Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories
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The so called relationship is a distant second.
There is a recent article in a magazine that tells how they ( car salesperson ) read the customer...
1- never tell them how much you can afford per month...or else they would just make some creative way to make the payments within your budget, yet in fine print you find all sort of high interest rates, high priced items, etc...
2- The saleperson will always go to his boss..and they will work out a new price...and say that either
a- you must put a down,
b- use thier financing,
c- must do this or that....
Come on.....with known dealer holdbacks and special incentives.... dealers almost always say that they cannot make money on the deal...even though we all know what the bottom line was....
Car salespersons are not all dishonest, and I know a few that I can count on...but their job is to get you ...the consumer...to pay more....period.
Do not be dazzled by all the fluff of so called more quality service. They are in the business of providing service...and should be courteous and polite and nice...no matter what the price is....that is just being civil.
I am sure they all talk about the non-informed buyer who went in and paid $5000 over MSRP...plus bought the extended warranty at full price...plus bought the interior protection package.....plus accessories, plus undercar rust prevention, plus all financed at a low monthly rate of $599...but at an interest rate of 18 %.... And they tell this buyer that he got a great deal...all in the same breath...
No disrespect intended.... :sick:
Do I see drooling from some posters here ?
There's a difference between being "obsessed" and simply negotiating the best possible deal, at the lowest possible price.
I don't care if I get the "lowest possible price" when I buy something. I consider all of the elements of the sale.
Bingo. If you go back and read the poster's experience at #542 and her prior posts, she was able to use some of the advice from consumers here to save almost $2,400 as compared to her negotiation with a different dealer for the same type of car.
What was telling was her comment in #513 about the higher-priced of the two deals: "The dealer told me he was impressed with my bargaining skills..." Is it any surprise that a high price is going to gain kudos from the sales team?
With fingers crossed (on my part) we settled on a Mazda5. Test drove it last Wed. We did some email requests for quote but out of half dozen, got just one serious and careful reply with an actual quote. The rest were calls. Visited another MD Mazda dealership yesterday and test drove the Touring (with more features) @19,550.
They made two offers on that before I countered once. Then I got the "OK-U-WIN 17,982" note from sales manager +560 freight. I said no, we don't need the Touring that much and we could live with a Sport or look elsewhere (stated non-confrontationally). They matched another dealer's price of 16,535 on a Sport (it was a dealer exchange for them but the price inc. freight).
When I asked why don't you just drop the freight on the vehicle you have on the lot, they said yes. We left with the Mazda5 Touring in a color we like for 17,982+t,t,etc. Did not go for the automatic although our older daughter will be ready to drive soon (some buyers' remorse on that point). I'd hoped to pay 16.5K for the base Sport and this is more than I intended on the Touring, although still below TMV for the area.
We had a nice but newish salesman who made a follow-up call to us today. He had no hesitation about negotiating with a woman...which has not been my experience in the past. My husband would just pay sticker and leave, so I have always been the one to negotiate--cars, commercial leases, etc.
Thanks again, lots of research squished into the last week and your strategies helped. Sorry for the long post. Did I do OK?
He was a nice guy but so new that I think the manager should have come out--would have speeded things up...and cut the number of calls from my kids! Thanks again.
FWIW, I checked both Edmunds and some slightly outdated info that I had handy from Automotive News regarding incentives, and couldn't find any. I would suggest doing research on these before buying, but in this case, it seems that you didn't miss any incentives that would have left money on the table.
As far as destination charges, those fees that are on the window sticker are actually legitimate. There is no markup (or at least I've never seen a markup) between the invoice cost and MSRP of the destination fees. Still, I'd say that any excuse that you have to negotiate can be useful, so if you managed to end up at the right price by negotiating these fees, more power to you.
This table from Consumer Reports provides a decent summary of what fees are legitimate, and which ones are not. "Fees fair and fees foul: What to do about closing costs"
I did check for incentives but did not find any. Holdbacks, etc. made have made the deal workable for the delaer. Of course, now I need Mazda to stick with the model for a while.
This was a purchase planned for late in 2006 and the accident made it a neccesity. I did not have any real give in my budget.
Would you mind elaborating? What other elements do you consider?
I suspect that one of the elements you'll mention is using the sales experience as a springboard to a harmonious relationship with the service department. In fact, I am fairly certain that you and Terry have implied that service departments will "punish" grinders and give unpreferential treatment to cars bought from other dealers. Personally, I've experienced the exact opposite.
I had a great purchase experience at a Subaru dealer near my home (negotiated entirely via e-mail, btw -- I showed up, test drove, paid the price quoted and not a penny more, and didn't have to sit with the F&I guy). I met the service manager, who was a really nice guy and said some nice things about my purchase. The service waiting area was very old school -- just a little TV and some beat-up chairs -- but I figured I could live with that, since the garage was close to home.
Fast forward to my first oil change. I had a vacation day to burn, so I figured I'd get the oil change done first thing on a Friday and then play some golf. I made a 6:00 appointment. I get there at 5 to, and the place is a zoo. I don't know if they overbooked the time slot or had a lot of walk-ins, but there's a line out the door at the counter and a cluster of people milling around outside. I don't get to the counter until 6:30, and the clerk tells me it's probably going to be about an hour. Long story short, I don't get on the road until 9:45, and I knew as I drove away that they had permanently lost my business.
Through Edmunds and asking around, I found out about a Subaru dealer a little farther away whose service dept has an excellent reputation. I went there for the next scheduled oil change, and I was blown away -- a gorgeous facility, quick turnaround, online appointment scheduling, and great service reps. They couldn't care less that I didn't buy the car there -- granted, I've been fortunate to not need anything other than non-emergency routine maintenance, but I've never had any problem getting an appointment, even with less than 12 hours' notice. I'll definitely consider them when it's time to buy another car, but no matter where I'll buy, they're getting my service business as long as I live here.
If I lived in northern Alabama and was buying a Subaru or other "exotic", then yeah, I'd pay more attention to the relationship-building aspect to the sale. But most of us live in markets where there are tons of dealers and tons of customers. It's natural for sales to want to hand over customers to service. But in a competitive market, service is absolutely thrilled to welcome business from other dealers. It's just gravy for them, and as a result imo the service relationship is not a factor one should consider when buying a popular make in a major market.
Here's an idea: If the dealer wants to charge me more than I'm inclined to pay, then toss in a guaranteed service package that ensures me that I get all of these great perks. If you want to charge me a premium with only the possibility of special VIP service, and not commit to it in writing, then why should I pay in advance for something that I may never get?
I don't personally pay much mind to TMV, although it's good to know that you beat it by a wide margin.
When our business, an independent bookstore, was in DC we were always getting these odd assessments or additional business taxes. DC's tax base--at that time--was shrinking (and because the Fed. govt. has so much of DC's land locked up tax-free) they periodically have brainstorms to increase this or that revenue stream.
I'm not in DC, so I can't comment on this one. If that is a DMV/ registration license fee or similar tax, then you can't blame the dealer for it. But if this is some sort of bogus charge, then it could help other buyers here in your market to stay on the lookout for it.
Instead, my relationship with the dealer got me something to drive immedieately, at no charge (there's nothing in the purchase agreement that states they "give" me a replacement vehicle to drive). I also got a very nice 4 Runner (which I'm very pleased with) at a price that can't be touched because I've set up a business relationship with them.
Dealership had NO responsibility to offer me any concession. They could have just as easily said "it's a warranty issue....we'll fix it and send you away".
No laydown, at all. I could have just taken the refund and washed my hands of the whole scerario. Again, this was a "win-win" situation. I got a vehicle for a price that no Toyota dealer would touch. They kept a good customer happy.
veedub.....BINGO! While I use other sources in addition to Edmunds, doing a little research will give you a good idea of what any vehicle will sell for. I make note of market conditions (a Prius is at or around MSRP, right now, for example....an Explorer can be had way back of invoice, on the other hand). I also scan the newspaper to see what any model is being advertised for. That's where most dealerships will usually post their "rock bottom" (only one at this price) prices to get people in the door. Looking around the dealerships lot, to see what their stock situation is, proves helpful also in making a good deal. The more stock, the easier it is to make a good deal.
Before I walk into the showroom, I know what a car is going to cost, based on the above research. I cut right to the chase. If we're more than $100 or so off from what I'm offering and what the dealership wants, I think them for their time and move on.
I find that coming out of the shoot, telling the dealership you're going to drive home in a new car today, from someone, gets to a good deal in short order. Obviously, they're going to try to bump me from my offer....and, I'm going to push back a little to see how much further I can go. But, by that time, if they know a sale is imminent, it's pretty simple to get some concessions......15 minutes.....20 tops, should be all that's needed to make a deal.
When we need a major appliance, which has been pretty often lately, we usually end up at a small mom and pop store that somehow manages to survive. They know what they are talking about, deliver for free and are just downright nice people to deal with. Yes, we probably could have spent 20.00 less for the dishwasher we just bought
I don't care. I'm happy.
I don't think I ever said that a dealer's Service Dept. punsihes people who don't buy there. I'm sure there are places who do favors and go beyond the call of duty for their loyal customers and I can't blame them for that.
You're not the only one who is busy, I am too and when I make a major purchase I don't sit there forever to get the best deal. But guess what, getting near there really doesn't take much time. If done properly negotiating a very good price shouldn't take that long. I doubt that in buying a car I would spend more than 10-20 minutes more than someone coming in and making a take it or leave it offer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I can't imagine buying a big ticket item like a car if I didn't trust the place or people I'm buying from.
Trust of the dealership plays virtually no role in my shopping process. It becomes fairly irrelevant when you focus on buying the car, rather than trying to create a costly "relationship" that produces little, if no value. If the dealership has what I want in stock (or can order it with little drama), and it is relatively convenient to places where I tend to spend my time, that's good enough.
Same way with my real estate agent, my insurance agent, my appliance store, my clothing store, even my produce guy. If I don't trust them, I don't do business with them.
Some transactions require trust, others don't.
The dealership sells a car that was built by someone else. It has a warranty provided by the manufacturer, and service is available from a wide number of places.
I've done business with people who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them. A service business in which the seller's output greatly effects the result requires more trust than a product business in which the products are of uniform quality. A Honda is a Honda, and aside from a seller who goes way over the top (i.e. creating fake VIN numbers and selling used cars as new), I am going to the one is who is convenient and can deliver the product.
All I say, people assign monetary value to intangibles, such as convenience, comfort, experience, product knowledge, post-sale service, and what not. One may assign different amounts to each and every of those things than another and that's why there are still non-WalMarts out there, whatever challenges they may be facing now.
What I have a problem with is your sweeping blanket statements not only asserting that those intangibles have little or no value TO YOU (which I undertand), but they also suggest (not necessarily in open form) if they present some value to Mr. Smith, there is obviously something wrong with him.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
But, as I mentioned, anyone I'm going to do business with, I have to trust. It's saved me time, money, and offers me a certain amount of "perks" along the way.
Back to cars, I have a favorite/prefered dealership for just about every brand of car there is (short of the exotics). I know them. They know me. I trust them. They trust me. We make good deals together and they get my repeat business in the process (not only for myself, but my family, my neighbors and my friends).
All transactions require some degree of trust on both sides, if not your a sucker. Same with a dealer, there has to be some trust there. Maybe not to the degree that I trust them to have my back in a bar fight but enough to be sure that they are not selling me a car that was totaled during its delivery that they fixed up and are selling as brand new.
Now while I'll agree that a car is a somewhat homogeneous product (an Accord is an Accord regardless of which dealer you buy it from) and that it is warranted by the manufacturer and that it can be serviced anywhere there are some dealerships that I will not set foot into. Seriously there are at least three dealers in the Chicago area that the only way I would buy from them if they called me up told me that they would sell me the car at 50% of invoice with a 0% loan, free extended warrantee, 60K miles of free scheduled service and a free week vacation to Hawaii.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It makes more sense to always be prepared and prudent, and to prepare for the very real possibility that games will be played during the purchase process, regardless. Just so long as the dealer does the bare minimum and doesn't do anything extreme, I don't see why it's worth worrying about.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If you're finding that the people who are doing things that make you distrustful of them, why reward them with your business?
I'm having a hard time grasping that.
That's the reason I have preferred dealerships I do business with.....TRUST!
I would agree that you need some element of trust, but I would say that in the case of a car purchase, the desire for trust should be set at a very low bar.
Everything is a matter of priorities, and mine are the availability of inventory, price and the convenience of the location. Ultimately, most matters of trust can be mitigated by inspecting the car, not signing anything that you don't understand, and being fully cognizant of where your money is going. While it's nice if the salespeople are friendly, polite and such, it's not a requirement for me.
Graphic, some of us don't think it is important to trust people. Why is that hard for you to grasp?
I would agree if you are talking about a new car or a manufacturer CPO. For used cars, too many variables: some degree of trust is essential.
Dealer 1: Known sleazeball (others already warned you about him), offers you price of $19.7K, says it is 5.5% Apr, but at time of signing it becomes 7.5%, they feel free to add life insurance, the contract has additional $599 for paint sealant, fabric protection and first oil change, etc. You fight for next three hours to sterilize the contract to what you think will be acceptable numbers. Basically makes you anxious to wait for the confirmation letter from the bank as you don't really know if he possibly forged your signature on the contract and your next payment will be $100 more than that signed.
Dealer B: Offered you $20K, you know from others they don't put junk on, there was never instance of fraud allegation, everything will go quick and fast, he will try to sell you an extended warranty, which you may or may not not buy.
So is the possibility of saving $300 worth for you to go to place where they will try every single trick to actually vacuum more money from your pocket and it will take you a lot of time to fight off all those attempts? How about $100, or $50? Or to the others, is $1000 worth some of YOUR time to actually go through that ritual?
All I want to say, the borders are there, we all can quantify them, the values will be different. One will go 500 miles to squeeze 50 bucks, another will not move for a thousand or even two. Most of us fall somewhere in between, but it is our choice to make regardless what Socal will do or thinks.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Wow, that's a long question!
Dino, if you state your questions more simply, I will try to answer them.
Besides, you gave two examples, but your questions did not specifically refer to either example. Kind of odd.
-Due diligence: I'm not sure in advance whether I'd know which one is Dealer A and which one is Dealer B. I can ask around a bit, but at the end of the day I have to be prepared for whatever may happen
-Dealer A is the norm: Most dealers have some elements of conduct that resemble some aspect of Dealer A. I find it easier to be prepared for everyone to act like Dealer A than I would to spend days trying to find Dealer B, who may very well not exist
-Dealer A is easy to tame: It's simple -- I read my contracts, understand what I'm reading, and examine every term and number to be sure that everything is above board. If something is wrong, I will either have it fixed or walk out (and if you walk out, chances are good that the next contract won't have any problems.)
-Negotiation sets the tone: FWIW, in my experience, a negotiation that is well-managed will often result in fewer games being played at the back end, because you will have set the tone for the proceedings and it will become apparent that you are not going to be fooled. A dealer who is inclined to behave like Dealer A (most of them) will be more inclined to function like Dealer B if it becomes clear that the jig is up.
I think that Kirstie's example above illustrates what happens when you rely too heavily on trust. She laid her constraints on the table (she was in a hurry) and played the role of cooperative buyer (paid asking price, no fuss, no muss.)
How did the dealer reward her for abiding by their rules? By trying to screw her on the F&I process. Fortunately, she was able to avoid paying even more by eliminating the extras from her purchase agreement, but the review process was necessary in spite of her already having paid the niceness premium. This is just par for the course, and you have to be prepared for it.
Valid point, used cars do make reputation more important for a buyer. That being said, buying used cars from any dealer or sales lot presents an opportunity for problems, as they can be very good at concealing problems and laundering the title, so I'd always be careful, regardless. I would never buy any used car, including a CPO'd vehicle, without my own inspection.
1. you MAY save said $300, but you will have to look over absolutely every single detail during signing process and still will not be so sure if everything was really what you think (or was told) it was.
2. You WILL NOT save that $300, but you are almost certain the guy will not pull eleventh hour trick and whatever you were told, was a fact.
SO, IN EVEN SIMPLER FORM: Is your trust worth $300? For either answer what will be your "threshold", i.e. how much would it take to change your answer?
The point when you deal with someone not so trustworthy, you never really know (until you really know
2018 430i Gran Coupe
On the other hand, I just like to think there are behaviors in between and they CAN be quantified, which basically gets me back to the point that even if you and I think that $300 is too much for "feel good we all are friends" environment, I can still acknowledge that others may be willing to shell out said $300 and it's not a waste for THEM. They value things differently and we should respect that, too, even if for us a car is just a commodity (esp. popular models).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I realize that some people will willingly pay the "niceness premium". (If I was a car salesperson, you can bet that I would be trying to collect the "niceness premium" myself.) My point has been that I don't see the value in it, and I don't even know how I'd ensure that I would reap any benefits from it.
I see a tendency to overvalue the role of trust in a car purchase, particularly a new car purchase. In some businesses, trust is extremely important, and there are other benefits aside from price that are so vital that they are worth paying for, but for cars, I'm not seeing it. If you get the same car, the same service, the same warranty, etc., what exactly is it that I'm paying extra for?
There is almost no circumstance in which you can put your guard down with a car dealer, they all require a certain degree of vigilance. Their entire business model has some core values rooted in manipulative behavior, so you have no choice but to pay attention. That caution doesn't warrant rudeness or aggressiveness, but you have to always keep your eyes wide open in these situations, no matter how nice or how good their reputation allegedly may be.
Last time I signed something without reading it I ended up in boot camp.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Lets be honest, we also are advocating manipulative behavior on this forum.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Undoubtedly, we are. In a car purchase, I see there being no choice. There are simply too many incentives for the seller to lie and tell half-truths to simply accept things at face value.
Not quite about car purchases, but Steven Levitt's fine book Freakonomics provides a good basis for understanding. Levitt's basic premise is that a lot of behavior is quite logical if viewed in the context of the incentives that people have, and I see that applying to buying a car.
The fact that car sales are commission-based, highly competitive within the dealership (salespeople not just compete with other dealerships, but with their fellow salespeople), and multi-layered (sale, trade, financing, add-ons, insurance) creates very strong motivations for the dealership to attempt to manipulate buyers. Really, you can't blame them for trying -- the system is set up to encourage them to behave this way -- so you have little choice but to have an effective game plan of your own. Being totally upfront and completely straightforward is not generally going to be a good strategy for a buyer to use.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hard (for us)to believe what some people will put up with or how far they will drive to save 300.00!
If they save it at all!
You got this part partially wrong...the statement should be people are generally untrustworthy, until proven otherwise.
I never realized that car dealers are a separate class of species.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Just a small example: you own an Audi (or used to) as your nick suggests. Great car. However, others would say it's the most overpriced piece of junk humanity ever conceived, cause they value reliability over anything else. They would never pay "German engineering" premium, deeming it completely worthless, as even a nicest design is not worth a lot if the item is not working as designed.
Lets just disagree on value of "niceness premium" and simply move on.
2018 430i Gran Coupe