Negotiation is for those who don't know what they are after.
No words were ever spoken that were more false.
If you did your homework, then you know what you should offer and that's it.
If you do your homework you would know that there are to many variables that will effect prices of certain commodities over a very short time. Doing your homework may or may not get you into the ball park. Getting a good price most likely will require some negotiation.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm just not understanding this. That's a complete contradiction. If you don't know, then you did NOT do your research.
There's actually no contradiction whatsoever. Research is helpful, and I strongly encourage it, but it doesn't tell you everything that would help you to know what you need to know.
You are assuming that there is one "Magic Price" that is the absolute lowest that everyone uniformly accepts, which is rarely the case, particularly with products such as cars where the actual sales prices end up scattered across a wide range.
You don't seem to realize that the "best price" can change based upon a whole variety of factors, some of which are not obvious to you or within your control, and is affected by how you conduct yourself and the other parties' specific needs. Negotiations are not just about price, they are also shaped by time pressures and by the desire for parties to satisfy other needs, aside from price. If you assume that the dealer is interested only in your purchase price and nothing else, then you will miss a vital part of what the whole negotiation process is all about, and will probably overpay.
A rebate is generally a fixed dollar amount that you get for purchasing the car. You get the same rebate, regardless of the price you pay.
You should negotiate the car's price seperately from the rebate. For example, if you are going to buy the car at $200 above invoice, and there is a $1,000 rebate, then you should end up with the car at $800 below invoice. ($200-1,000= -800.)
I'm just not understanding this. That's a complete contradiction.
No contradiction involved. What do you research, most people here research invoice price, holdback and the like. All of that will give you a price based on that information. Now the open market may or may not support that figure. If it does come close to what the market is bearing than fine, if not the dealer will be laughing at you either as you walk out the door offering $18,000 on a car they can't keep in stock at $20,000 or on their way to the bank as you paid $18,000 for a car they cant sell at $17,000.
Now with regard to the actual selling price of a car you have to look at a car as another commodity, its price will fluxuate over time. Sometimes greatly over a very short time.
you can research to the cows come home, if its wrong or out dated its no good.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I checked edmunds TMV on several luxury cars. Now I know its not the most accurate way to test this but it seems the more entry level luxury cars can be had for around $1,000 over invoice. Like 3 series BMW's, C class MB's and Jags X class. However start moving up and you could be paying thousands over invoice, I think CL class MB's are 6+ grand over.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
although tounge in cheek, all offers should be before taxes and fees but be familiar with what they are. Florida and Califonia are the cesspools of the auto industry.
oh ya this method is for the average car buyer. Once you get to 7s the A8s, SLs ect, that is a whole other game. But in those cars it is what it is, There really is no haggling.
you guys are failing to realize that what I'm talking about is ACCURATE research. With ACCURATE research, you do know all the numbers, and you know what the current market supports, and you know the crying point of the dealer. I can only assume, based on your comments, that you fail to do accurate research, so must resort to dickering.
Also, the little bit of variable you are sometimes referring to that is outside of invoice, holdback, rebates, bonus certificates, etc. IS in fact VERY little money. SO little that its not worth the webspace we are taking up talking about it. You somehow think there is a mystery $1,000 lying around on a car. Its simply not true. Is it possible the owner had a good day at the track and can split $50 with you? Sure! If yer after it, go for it.
Me? I'd prefer not to save $25 negotiating while I pay someone $50 to mow my lawn because I was too occupied staring across the table at a salesperson.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Florida and Califonia are the cesspools of the auto industry.
Can you elaborate on this? Why do you think so? Why do you think it is so? Is it a known fact? Quite intriguing.
When I hear people saying $300 is "excessive" and "ridiculous", I always think "boy, come to our Tampa Bay friendly Toyota dealers and get car "at invoice" plus of course $699 dealer's fee". Like I said before, over time I got used to $300 as "normal" (I take then a correction for that in the price), but $699 doc fee still blows my mind - why not $1099 or better $2599?
I didn't say that the sources weren't reasonably accurate, but they aren't complete. You can figure out quite a bit about what the dealer's sources of revenue are (invoice, holdback, factory-to-dealer rebates, etc.), and you can make some educated guesses about some of the other components (i.e. floorplan charges).
But there may be some additional incentives that you may not know about, i.e. the extra sales commission available to the salesperson for that car on the lot that hasn't moved for two months. You also don't know whether the sales manager feels compelled to hit a number that he didn't last month, or if the salesman has a date that he's going to miss if he doesn't close this deal with you right this moment, or whatever other factors might affect your price.
And you don't really know what other people are paying, or whether the prices that they are paying reflect what you personally need to pay, at this given moment on this given day with your set of negotiation skills and the sales team that is working your deal.
Again, there is no Magic Price, and the deal isn't just about price. Research how negotiation works, such as with that link above, and you'll see what I mean.
you guys are failing to realize that what I'm talking about is ACCURATE research.
You are missing a few valid points.
1.) No research is accurate unless it can be measured against results. In other words you only know if your research is accurate if you try but fail to get a better price. You have to haggle to prove your research.
and
2.) Research is only accurate for the time period that the information was created. Things change over time and very rapidly this day and age. Whats true for last week might not hold up for next week.
Also, the little bit of variable you are sometimes referring to that is outside of invoice, holdback, rebates, bonus certificates, etc. IS in fact VERY little money.
You forget the one variable that truely matters, the market place can drive up or down the price of a car a great deal. PT Cruisers used to go for thousands over sticker, they now go for a few hundred over invoice. Granted it took a while for that to happen but other things do work at a faster pace.
You somehow think there is a mystery $1,000 lying around on a car.
No I do not think that. But I do know that for most makes the price can vary hundreds if not more from one day to the next from one person to the next. Two people at the same dealer at the same time buying Model 'X' with option package 'Y'. One will pay far more than the other, which one will you be?
Me? I'd prefer not to save $25 negotiating while I pay someone $50 to mow my lawn because I was too occupied staring across the table at a salesperson.
I agree, but I would prefer to save a few hundred with a little more effort.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You also don't know whether the sales manager feels compelled to hit a number that he didn't last month, or if the salesman has a date that he's going to miss if he doesn't close this deal with you right this moment, or whatever other factors might affect your price.
Last weekend, I accepted an offer that was about 200 less than what it should have sold for, but I had a wedding I had to be at, and as it was I was 2 hours late. But saving 1000s under circumstances like that. Probably not.
I appreciate your honesty with that insight, I really do.
These sorts of issues and pressures are not limited to car sales. I've done deals outside of car sales where I left money on the table for a variety of reasons, usually because it was expedient (i.e. I could use the transaction to hit a number that I needed to hit, or I just wanted/needed to put that particular deal behind me and move on), or the incentives weren't there (i.e. if I do X for another $10,000, but only 5% of that amount flows to my company or myself, I might let it slide because the small portion that inures to us/me isn't worth my additional effort.) Sometimes, we just needed the money, and a bird in hand was better than another bird that might not fly in anytime soon.
I had previously dealt with these people, and I told them that I would be available ONLY until 3pm, that I had to be at a wedding at 4pm that My fiance was the best man in. They showed up at 2pm, drove 3 cars 2 times each, and grinded me for about 2 hours. After I spent 3 hours with them they were going to leave over 200 dollars. My manager did not want to do the deal, but I would be damned if I missed the wedding and did not sell a car. So he felt bad for me and took the deal. I did not leave the dealership until 630 and they wanted to make sure I could get them out in time for their 7pm reservation at Ruth Chris steakhouse. I missed the wedding, and the reception. But hey I sold a car and the commision did not even pay for the outfit that I didnt have to wear that was non-returnable.
I told them that I would be available ONLY until 3pm, that I had to be at a wedding at 4pm that My fiance was the best man in.
Ouch, tough deal. Actually, that's a good lesson about the issues re: the impact of time pressures, because you made the error of giving to the other party the knowledge of your time constraints, while receiving nothing in return, and they then used that knowledge to their benefit and against your position.
I think they used an extreme version of what I'm talking about. I'd bet that had they gamed it a bit differently, they could have gotten that same price, but still gotten you to your wedding on time, or almost on time.
It was not an error, I told them and everyone else who was talking about coming in. Most of my people came in the early morning to do business. These people were coming from 2 hours away and I did not want them to be left hanging. Imagine if I said nothing and They showed up at 3 or later and I was not there.It would of been a poor reflection of me.
I would say that those folks timed their arrival to your departure time. They wanted to use your time constraint against you, because they knew that time pressures can be used to lower prices. The test drives were probably part of the overall plan to put you into a bind.
Had I been in your position, I would have probably told them that you were leaving at noon for some reason or another. With that information, they would have probably shown up at 11am, I'd bet that their timing was deliberate.
Later, after helping them for an hour or so, you could have "delayed your event for their convenience", which sends them the message that they miscalculated your time pressures (which is a bit deflating for them -- the game didn't go for them as planned). Plus, now they owe you a "favor" that you can toss back at them later during the negotiations as you push it to a close.
Here's a guess -- I'll bet that the Ruth Chris thing was a ploy, too. Once they had gamed you into the discount, they then used their time constraint as a lever against you to keep you from pulling it off the table, and limiting the time that the F&I guy had to move the price back up. Not sure if they got their $200 worth, but overall, they sound like decent negotiators when viewed in the context of a win-lose transaction. (Not the way to go for a win-win, though, if that was the objective.)
Did you think the guy could get prime? I had to check it out. 10.443%
And after only 3 years of payments equaling $81,000 he will still be about 25K in the hole assuming the A8 has a 55% residual at that point in time. Although my guess is it will be time for him to "upgrade" in two years.
So for the sales people, how often have you spent hours negotiating only to find the deal fall apart due to low credit scores or payment exceeds % of income?
Or is there "always" a bank that will give you 840 months and double digit interest rates to make the deal work?
I had a doctor client who had two cars, one leased (Lincoln) and one loaned (Porsche) total monthly payments about $5,500 *gack*
Doctors are a strange breed, banks love to loan them money, and some of the best tax court cases involve Doctor investment schemes. And I have found most are so leveraged its almost comical. I was just curious how they buy cars since there is so much keep up with the jones in that industry ill bet you can create options and tack on $$$ and tell them no one else has this!! *snicker*
Then I would be giving into the stereotype of Carsalespeople. I do not make it a habit of lying to customers.
I really do not think what they did was a ploy, I just think they were inconsiderate. Like I said it is what it is. If I start putting that much thought into every car deal and every customer, I would go nuts and then have to go on Klonopin or something.
I have enough control of my deals where I know what is going to happen in the box. A deal is a deal and I would never bump the price in the box. That is old school domestic store tactics. My customers were not going anywhere. They got a good deal, and they were not about to drive back to waco in their avalon with 170k miles on it. They were willing to forgo a pre dinner cocktail to get this car.
They were good negotiators, they had a price in mind and we met in the middle everyone was happy.
So for the sales people, how often have you spent hours negotiating only to find the deal fall apart due to low credit scores or payment exceeds % of income?
I wonder how many deals fall apart because od crap pulled with the F&I guy. I would say that more than half the time I walked out was due to the F&I guy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Did you see the article in the Tribune about the devices the used car lots use for sub-prime lenders?
You buy a car and there is a device mounted on your dash and you have to enter in a code in order for the car to start. The code expires after 30 days and when you bring in your next payment, the used car dealer gives you the new code.
So talk about both end of the spectrums, one guy paying $2,250 a month to keep an image and another having to make sure they get to the dealer on time so the car still runs.
my guy was and Internal Medicine doctor, and cool as can be. He Bought the Porsche 911 and his fiance told him to get rid of in and he was an Audi guy at heart anyway. He was happy as a pig in slop.
Most of the doctors I have done deals with paid for their vehicle with either cash or cash and trade. I think this is more a function of our clientel demographis though. Nearly all Range Rover owners are entrepreneurs of one type or another and if they are not then they are in a leadership position in their company. The majory of Land Rove owners as a whole are entrepreneurs.
Side note update: I delivered my Acura to the guy from Ohio today. He dropped off his old beat up van and drove of in a fantastic TL with navigation.
I was thinking about all the add ons and sales that the F&I guy tries. Like trying to convince you that the lender requires an extended warranty, or that they scotch guard every car and want to charge you $250 for 50 cents worth of scotch guard. Stuff like that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Two cars ago, I had to sit and sign "waivers" declining window etching, etc...finally I blew up and told the guy if i have to sign another fricking denial form I am out of here.
When I leased the Pilot, I did the final inspection of the car then went right in to F&I, and spent all of 5 minutes. Signed the leased, signed the odometer statement and he asked if i had any Qs and told me to enjoy the car.
My favorite story was that of a co-worker who years ago, executed a 3 year lease and afterwards the F&I made the hard push for the extended warranty. F&I wouldn't give up, said it was transferable, yadda yadda yadda....he sat in disbelief.
You are buying the wrong kind of cars if you still get that pushed on you.
That would mean that Toyota is a wrong kind of car. This crap is omnipresent in new car lots in FL due to sweet deal with SET and their "valuable" Toyoguard package ($699 for scotchguard, paint sealant, 1st oil change, car loaner for repairs, and couple of other great things that nobody can live without). As Vdub, said - Florida dealers... Needless to say I would probably never buy a Toyota (well, don't say never - just not in a forseable future, as long as I have enough money to choose what to buy).
You are buying the wrong kind of cars if you still get that pushed on you.
Tell me then whats the right kind of car. I get those sales pitches with every car I buy. Some just ask once and that it, other do really push it hard.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Last time I walked out on a deal was when the F&I guy push an abitration agreement on me. Basically giving up my right to sue and taking anything to abitration. People never agree to this.
The guy actually told me it was the law that they couldn't sell me the car without me agreeing to arbitration.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well, unfortunately, we have no way of comparing buying experiences and money. You guys feel your way is best when you break it down to money vs time. I feel mine is. There is no way to prove right or wrong, better or worse. I don't agree with your methods and you don't agree with mine. End of story.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
High line low volume dealers in general will not push that junk at the F&I office. I know some BMW/mercedes places will but many won't.
We don't push any of that junk on our customers. Our F&I guy does mention extended warranties but normaly only goes into details on them for used Rovers. On the new side people roll out of these cars every 2-3 years so no point in an extended.
He talks about GAP some since like Terry says my cars have the resale value of day old pizza. That is slowly changing though. Most of our customers are either leasing, paying in cash or putting huge amounts of money down though so he picks and chooses when he talks about GAP.
We used to not push Wear care for leaes because we could always wave secuity deposits but now we cannot. If you buy wear care for 500 dollars or so you can avoid the security deposit which could be as much as 1800 dollars on some of our cars. The wear care will cover you for minor dings, scrathes and other stuff too at the end of the lease.
Nothing else is pushed although I think he normaly has people sign a form saying the decline any extra products en mass to cover himself. That way if three years down the road someone that is out of warranty and looking at a 8,000 dollar repair bill can't say they were never offered an extended warranty. Also covers him from upper managment in our dealer network so he can show that yes he is "trying" to sell all of this stuff and people just don't want it.
When you are the only highline store in an auto group it is sometimes hard to make people understand that no one buying these cars is going to get paint sealants or credit life coverage.
Well, unfortunately, we have no way of comparing buying experiences and money.
Well buying experience is totally dependant on the buyer. However money and time are constants. I seriously doubt that me or Socal spend to much more time than someone who goes in offers a price and then leaves if its not met. If the first dealer accepts you might have saved some time, but not much. I would be willing to wager that either me or Socal can negotiate a deal in less time than it takes you to make an offer that is rejected by one dealer, plus the time it takes you to drive to the next and get accepted there.
As for price I would bet the farm that me and Socal will get better prices.
I don't agree with your methods and you don't agree with mine. End of story.
Thats all fine and well, but its a crap shoot if you will save time and you won't save money.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I would still like to hear how the sales people on her are trolling for business. I am not going to let a comment like that just slide by the way side.
As for price I would bet the farm that me and Socal will get better prices.
I would take that bet. But, like I said, we can't compare, unfortunately.
I've tried the negotiation method, back in the old days before all this wonderful information was so easily accessible. So I'm not stranger to the time involved, and I know how much time I save these days.
I have experienced and know both sides of this argument. There is nothing either of you can say that is news to me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Folks, the salespeople who participate in these Forums are well aware of our solicitation policy, and we have very rarely had problems with voluntary compliance. In fact, the only non-compliant salespeople have been the post-and-dash type; not the ones who stick around for longer-term conversation.
Since our Forums audience comes from all around the country and even internationally, there's no way that a salesperson could hope to make any real money by soliciting business off of the handful of members located within reasonable geographic distance - they'd all have to be ready to buy on a continuous basis in order for it to be worth a salesperson's time to participate in the discussions daily.
Let's let this be the end of that line of conversation. If anyone feels that there's a real "trolling for business" issue with another member, the way to handle it is by contacting a host via e-mail rather than making accusations within the discussions. Thanks!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
High line low volume dealers in general will not push that junk at the F&I office.
Thats fine for the forum readers who buy at high line low volume dealers, all both of them. But what about the other 99.99999% of those here that will be buying Toyotas, Dodge, Chevys, Honda and the like? Most of them will push that junk, thats where money is made for them.
We don't push any of that junk on our customers.
Yes but most people don't have the money or have to much sense to buy a Rover. Again the vast majority of cars are bought at the Ford, Nissan, VW, and similar dealers.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I can not speak for everyone, but I really appreciate the insight guys like you, jurman, Terry, Car_man, mackabee, and others who I can't remember their handles, *nodnod* offer to the posters on this board.
Your comments are invaluable and some of you have gone the extra effort and offered me tips on how to get the best deal. I am sure you extend this to others as well.
So, when other see some one throw out the trolling line *eyeroll* most of us take it for what its worth and I would not let it get to you.
The world is filled with idiots and shallow people and the internet offers a stage in which they can attempt to flourish.
Thanks for you postings, and about the rant...stick to decaf today *snicker*
socala, have enjoyed your "many" posts on time pressure in negotiations, as well as holdback. Since part of this discussion is titled, "Sucess Stories" ...would be interested in reading a personal account of one of your more interesting vehicle purchases, which incorporate some of the negotiating methods/theory you have written about.
It is unfortunate that most of the negotiating skills we discuss are in the "on the floor" type.
What if we pick a certain vehicle. Then we give bobst, socala and the other guy - or anyone else for that matter.
Then give each person 3 days to come back and show us the best price they can negotiate. It doesnt matter if they do it through the internet, phone, or in person.
But the person who can come back with the best "verifiable" quote wins. *nodnod*
So, you may ask? *eyebrow-raise*
Will this solve anything? No, but its better than keeping this i can do it better than you discussion going for another 3-4 days *eyeroll*
Are the geographic challenges? Sure, but that is for each participant to overcome. *aha*
In November 2003 I created a topic "Bobst buys a new car" (or something like that) describing how we purchased our Acura RSX, but I can't find it in the archives.
Comments
No words were ever spoken that were more false.
If you did your homework, then you know what you should offer and that's it.
If you do your homework you would know that there are to many variables that will effect prices of certain commodities over a very short time. Doing your homework may or may not get you into the ball park. Getting a good price most likely will require some negotiation.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There's actually no contradiction whatsoever. Research is helpful, and I strongly encourage it, but it doesn't tell you everything that would help you to know what you need to know.
You are assuming that there is one "Magic Price" that is the absolute lowest that everyone uniformly accepts, which is rarely the case, particularly with products such as cars where the actual sales prices end up scattered across a wide range.
You don't seem to realize that the "best price" can change based upon a whole variety of factors, some of which are not obvious to you or within your control, and is affected by how you conduct yourself and the other parties' specific needs. Negotiations are not just about price, they are also shaped by time pressures and by the desire for parties to satisfy other needs, aside from price. If you assume that the dealer is interested only in your purchase price and nothing else, then you will miss a vital part of what the whole negotiation process is all about, and will probably overpay.
This link might help to provide a bit of perspective: "Ask for More Than You Expect To Get"
You should negotiate the car's price seperately from the rebate. For example, if you are going to buy the car at $200 above invoice, and there is a $1,000 rebate, then you should end up with the car at $800 below invoice. ($200-1,000= -800.)
No contradiction involved. What do you research, most people here research invoice price, holdback and the like. All of that will give you a price based on that information. Now the open market may or may not support that figure. If it does come close to what the market is bearing than fine, if not the dealer will be laughing at you either as you walk out the door offering $18,000 on a car they can't keep in stock at $20,000 or on their way to the bank as you paid $18,000 for a car they cant sell at $17,000.
Now with regard to the actual selling price of a car you have to look at a car as another commodity, its price will fluxuate over time. Sometimes greatly over a very short time.
you can research to the cows come home, if its wrong or out dated its no good.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Also, the little bit of variable you are sometimes referring to that is outside of invoice, holdback, rebates, bonus certificates, etc. IS in fact VERY little money. SO little that its not worth the webspace we are taking up talking about it. You somehow think there is a mystery $1,000 lying around on a car. Its simply not true. Is it possible the owner had a good day at the track and can split $50 with you? Sure! If yer after it, go for it.
Me? I'd prefer not to save $25 negotiating while I pay someone $50 to mow my lawn because I was too occupied staring across the table at a salesperson.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Can you elaborate on this? Why do you think so? Why do you think it is so? Is it a known fact? Quite intriguing.
When I hear people saying $300 is "excessive" and "ridiculous", I always think "boy, come to our Tampa Bay friendly Toyota dealers and get car "at invoice" plus of course $699 dealer's fee". Like I said before, over time I got used to $300 as "normal" (I take then a correction for that in the price), but $699 doc fee still blows my mind - why not $1099 or better $2599?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Florida dealers run the jickiest ads, and the customers leave on 50cents worth of payment.
But there may be some additional incentives that you may not know about, i.e. the extra sales commission available to the salesperson for that car on the lot that hasn't moved for two months. You also don't know whether the sales manager feels compelled to hit a number that he didn't last month, or if the salesman has a date that he's going to miss if he doesn't close this deal with you right this moment, or whatever other factors might affect your price.
And you don't really know what other people are paying, or whether the prices that they are paying reflect what you personally need to pay, at this given moment on this given day with your set of negotiation skills and the sales team that is working your deal.
Again, there is no Magic Price, and the deal isn't just about price. Research how negotiation works, such as with that link above, and you'll see what I mean.
You are missing a few valid points.
1.) No research is accurate unless it can be measured against results. In other words you only know if your research is accurate if you try but fail to get a better price. You have to haggle to prove your research.
and
2.) Research is only accurate for the time period that the information was created. Things change over time and very rapidly this day and age. Whats true for last week might not hold up for next week.
Also, the little bit of variable you are sometimes referring to that is outside of invoice, holdback, rebates, bonus certificates, etc. IS in fact VERY little money.
You forget the one variable that truely matters, the market place can drive up or down the price of a car a great deal. PT Cruisers used to go for thousands over sticker, they now go for a few hundred over invoice. Granted it took a while for that to happen but other things do work at a faster pace.
You somehow think there is a mystery $1,000 lying around on a car.
No I do not think that. But I do know that for most makes the price can vary hundreds if not more from one day to the next from one person to the next. Two people at the same dealer at the same time buying Model 'X' with option package 'Y'. One will pay far more than the other, which one will you be?
Me? I'd prefer not to save $25 negotiating while I pay someone $50 to mow my lawn because I was too occupied staring across the table at a salesperson.
I agree, but I would prefer to save a few hundred with a little more effort.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Last weekend, I accepted an offer that was about 200 less than what it should have sold for, but I had a wedding I had to be at, and as it was I was 2 hours late. But saving 1000s under circumstances like that. Probably not.
These sorts of issues and pressures are not limited to car sales. I've done deals outside of car sales where I left money on the table for a variety of reasons, usually because it was expedient (i.e. I could use the transaction to hit a number that I needed to hit, or I just wanted/needed to put that particular deal behind me and move on), or the incentives weren't there (i.e. if I do X for another $10,000, but only 5% of that amount flows to my company or myself, I might let it slide because the small portion that inures to us/me isn't worth my additional effort.) Sometimes, we just needed the money, and a bird in hand was better than another bird that might not fly in anytime soon.
I had previously dealt with these people, and I told them that I would be available ONLY until 3pm, that I had to be at a wedding at 4pm that My fiance was the best man in. They showed up at 2pm, drove 3 cars 2 times each, and grinded me for about 2 hours. After I spent 3 hours with them they were going to leave over 200 dollars. My manager did not want to do the deal, but I would be damned if I missed the wedding and did not sell a car. So he felt bad for me and took the deal. I did not leave the dealership until 630 and they wanted to make sure I could get them out in time for their 7pm reservation at Ruth Chris steakhouse. I missed the wedding, and the reception. But hey I sold a car and the commision did not even pay for the outfit that I didnt have to wear that was non-returnable.
Ouch, tough deal. Actually, that's a good lesson about the issues re: the impact of time pressures, because you made the error of giving to the other party the knowledge of your time constraints, while receiving nothing in return, and they then used that knowledge to their benefit and against your position.
I think they used an extreme version of what I'm talking about. I'd bet that had they gamed it a bit differently, they could have gotten that same price, but still gotten you to your wedding on time, or almost on time.
Had I been in your position, I would have probably told them that you were leaving at noon for some reason or another. With that information, they would have probably shown up at 11am, I'd bet that their timing was deliberate.
Later, after helping them for an hour or so, you could have "delayed your event for their convenience", which sends them the message that they miscalculated your time pressures (which is a bit deflating for them -- the game didn't go for them as planned). Plus, now they owe you a "favor" that you can toss back at them later during the negotiations as you push it to a close.
Here's a guess -- I'll bet that the Ruth Chris thing was a ploy, too. Once they had gamed you into the discount, they then used their time constraint as a lever against you to keep you from pulling it off the table, and limiting the time that the F&I guy had to move the price back up. Not sure if they got their $200 worth, but overall, they sound like decent negotiators when viewed in the context of a win-lose transaction. (Not the way to go for a win-win, though, if that was the objective.)
Did you think the guy could get prime? I had to check it out. 10.443%
And after only 3 years of payments equaling $81,000 he will still be about 25K in the hole assuming the A8 has a 55% residual at that point in time. Although my guess is it will be time for him to "upgrade" in two years.
I just love spending with reckless abandon.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Or is there "always" a bank that will give you 840 months and double digit interest rates to make the deal work?
I had a doctor client who had two cars, one leased (Lincoln) and one loaned (Porsche) total monthly payments about $5,500 *gack*
Doctors are a strange breed, banks love to loan them money, and some of the best tax court cases involve Doctor investment schemes. And I have found most are so leveraged its almost comical. I was just curious how they buy cars since there is so much keep up with the jones in that industry ill bet you can create options and tack on $$$ and tell them no one else has this!! *snicker*
I really do not think what they did was a ploy, I just think they were inconsiderate. Like I said it is what it is. If I start putting that much thought into every car deal and every customer, I would go nuts and then have to go on Klonopin or something.
I have enough control of my deals where I know what is going to happen in the box. A deal is a deal and I would never bump the price in the box. That is old school domestic store tactics. My customers were not going anywhere. They got a good deal, and they were not about to drive back to waco in their avalon with 170k miles on it. They were willing to forgo a pre dinner cocktail to get this car.
They were good negotiators, they had a price in mind and we met in the middle everyone was happy.
Ask where their current car is financed. - if its americredit or onyx credit is questionable.
If they ask up front for a credit app, most likely there are issues.
The worse the credit, the shorter the term and the newer the car needs to be financed.
No but I would think he could get better that 10.44%
I just love spending with reckless abandon.
Some people just have more cash than sense.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I wonder how many deals fall apart because od crap pulled with the F&I guy. I would say that more than half the time I walked out was due to the F&I guy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Did you see the article in the Tribune about the devices the used car lots use for sub-prime lenders?
You buy a car and there is a device mounted on your dash and you have to enter in a code in order for the car to start. The code expires after 30 days and when you bring in your next payment, the used car dealer gives you the new code.
So talk about both end of the spectrums, one guy paying $2,250 a month to keep an image and another having to make sure they get to the dealer on time so the car still runs.
Side note update: I delivered my Acura to the guy from Ohio today. He dropped off his old beat up van and drove of in a fantastic TL with navigation.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Two cars ago, I had to sit and sign "waivers" declining window etching, etc...finally I blew up and told the guy if i have to sign another fricking denial form I am out of here.
When I leased the Pilot, I did the final inspection of the car then went right in to F&I, and spent all of 5 minutes. Signed the leased, signed the odometer statement and he asked if i had any Qs and told me to enjoy the car.
My favorite story was that of a co-worker who years ago, executed a 3 year lease and afterwards the F&I made the hard push for the extended warranty. F&I wouldn't give up, said it was transferable, yadda yadda yadda....he sat in disbelief.
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That would mean that Toyota is a wrong kind of car. This crap is omnipresent in new car lots in FL due to sweet deal with SET and their "valuable" Toyoguard package ($699 for scotchguard, paint sealant, 1st oil change, car loaner for repairs, and couple of other great things that nobody can live without). As Vdub, said - Florida dealers... Needless to say I would probably never buy a Toyota (well, don't say never - just not in a forseable future, as long as I have enough money to choose what to buy).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Tell me then whats the right kind of car. I get those sales pitches with every car I buy. Some just ask once and that it, other do really push it hard.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The guy actually told me it was the law that they couldn't sell me the car without me agreeing to arbitration.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
We don't push any of that junk on our customers. Our F&I guy does mention extended warranties but normaly only goes into details on them for used Rovers. On the new side people roll out of these cars every 2-3 years so no point in an extended.
He talks about GAP some since like Terry says my cars have the resale value of day old pizza. That is slowly changing though. Most of our customers are either leasing, paying in cash or putting huge amounts of money down though so he picks and chooses when he talks about GAP.
We used to not push Wear care for leaes because we could always wave secuity deposits but now we cannot. If you buy wear care for 500 dollars or so you can avoid the security deposit which could be as much as 1800 dollars on some of our cars. The wear care will cover you for minor dings, scrathes and other stuff too at the end of the lease.
Nothing else is pushed although I think he normaly has people sign a form saying the decline any extra products en mass to cover himself. That way if three years down the road someone that is out of warranty and looking at a 8,000 dollar repair bill can't say they were never offered an extended warranty. Also covers him from upper managment in our dealer network so he can show that yes he is "trying" to sell all of this stuff and people just don't want it.
When you are the only highline store in an auto group it is sometimes hard to make people understand that no one buying these cars is going to get paint sealants or credit life coverage.
Well buying experience is totally dependant on the buyer. However money and time are constants. I seriously doubt that me or Socal spend to much more time than someone who goes in offers a price and then leaves if its not met. If the first dealer accepts you might have saved some time, but not much. I would be willing to wager that either me or Socal can negotiate a deal in less time than it takes you to make an offer that is rejected by one dealer, plus the time it takes you to drive to the next and get accepted there.
As for price I would bet the farm that me and Socal will get better prices.
I don't agree with your methods and you don't agree with mine. End of story.
Thats all fine and well, but its a crap shoot if you will save time and you won't save money.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I would take that bet. But, like I said, we can't compare, unfortunately.
I've tried the negotiation method, back in the old days before all this wonderful information was so easily accessible. So I'm not stranger to the time involved, and I know how much time I save these days.
I have experienced and know both sides of this argument. There is nothing either of you can say that is news to me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Since our Forums audience comes from all around the country and even internationally, there's no way that a salesperson could hope to make any real money by soliciting business off of the handful of members located within reasonable geographic distance - they'd all have to be ready to buy on a continuous basis in order for it to be worth a salesperson's time to participate in the discussions daily.
Let's let this be the end of that line of conversation. If anyone feels that there's a real "trolling for business" issue with another member, the way to handle it is by contacting a host via e-mail rather than making accusations within the discussions. Thanks!
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Thats fine for the forum readers who buy at high line low volume dealers, all both of them. But what about the other 99.99999% of those here that will be buying Toyotas, Dodge, Chevys, Honda and the like? Most of them will push that junk, thats where money is made for them.
We don't push any of that junk on our customers.
Yes but most people don't have the money or have to much sense to buy a Rover. Again the vast majority of cars are bought at the Ford, Nissan, VW, and similar dealers.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I can not speak for everyone, but I really appreciate the insight guys like you, jurman, Terry, Car_man, mackabee, and others who I can't remember their handles, *nodnod* offer to the posters on this board.
Your comments are invaluable and some of you have gone the extra effort and offered me tips on how to get the best deal. I am sure you extend this to others as well.
So, when other see some one throw out the trolling line *eyeroll* most of us take it for what its worth and I would not let it get to you.
The world is filled with idiots and shallow people and the internet offers a stage in which they can attempt to flourish.
Thanks for you postings, and about the rant...stick to decaf today *snicker*
I think we do it our way because we enjoy it. Some people enjoy negotiating. Others of us don't, so we have a method which avoids negotiating.
Maybe when people read our posts they can find a way to make car-buying more enjoyable. That's why I think all of our posts are very worthwhile.
What if we pick a certain vehicle. Then we give bobst, socala and the other guy - or anyone else for that matter.
Then give each person 3 days to come back and show us the best price they can negotiate. It doesnt matter if they do it through the internet, phone, or in person.
But the person who can come back with the best "verifiable" quote wins. *nodnod*
So, you may ask? *eyebrow-raise*
Will this solve anything? No, but its better than keeping this i can do it better than you discussion going for another 3-4 days *eyeroll*
Are the geographic challenges? Sure, but that is for each participant to overcome. *aha*
So whose in? *headtilt*
In November 2003 I created a topic "Bobst buys a new car" (or something like that) describing how we purchased our Acura RSX, but I can't find it in the archives.