my experience that the people who post on forums like this are doing this because they like to help people. I dont look at the posters as us versus the salesman. I think we are all here to offer advice. Just like you are here to help people get the best price.
But 90% of the time I have asked a car salesman to help me in email, they have bent over backwards to give me advice even though I am not within 1000 miles from them and they were not going to profit.
So, with all due respect, I think you are unfairly undercutting the salesman contributions to this forum.
And on that note, BigD tell us how to get a smokin deal on an Audi.
If you do your research and know what you are talking about then both you and the dealer should be happy. I have purchased 7 cars and trucks since 2003 from the same dealer and just purchased one about 2 weeks ago and deal with the same person. If I don't ask they are not going to offer it. The first price they always give me is about $1200 over what I end up paying for the car. We always come to an agreement but it may take a couple of days. That's fine with me because I know they are trying to make money like any other business. If they have to sell a car to me lower than they want to and they treat me right they will get the reward. I use this same dealership for service and they know me from the parts department to service and sales departments. It's a total package and they know it and treat me will so I don't go to another dealership.
Any agreement agreed to by two parties is a win-win, if it wasn't it wouldn't happen.
I think that we actually agree, but we are using different terminology to express the same ideas.
In my book, a "win-win" involves building of mutual trust and an overt goal to satisfy mutual objectives, with a goal to make everyone so happy that they wish to continue doing business together in subsequent transactions. With a car purchase, I just want a good deal for myself, and want it to be just good enough for the other party to accept it, even if they aren't entirely thrilled with it.
It doesnt matter to me if you are shopping 68 other dealers and 23 different manufactures..just be honest and tell me what you are wanting to accomplish so I can help you make a well informed decision and whatever happens will just have to happen. (but dont take that to mean that there wouldnt be any negotions involved if you do not like the first proposal)
Bobst and I would get along just fine....the deal would be done in 30 seconds flat. Either he would be in a new car or he wouldnt. I respect the Bobst method, just dont back up when I tell you that you just bought a car.
Wrong mindset to have, its not your job to make sure the dealership makes money. Its not even in your best interest if they do. Not to mention you have no ideal how your purchase will effect their bottom line.
I use this same dealership for service and they know me from the parts department to service and sales departments.
To be honest since I bought my daily drive 6 years ago (a Hyundai Elantra) I have been back to the dealer twice. Once 6 years ago for a free oil change and once about a month ago to replace the exhaust manifold under warranty (at 130K miles). In my entire life I have only used dealer service three times, once for that oil change and twice for warranty work. So it doesn't help me to have a good relationship with any dealer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Can I get a better price if I negotiate with you for a considerable amount of time?
For example, suppose I come in and offer $25K OTD for a car. You turn me down, so I leave.
Could another person come in and negotiate for a couple hours and get you to accept the $25K?
1. What are things we do which will irk you and not get us the best deal.
2. What are things that IF we do/say will help us get the best deal?
Enquiring minds...
What would the dealers have to hide? Y'all arent my customers so what would we have to lose. Any information I share here before I post I double check with a higher authority or someone who specializes in what I am talking about. Heck I even asked terry to give me a REal world trade in on my truck.
I can tell HOW not to have a good experience buying a car.
1. Patronize the salesperson.
2. Make rediculous offers, even as an opening bid. (Its a waste of time.)
3. Mention CSI money during negotiations.
4. Bring the trade in the mix later on in the deal. Especially when you are upside down, it does not help your chances of getting out in a timely fashion.
1. Patronize the salesperson.
2. Make rediculous offers, even as an opening bid. (Its a waste of time.)
3. Mention CSI money during negotiations.
4. Bring the trade in the mix later on in the deal. Especially when you are upside down, it does not help your chances of getting out in a timely fashion.
I actually agree with that almost 100%. Patronizing behavior isn't necessary (although complete candor isn't probably ideal, either), offers shouldn't be completely absurd (but don't overbid, either), mentioning holdback/CSI/etc. isn't generally a good idea (good info to know, just keep it to yourself unless the dealer starts crying poverty), and use the trade-in from the onset as a way to tempt to dealer (just don't negotiate it prior to sorting out the purchase price of the new car, and don't hesitate to pull it off the table entirely if the trade-in portion of the negotiations don't lead you to a good value.)
Be honest up front about credit situation, trade situation, down payment situation. Do not mention these things later, especially if we are getting you pre approved because we will submit to the lender as having no trade.
THere are more but my brain is fried today, busy.....
Late to post this - can't keep up with you guys today. Just to let you know, I feel your pain on the Wiggles tickets - taking my 3 year old, got 4th row. They tacked on a $10 per ticket service fee. Ouch!
To get back on topic, paid with my Subaru Mastercard so at least I'll get 3% back for Subaru bucks!
New car scenario:
If you said "Iam here to buy a car, I will sign and drive now at $25k OTD." If it was possible I would do it right then and there, but if it was not I would give you a no BS best price and at that point it would be up to you. If someone came in later on same car and we haggled, it would end at the same no BS price I gave You as you were leaving.
On an A4 I have about 1500 wiggle room so there is not much to haggle on.
USED car scenario:
Same as new car, but if another customer comes in 45 days later and that car is still here, his price might be different because we have to get rid of it. But it is not in your best intrest to wait a month on a used car because our usual turnaround is 30 days with very few exceptions.
Don't tell me your first offer, when the customer does not speak the number is final, too. Is it?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The guy actually told me it was the law that they couldn't sell me the car without me agreeing to arbitration. "
The arb. agreement is standard here in Orlando. No dealer will sell you a vehicle without it being signed. When I first ran in to them, I asked here about them, and drift_racer (remember him?), said they really aren't enforceable, legally speaking but they do cut down on the frivolous (sp?) lawsuits.
(Iam leaving out alot)
New car:
Me:
MSRP of this car is 34,500.00 and you are looking to do the 60 month program correct?
Customer: Yes but what kind of deal can you give me?
Me: We have X amount of profit margin in this car, give me an idea about what price range you want to be at?
Customer: I want to be at 32,000.
Me: That is below our cost but lets see how close we can get to that.
From what you say, I guess you are not one of the sales people who would do that.
If you reject my $25K OTD offer, then it means that no one else could have bought the car for that price at that time on that day, no matter how long they negotiated with you.
Of course, other sales people might do it the way Socal suggests.
Me: That is below our cost but lets see how close we can get to that.
Customer: (smug grin) Well my research shows that you have another $1200 holdback on this model and you may also get dealer cash this late in the year. Oh, and I won't pay for transportation either.
There are many situations in which people accept less (or on the other side of the deal, pay more) than they had originally planned. Again, it isn't just about price -- the desire to recoup a time investment, eliminating doubt that an expedient close is at hand, and other factors can help a deal to get done at a price not in the optimal range. Some deals are simply too far out of the ballpark to get closed under any circumstances, but the range of expectations can and does shift as time passes and each party gathers more information.
I don't recall socal making such a statement.
The fact is a take-it-or-leave-it offer that is rejected may be so low that no salesman will accept it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thanks for your honesty and concern, but why do you think I/we would be so impressionable as to accept only one way to negotiate a purchase? It would have been nice to have had a real life example to help understand the points you were trying to make...curiosity as well. But, no big deal.
Since we lacking a "story" here, I'll offer mine. Would like to hear yours as well bobst, if you don't mind. Critiques welcome.
July, 2004...after several months of research on minivans and test drives of the Sienna, Odyssey and Nissan Quest, the wife and I decided to take a look at the Mazda MPV. I wouldn't say we went to buy, but I took along all of my research material(invoice prices) just in case. We spent about an hour with the salesperson talking about the van as well as taking it on about a 20 minute test drive.
My wife decided she liked the vehilce. The van had 13 miles, a sticker price of $26,000. It had a $3,000 rebate that had just expired. We had all of our financing preapproved, and were looking to put down anywhere between 10-14k. The salesmanager sees us out talking to our salesperson, so he comes out and says hello. I'm not buying without the rebate. So, the first thing I throw out is if the rebate is still available. I'll never forget the look on the salesmanagers face...confused/unsure (I'm thinking he's thinking about which way to go with his answer) He seems to reluctantly say it is. Great! They invite us in to talk over "the numbers". I have already looked at my invoice numbers for the van and all options. So, I am looking to start out at around $400 under invoice and will pay up to $200 over invoice. That is my "range".
I can't really recall who threw out the first number, but I think I did. The saleslady is a green pea, and seems kind of lost. So, the sales manager comes over. Shows me their invoice number which is a lot higher than mine. He doesn't question my honesty or resources, but acts confused...saying they would be losing money. He states he has taken the 3k rebate off. But, I tell him he has only taken the 3k off of sticker, and that I would prefer he take it off to what price I had given. He sits back in his chair and changes tactics. He now wants to get friendly and starts talking to the wife and I about our career...kids etc. I had read previously that this was a trick dealerships us to get more money out of a consumer. So, I gave short, though polite, replies to his inquiries. He says lets go back out and look at the van. We do so. The salesmanager talks of all the saftey features etc. But, I guess we were still about $1,500 apart. Time put in thus far...about 2 hours. It's getting dark...we mention our baby sitter.oops. He doesn't seem to want to budge. So, I suggest I go home and I'll look back over my numbers...come back tomorrow if I were in error.( I meant this). Salesmanager wants no part of that. Invites us back in saying "we can work this out". We go in. He comes down about $800. I say no. He goes into how little profit he would be making on the deal. I stand up and again tell him that we were going to go ahead and go...and that I would check my numbers. He sighs...leans back in his chair and says "nintey percent of the people that say they will come back never do...we can work this out...let me go check my numbers again". He comes back and is $300 over invoice...I counter with $200 over. I'll never forget the look in his face...beaten. He looks a bit flustered and upset...but says okay...says something about the salesperson not getting a commission. This was an out the door price by the way. Anyhow, it's like an hour or two after closing. The F&I guy has already gone home. So, unbeknownst to me...time pressure seems to have been an allie for me that night.
To me it was an enjoyable experience.(I loved the negotiation process with big(?) money at stake.) The salesmanager wrapped up the paperwork, and we were out in our new zoom zoom of a Mazda MPV.
My last 5 car purchases during the past 10 years all have several things in common;
I go by myself to conduct test drives, always during the week. This way I'm always dressed in my normal professional attire. My rapport with sales persons tend to be more low key and professional, which suits my style. During this stage, I'm still trying to decide if I like the car among the few I've narrowed the field down to. I don't need other people to "help" me or distract me - I'll be driving the car, not my friends or significant other. I don't start negotiating, but do mention if I'm trading or not, but again no discussion of numbers. The time this takes is however long the test drive is plus a bit of time gathering brochures or other information the salesperson provides. I'm always courteous and respectful as long as the salesperson is likewise.
I finally narrow down to 2 specific cars, go back for a second test drive, and start preliminary discussions for pricing and trade values. After a brief discussion on the "numbers", I'll state I will make a decision by this Friday, or whatever day I choose in the very near future, but again, always a week day and not the weekend. Surprisingly, I am never pressured to make a "drive-off" decision that day. I usually follow-up with phone calls on any questions I have with my sales person.
I make a final decision on the day I said I would, and then go to my chosen dealer. I always call the sales person from whom I'm not buying the car from to let him/her know of my decision. I also call ahead to make sure my sales person at my chosen dealership is available before I arrive. From the moment I arrive to when I leave, it usually takes about 2 hours. This includes about 1/2 hour discussion to arrive at final numbers, another 1/2 to hour for the paperwork in the finance office to be prepped, then another 1/2 to 45 minutes signing doc's and waiting for the car as it's prepped for delivery.
It may sound like a long and drawn out process, but it's actually very simple and doesn't consume or waste a lot of mine or anyone else's time. I've always gotten very good deals, some of them very exceptional good deals. :shades:
Being in a major metropolitan area, there is no shortage of dealers to talk to.
I "think" the point socal is making in the difference between your two approaches is that YOUR take it or leave it offer may not be the "bottom"
But I would agree in that it is the price you are happy with so who cares.
Once again, I "think" socal is saying that there is a chance that "your" price may not be a few hundred dollars from the bottom but perhaps $500 - $1,000. I think "most" of us would forgo $100 -$300 to save a few hours. But it would be worth our while for an extra $500 - $1,000.
I think any approach is as good as our research. With ALL things being equal, my guess is if you and socal both had the "true bottom" he would have a slightly better chance of making the deal any day of the month.
I think your approach work best at end of month or when some other "volume" incentive is in place, when the dealer is motivated to push cars off the curb. Perhaps the dealer had a great February and on March 5th they are just not motivated to do a "volume" deal.
Just my thoughts...