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Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories

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  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    are in it for the money...period.

    The so called relationship is a distant second.

    There is a recent article in a magazine that tells how they ( car salesperson ) read the customer...

    1- never tell them how much you can afford per month...or else they would just make some creative way to make the payments within your budget, yet in fine print you find all sort of high interest rates, high priced items, etc...

    2- The saleperson will always go to his boss..and they will work out a new price...and say that either
    a- you must put a down,
    b- use thier financing,
    c- must do this or that....

    Come on.....with known dealer holdbacks and special incentives.... dealers almost always say that they cannot make money on the deal...even though we all know what the bottom line was....

    Car salespersons are not all dishonest, and I know a few that I can count on...but their job is to get you ...the consumer...to pay more....period.

    Do not be dazzled by all the fluff of so called more quality service. They are in the business of providing service...and should be courteous and polite and nice...no matter what the price is....that is just being civil.

    I am sure they all talk about the non-informed buyer who went in and paid $5000 over MSRP...plus bought the extended warranty at full price...plus bought the interior protection package.....plus accessories, plus undercar rust prevention, plus all financed at a low monthly rate of $599...but at an interest rate of 18 %.... And they tell this buyer that he got a great deal...all in the same breath...

    No disrespect intended.... :sick:

    Do I see drooling from some posters here ? ;)
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    In most cases, the one price concept does not work. The stores give out their "one price" and the shopper takes it and happily go's all over town until they find a store that will sell the car for less.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yawn....more of this?
  • biancarbiancar Member Posts: 965
    Isell, you say you're not one of those people obsessed with paying the least possible dollar. Do you also take this relaxed attitude into selling? If the buyer offers, say $500 below invoice, do you say "Sure, you know I'm not obsessed with making the most money possible for my dealership, life's too short?"

    There's a difference between being "obsessed" and simply negotiating the best possible deal, at the lowest possible price.
  • akenatenakenaten Member Posts: 122
    Okay!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yes, I agree but up to a point. Some people are truly obsessed. Most just want to feel they got a good deal.

    I don't care if I get the "lowest possible price" when I buy something. I consider all of the elements of the sale.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I am sure they all talk about the non-informed buyer who went in and paid $5000 over MSRP...plus bought the extended warranty at full price...plus bought the interior protection package.....plus accessories, plus undercar rust prevention, plus all financed at a low monthly rate of $599...but at an interest rate of 18 %.... And they tell this buyer that he got a great deal...all in the same breath...

    Bingo. If you go back and read the poster's experience at #542 and her prior posts, she was able to use some of the advice from consumers here to save almost $2,400 as compared to her negotiation with a different dealer for the same type of car.

    What was telling was her comment in #513 about the higher-priced of the two deals: "The dealer told me he was impressed with my bargaining skills..." Is it any surprise that a high price is going to gain kudos from the sales team?
  • bookishbookish Member Posts: 9
    This is a note of thanks for the board's good advice and a query--how'd I do? My husband and daughter were hit by someone making an illegal left 9 days ago. We live just outside DC and can both walk to work, so 1 car for a family of 4 works. We keep our cars forever but have horrendous car karma. (This is the first time we've been near a car that became a total loss.) But decided we needed to take advantage of EOM for the replacement.

    With fingers crossed (on my part) we settled on a Mazda5. Test drove it last Wed. We did some email requests for quote but out of half dozen, got just one serious and careful reply with an actual quote. The rest were calls. Visited another MD Mazda dealership yesterday and test drove the Touring (with more features) @19,550.

    They made two offers on that before I countered once. Then I got the "OK-U-WIN 17,982" note from sales manager +560 freight. I said no, we don't need the Touring that much and we could live with a Sport or look elsewhere (stated non-confrontationally). They matched another dealer's price of 16,535 on a Sport (it was a dealer exchange for them but the price inc. freight).

    When I asked why don't you just drop the freight on the vehicle you have on the lot, they said yes. We left with the Mazda5 Touring in a color we like for 17,982+t,t,etc. Did not go for the automatic although our older daughter will be ready to drive soon (some buyers' remorse on that point). I'd hoped to pay 16.5K for the base Sport and this is more than I intended on the Touring, although still below TMV for the area.

    We had a nice but newish salesman who made a follow-up call to us today. He had no hesitation about negotiating with a woman...which has not been my experience in the past. My husband would just pay sticker and leave, so I have always been the one to negotiate--cars, commercial leases, etc.

    Thanks again, lots of research squished into the last week and your strategies helped. Sorry for the long post. Did I do OK?
  • bookishbookish Member Posts: 9
    I did have my folder full of research with me and pulled out a couple competitors' info while we discussed freight. This dealer's online inventory was very inconsistent, some prices included freight and others did not. Each time I handed R. another dealer's info, he was off to the sales manager's office. At one point while we talked about invoice price, he went to get me a copy of the invoice because he wanted to maintain his credibility.

    He was a nice guy but so new that I think the manager should have come out--would have speeded things up...and cut the number of calls from my kids! Thanks again.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Well, it's hard to judge your deal without knowing the invoice price of the car, or details about incentives, inventories, etc., but it sounds as if you used some of the ideas here (i.e. not making the first offers, working off of invoice) to good effect.

    FWIW, I checked both Edmunds and some slightly outdated info that I had handy from Automotive News regarding incentives, and couldn't find any. I would suggest doing research on these before buying, but in this case, it seems that you didn't miss any incentives that would have left money on the table.

    As far as destination charges, those fees that are on the window sticker are actually legitimate. There is no markup (or at least I've never seen a markup) between the invoice cost and MSRP of the destination fees. Still, I'd say that any excuse that you have to negotiate can be useful, so if you managed to end up at the right price by negotiating these fees, more power to you.

    This table from Consumer Reports provides a decent summary of what fees are legitimate, and which ones are not. "Fees fair and fees foul: What to do about closing costs"
  • akenatenakenaten Member Posts: 122
    Maybe you should ask one of our salespeople if you got a good deal...
  • bookishbookish Member Posts: 9
    Base invoice was 17,739. The color must be considered desirable to others--that, wheel locks & freight added up to a TMV of 18,924 in this area. Oh, I know that destination charges are legit..but when they want to compete with dealers that fold that into advertised prices, something's gotta give.

    I did check for incentives but did not find any. Holdbacks, etc. made have made the deal workable for the delaer. Of course, now I need Mazda to stick with the model for a while.

    This was a purchase planned for late in 2006 and the accident made it a neccesity. I did not have any real give in my budget.
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    I consider all of the elements of the sale.

    Would you mind elaborating? What other elements do you consider?

    I suspect that one of the elements you'll mention is using the sales experience as a springboard to a harmonious relationship with the service department. In fact, I am fairly certain that you and Terry have implied that service departments will "punish" grinders and give unpreferential treatment to cars bought from other dealers. Personally, I've experienced the exact opposite.

    I had a great purchase experience at a Subaru dealer near my home (negotiated entirely via e-mail, btw -- I showed up, test drove, paid the price quoted and not a penny more, and didn't have to sit with the F&I guy). I met the service manager, who was a really nice guy and said some nice things about my purchase. The service waiting area was very old school -- just a little TV and some beat-up chairs -- but I figured I could live with that, since the garage was close to home.

    Fast forward to my first oil change. I had a vacation day to burn, so I figured I'd get the oil change done first thing on a Friday and then play some golf. I made a 6:00 appointment. I get there at 5 to, and the place is a zoo. I don't know if they overbooked the time slot or had a lot of walk-ins, but there's a line out the door at the counter and a cluster of people milling around outside. I don't get to the counter until 6:30, and the clerk tells me it's probably going to be about an hour. Long story short, I don't get on the road until 9:45, and I knew as I drove away that they had permanently lost my business.

    Through Edmunds and asking around, I found out about a Subaru dealer a little farther away whose service dept has an excellent reputation. I went there for the next scheduled oil change, and I was blown away -- a gorgeous facility, quick turnaround, online appointment scheduling, and great service reps. They couldn't care less that I didn't buy the car there -- granted, I've been fortunate to not need anything other than non-emergency routine maintenance, but I've never had any problem getting an appointment, even with less than 12 hours' notice. I'll definitely consider them when it's time to buy another car, but no matter where I'll buy, they're getting my service business as long as I live here.

    If I lived in northern Alabama and was buying a Subaru or other "exotic", then yeah, I'd pay more attention to the relationship-building aspect to the sale. But most of us live in markets where there are tons of dealers and tons of customers. It's natural for sales to want to hand over customers to service. But in a competitive market, service is absolutely thrilled to welcome business from other dealers. It's just gravy for them, and as a result imo the service relationship is not a factor one should consider when buying a popular make in a major market.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    A fine post. My experience is similar to yours -- the sales side of my deal has absolutely no impact on the service that I receive, I get the same repairs, loaners, free coffee and everything else that the other customers are getting. A service department is a profit center in its own right, and will happily do work for which it gets paid, whether via the warranty or from the customer.

    Here's an idea: If the dealer wants to charge me more than I'm inclined to pay, then toss in a guaranteed service package that ensures me that I get all of these great perks. If you want to charge me a premium with only the possibility of special VIP service, and not commit to it in writing, then why should I pay in advance for something that I may never get?
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I believe that you are saying that you paid about $250 over invoice? If the car had no incentives and inventories were at moderate (not overwhelming) levels, I would guess that you did pretty well for yourself.

    I don't personally pay much mind to TMV, although it's good to know that you beat it by a wide margin.
  • bookishbookish Member Posts: 9
    Well, I thought I'd about hit invoice. But I haven't had the time to look at DC's site for a "Washington DC assessment fee" that cost us 260.00. Perhaps this was a hidden charge? Or perhaps Congressional Motors' is a DC corporation...or was originally.

    When our business, an independent bookstore, was in DC we were always getting these odd assessments or additional business taxes. DC's tax base--at that time--was shrinking (and because the Fed. govt. has so much of DC's land locked up tax-free) they periodically have brainstorms to increase this or that revenue stream.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    But I haven't had the time to look at DC's site for a "Washington DC assessment fee" that cost us 260.00.

    I'm not in DC, so I can't comment on this one. If that is a DMV/ registration license fee or similar tax, then you can't blame the dealer for it. But if this is some sort of bogus charge, then it could help other buyers here in your market to stay on the lookout for it.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    aken.....regarding the Tacoma situation, I wasn't hurt. No one else was hurt. No property was damaged (except the alloy wheel on the truck). There was nothing to sue for. They could have found out what was wrong with the brakes, fixed it, and sent me on my way.

    Instead, my relationship with the dealer got me something to drive immedieately, at no charge (there's nothing in the purchase agreement that states they "give" me a replacement vehicle to drive). I also got a very nice 4 Runner (which I'm very pleased with) at a price that can't be touched because I've set up a business relationship with them.

    Dealership had NO responsibility to offer me any concession. They could have just as easily said "it's a warranty issue....we'll fix it and send you away".

    No laydown, at all. I could have just taken the refund and washed my hands of the whole scerario. Again, this was a "win-win" situation. I got a vehicle for a price that no Toyota dealer would touch. They kept a good customer happy.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    Based on Invoice, MSRP and TMV and general market trend,and make an offfer of what you want to pay based on that information and your budget.

    veedub.....BINGO! While I use other sources in addition to Edmunds, doing a little research will give you a good idea of what any vehicle will sell for. I make note of market conditions (a Prius is at or around MSRP, right now, for example....an Explorer can be had way back of invoice, on the other hand). I also scan the newspaper to see what any model is being advertised for. That's where most dealerships will usually post their "rock bottom" (only one at this price) prices to get people in the door. Looking around the dealerships lot, to see what their stock situation is, proves helpful also in making a good deal. The more stock, the easier it is to make a good deal.

    Before I walk into the showroom, I know what a car is going to cost, based on the above research. I cut right to the chase. If we're more than $100 or so off from what I'm offering and what the dealership wants, I think them for their time and move on.

    I find that coming out of the shoot, telling the dealership you're going to drive home in a new car today, from someone, gets to a good deal in short order. Obviously, they're going to try to bump me from my offer....and, I'm going to push back a little to see how much further I can go. But, by that time, if they know a sale is imminent, it's pretty simple to get some concessions......15 minutes.....20 tops, should be all that's needed to make a deal.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I'm a busy person and I don't have the time or patience of some people. As a result, when I make a major purchase, I may spend a bit more than someone else but then I'm done and on to other things in my life. By "all of the elements", I'm talking about distance, the way I'm treated and things like that.

    When we need a major appliance, which has been pretty often lately, we usually end up at a small mom and pop store that somehow manages to survive. They know what they are talking about, deliver for free and are just downright nice people to deal with. Yes, we probably could have spent 20.00 less for the dishwasher we just bought

    I don't care. I'm happy.

    I don't think I ever said that a dealer's Service Dept. punsihes people who don't buy there. I'm sure there are places who do favors and go beyond the call of duty for their loyal customers and I can't blame them for that.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I'm a busy person and I don't have the time or patience of some people. As a result, when I make a major purchase, I may spend a bit more than someone else but then I'm done and on to other things in my life.

    You're not the only one who is busy, I am too and when I make a major purchase I don't sit there forever to get the best deal. But guess what, getting near there really doesn't take much time. If done properly negotiating a very good price shouldn't take that long. I doubt that in buying a car I would spend more than 10-20 minutes more than someone coming in and making a take it or leave it offer.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    I'm just curious...where are you buying cars if you don't trust the dealership or sales personnel you're buying from?

    I can't imagine buying a big ticket item like a car if I didn't trust the place or people I'm buying from.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I can't imagine buying a big ticket item like a car if I didn't trust the place or people I'm buying from.

    Trust of the dealership plays virtually no role in my shopping process. It becomes fairly irrelevant when you focus on buying the car, rather than trying to create a costly "relationship" that produces little, if no value. If the dealership has what I want in stock (or can order it with little drama), and it is relatively convenient to places where I tend to spend my time, that's good enough.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    I'm a bit different, I suppose. I guess I expect more from those I spend my money with. I won't buy anything, let alone a big ticket item, from a business entity or person I don't trust. My business relationships save me money (also, time and headache). Those relationships cost me nothing. Heck, my car sales person has even picked up my car for an oil change and left me with his demo to use in case I need it.

    Same way with my real estate agent, my insurance agent, my appliance store, my clothing store, even my produce guy. If I don't trust them, I don't do business with them.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Same way with my real estate agent, my insurance agent, my appliance store, my clothing store, even my produce guy. If I don't trust them, I don't do business with them.

    Some transactions require trust, others don't.

    The dealership sells a car that was built by someone else. It has a warranty provided by the manufacturer, and service is available from a wide number of places.

    I've done business with people who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them. A service business in which the seller's output greatly effects the result requires more trust than a product business in which the products are of uniform quality. A Honda is a Honda, and aside from a seller who goes way over the top (i.e. creating fake VIN numbers and selling used cars as new), I am going to the one is who is convenient and can deliver the product.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    It's your choice if you have not problem dealing with a guy you know would sell his mother for highest bidder. You may think you have and know it all, you may think there is nothing in his book that may surprise you or you'll have no response to. But what if he actually has, what if he manages to pull a trick? Isn't an "insurance" against it worth anything to you?

    All I say, people assign monetary value to intangibles, such as convenience, comfort, experience, product knowledge, post-sale service, and what not. One may assign different amounts to each and every of those things than another and that's why there are still non-WalMarts out there, whatever challenges they may be facing now.

    What I have a problem with is your sweeping blanket statements not only asserting that those intangibles have little or no value TO YOU (which I undertand), but they also suggest (not necessarily in open form) if they present some value to Mr. Smith, there is obviously something wrong with him.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    We can say the same thing about the company that makes your washer & dryer. We don't buy directly from Maytag. I don't buy my clothes directly from Hilfiger.

    But, as I mentioned, anyone I'm going to do business with, I have to trust. It's saved me time, money, and offers me a certain amount of "perks" along the way.

    Back to cars, I have a favorite/prefered dealership for just about every brand of car there is (short of the exotics). I know them. They know me. I trust them. They trust me. We make good deals together and they get my repeat business in the process (not only for myself, but my family, my neighbors and my friends).
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Some transactions require trust, others don't.

    All transactions require some degree of trust on both sides, if not your a sucker. Same with a dealer, there has to be some trust there. Maybe not to the degree that I trust them to have my back in a bar fight but enough to be sure that they are not selling me a car that was totaled during its delivery that they fixed up and are selling as brand new.

    Now while I'll agree that a car is a somewhat homogeneous product (an Accord is an Accord regardless of which dealer you buy it from) and that it is warranted by the manufacturer and that it can be serviced anywhere there are some dealerships that I will not set foot into. Seriously there are at least three dealers in the Chicago area that the only way I would buy from them if they called me up told me that they would sell me the car at 50% of invoice with a 0% loan, free extended warrantee, 60K miles of free scheduled service and a free week vacation to Hawaii.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    The point is that car dealers are generally untrustworthy, so I see no point in expending a lot of unnecessary energy to search for a virtue that is both difficult to find and doesn't ultimately help improve the car, anyway. The trust comes from the brand value of the badge and the nameplate, not from the salesperson who plays little or no role in the post-sale ownership process.

    It makes more sense to always be prepared and prudent, and to prepare for the very real possibility that games will be played during the purchase process, regardless. Just so long as the dealer does the bare minimum and doesn't do anything extreme, I don't see why it's worth worrying about.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Yeah, I agree with that. One needs to be prepared for some ritual back and forth. I just think we should be ready and willing to walk away and never come back whenever we feel the line has been crossed, even if there is a distinct possibility of actually getting a good (or even best) price. I just refuse to get exposed to such element. Moreover, I simply value my soul higher than any possible discount I might get on a car. For example, if I ever faced a guy who would offer me $50 for turning CSI form blank to him (a friend who bought Infiniti got such an offer), his GM and the president of the manufacturer would receive a long letter explaining why I think such practice is unacceptable by any measure.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    Which gets back to my original question of why buy from the dealerships/personeel you don't trust?

    If you're finding that the people who are doing things that make you distrustful of them, why reward them with your business?

    I'm having a hard time grasping that.

    That's the reason I have preferred dealerships I do business with.....TRUST!
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    All transactions require some degree of trust on both sides, if not your a sucker.

    I would agree that you need some element of trust, but I would say that in the case of a car purchase, the desire for trust should be set at a very low bar.

    Everything is a matter of priorities, and mine are the availability of inventory, price and the convenience of the location. Ultimately, most matters of trust can be mitigated by inspecting the car, not signing anything that you don't understand, and being fully cognizant of where your money is going. While it's nice if the salespeople are friendly, polite and such, it's not a requirement for me.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    I was going to say a few things, but Socal has expressed my thoughts exactly.

    Graphic, some of us don't think it is important to trust people. Why is that hard for you to grasp?
  • black_tulipblack_tulip Member Posts: 435
    ...but I would say that in the case of a car purchase, the desire for trust should be set at a very low bar.

    I would agree if you are talking about a new car or a manufacturer CPO. For used cars, too many variables: some degree of trust is essential.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Lets put trust issue at example:
    Dealer 1: Known sleazeball (others already warned you about him), offers you price of $19.7K, says it is 5.5% Apr, but at time of signing it becomes 7.5%, they feel free to add life insurance, the contract has additional $599 for paint sealant, fabric protection and first oil change, etc. You fight for next three hours to sterilize the contract to what you think will be acceptable numbers. Basically makes you anxious to wait for the confirmation letter from the bank as you don't really know if he possibly forged your signature on the contract and your next payment will be $100 more than that signed.
    Dealer B: Offered you $20K, you know from others they don't put junk on, there was never instance of fraud allegation, everything will go quick and fast, he will try to sell you an extended warranty, which you may or may not not buy.

    So is the possibility of saving $300 worth for you to go to place where they will try every single trick to actually vacuum more money from your pocket and it will take you a lot of time to fight off all those attempts? How about $100, or $50? Or to the others, is $1000 worth some of YOUR time to actually go through that ritual?

    All I want to say, the borders are there, we all can quantify them, the values will be different. One will go 500 miles to squeeze 50 bucks, another will not move for a thousand or even two. Most of us fall somewhere in between, but it is our choice to make regardless what Socal will do or thinks. ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    "So is the possibility of saving $300 worth for you to go to place where they will try every single trick to actually vacuum more money from your pocket and it will take you a lot of time to fight off all those attempts?"

    Wow, that's a long question!

    Dino, if you state your questions more simply, I will try to answer them.

    Besides, you gave two examples, but your questions did not specifically refer to either example. Kind of odd.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I see your point, here's my take:

    -Due diligence: I'm not sure in advance whether I'd know which one is Dealer A and which one is Dealer B. I can ask around a bit, but at the end of the day I have to be prepared for whatever may happen

    -Dealer A is the norm: Most dealers have some elements of conduct that resemble some aspect of Dealer A. I find it easier to be prepared for everyone to act like Dealer A than I would to spend days trying to find Dealer B, who may very well not exist

    -Dealer A is easy to tame: It's simple -- I read my contracts, understand what I'm reading, and examine every term and number to be sure that everything is above board. If something is wrong, I will either have it fixed or walk out (and if you walk out, chances are good that the next contract won't have any problems.)

    -Negotiation sets the tone: FWIW, in my experience, a negotiation that is well-managed will often result in fewer games being played at the back end, because you will have set the tone for the proceedings and it will become apparent that you are not going to be fooled. A dealer who is inclined to behave like Dealer A (most of them) will be more inclined to function like Dealer B if it becomes clear that the jig is up.

    I think that Kirstie's example above illustrates what happens when you rely too heavily on trust. She laid her constraints on the table (she was in a hurry) and played the role of cooperative buyer (paid asking price, no fuss, no muss.)

    How did the dealer reward her for abiding by their rules? By trying to screw her on the F&I process. Fortunately, she was able to avoid paying even more by eliminating the extras from her purchase agreement, but the review process was necessary in spite of her already having paid the niceness premium. This is just par for the course, and you have to be prepared for it.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    For used cars, too many variables: some degree of trust is essential.

    Valid point, used cars do make reputation more important for a buyer. That being said, buying used cars from any dealer or sales lot presents an opportunity for problems, as they can be very good at concealing problems and laundering the title, so I'd always be careful, regardless. I would never buy any used car, including a CPO'd vehicle, without my own inspection.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    I thought the alternative was simple:
    1. you MAY save said $300, but you will have to look over absolutely every single detail during signing process and still will not be so sure if everything was really what you think (or was told) it was.
    2. You WILL NOT save that $300, but you are almost certain the guy will not pull eleventh hour trick and whatever you were told, was a fact.

    SO, IN EVEN SIMPLER FORM: Is your trust worth $300? For either answer what will be your "threshold", i.e. how much would it take to change your answer?

    The point when you deal with someone not so trustworthy, you never really know (until you really know ;) ) how much you will pay at the end. You may think you're saving, but they find a way to tap to your money that those more trustworthy individuals would not entertain.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    You certainly have a strong point here. There is definitely no way of really knowing who we deal with and we shoould be prepared for Dealer A behavior. And Kristie's example is perfect - when they ask for your arm and you say OK too quickly, the paperwork very likely will have your leg added to the bill.

    On the other hand, I just like to think there are behaviors in between and they CAN be quantified, which basically gets me back to the point that even if you and I think that $300 is too much for "feel good we all are friends" environment, I can still acknowledge that others may be willing to shell out said $300 and it's not a waste for THEM. They value things differently and we should respect that, too, even if for us a car is just a commodity (esp. popular models).

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I can still acknowledge that others may be willing to shell out said $300 and it's not a waste for THEM.

    I realize that some people will willingly pay the "niceness premium". (If I was a car salesperson, you can bet that I would be trying to collect the "niceness premium" myself.) My point has been that I don't see the value in it, and I don't even know how I'd ensure that I would reap any benefits from it.

    I see a tendency to overvalue the role of trust in a car purchase, particularly a new car purchase. In some businesses, trust is extremely important, and there are other benefits aside from price that are so vital that they are worth paying for, but for cars, I'm not seeing it. If you get the same car, the same service, the same warranty, etc., what exactly is it that I'm paying extra for?

    There is almost no circumstance in which you can put your guard down with a car dealer, they all require a certain degree of vigilance. Their entire business model has some core values rooted in manipulative behavior, so you have no choice but to pay attention. That caution doesn't warrant rudeness or aggressiveness, but you have to always keep your eyes wide open in these situations, no matter how nice or how good their reputation allegedly may be.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I don't care what level of trust I have in the dealership or what their reputation is. I will always look over anything I sign with a fine tooth comb. I read and understand everything before signing.

    Last time I signed something without reading it I ended up in boot camp.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Their entire business model has some core values rooted in manipulative behavior, so you have no choice but to pay attention.

    Lets be honest, we also are advocating manipulative behavior on this forum.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Lets be honest, we also are advocating manipulative behavior on this forum.

    Undoubtedly, we are. In a car purchase, I see there being no choice. There are simply too many incentives for the seller to lie and tell half-truths to simply accept things at face value.

    Not quite about car purchases, but Steven Levitt's fine book Freakonomics provides a good basis for understanding. Levitt's basic premise is that a lot of behavior is quite logical if viewed in the context of the incentives that people have, and I see that applying to buying a car.

    The fact that car sales are commission-based, highly competitive within the dealership (salespeople not just compete with other dealerships, but with their fellow salespeople), and multi-layered (sale, trade, financing, add-ons, insurance) creates very strong motivations for the dealership to attempt to manipulate buyers. Really, you can't blame them for trying -- the system is set up to encourage them to behave this way -- so you have little choice but to have an effective game plan of your own. Being totally upfront and completely straightforward is not generally going to be a good strategy for a buyer to use.
  • madeintheusamadeintheusa Member Posts: 7
    So GM is offering this conquest bonus cash to buyers that have proof of ownership of a non-GM vehicle. I think this policy stinks since I have always been a loyal GM customer and they have no loyalty cash available. So what kind of proof do you need? Can I just pick up a title from a junk yard for a few bucks to save an extra $1,000 or do you need a registration too? Maybe I'll just buy a Toyota to spite them and thier unfair program.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    They do? Well with that and the GM rewards points I have on my card I can get something real cheap. ;)

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    That was a great response!

    Hard (for us)to believe what some people will put up with or how far they will drive to save 300.00!

    If they save it at all!
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    The point is that car dealers are generally untrustworthy....

    You got this part partially wrong...the statement should be people are generally untrustworthy, until proven otherwise.

    I never realized that car dealers are a separate class of species.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Hey $300 is $300. It will buy a round for me and a client/friend/relative/enemy/perfect stranger on Dubsdread. :blush:

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    You stated your case - no value in "niceness premium" to you and it's fine. Why is it bothering you that someone else sees value in it? Is it that you have to be right or is it that no one else can have different value system. That's what I don't get.

    Just a small example: you own an Audi (or used to) as your nick suggests. Great car. However, others would say it's the most overpriced piece of junk humanity ever conceived, cause they value reliability over anything else. They would never pay "German engineering" premium, deeming it completely worthless, as even a nicest design is not worth a lot if the item is not working as designed.

    Lets just disagree on value of "niceness premium" and simply move on.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

This discussion has been closed.