As in my previous example, if you start at invoice ($20000) on a Honda Accord and they say no, you might offer $20100, then $20200, then $20300.
If you spend your negotiation time countering your own counters, without getting the dealer to name a number of his own, then you need to go back through the thread and learn more about negotiation techniques. Countering your own offer with a succession of higher offers is a poor strategy, and I wouldn't recommend it.
After the dealer gives a price, do you ever make a counter-offer?
The ideal is to get the dealer to come down on his price regardless if its at or below your acceptible price. This can be done agessively by counter offering or passively by questioning the price.
The thing is never accept the first offer, at least right away.
Also avoid stating a price as long as you can.
As for Socal I can see that neither one of use would be able to buy a car from the other. I can see each of us trying to get the other to blink first.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But on a BMW 750Li, for example, would you use that same increment? Assume an invoice price of $80000. Do you counter with $80100, then $80200, then $80300..... I'd imagine you'd be there all day on a car like that using $100 intervals!!!
REAL 7 series buyers would not negotiate like that, they typically will allow a profit because they are paying for an experience, and they have class and respect.
My A8 buyers might go one or two rounds but 75% will buy the car at a 1000 off because they value their time, they know what kind of service they will receive. Those are the easiest sales. A8 buyers who try to grind, (and right now 06 A8s are few and inbetween) cant really afford the car to begin with, or are in no danger of buying a car.
they typically will allow a profit because they are paying for an experience
The car is exactly the same, whether I pay a lot for it or just a little.
The best experience is the one that gets me the same car for less money. I'll leave it to you to make sure that this price will provide you with a profit.
You start with below cost, and keep increasing till you get a sale. You get to know the market by the reaction of the dealer as you offer them a price. As I said, all it guarantees is that you pay a reasonable price, not necessarily the lowest that the market will bear.
not bad advice...but one thing we have encountered lately is offers so far below cost that we immediately stop negotiations and fold up the tent. It's hard to take somebody seriously if they make goofy offers...goofy like the dealer trying to get $2000 over MSRP on a Taurus. LOL We just stand up and say "I appreciate the offer but we are so far apart that perhaps we should consider something else" and start to walk away. This either rattles the guy so much they start to babble much higher numbers or they leave....Which tells me I didn't have anything but a headache anyway...
Time is very important to salespeople and customers alike...no need to tie up a salesperson with a guy who is threating to buy something...maybe, if we can raise his offer $3000...LOL. It's also insane to waste a customers time with idiotic first offers if the buyer is clearly a buyer who is making reasonable offers.
I don't need to define fair profit. As the salesperson, this is your job, not mine.
My job is to determine the range of acceptable prices, and then pay a price at the lower end of that range. The less I pay, the more money that I have available for myself and my family, whom I care more about than I do the dealership.
I presume that this price makes you a profit, otherwise you wouldn't consider it to be acceptable. You are intelligent businesspeople, and I assume that you know enough about your business to close deals that make a profit (or that minimize your losses).
That's it, very simple. "Fairness" really has nothing to do with it. If you don't like the deal, you won't take it -- what's so hard about that?
It's also insane to waste a customers time with idiotic first offers if the buyer is clearly a buyer who is making reasonable offers.
I don't see anybody here advocating that (although I'm sure that there are some buyers who try, and then fail.)
Making an offer $10k below invoice is probably not going to get you anywhere, unless there is a marketing incentive for a similar amount to sweeten that deal. That doesn't mean that you can't use available data such as the invoice, holdback and other data to ballpark a reasonable price range ("reasonable" being defined as close enough to reality that the deal is worth discussing).
A8 buyers who try to grind, (and right now 06 A8s are few and inbetween) cant really afford the car to begin with, or are in no danger of buying a car.
I know one guy who could afford to buy a new A8 every time he empties the gas tank, yet he will grind every last cent from you if he were to buy one.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
He couldnt grind too much right now on an A8 that car is hot right now and we can not get enough in. Even the short bodies are selling.
Totally unrealated, but the last A8 I sold, the guy traded in a porche that he was 40 grand in the tank. (he rolled in 20 grand on a previous car.) We found a bank that would carry 200% for 72 months. He is paying 2250 a month for 6 years. He financed 120,000 on a selling price 81,000 A8.
I don't see the point of that. If I opt to buy one, then we'll talk numbers.
In any case, I'd say that it is those who can least afford the purchase who are also the same people who are most likely to overpay. The overpayers are generally paying a price based upon a combination of fear and ego, and have talked themselves into believing that they must make the purchase, an attitude that will naturally raise the price.
A good businessperson realizes that the price is really just a way to keep score, and negotiates competitively, no matter what it is, simply because it is fun to win. When I negotiate for the lowest price, it's not because I can't afford to pay more, but because it's entertaining and enjoyable to win.
Again, I appreciate your efforts to stigmatize negotiation throughout this forum. I can appreciate why you, as a salesperson, would prefer customers to minimize their negotiation efforts, but that advice is good for the dealership, not for us.
He couldnt grind too much right now on an A8 that car is hot right now and we can not get enough in. Even the short bodies are selling.
Totally unrealated, but the last A8 I sold, the guy traded in a porche that he was 40 grand in the tank. (he rolled in 20 grand on a previous car.) We found a bank that would carry 200% for 72 months. He is paying 2250 a month for 6 years. He financed 120,000 on a selling price 81,000 A8.
First of all I am all in on Negotiations, and trust me I can go back and forth for a long time, and in the end You will win, because I will make you believe you won.
But will I go back and forth and deal with someone who budges 100 dollars and hour? Probably not. I provide a service and I am damn good at my job and Its my career. My customers send their friends and family to me because I take care of them. I go above and beyond for my clients no matter how much they pay sticker or invoice. But I am good enough where I can walk away from someone who just for kicks have a sparring match with me so they can get their mooch deal.
Again, I appreciate your efforts to stigmatize negotiation throughout this forum.
I don't think anyone is trying to stigmatize negotiations here. But many believe that your style may not be the best way to look at it (me being one of them).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But I am good enough where I can walk away from someone who just for kicks have a sparring match with me so they can get their mooch deal.
Actually, I've advocated that buyers should generally avoid "sparring" with the dealer, it really isn't necessary.
I'm sure that you're good at your job, which is to make more money for the dealership. I hope you can see how that doesn't match with my priorities, but I've bought cars from folks like you, anyway.
(And by the way, that ego is easily turned back on you, so I'd advise that you not wear it on your sleeve like that, some of us can see through that, and use it to our advantage. Ego, and the concurrent desire to shout down customers who offer any hint of resistance, is an Achilles heel that is very common within your business. I think anyone reading these threads can see this.)
Bdr, you're very entertaining, not sure why you've been thrown into such a fit about this.
Hehe... I'm glad I'm entertaining, but I wasn't aware I was thrown into a fit. :confuse: I'm just amazed at the matter-of-fact-ness about you.... yet when someone probes, you say that it's not relevant or not important or whatever. Just a chuckle is all I can muster at this point.
Feel free to research the BMW CSI-related payments for yourself, if you like. Unfortunately, the technology doesn't allow me to link to books, and Edmunds doesn't allow us to link to other forums where this matter is discussed, but if you're resourceful, you'll figure it out.
Obviously you can't insert a hyperlink to a printed book, but I don't think Edmunds has a problem with posting the name of a book and author. If you're resourceful, I'm sure you can type out the name of the publication. Likewise, I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem giving some specific google search terms that will bring up exactly what you speak of. I tried "bmw csi dealer bonus" and scrolled through 5 search results pages.... nada. What do you recommend?
As for my profession, it really doesn't matter. Are the invoice prices, holdbacks, and floorplans affected by what I do for a living? At least I'm not a dealer trolling the site to build my book of business.
Hehe... see my above comment. Of course it may not directly relate to the discussion, but Terry wondered what business you were in and perhaps how it related to the "behind the scenes" car business. If it's no big deal, then why wouldn't you just say? Are you embarrassed about it or something? There are plenty of people online here that post their profession even if it doesn't relate to "invoice prices, holdbacks, and floorplans".... Perhaps the least you could do is humanize yourself and come down to everyone else's level.
I don't think anyone is trying to stigmatize negotiations here
Actually, there has been quite a bit of effort to do that. If are to believe some of what the dealers have told us, we would have to conclude that negotiations are difficult and distasteful, that the auto business is far too complex for any of us mere mortals to understand, and that effective negotiation won't save us much money.
All of those positions are false. And these ploys being used here are actually very similar to what they use during the actual purchase process, these arguments are being pulled right out of the normal sales playbook, they are nothing new. (For example, the arguments that "holdback isn't profit" or "holdback is none of your business" are pretty much out of Car Sales 101, these positions are standard operating procedure at dealerships because they want you to ignore this important source of revenue, and pay more because of it.)
So I'm glad that they post this stuff here, because it prepares us for the types of methods and faulty arguments that one can expect when actually purchasing a car. But it is pretty transparent and easy to work past, and there is no need to fall for any of it.
Bdr, you've already got a Land Rover dealer who admits to have an alternative program to holdback.
You can also type [bmw csi holdback] into a search engine as well as anyone. Those comments match what I have found in other sources.
You also might consider that it would be very hard for BMW, Land Rover, etc. to convince dealers to join their dealership networks if they didn't provide similar avenues for revenue that the other automakers offer.
I'll leave it to you to do the math. But if you don't want to, feel free to pay more -- really, nobody's stopping you.
Personally, I think that walking out of five dealerships to get a higher priced deal at the sixth is going to be far more time consuming (and is probably more costly, too).
I saw this coming, so i'm not sure why i didn't address it before it was asked.
If you know what you are doing and make the right offer, you won't have to walk out of 5 dealerships.
And, if you want to get technical, I've only walked out of an average of one dealership per deal. Its usually the one I test drive at. After that, its simply a round of phone calls and/or emails to find the dealer who isn't holding out for a sucker.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And by the way, that ego is easily turned back on you, so I'd advise that you not wear it on your sleeve like that, some of us can see through that, and use it to our advantage. Ego, and the concurrent desire to shout down customers who offer any hint of resistance, is an Achilles heel that is very common within your business. I think anyone reading these threads can see this.)
Do not confuse my self respect with arrogance. Remember what I talked about yesterday information overload? I think you are doing more harm than good with people giving them more to worry about throwing CSI money in the mix. Did you know that the dealership also makes money in their soda machines too big profit area!
Dallasveedubgirl carbuying 101
1. Pick car, research specs and prices. 2. Take extended test drive. 3. Get pre-approved.(but be open to manufactures financing or lease options.) 4. Get a real life buy bid on trade. so if you dont like what the dealer offers you can have another option. 5. Call sales manager, ask if certain car is in stock offer $500 over invoice minus any rebates applicable. Tell them you are ready to buy, and that you will leave if numbers change when you arrive($1000 over for luxury cars and hot sellers) 6.Pick up car. Sign contract. Read what you sign. 7. enjoy your car.
If you're walking out of even one dealership, and this is a matter of routine, then I would suggest that your method possesses the advantages and disadvantages of Bob's approach. On the plus side, this approach protects you from being outfoxed into overpaying by large amounts (assuming that you've done your research). However, it also likely sets you up to overpay by some amount because you never really gave yourself a chance to truly find the seller's lowest price point, you simply guessed and probably never quite found it.
I know that many people long for the day that buying a car becomes like buying a can of soup. But that day isn't here, and since it's a sport played by rules defined by the dealer, I find it far less dramatic and much more enjoyable to learn the rules of the game and play it well. The people who hate it the most are the ones who hate it, try to change it, and resent it, not those who can go with the flow.
"As for my profession, it really doesn't matter. Are the invoice prices, holdbacks, and floorplans affected by what I do for a living? At least I'm not a dealer trolling the site to build my book of business."
You know I have avoided directly answering your posts since I a beliver in not feeding trolls but I have to comment on this. I am also sure that I will regret not following my own advice.
How exactly are we trolling for business on here? Unless you registered your name before a certain date, like IsellHondas, you can't even mention what brand you sell in your name. You can't say anything about your dealership in any posts that would be contact information without having them deleted. My email is public in my profile because I don't mind answering questions over it if people don't want to ask them in the forum. I however, do not use my company email in the profile; since I do not want my profile to look like advertising. I do conduct some business over my hotmail email account but I mainly use it for other car related things.
I do my best to answer any quetions on the Land Rover specific boards and I do not expect anything out of it. Although a thank you would be nice on occasion. I don't do it in an efford to gather mor business I do it because I really love cars and I know Land Rovers can be tempermental. They will do just stupid things that may or may not be serious and may or may not be normal. I have no problem helping someone figure out their car if their sales guide did not go over something as well as he/she should have.
How is Terry trolling for business over at Real World Trade in Values? He spends a whole lot of time over their answering questions for no monetary gain at all. If you added up all the time all of the sales people spend on her answering questions and helping with various problems it is probably costing us money when we could be out selling cars.
ooh I missed that one!! I agree I love cars and I love helping people, because there is so MUCH MISINFORMATION out there. If I can save someone money or help with chanllenged credit it is my random act of kindness for the day!!
Try to spin it any way you like, but my method takes way less time than standing against a saleman, unzipping our pants, and pulling out the rulers. There is no need for all of that. I get the feeling you care more about the nose-to-nose action than you do the deal itself.
Like I said before, my deals are always competitive with the best that people claim to have gotten, and they take me a fraction of the time to complete, so I save even more money in the form of my time.
Do your homework and there is no guessing involved. My way seems much more accurate than your way. Seems to me you are taking shots in the dark and hoping something sticks. My way, I KNOW what the lowest pricerange is that dealers are accepting, and that is my goal.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That's actually not a bad formula for getting a decent deal.
But it is quite possible to do better than that, and it is no more difficult for a reasonably competent negotiator to beat that deal than it is to meet it. Not every customer wants to go for steeper discounting (fortunately for you), but those who do can do quite nicely, if they plan and game it properly.
"5. Call sales manager, ask if certain car is in stock offer $500 over invoice minus any rebates applicable. Tell them you are ready to buy, and that you will leave if numbers change when you arrive($1000 over for luxury cars and hot sellers)"
But, but, but someone might walk in and spend 5 hours negotiating and get it for only $350 over invoice. The thought of leaving $150 on the table. I think I'm going to cry.
Do your homework and there is no guessing involved. My way seems much more accurate than your way. Seems to me you are taking shots in the dark and hoping something sticks. My way, I KNOW what the lowest pricerange is that dealers are accepting, and that is my goal.
That's where you are incorrect. You can certainly guesstimate a range based upon invoice, holdback, etc., but you don't truly know where the bottom of that range is -- unless you have access to a database of completed sales with full price information, you couldn't possibly know this.
Using your method, you may get pretty close or you may not, you won't ever really know. You may not pay top dollar, but it is highly unlikely that you paid bottom dollar, either.
Tell me something: what exactly are you "negotiating"??
If you can't get your first offer met, then you are doing something wrong. I'm surprised that, in your world of "hard-nosed negotiating" you don't find a problem with EVER raising your offer price. Apparently, though, that's what you are doing.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That's where you are incorrect. You can certainly guesstimate a range based upon invoice, holdback, etc., but you don't truly know where the bottom of that range is -- unless you have access to a database of completed sales with full price information, you couldn't possibly know this. Using your method, you may get pretty close or you may not, you won't ever really know. You may not pay top dollar, but it is highly unlikely that you paid bottom dollar, either.
What is bottom dollar?
Spending 4 hours to save $100?
My time is worth more than that. You don't feel yours is, and that's fine. But that's also why your method isn't gospel and isn't the best way to do business.
By the way, you do have a database of completed transactions. Have you visited the Prices Paid forums?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Ok before you even do that I would strongly suggest looking at your budget and seeing what you can afford for a down payment and a monthly payment, work your way backwards from there to see what price car you can truely afford.
2. Take extended test drive. 3. Get pre-approved.(but be open to manufactures financing or lease options.) 4. Get a real life buy bid on trade. so if you dont like what the dealer offers you can have another option.
All pretty good ideals
5. Call sales manager, ask if certain car is in stock offer $500 over invoice minus any rebates applicable. Tell them you are ready to buy, and that you will leave if numbers change when you arrive($1000 over for luxury cars and hot sellers)
This is where researching selling prices helps out. $1,000 over invoice for hot sellers may not be enough. At times hot cars have gone for thousands over sticker. Right now you most likely will get nowhere offering $1,000 over invoice on a Solstice.
This is where good negotiation techniques come into play. Remember don't mention price first.
6.Pick up car. Sign contract. Read what you sign. 7. enjoy your car.
Again good advice.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you can't get your first offer met, then you are doing something wrong. I'm surprised that, in your world of "hard-nosed negotiating" you don't find a problem with EVER raising your offer price. Apparently, though, that's what you are doing.
Actually, I have been advocating that people prepare their offers and counteroffers to allow for a possible increase or two, but not offering that increase unless necessary.
These are basic tenets of negotiation here -- you don't make something best-and-final in Round 1, because it's ineffective on a lot of levels. Study negotiation techniques, and you'll see that this best-and-final-upfront almost never gets you the best deal.
You can also type [bmw csi holdback] into a search engine as well as anyone. Those comments match what I have found in other sources.
What I found was other random people on BMW forums saying the same thing I said. (which, BTW, I would hardly deem an "official" source) Anyways, here's a quote from one forum, which you can compare to my post #737.
I would say no AUTOMATIC holdback. The dealer has to earn it through CSI scores. If the CSI scores are too low, and it doesn't take much to make them too low, then no "holdback" or whaterver you want to call it.
These are basic tenets of negotiation here -- you don't make something best-and-final in Round 1, because it's ineffective on a lot of levels.
Like I said, you apparently like wasting your time. Negotiation is for those who don't know what they are after. If you did your homework, then you know what you should offer and that's it. There is too much information available these days to necessitate negotiating. Come on in to the 21st century, the water is fine.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Bdr, once again, you're free to pay more. You can elect to use knowledge about the CSI-based compensation methods to your advantage, or you can ignore it and pay more. Your choice, really.
Do your homework and there is no guessing involved. My way seems much more accurate than your way.
I am not sure about that. While Socals posts do seem to reflect some anger and hate towards those who sell cars he is correct in many instances. Going in and negotiating a price will, in most cases, present the buyer with a lower cost. Of course I do not advocate haggling an additional hour to get an extra $100 off, to me its just not worth it and may not even pay off. Thats the best way to get the lowest price.
If you research and come up with a price and present it you will never know if your in the ballpark or way off.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you can't get your first offer met, then you are doing something wrong.
If you get your first offer met then you are doing something wrong, especially if it is accepted right away. Lets say I walk into a dealership and say "I will give you $19,000 for car 'X'". If the salesman says ok all sorts of bells and whistles will go off in my head saying "you are going to pay to much".
Thats one of the reasons to get the other guy to name a price first.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My dad somehow thinks I have a plethra of time on my hands and when ever he itches to buy a car he wants me to do it for him. (he goes to the school of "300 over cost and you better be back in 5 mins or i walk." good in theory but not in real world) So this is the method I use, and Give the managers my dads credit report, the offer, and from when I come in to pick up the car, we usually are out in hour and a half. Hes happy, he got a great deal and did nothing. I am happy because, I do not have go with him watch him grumble, and it only took 2 hours out of my life.
Including "customary" (in FL) dealer's fee of $300+ or not, i.e. should I take invoice, add $1000 AND fees or take invoice add $1000 subtract fees and put that as my bidding "price"? I know we always are advised to talk OTD, but sometimes it is easier to talk "dealer's language" (i.e. not including cutomary Dealer's Boat Payment Contribution preprinted in the contract). So is $1000 reasonable as a total profit on a single purchase transaction, or should it be $1000 "plus"?
Comments
If you spend your negotiation time countering your own counters, without getting the dealer to name a number of his own, then you need to go back through the thread and learn more about negotiation techniques. Countering your own offer with a succession of higher offers is a poor strategy, and I wouldn't recommend it.
The ideal is to get the dealer to come down on his price regardless if its at or below your acceptible price. This can be done agessively by counter offering or passively by questioning the price.
The thing is never accept the first offer, at least right away.
Also avoid stating a price as long as you can.
As for Socal I can see that neither one of use would be able to buy a car from the other. I can see each of us trying to get the other to blink first.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
REAL 7 series buyers would not negotiate like that, they typically will allow a profit because they are paying for an experience, and they have class and respect.
My A8 buyers might go one or two rounds but 75% will buy the car at a 1000 off because they value their time, they know what kind of service they will receive. Those are the easiest sales. A8 buyers who try to grind, (and right now 06 A8s are few and inbetween) cant really afford the car to begin with, or are in no danger of buying a car.
The car is exactly the same, whether I pay a lot for it or just a little.
The best experience is the one that gets me the same car for less money. I'll leave it to you to make sure that this price will provide you with a profit.
not bad advice...but one thing we have encountered lately is offers so far below cost that we immediately stop negotiations and fold up the tent. It's hard to take somebody seriously if they make goofy offers...goofy like the dealer trying to get $2000 over MSRP on a Taurus. LOL
We just stand up and say "I appreciate the offer but we are so far apart that perhaps we should consider something else" and start to walk away. This either rattles the guy so much they start to babble much higher numbers or they leave....Which tells me I didn't have anything but a headache anyway...
Time is very important to salespeople and customers alike...no need to tie up a salesperson with a guy who is threating to buy something...maybe, if we can raise his offer $3000...LOL. It's also insane to waste a customers time with idiotic first offers if the buyer is clearly a buyer who is making reasonable offers.
My job is to determine the range of acceptable prices, and then pay a price at the lower end of that range. The less I pay, the more money that I have available for myself and my family, whom I care more about than I do the dealership.
I presume that this price makes you a profit, otherwise you wouldn't consider it to be acceptable. You are intelligent businesspeople, and I assume that you know enough about your business to close deals that make a profit (or that minimize your losses).
That's it, very simple. "Fairness" really has nothing to do with it. If you don't like the deal, you won't take it -- what's so hard about that?
I don't see anybody here advocating that (although I'm sure that there are some buyers who try, and then fail.)
Making an offer $10k below invoice is probably not going to get you anywhere, unless there is a marketing incentive for a similar amount to sweeten that deal. That doesn't mean that you can't use available data such as the invoice, holdback and other data to ballpark a reasonable price range ("reasonable" being defined as close enough to reality that the deal is worth discussing).
I know one guy who could afford to buy a new A8 every time he empties the gas tank, yet he will grind every last cent from you if he were to buy one.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Totally unrealated, but the last A8 I sold, the guy traded in a porche that he was 40 grand in the tank. (he rolled in 20 grand on a previous car.) We found a bank that would carry 200% for 72 months. He is paying 2250 a month for 6 years. He financed 120,000 on a selling price 81,000 A8.
Just the porch? Not the rest of the house?
He is paying 2250 a month for 6 years. He financed 120,000 on a selling price 81,000 A8.
$2,250????? I am not paying that much on my house payments. FWIW thats a rather high interest rate.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In any case, I'd say that it is those who can least afford the purchase who are also the same people who are most likely to overpay. The overpayers are generally paying a price based upon a combination of fear and ego, and have talked themselves into believing that they must make the purchase, an attitude that will naturally raise the price.
A good businessperson realizes that the price is really just a way to keep score, and negotiates competitively, no matter what it is, simply because it is fun to win. When I negotiate for the lowest price, it's not because I can't afford to pay more, but because it's entertaining and enjoyable to win.
Again, I appreciate your efforts to stigmatize negotiation throughout this forum. I can appreciate why you, as a salesperson, would prefer customers to minimize their negotiation efforts, but that advice is good for the dealership, not for us.
Totally unrealated, but the last A8 I sold, the guy traded in a porche that he was 40 grand in the tank. (he rolled in 20 grand on a previous car.) We found a bank that would carry 200% for 72 months. He is paying 2250 a month for 6 years. He financed 120,000 on a selling price 81,000 A8.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But will I go back and forth and deal with someone who budges 100 dollars and hour? Probably not. I provide a service and I am damn good at my job and Its my career. My customers send their friends and family to me because I take care of them. I go above and beyond for my clients no matter how much they pay sticker or invoice. But I am good enough where I can walk away from someone who just for kicks have a sparring match with me so they can get their mooch deal.
I don't think anyone is trying to stigmatize negotiations here. But many believe that your style may not be the best way to look at it (me being one of them).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually, I've advocated that buyers should generally avoid "sparring" with the dealer, it really isn't necessary.
I'm sure that you're good at your job, which is to make more money for the dealership. I hope you can see how that doesn't match with my priorities, but I've bought cars from folks like you, anyway.
(And by the way, that ego is easily turned back on you, so I'd advise that you not wear it on your sleeve like that, some of us can see through that, and use it to our advantage. Ego, and the concurrent desire to shout down customers who offer any hint of resistance, is an Achilles heel that is very common within your business. I think anyone reading these threads can see this.)
Hehe... I'm glad I'm entertaining, but I wasn't aware I was thrown into a fit. :confuse: I'm just amazed at the matter-of-fact-ness about you.... yet when someone probes, you say that it's not relevant or not important or whatever. Just a chuckle is all I can muster at this point.
Feel free to research the BMW CSI-related payments for yourself, if you like. Unfortunately, the technology doesn't allow me to link to books, and Edmunds doesn't allow us to link to other forums where this matter is discussed, but if you're resourceful, you'll figure it out.
Obviously you can't insert a hyperlink to a printed book, but I don't think Edmunds has a problem with posting the name of a book and author. If you're resourceful, I'm sure you can type out the name of the publication. Likewise, I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem giving some specific google search terms that will bring up exactly what you speak of. I tried "bmw csi dealer bonus" and scrolled through 5 search results pages.... nada. What do you recommend?
As for my profession, it really doesn't matter. Are the invoice prices, holdbacks, and floorplans affected by what I do for a living? At least I'm not a dealer trolling the site to build my book of business.
Hehe... see my above comment.
Actually, there has been quite a bit of effort to do that. If are to believe some of what the dealers have told us, we would have to conclude that negotiations are difficult and distasteful, that the auto business is far too complex for any of us mere mortals to understand, and that effective negotiation won't save us much money.
All of those positions are false. And these ploys being used here are actually very similar to what they use during the actual purchase process, these arguments are being pulled right out of the normal sales playbook, they are nothing new. (For example, the arguments that "holdback isn't profit" or "holdback is none of your business" are pretty much out of Car Sales 101, these positions are standard operating procedure at dealerships because they want you to ignore this important source of revenue, and pay more because of it.)
So I'm glad that they post this stuff here, because it prepares us for the types of methods and faulty arguments that one can expect when actually purchasing a car. But it is pretty transparent and easy to work past, and there is no need to fall for any of it.
You can also type [bmw csi holdback] into a search engine as well as anyone. Those comments match what I have found in other sources.
You also might consider that it would be very hard for BMW, Land Rover, etc. to convince dealers to join their dealership networks if they didn't provide similar avenues for revenue that the other automakers offer.
I'll leave it to you to do the math. But if you don't want to, feel free to pay more -- really, nobody's stopping you.
We must be reading different forums.
All of those positions are false.
Thats to general a statement, to some people it is false, to others it is true. Everyone is different so don't force everyone into your mold.
But it is pretty transparent and easy to work past, and there is no need to fall for any of it.
Says the pot as he calls the kettle black.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I saw this coming, so i'm not sure why i didn't address it before it was asked.
If you know what you are doing and make the right offer, you won't have to walk out of 5 dealerships.
And, if you want to get technical, I've only walked out of an average of one dealership per deal. Its usually the one I test drive at. After that, its simply a round of phone calls and/or emails to find the dealer who isn't holding out for a sucker.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Do not confuse my self respect with arrogance. Remember what I talked about yesterday information overload? I think you are doing more harm than good with people giving them more to worry about throwing CSI money in the mix. Did you know that the dealership also makes money in their soda machines too big profit area!
Dallasveedubgirl carbuying 101
1. Pick car, research specs and prices.
2. Take extended test drive.
3. Get pre-approved.(but be open to manufactures financing or lease options.)
4. Get a real life buy bid on trade. so if you dont like what the dealer offers you can have another option.
5. Call sales manager, ask if certain car is in stock offer $500 over invoice minus any rebates applicable. Tell them you are ready to buy, and that you will leave if numbers change when you arrive($1000 over for luxury cars and hot sellers)
6.Pick up car. Sign contract. Read what you sign.
7. enjoy your car.
Pretty simple.
I know that many people long for the day that buying a car becomes like buying a can of soup. But that day isn't here, and since it's a sport played by rules defined by the dealer, I find it far less dramatic and much more enjoyable to learn the rules of the game and play it well. The people who hate it the most are the ones who hate it, try to change it, and resent it, not those who can go with the flow.
You know I have avoided directly answering your posts since I a beliver in not feeding trolls but I have to comment on this. I am also sure that I will regret not following my own advice.
How exactly are we trolling for business on here? Unless you registered your name before a certain date, like IsellHondas, you can't even mention what brand you sell in your name. You can't say anything about your dealership in any posts that would be contact information without having them deleted. My email is public in my profile because I don't mind answering questions over it if people don't want to ask them in the forum. I however, do not use my company email in the profile; since I do not want my profile to look like advertising. I do conduct some business over my hotmail email account but I mainly use it for other car related things.
I do my best to answer any quetions on the Land Rover specific boards and I do not expect anything out of it. Although a thank you would be nice on occasion. I don't do it in an efford to gather mor business I do it because I really love cars and I know Land Rovers can be tempermental. They will do just stupid things that may or may not be serious and may or may not be normal. I have no problem helping someone figure out their car if their sales guide did not go over something as well as he/she should have.
How is Terry trolling for business over at Real World Trade in Values? He spends a whole lot of time over their answering questions for no monetary gain at all. If you added up all the time all of the sales people spend on her answering questions and helping with various problems it is probably costing us money when we could be out selling cars.
Like I said before, my deals are always competitive with the best that people claim to have gotten, and they take me a fraction of the time to complete, so I save even more money in the form of my time.
Do your homework and there is no guessing involved. My way seems much more accurate than your way. Seems to me you are taking shots in the dark and hoping something sticks. My way, I KNOW what the lowest pricerange is that dealers are accepting, and that is my goal.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But it is quite possible to do better than that, and it is no more difficult for a reasonably competent negotiator to beat that deal than it is to meet it. Not every customer wants to go for steeper discounting (fortunately for you), but those who do can do quite nicely, if they plan and game it properly.
But, but, but someone might walk in and spend 5 hours negotiating and get it for only $350 over invoice. The thought of leaving $150 on the table. I think I'm going to cry.
That's where you are incorrect. You can certainly guesstimate a range based upon invoice, holdback, etc., but you don't truly know where the bottom of that range is -- unless you have access to a database of completed sales with full price information, you couldn't possibly know this.
Using your method, you may get pretty close or you may not, you won't ever really know. You may not pay top dollar, but it is highly unlikely that you paid bottom dollar, either.
If you can't get your first offer met, then you are doing something wrong. I'm surprised that, in your world of "hard-nosed negotiating" you don't find a problem with EVER raising your offer price. Apparently, though, that's what you are doing.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Using your method, you may get pretty close or you may not, you won't ever really know. You may not pay top dollar, but it is highly unlikely that you paid bottom dollar, either.
What is bottom dollar?
Spending 4 hours to save $100?
My time is worth more than that. You don't feel yours is, and that's fine. But that's also why your method isn't gospel and isn't the best way to do business.
By the way, you do have a database of completed transactions. Have you visited the Prices Paid forums?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
1. Pick car, research specs and prices.
Ok before you even do that I would strongly suggest looking at your budget and seeing what you can afford for a down payment and a monthly payment, work your way backwards from there to see what price car you can truely afford.
2. Take extended test drive.
3. Get pre-approved.(but be open to manufactures financing or lease options.)
4. Get a real life buy bid on trade. so if you dont like what the dealer offers you can have another option.
All pretty good ideals
5. Call sales manager, ask if certain car is in stock offer $500 over invoice minus any rebates applicable. Tell them you are ready to buy, and that you will leave if numbers change when you arrive($1000 over for luxury cars and hot sellers)
This is where researching selling prices helps out. $1,000 over invoice for hot sellers may not be enough. At times hot cars have gone for thousands over sticker. Right now you most likely will get nowhere offering $1,000 over invoice on a Solstice.
This is where good negotiation techniques come into play. Remember don't mention price first.
6.Pick up car. Sign contract. Read what you sign.
7. enjoy your car.
Again good advice.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually, I have been advocating that people prepare their offers and counteroffers to allow for a possible increase or two, but not offering that increase unless necessary.
These are basic tenets of negotiation here -- you don't make something best-and-final in Round 1, because it's ineffective on a lot of levels. Study negotiation techniques, and you'll see that this best-and-final-upfront almost never gets you the best deal.
It doesn't take four hours, and it saves a lot more than $100. If you need four hours to get only $100, then you need to refine your tactics.
What I found was other random people on BMW forums saying the same thing I said. (which, BTW, I would hardly deem an "official" source) Anyways, here's a quote from one forum, which you can compare to my post #737.
I would say no AUTOMATIC holdback. The dealer has to earn it through CSI scores. If the CSI scores are too low, and it doesn't take much to make them too low, then no "holdback" or whaterver you want to call it.
Like I said, you apparently like wasting your time. Negotiation is for those who don't know what they are after. If you did your homework, then you know what you should offer and that's it. There is too much information available these days to necessitate negotiating. Come on in to the 21st century, the water is fine.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
reread my posts. i didn't spend 4 hours doing anything.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I am not sure about that. While Socals posts do seem to reflect some anger and hate towards those who sell cars he is correct in many instances. Going in and negotiating a price will, in most cases, present the buyer with a lower cost. Of course I do not advocate haggling an additional hour to get an extra $100 off, to me its just not worth it and may not even pay off. Thats the best way to get the lowest price.
If you research and come up with a price and present it you will never know if your in the ballpark or way off.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm just not understanding this. That's a complete contradiction. If you don't know, then you did NOT do your research.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
BINGO! (Show the man what he's won....) :P
I think most of it is just a fun power-trip. Buying a car is probably not the only place this personality is present.
If you get your first offer met then you are doing something wrong, especially if it is accepted right away. Lets say I walk into a dealership and say "I will give you $19,000 for car 'X'". If the salesman says ok all sorts of bells and whistles will go off in my head saying "you are going to pay to much".
Thats one of the reasons to get the other guy to name a price first.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
THANKS
My dad somehow thinks I have a plethra of time on my hands and when ever he itches to buy a car he wants me to do it for him. (he goes to the school of "300 over cost and you better be back in 5 mins or i walk." good in theory but not in real world) So this is the method I use, and Give the managers my dads credit report, the offer, and from when I come in to pick up the car, we usually are out in hour and a half. Hes happy, he got a great deal and did nothing. I am happy because, I do not have go with him watch him grumble, and it only took 2 hours out of my life.
2018 430i Gran Coupe