snake....not true. Ford dealers can accept or deny X plan pricing on any car, for any customer, at any time.
Not according to my sources, they have to accept the X plan in whole or not at all. Now Ford can exclude cars from the X plan and currently does. But if Ford has the car on the X plan and the dealer honors the X plan it must honor it on that car for that customer.
I could have bought a Crown Vic, from any of them, for X plan, less rebates, all day, every day.
Ah no, the X plan only allows you to buy two cars a year.
Having a relationship with my dealership got me the x plan pricing on that Mustang GT.
And I could have gotten it right behind you, or anyone with an approved X plan PIN number. I know this because I asked. :P
I just wanted to add a few experiences that have worked well for me,
OK But you gave one example that worked only because you qualified for the X plan.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
dino....last year when all the domestics (lead by GM) were offering employee pricing for everyone, even those had some "fine print" qualifiers that stated (in general) the pricing scheme was up to the dealer to accept or reject. Of course, there were also models that were excluded.....the Corvette comes to mind. For Ford, I think it was the F250 duelie.
Someone mentioned that you have to be friends with the dealer owners to get deals I posted about. Maybe....maybe not. I know whenever I get one of those recorded messages from the owner, GM or SM of a dealership thanking me for stopping by, or buying a car from them, or having service work done, they usually end the message with "....if there's anything I can personally do for you, please don't hesitate to contact me". Know what? I do. I call them and tell them of my experiences at their dealership, what I thought of their selection, how I was treated, etc. They're always appreciative of the feedback.
For me, I now have a ownership/management contact with whom I can recruit help from when I'm in the market.
In my area, the Lexus dealership had a big party for the rollout of their new IS/ES series a couple of weeks ago. They were having a cocktail party. I'm sure it was a blanket e-mail, but just from giving them my e-mail address at the one yearly car show in my 'burg, I got an invite. I went. I showed up for about 30 minutes after work. Ate their caviar and pate. Drank their champaign. Got to take a brief test drive in their new cars. And, met the GM, who gave me his business card telling me to call him if I'm in the market for a Lexus. I'm not, but if I ever am, he'll be the 1st person I'll call.
snake....not to get into an argument, but your sources are wrong about Ford's x-plan. It's up to the dealer whether they accept on any, or no, model.....to all people, a few people or none. X plan rules dont' stipulate it's "All or None".
You're right about only being able to buy 2 Ford vehicles per year on X plan, though. Plus, I have to keep it at least 6 months as part of the terms of the agreement.
I gave other examples for working with trustworthy dealers that I had relationships with.....one with Toyota.....one with BMW.
There are lots more, but I think most get the picture.
My understanding was (I read it somewhere in Edmunds at the time) that they could then take the whole program or leave it, not cherry pick models or customers. As I said, that was during the last summer "for everyone". Your right, the programs did not include all vehicles, like 300, Magnum, or medium duty trucks, IIRC.
For ongoing employee/supplier programs they can be more selective, I think so relationship will probably help one if the car is eligible for the program but "hot" - not so many for Big 2,5 anyway, but that Mustang (esp. GT) does come in mind.
How to get the best deal. I think all you need to do is know what price dealers are willing to sell at, be willing to buy, and show a willingness to go elsewhere
Sounds alot like the bobst method of buying.
Well what exactly is the bobst method of buying. If its offering a price and then leaving when its rejected, I think that would actually work. I'd call getting up and leaving a method of fighting though.
If you show no inclination at all to argue or even discuss, what is the dealer to do. They can't physically hold you down. If you put them in a position to either take your offer, or say goodbye, then they have to make a choice. I have never been to a dealer that will turn away a profitable offer and say goodbye to the customer. They may let you walk to your car, they may even let you drive off the lot before calling your cell phone, but I don't see how they would turn away a price they desire to sell at. If the offer is a deal that I can do, then I'm not letting you go home without accepting your offer. I may try and get a better offer out of you, but I will not let you leave without purchasing.
I think the real problem with the method is that you may be paying too much. Part of negotiating is reading what the dealer is doing. If you don't do this you may pay too much.
I looked through the fordpatner site and they made no mention that the dealer may refuse a deal. Only that their participation in the program as a whole is voluntary. It also said that the dealer cannot add on any additional fees including Doc fees.
The site also said that you are obligated to inform the dealer from the start that you are eligible for the X plan otherwise you put your eligibility in jeopardy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Riship also noted that the buyer has to be willing to fight a bit to get that low-price deal
a real live buyer getting up and heading for the door is a passive form of arguing. Getting up shifts the entire balance of control. I would expect you to know this...you have the answers for everything else.
I notice a bit of resentment with that last answer...
Walking out is fine -- I've done it myself -- but it will yield better results if it is not done too soon after the interaction with the sales team has begun. Bob's method involves walking after a very short exchange, so the dealer has contributed very little to the sales process at that stage, and therefore has very little to lose by letting him go. The time and brain damage invested by the seller effectively creates a form of buy-in into the deal and fuels the motivation to close it, even if the profit is minimal.
Obviously, the seller has to feel that he has something to lose by letting you go, and creating a time investment gives him something to lose, i.e. a desire to recoup the fruits of invested effort. It also allows the dealership to learn something about you, namely that you are an educated, informed buyer with negotation skills that are strong enough to get that deal from someone else, which will motivate him to close you before someone else gets the chance.
Riship has touched on one of the basic disadvantages of Bob's method, namely that Bob is shutting himself off from the information gathering that could help the customer to find the lowest price point. You can and should do a lot of research, but the research may or may not prove to be accurate. If used correctly, the negotiation process should provide another feedback mechanism that gets you closer to the bottom of the range.
By the way, a lot of these are just generic negotiation methods that apply to all types of transactions, not just car sales. Car sales have some specific quirks, but for the most part, these are tried-and-true methods that work for many types of situations.
snake....straight out of the Ts & Cs of the Ford X plan....
Current model and prior model year vehicles sold in the United States (including Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo, and Mazda*), equipped with any regular production optional equipment, may be purchased or leased each calendar year. Vans and light trucks are available only through E/F-350 Series (see Vehicles & Pricing section for the complete list of vehicles available).
*Eligible X Plan buyers may purchase Mazda Products under the Mazda Purchase ("S") Plan at participating Mazda dealerships.
· New prior model year vehicles may be purchased or leased from dealer stock only up to the date announced by the Company (usually March 31 of the current year).
· Vehicles may be ordered from production or may be selected from the inventory of the dealership, if the dealer agrees.Dealers are not required to participate, but if they do, they must be an authorized Ford Motor Company dealer for the product sold and agree to abide by the New Vehicle Purchase Plan guidelines set forth in this document.
I won't post the entire plan's Ts & Cs, but the above is the part that pertains to this discussion. Nowhere in the X plan does it say that a dealer has to offer all qualifying vehicles, to all people who are eligible, at the x plan price.
That was certainly the case last year with Mustangs.
audia....I bought a Mustang for myself and helped my sister on another (after I bought mine). She lives in another city. So, she was traipsing around to a half dozen different dealers trying to get a deal on a convertible (again, when they were hotter than firecrackers). I had an X plan pin, but no dealer in her city would honor it. All I spoke to said that they'd honor the x plan on any other model on their lot, however.
For 7 months, my Mustang was the only X plan Mustang GT they sold....the rest were at MSRP.
So, how many cars do you need to buy before you can "build a relationship" with your salesman or dealership? Or is that something that a dealership can forge through customer programs and such.
How many dealerships, outside of perhaps some of the luxury/high-end models try to keep an active relationship with people who buy from them?
....Mr. Rau, a 31-year-old Minneapolis lawyer, has a fairly straightforward approach to evaluating airport security procedures. "I'll give praise where it's due, but not where it's not," Mr. Rau said.
Praise is due to the screeners in Minnesota, he said. But not for the screeners at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport, who recently confiscated his car key as a prohibited item.
"I'm leaving Dallas on a Sunday and at security it's the usual stuff - shoes off, laptop out. My carry-on bag goes through the X-ray machine and I hear the infamous 'bag check!' " Mr. Rau recalled.
Here we go, he thought. "A screener says, 'Sir, is this your bag?' And I say, 'Yeah, and I need a private room if you're going to go through it,' " he recalled telling the screener.
Mr. Rau explained: "As an attorney, I carry documents, and because of the nature of what I do - I do intellectual property law - opening them up in a public place could have repercussions for myself or for my clients."
He was told private rooms were for personal screening, not for screening bags. That was not the case in Minneapolis, on the rare occasions when Mr. Rau said he was randomly selected for a secondary screening. "In Minneapolis, if you ask, they always give you a private room and they're nice about it," he said.
At the Dallas checkpoint, the contents of his bag were dumped on the table. "They pull out my car key," he said.
"What's this?" an inspector asked.
"My car key," Mr. Rau said.
Mr. Rau drives an Audi. Audis now come with stylish ignition keys designed to house the key inside a holder, preventing rips and wear on pocket liners. You push a button on a flat two-inch shaft and the key slides out.
As he demonstrated it, Mr. Rau could see the word forming in the minds of the screeners, now three, on his case: switchblade.
"Now the bells are ringing," he said. After running the key through the X-ray machine three times, the security committee reached a conclusion. "Well, sir, that's a switchblade style, and that's a prohibited item," Mr. Rau said he was told. "We're going to have to confiscate that."
Paperwork, of course, was required. His driver's license and other identification papers were photocopied.
"And of course, I didn't have my car keys," he said. Luckily, he keeps a spare in a little magnetized box under his car. But, it cost $300 to replace the key at the dealer, who must add a computer code for a specific car.
He was carrying his house key at the time. In comparison with the flat Audi key, "the house key looks like a saw blade," said Mr. Rau, who first described the incident anonymously on www.flyertalk.com, a frequent-flier forum.
On its Web site, www.tsa.gov, the Transportation Security Administration has posted a list of items you are not permitted to take on an airplane, in both checked bags and carry-ons. But the list is not "intended to be all-inclusive and is updated as necessary," the T.S.A. says, adding, "To ensure everybody's security, the screener may determine that an item not on this chart is prohibited."
Mr. Rau said, "That is the ultimate out - it's totally at their discretion."
Mr. Raus said of his Dallas-Fort Worth experience: "They were not ultra-rude about it. But you ever get the feeling you're just banging your head against a wall?"
Yes, we get that feeling frequently, his fellow business travelers will agree. Last week, the Business Travel Coalition, in a survey of both individual travelers and corporate travel managers, found that "inconsistency among airports was the No. 1 most troubling aspect of the airport security process."
That survey, which also elicited opinions about screening in general and about a proposed registered-traveler program that would expedite screening for those who registered personal information and possibly fingerprints in advance, is available at http://btcweb.biz.
Incidentally, it is not clear to me yet whether other Audi drivers have had ignition keys confiscated at other airports. Telephone calls seeking comment from a spokeswoman at Audi of America headquarters in Auburn Hills, Mich., were not returned.
One of my assistants in this forum once found a list of all of the discussions about my sad key story.
In short, I told the heart-rendering story about buying our 1999 Honda. We made our offer that stated in writing that we wanted two additional keys. Just before we were going to write the check, they told us the new keys would only work in the door but not the ignition. It would cost more to have the keys set so they would work in the ignition.
I guess the sales manager thought we just wanted to open the door and sit in the car instead of driving it.
Of course, we immediately got up to leave. They quickly changed their mind and gave us the keys we wanted. As usual, sales people hate to see money walking out the door.
We later got the satisfaction of giving them several zeros on the CSI survey.
By the way, the car was great, and our daughter is still driving it.
One more thing - the sales manager knew my wife because she worked at the school which his children attended. Sure didn't stop him from trying to cheat us, did it? So much for trusting a sales person you know personally.
bobst.....again, that's why I work with people I trust. I won't buy from someone I don't trust....or establish a business relationship (or any other relationship for that matter).
tg.....it's easier to set up a personal relationship with the luxury brands because they do more in the way of "special events" to get people in their doors. The more common brands usually rely on newspaper advertising to spend their marketing dollars.
In my household, we've got 3 cars....my son has a Hyundai and I have an Acura and a Toyota. I suppose one can say the Acura is a lux brand, and they do have "special events" to go meet and greet management or look at their new models. But, whenever my son goes to get an oil change on his Hyundai (with their discount coupons), he always gets a follow-up phone call (pre-recorded) from their GM thanking him for the service business and an invite to call him for whatever reason. I always urge him to do so.
Same way with my 4Runner. I always get the obligatory pre-recorded phone call asking me to call the Toyota dealership's GM (owner's daughter) if they can help in any way. I call them maybe once/year just to give my feedback about my dealership or service experience. They're always thankful I do.
Sometimes, if they see me in the service waiting room, they'll ask me if everything's "up-to-snuff" with my car and/or service. Sometimes they take me to their office and give me promotional stuff that Toyota or Acura hands out. Nothing big....coffee cups, key fobs, etc. I don't have the Mustang any longer, but whenever I took it in for an oil change, I would go to the SM at the Ford dealership and ask for a free oil change coupon. He never turned me down.
They value their relationships with their customers and I value their's.
I think if you asked isellhondas, he'd agree that the vast majority of the business he does is based on relationships and recommendations of his past customers.
socal.....the sad part of that story is that it's so true these days.
Settting aside the security issue, anyone who travels much has some sort of horror story with airport security. Training of those security folks is woeful. I do get the feeling that they are one step removed from saying "sir, you want fries with that?"
I'm in some airport, somewhere about 3 times per month. By far, security at DFW and also O'Hare are the worst.
They value their relationships with their customers..
Doubtful. What they value is their relationship with the customers money. They're in the business to make money...not relationships. You give them a lot of money when buying multiple vehilces and with their service center. They throw you a few bones(free oil change, car wash, key fob) to keep you happy...which is fine for you.
But again...you apparently refuse to grasp the notion that the vast majority of people will not be in a situation to where they can "form" a "trusting relationship" with a dealership. Maybe, the service advisor when they go in to get an oil change 3 times a year. If there is anyones trust I would want it would be his and the mechanics.
A relationship between the dealership and the customer benefits the dealer far more than the customer. The dealership gets sales from referrals and income from servicing the car. In return the customer saves a minimal amount of money.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No not like any other business. I have a great relationship with the lady who cuts my hair. Yes she makes money off of that but I get great service, she knows how I like my hair cut and I get a sizable benefit for the cost. Plus I get my hair cut at least 100 times more often than I buy a car.
I have a great relationship with my dry cleaner. Yes he makes money from my business but I get my suits cleaned faster with no extra charge and I get to spend time in one of the best stocked whiskey bars in the country.
I have a great relationship with my mechanic. Yes he makes money off of me but he treats me well. Reasonable rates, gets me done quickly and lets me know where I can get the work done at a lesser price.
My point is that with a business I use several times a year I can receive better service and get better utility than I can at a business I may use two or three times a decade.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think this horse has beaten to death....everyone has their side of things and NOBODY is going to change their minds..... Jipster,socala and snakeweasel are all right about everything and everyone else is wrong.....so lets move on....
The hide is so tanned that I think I'll make myself a dapper pair of dress shoes & a matching purse
Let's move on, because it's such a subjective issue and no one appears to be changing his/her mind.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Let's not be ridiculous - let's move on from the "relationship with a salesperson: valuable or not" track and back on to other purchasing strategies. If you don't have anything to add to that, you're welcome to simply read
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Oh... we've whipped the poor thing quite severely, but not beaten it to death. I find this "relationship" business a very interesting topic...that probably still has some life to it. And since Audia8q wrote that the Jipster is "always" right, and I believe him, then perhaps we should continue.
For the new car invoice, I'd bring either KBB or Edmunds. They should both be the same, anyway.
For the used car, you can bring them all, or just bring the one that favors your position most. (Of course, the dealer will use whatever favors his side most, but that's how the game is played.)
I would also bring a calculator. If you are borrowing funds, bring a financial calculator or else bring financing tables so that you can calculate monthly payments on the fly. (Before going into the dealership, you should also run numbers so that you have an idea of what kind of terms and payments you expect, and the amount that you expect to borrow.)
I have no doubt that your relationships have paid off for you...some don't want relationships and it works for them. Fine. Some parts of the country sell cars the stereotypical way and a relationship would be difficult. Turn over is the biggest speed bump to relationship sales. OTOH some parts of the country are not stereotypical. Even the worst markets have a few dealers that operate with long term relationships in mind. I'm very visible at our dealerships...so I get to know alot of our regular customers. These folks do get easier and better deals that the guy who walks in off the street. Quite simply it costs less to keep a current customer with a low profit sale than going after new customers. So it makes sense to reward current customers. Additionally, current customers are also the best form of advertising...The other side of this is understandable. If the local dealer turns over help and runs a crappy operation the consumer can't build a relationship.
What should I have in my car buying folder (or do I even need one)? I was going to review the dealership's online inventory and print out a TMV/Invoice thing for each car I like. I'd also include a TMV/KBB/NADA paper for the car I'm trading in. That sound good? Do you guys do this?
A few things, first is you can check the dealers online inventory but inventories change over time. You might see a car thats in their inventory thats is currently being driven off the lot by its new owner. It may take some time for it to come off inventory. It could also be sold between the time you saw it online and by the time you talk to the dealer. Plus inventory does come in too and those cars might not be online.
Secondly unless you have several different cars you are looking at you really don't need any printouts. It should be easy to know the invoice price of the model, trim and options you want. Just remember that an additional option that you don't want doesn't add value to the car as far as you're concerned.
Finally TMV/KBB/NADA is a good reference but is oft times wrong. If you have a carmax nearby go to them and they will give you a quote. If the dealer doesn't come close take it to carmax.
I would also give your current car a good detail, a clean car could get you much more in a trade in.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you can not get recent auction data for your car, (which you probably can not) If the KBB number or Edmunds number is much higher than the trade offer, ask where they are gettting the figure. In our defense, depending on the vehicle you are trading in, the book numbers are off a little to what the actual real life values due to the recent fuel prices. But ask if they have auction data to support their number. That will throw them for a loop.
CarMax, is not all it used to be, They have been getting greedy and Most of my customers get a better trade number from us, then what they offer. So do not even waste your time.
kirstie.....now you're going to have some animal rights activists after you....LOL!
audia...I know you're a dealer principle (right?). I do agree. Those churn & burn places aren't the ones you want to try to establish a relationship with. Plus, I don't find those to be all that trustworthy, anyway.
Just curious though....do you find that the sales staff that is the most successful establish relationships with their clients/customers? Have you ever figured out what percentage of repeat business makes up your total sales?
I'm not in sales, but from what I've read here and elsewhere, the people who stay in the car business the longest seem to be the ones who have a steady stream of referrals and repeat business. The only way to do that is to establish themselves as trustworthy business people. Or, am I all wrong?
do you find that the sales staff that is the most successful establish relationships with their clients/customers?
The only way to do that is to establish themselves as trustworthy business people. Or, am I all wrong?
I think your right on track but it depends on your definition of success...I have known salespeople who didn't need any relationships and could sell anything to anyone. These guys work the hardest and often make the most money...but over time they get burned out and don't last more than a couple, few years. OTOH, somebody who has managed to stay put and work at one dealership for a long time usually doenst have to take 'ups' off the salesfloor...they enjoy most sales from repeats and referrals. This makes life alot easier and the income usually follows....People generally prefer to do business with people they know.
We bought a Mazda 5 at Congressional Motors (in Rockville MD) 5 days ago & I have not been able to locate the 260.00 "Wash. DC assessment fee" (mentioned on the dealer invoice) in the DC code. Because our bookstore used to be located in DC, I was semi-understanding of this fee at purchase (DC gets creative re: generating revenue) since Congressional might have been a DC corp. But I now think it is a bogus fee and have located Congressional in the MD state corporate charter database. Though I doubt I have any, ideas about recourse are welcome...
Re: relationships, for 15 years we've owned an independent bookstore and watched as bookstores closed around us in one of the country's best and most competitive book markets. Relationships with--authors, sales reps, publicists, vendors, but first and foremost--our customers are why we are still around.
Providing superb customer service is our only way to compete with the chains. We provide an excellent selection of books and...a spot of warmth, humor & community. Our customers write me emails from abroad, send me photos of kids & grandkids and buy me ice cream. They even organized a potluck goodbye party when we moved the store. BUT they do this because we have earned their loyalty by going well beyond the basic level of customer service. One customer read at the Library of Congress recently, I did the postcard for the event. We were not selling the books, but LOC was not on top of promotion and I wanted him to have a successful event.
Not surprisingly, my entire family looks for that level of service and has developed relationships with other small businesses. However, haircuts, food to go, farmers markets and so on are a bit different than a dealership. I have high expectations of the businesses I give my bit of money to. But I think dealerships are in a different category for my family.
Plus since we have bad car karma, I always feel we are buying another moving target. The car we bought replaced a totaled Saturn (bought when a 65 year old maple fell on our Toyota and so on).
We bought a Mazda 5 at Congressional Motors (in Rockville MD) 5 days ago & I have not been able to locate the 260.00 "Wash. DC assessment fee"
Is this a regional advertising fee? Those do end up on the invoice that is shown to the customer.
The advertising fee is debatable. Edmunds would tell you to pay it; Consumer Reports would tell you that its legitimacy varies. I would say that everything is negotiable, and there's no reason why you, the buyer, should treat it as a sacred cow, whether or not it is "legitimate." If the seller wants to collect it, let him try to fight for it.
Comments
Not according to my sources, they have to accept the X plan in whole or not at all. Now Ford can exclude cars from the X plan and currently does. But if Ford has the car on the X plan and the dealer honors the X plan it must honor it on that car for that customer.
I could have bought a Crown Vic, from any of them, for X plan, less rebates, all day, every day.
Ah no, the X plan only allows you to buy two cars a year.
Having a relationship with my dealership got me the x plan pricing on that Mustang GT.
And I could have gotten it right behind you, or anyone with an approved X plan PIN number. I know this because I asked. :P
I just wanted to add a few experiences that have worked well for me,
OK But you gave one example that worked only because you qualified for the X plan.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Someone mentioned that you have to be friends with the dealer owners to get deals I posted about. Maybe....maybe not. I know whenever I get one of those recorded messages from the owner, GM or SM of a dealership thanking me for stopping by, or buying a car from them, or having service work done, they usually end the message with "....if there's anything I can personally do for you, please don't hesitate to contact me". Know what? I do. I call them and tell them of my experiences at their dealership, what I thought of their selection, how I was treated, etc. They're always appreciative of the feedback.
For me, I now have a ownership/management contact with whom I can recruit help from when I'm in the market.
In my area, the Lexus dealership had a big party for the rollout of their new IS/ES series a couple of weeks ago. They were having a cocktail party. I'm sure it was a blanket e-mail, but just from giving them my e-mail address at the one yearly car show in my 'burg, I got an invite. I went. I showed up for about 30 minutes after work. Ate their caviar and pate. Drank their champaign. Got to take a brief test drive in their new cars. And, met the GM, who gave me his business card telling me to call him if I'm in the market for a Lexus. I'm not, but if I ever am, he'll be the 1st person I'll call.
That's how these relationships start.
You're right about only being able to buy 2 Ford vehicles per year on X plan, though. Plus, I have to keep it at least 6 months as part of the terms of the agreement.
I gave other examples for working with trustworthy dealers that I had relationships with.....one with Toyota.....one with BMW.
There are lots more, but I think most get the picture.
For ongoing employee/supplier programs they can be more selective, I think so relationship will probably help one if the car is eligible for the program but "hot" - not so many for Big 2,5 anyway, but that Mustang (esp. GT) does come in mind.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
So what you are saying is that they people that run the X plan are wrong about the program they run? Hows that again?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sounds alot like the bobst method of buying.
Well what exactly is the bobst method of buying. If its offering a price and then leaving when its rejected, I think that would actually work. I'd call getting up and leaving a method of fighting though.
If you show no inclination at all to argue or even discuss, what is the dealer to do. They can't physically hold you down. If you put them in a position to either take your offer, or say goodbye, then they have to make a choice. I have never been to a dealer that will turn away a profitable offer and say goodbye to the customer. They may let you walk to your car, they may even let you drive off the lot before calling your cell phone, but I don't see how they would turn away a price they desire to sell at. If the offer is a deal that I can do, then I'm not letting you go home without accepting your offer. I may try and get a better offer out of you, but I will not let you leave without purchasing.
I think the real problem with the method is that you may be paying too much. Part of negotiating is reading what the dealer is doing. If you don't do this you may pay too much.
The site also said that you are obligated to inform the dealer from the start that you are eligible for the X plan otherwise you put your eligibility in jeopardy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
a real live buyer getting up and heading for the door is a passive form of arguing. Getting up shifts the entire balance of control. I would expect you to know this...you have the answers for everything else.
Walking out is fine -- I've done it myself -- but it will yield better results if it is not done too soon after the interaction with the sales team has begun. Bob's method involves walking after a very short exchange, so the dealer has contributed very little to the sales process at that stage, and therefore has very little to lose by letting him go. The time and brain damage invested by the seller effectively creates a form of buy-in into the deal and fuels the motivation to close it, even if the profit is minimal.
Obviously, the seller has to feel that he has something to lose by letting you go, and creating a time investment gives him something to lose, i.e. a desire to recoup the fruits of invested effort. It also allows the dealership to learn something about you, namely that you are an educated, informed buyer with negotation skills that are strong enough to get that deal from someone else, which will motivate him to close you before someone else gets the chance.
Riship has touched on one of the basic disadvantages of Bob's method, namely that Bob is shutting himself off from the information gathering that could help the customer to find the lowest price point. You can and should do a lot of research, but the research may or may not prove to be accurate. If used correctly, the negotiation process should provide another feedback mechanism that gets you closer to the bottom of the range.
By the way, a lot of these are just generic negotiation methods that apply to all types of transactions, not just car sales. Car sales have some specific quirks, but for the most part, these are tried-and-true methods that work for many types of situations.
Current model and prior model year vehicles sold in the United States (including Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo, and Mazda*), equipped with any regular production optional equipment, may be purchased or leased each calendar year. Vans and light trucks are available only through E/F-350 Series (see Vehicles & Pricing section for the complete list of vehicles available).
*Eligible X Plan buyers may purchase Mazda Products under the Mazda Purchase ("S") Plan at participating Mazda dealerships.
· New prior model year vehicles may be purchased or leased from dealer stock only up to the date announced by the Company (usually March 31 of the current year).
· Vehicles may be ordered from production or may be selected from the inventory of the dealership, if the dealer agrees. Dealers are not required to participate, but if they do, they must be an authorized Ford Motor Company dealer for the product sold and agree to abide by the New Vehicle Purchase Plan guidelines set forth in this document.
I won't post the entire plan's Ts & Cs, but the above is the part that pertains to this discussion. Nowhere in the X plan does it say that a dealer has to offer all qualifying vehicles, to all people who are eligible, at the x plan price.
That was certainly the case last year with Mustangs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
For 7 months, my Mustang was the only X plan Mustang GT they sold....the rest were at MSRP.
How many dealerships, outside of perhaps some of the luxury/high-end models try to keep an active relationship with people who buy from them?
By the way, under the Talk to the Press thread I saw that some reporter wanted to talk with people who had to pay $200 to $300 to get a key replaced.
I was shocked! I thought all of us smart shoppers knew to get at least five (that's right FIVE) keys when we buy a new car.
Praise is due to the screeners in Minnesota, he said. But not for the screeners at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport, who recently confiscated his car key as a prohibited item.
"I'm leaving Dallas on a Sunday and at security it's the usual stuff - shoes off, laptop out. My carry-on bag goes through the X-ray machine and I hear the infamous 'bag check!' " Mr. Rau recalled.
Here we go, he thought. "A screener says, 'Sir, is this your bag?' And I say, 'Yeah, and I need a private room if you're going to go through it,' " he recalled telling the screener.
Mr. Rau explained: "As an attorney, I carry documents, and because of the nature of what I do - I do intellectual property law - opening them up in a public place could have repercussions for myself or for my clients."
He was told private rooms were for personal screening, not for screening bags. That was not the case in Minneapolis, on the rare occasions when Mr. Rau said he was randomly selected for a secondary screening. "In Minneapolis, if you ask, they always give you a private room and they're nice about it," he said.
At the Dallas checkpoint, the contents of his bag were dumped on the table. "They pull out my car key," he said.
"What's this?" an inspector asked.
"My car key," Mr. Rau said.
Mr. Rau drives an Audi. Audis now come with stylish ignition keys designed to house the key inside a holder, preventing rips and wear on pocket liners. You push a button on a flat two-inch shaft and the key slides out.
As he demonstrated it, Mr. Rau could see the word forming in the minds of the screeners, now three, on his case: switchblade.
"Now the bells are ringing," he said. After running the key through the X-ray machine three times, the security committee reached a conclusion. "Well, sir, that's a switchblade style, and that's a prohibited item," Mr. Rau said he was told. "We're going to have to confiscate that."
Paperwork, of course, was required. His driver's license and other identification papers were photocopied.
"And of course, I didn't have my car keys," he said. Luckily, he keeps a spare in a little magnetized box under his car. But, it cost $300 to replace the key at the dealer, who must add a computer code for a specific car.
He was carrying his house key at the time. In comparison with the flat Audi key, "the house key looks like a saw blade," said Mr. Rau, who first described the incident anonymously on www.flyertalk.com, a frequent-flier forum.
On its Web site, www.tsa.gov, the Transportation Security Administration has posted a list of items you are not permitted to take on an airplane, in both checked bags and carry-ons. But the list is not "intended to be all-inclusive and is updated as necessary," the T.S.A. says, adding, "To ensure everybody's security, the screener may determine that an item not on this chart is prohibited."
Mr. Rau said, "That is the ultimate out - it's totally at their discretion."
Mr. Raus said of his Dallas-Fort Worth experience: "They were not ultra-rude about it. But you ever get the feeling you're just banging your head against a wall?"
Yes, we get that feeling frequently, his fellow business travelers will agree. Last week, the Business Travel Coalition, in a survey of both individual travelers and corporate travel managers, found that "inconsistency among airports was the No. 1 most troubling aspect of the airport security process."
That survey, which also elicited opinions about screening in general and about a proposed registered-traveler program that would expedite screening for those who registered personal information and possibly fingerprints in advance, is available at http://btcweb.biz.
Incidentally, it is not clear to me yet whether other Audi drivers have had ignition keys confiscated at other airports. Telephone calls seeking comment from a spokeswoman at Audi of America headquarters in Auburn Hills, Mich., were not returned.
New York Times
(Not quite what Bob had in mind, but the saga of the $300 key continues...)
In short, I told the heart-rendering story about buying our 1999 Honda. We made our offer that stated in writing that we wanted two additional keys. Just before we were going to write the check, they told us the new keys would only work in the door but not the ignition. It would cost more to have the keys set so they would work in the ignition.
I guess the sales manager thought we just wanted to open the door and sit in the car instead of driving it.
Of course, we immediately got up to leave. They quickly changed their mind and gave us the keys we wanted. As usual, sales people hate to see money walking out the door.
We later got the satisfaction of giving them several zeros on the CSI survey.
By the way, the car was great, and our daughter is still driving it.
One more thing - the sales manager knew my wife because she worked at the school which his children attended. Sure didn't stop him from trying to cheat us, did it? So much for trusting a sales person you know personally.
tg.....it's easier to set up a personal relationship with the luxury brands because they do more in the way of "special events" to get people in their doors. The more common brands usually rely on newspaper advertising to spend their marketing dollars.
In my household, we've got 3 cars....my son has a Hyundai and I have an Acura and a Toyota. I suppose one can say the Acura is a lux brand, and they do have "special events" to go meet and greet management or look at their new models. But, whenever my son goes to get an oil change on his Hyundai (with their discount coupons), he always gets a follow-up phone call (pre-recorded) from their GM thanking him for the service business and an invite to call him for whatever reason. I always urge him to do so.
Same way with my 4Runner. I always get the obligatory pre-recorded phone call asking me to call the Toyota dealership's GM (owner's daughter) if they can help in any way. I call them maybe once/year just to give my feedback about my dealership or service experience. They're always thankful I do.
Sometimes, if they see me in the service waiting room, they'll ask me if everything's "up-to-snuff" with my car and/or service. Sometimes they take me to their office and give me promotional stuff that Toyota or Acura hands out. Nothing big....coffee cups, key fobs, etc. I don't have the Mustang any longer, but whenever I took it in for an oil change, I would go to the SM at the Ford dealership and ask for a free oil change coupon. He never turned me down.
They value their relationships with their customers and I value their's.
I think if you asked isellhondas, he'd agree that the vast majority of the business he does is based on relationships and recommendations of his past customers.
Settting aside the security issue, anyone who travels much has some sort of horror story with airport security. Training of those security folks is woeful. I do get the feeling that they are one step removed from saying "sir, you want fries with that?"
I'm in some airport, somewhere about 3 times per month. By far, security at DFW and also O'Hare are the worst.
Doubtful. What they value is their relationship with the customers money. They're in the business to make money...not relationships. You give them a lot of money when buying multiple vehilces and with their service center. They throw you a few bones(free oil change, car wash, key fob) to keep you happy...which is fine for you.
But again...you apparently refuse to grasp the notion that the vast majority of people will not be in a situation to where they can "form" a "trusting relationship" with a dealership. Maybe, the service advisor when they go in to get an oil change 3 times a year. If there is anyones trust I would want it would be his and the mechanics.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have a great relationship with my dry cleaner. Yes he makes money from my business but I get my suits cleaned faster with no extra charge and I get to spend time in one of the best stocked whiskey bars in the country.
I have a great relationship with my mechanic. Yes he makes money off of me but he treats me well. Reasonable rates, gets me done quickly and lets me know where I can get the work done at a lesser price.
My point is that with a business I use several times a year I can receive better service and get better utility than I can at a business I may use two or three times a decade.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It works for me. I get good value from it. I get great deals because of it.
Personally, I think this has been a great excersise. We've heard many different ways to buy a car....from bobst's, to socal's, to mine, etc.
What works for one, may not work for another.
Audia...you're right, though. We've probably beat this dead horse enough.
The hide is so tanned that I think I'll make myself a dapper pair of dress shoes & a matching purse
Let's move on, because it's such a subjective issue and no one appears to be changing his/her mind.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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Ah, since the topic is "Purchasing Strategies" what shall we move on to?
Tomorrow I am going to be looking at A BMW R1150 (motorcycle) and if I get into negotiations I will let you know how it went.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Oh... we've whipped the poor thing quite severely, but not beaten it to death. I find this "relationship" business a very interesting topic...that probably still has some life to it. And since Audia8q wrote that the Jipster is "always" right, and I believe him, then perhaps we should continue.
For the used car, you can bring them all, or just bring the one that favors your position most. (Of course, the dealer will use whatever favors his side most, but that's how the game is played.)
I would also bring a calculator. If you are borrowing funds, bring a financial calculator or else bring financing tables so that you can calculate monthly payments on the fly. (Before going into the dealership, you should also run numbers so that you have an idea of what kind of terms and payments you expect, and the amount that you expect to borrow.)
Additionally, current customers are also the best form of advertising...The other side of this is understandable. If the local dealer turns over help and runs a crappy operation the consumer can't build a relationship.
I was going to review the dealership's online inventory and print out a TMV/Invoice thing for each car I like. I'd also include a TMV/KBB/NADA paper for the car I'm trading in.
That sound good? Do you guys do this?
Secondly unless you have several different cars you are looking at you really don't need any printouts. It should be easy to know the invoice price of the model, trim and options you want. Just remember that an additional option that you don't want doesn't add value to the car as far as you're concerned.
Finally TMV/KBB/NADA is a good reference but is oft times wrong. If you have a carmax nearby go to them and they will give you a quote. If the dealer doesn't come close take it to carmax.
I would also give your current car a good detail, a clean car could get you much more in a trade in.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't believe motorcycles are negotiated as much as cars are. At least not on Hondas or Harleys here in Orlando. But let me know how you make out.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thanks for the help guys. I can't wait to come back with my (hopeful) success story!
Is that what you meant to say? Or did you say it backwards meaning the trade offer is less than Edmund's number?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
audia...I know you're a dealer principle (right?). I do agree. Those churn & burn places aren't the ones you want to try to establish a relationship with. Plus, I don't find those to be all that trustworthy, anyway.
Just curious though....do you find that the sales staff that is the most successful establish relationships with their clients/customers? Have you ever figured out what percentage of repeat business makes up your total sales?
I'm not in sales, but from what I've read here and elsewhere, the people who stay in the car business the longest seem to be the ones who have a steady stream of referrals and repeat business. The only way to do that is to establish themselves as trustworthy business people. Or, am I all wrong?
The only way to do that is to establish themselves as trustworthy business people. Or, am I all wrong?
I think your right on track but
it depends on your definition of success...I have known salespeople who didn't need any relationships and could sell anything to anyone. These guys work the hardest and often make the most money...but over time they get burned out and don't last more than a couple, few years. OTOH, somebody who has managed to stay put and work at one dealership for a long time usually doenst have to take 'ups' off the salesfloor...they enjoy most sales from repeats and referrals. This makes life alot easier and the income usually follows....People generally prefer to do business with people they know.
Re: relationships, for 15 years we've owned an independent bookstore and watched as bookstores closed around us in one of the country's best and most competitive book markets. Relationships with--authors, sales reps, publicists, vendors, but first and foremost--our customers are why we are still around.
Providing superb customer service is our only way to compete with the chains. We provide an excellent selection of books and...a spot of warmth, humor & community. Our customers write me emails from abroad, send me photos of kids & grandkids and buy me ice cream. They even organized a potluck goodbye party when we moved the store. BUT they do this because we have earned their loyalty by going well beyond the basic level of customer service. One customer read at the Library of Congress recently, I did the postcard for the event. We were not selling the books, but LOC was not on top of promotion and I wanted him to have a successful event.
Not surprisingly, my entire family looks for that level of service and has developed relationships with other small businesses. However, haircuts, food to go, farmers markets and so on are a bit different than a dealership. I have high expectations of the businesses I give my bit of money to. But I think dealerships are in a different category for my family.
Plus since we have bad car karma, I always feel we are buying another moving target. The car we bought replaced a totaled Saturn (bought when a 65 year old maple fell on our Toyota and so on).
Any time you think, breathe, or say the word 'expect' you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Is this a regional advertising fee? Those do end up on the invoice that is shown to the customer.
The advertising fee is debatable. Edmunds would tell you to pay it; Consumer Reports would tell you that its legitimacy varies. I would say that everything is negotiable, and there's no reason why you, the buyer, should treat it as a sacred cow, whether or not it is "legitimate." If the seller wants to collect it, let him try to fight for it.