Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories
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In this case, it is helpful for salespeople to provide info on some strategies that will or will not help to meet this goal. We LIKE having perspective from both sides, because it allows the consumer to read through ALL of the proposals, and the select which elements are the most applicable to him/her. No one strategy is going to be comfortable for every shopper, because not every shopper has the same goals.
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What about shopping at non-dealership places (ma and pop)??
I would be leery of them, especially if they are one of those buy here/pay here places. Some times the buy here/pay here places sell a car repossess it and sell it again, maybe several times over. I wouldn't want that car. Plus you can get a better warranty from a dealer.
The car was in excellent shape on the outside but was in not so great shape on the inside (the carpet was dirty and stained, the speaker cover on the one side was split, the sun visors had these weird rub spots on them possibly from a cd holder but who knows).
That can be used to your advantage. If they say that car is $4,000 you can start questioning why so much for such a dirty interior, or something like that to try to get them to start coming down in price.
Other than that I would agree with what Socal wrote. And I will emphasize learn how to inspect a car and give it a very good test drive.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Personally, I'm not a control freak. When I walk in to buy a car, I've done my research....here and elsewhere. I take note of the stock the dealer has on hand. I base my offer on the research and observations made. I don't have an issue making the first offer. I'm confident that what I offer is a good deal for me. I've bought enough cars to know I don't think I leave much, if any, money on the table. So, I just cut to the chase. No games. No waiting to get the dealer to make the first offer.
I tell them up front "I like your Hupmobile....I want to buy it.....here's my offer". They either say "yes" or "no" to the deal....or they try to bump me. If we're close, I ask for something in return for the bump (oil changes, tire rotations, etc). If we're not close, I move on. 10-15-20 minutes later, we either have a deal, or we don't.
I've got my own "quirks" when buying a car. I don't buy on a busy Saturday. I buy during the week, when the dealership has a slow day. I talk to the service people to see what they're like. I watch the sales people and choose the one I want to do business with (this keeps me from dealing with those dealerships that use the "up" system, for the most part).
Matter of fact, I've bought so many cars for myself, and helped others in my family buy cars, that I know most of the GMs at the dealerships around me because we've crossed paths. When I get ready to buy something, I usually call them. They have whatever car I'm interested in ready for a test drive, and a salesperson ready to assist. They tell me up front what it will cost to get a deal done. I either agree with them, or I don't. It's really that simple.
All those things go into making my deal.
All that said, I do qualify for a lot of employee or supplier pricing for a lot of brands. So, that's even simpler and makes for an even better deal.
Its in every ones best interest to create a win-win situation (or the perception of one), if you didn't have it you wouldn't have a sale. That being said there is not just one price point where its a win-win situation. A win-win situation for the new GasGuzzler 2000 might be between $25K and $27,500. In that case it is the salesman job to get it as close to $27,500 as possible. The buyer would want to get as close to $25K as possible.
With that there are time issues, the salesman needs to move from one buyer to another in a relatively short amount od time. The buyer isn't going to move to the next seller for several more years.
For those reasons the salesman will most likely want the buyer to use tactics that may not be in the best of the buyer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm sorry, but that's not accurate. Car dealers do seek to create time investment from the buyer, they are not interested in extremely fast transactions. The "TO" (turnover) system, which involves three people in the selling process (salesperson, sales manager, F&I) is used in part to combine time pressures with a ganging-up process that is meant to work against the buyer.
The goals of this are to get the buyer to pay more by becoming confused or uncertain of the purchase process, and to make the purchase process just difficult enough to discourage the buyer from going elsewhere. It is NOT to make the transaction easy for the customer, unless ease results in high prices.
As for a "win win", this is not necessarily the goal of the seller, and it shouldn't usually be the goal of the average car buyer. For purposes of this discussion, I'll define win-win" as a deal in which both parties strive to meet the goals of the other, with the goal of both to be pleased that they wish to continue to do business together in subsequent transactions.
The key to the difference between a "win win" and a "win lose" is this desire to truly satisfy the other party's objectives, which is not meaningful to the average consumer whose car purchases are infrequent and for whom the relationship provides no added benefit. For a fleet buyer or a buyer of exotics, for example, a relationship might make sense because price priorities may be offset by other needs, i.e. sourcing scarce inventories, timely delivery, etc., but for the average buyer who car shops on rare occasion, there's not much point in worrying about this. Win-wins generally result in buyers paying more money (cash is the grease the keeps relationships going), so why part with the money if spending it won't do any good?
I know most of the people in the biz at the dealerships around me. There's a trust factor there.....on both sides. They know my offers are fair. And, I know they are offering me a good deal. There have been times I didn't even sit down at their desk. Salespeople go through some turnover, but the managers and principle's at the dealerships do not. So, with my initial phone calls to those folks, it's pretty much a done deal before I even get into the showroom.
Those types of relationships got me a Mustang GT when they were first introduced (and couldn't be found) for X plan (under invoice)...as an example. Called the GM. Told him what I wanted. They know if I make the call, I'm a "buyer". Did the whole thing over the phone. He also knows that I've bought at least 4 cars at thier stores for family members over the last several years.
I buy most of my cars like that. Same with my current Acura and my 4Runner. We agreed on a price before I even stepped foot in their door.
Craig....you and I have talked in the past. Wish you were with a local dealership (OH). We'd have a good, long lasting business relationship.
I'm curious -- why the repeated effort to cite lowball figures? If you are an effective negotiator, you will be obtaining far greater concessions than just $50. We've seen above in this thread examples of people cutting purchase prices by hundreds, and even thousands of dollars, not just $50.
This method you've described above ensures that you will pay quite a bit more than you had to. The dealership is obviously happy with it, which I would take as a warning sign.
That's why I don't post my prices paid on the forums - there's always somebody who's eager to tell you that you got a bad deal, whether they know anything about it or not. Forget them and enjoy your ride man.
The methodology is sufficiently flawed that it this an easy conclusion to reach. The let's-make-friends-with-the-dealership approach, combined with getting-the-lowest-price-is-too-difficult mindset and the I'm-in-a-hurry-to-finish message, is pretty much a guarantee that a high price will be paid.
Those are pretty critical errors that each contribute to paying a higher price. If that makes you happy, fine, but that is not a strategy for paying low prices.
I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. It has helped me out as far as what I obviously need to work on when looking at used cars.
Of course, that's true. I have no problem with your efforts to make more money, I'm just pointing out that the higher margin deal isn't coming from people like me. You absolutely should be expected to play for your side of the house, but I am going to play for mine, too.
Yet, the dealership will not walk away from a RESONABLE offer. REASONABLE will vary by the vehicle, dealership and personalities involved.
Agree again. Throughout the thread, my point has been that this "reasonable" price is often lower than what many buyers believe it is.
Relationships built over time can benefit both buyer and seller.
And that's where we differ. In car sales, the relationship is generally far more beneficial for the seller than it is for the buyer. If I was buying Bentleys, then the relationship might be valid, but for your average Honda or Chevy (or that matter, a BMW or Mercedes) buyer who patronizes the showroom every few years, the "relationship" usually involves trading a higher price for nothing in particular.
By setting up business relationships, I'd say I probably pay a lot less on some of my purchases, as I pointed out in the Mustang scenario. When I bought it, there wasn't one to be found within a 250 mile radius of me. On top of that, dealers had addendum stickers on them because they were such a hot item. There were waiting lists months long for them. But, having set up a relationship with the SM, all it took was a phone call to him telling him I wanted one. He knows I'm a buyer. He honored X plan even though the going rate was MSRP at the time (BTW, I sold it for more than I paid for it 9 months later....as a used car).
Same with my most recent purchase....an Acura TL. Spoke to the Sales Manager on the phone to see if they had the color I wanted. Asked him if he'd be willing to do a deal at $xxx over invoice for a quick sale.... taking delivery TODAY! He was! I made an appointment with the designated sales person. They had the car shined up and ready for my test drive before I even got there. Even the paperwork was done waiting for me when I arrived. Looking at the "prices paid" forum here, I'd say I was within $50 of the very best deal I saw posted.
I'd venture to say I'm within $100 higher or lower than the price you "grind" over the course of time sitting at the sales person's desk....on most cars....probably much less than that on others. Difference is, mine is done in a few minutes....with no adversarial "back and forth" transpiring.
Point being, knowing the market (local newspaper will tell you the going rate for the car you're interested in), knowing their stock situation, knowing the car before you walk in and the promise of a quick sale will go further in getting a good deal than "grinding and grinding" (and you still may not buy from them, after all that). It makes it a whole lot easier, too.
But, each person buys cars differently. I like the way I buy. You like the way you buy.
Me: So when I pull a carfax report and look at the owner section what is a reasonable amount of owners for a car?? I also see that some cars are at the dealership for x amount of time, then are sold again at an auto auction, then are at dealer number 2, is that something to be concerned with??
Anyway, truely appreciate the response and will try and learn how to inspect a used car.
Again, this is exactly the mischaracterization that I'm talking about.
My point throughout has been that good negotiation doesn't generally take very long at all.
And I avoid being adversarial. Even if the dealer may choose to play that card, I generally will not.
Again, I find it funny to keep hearing this "four hours spent getting $100" rhetoric. The negotiation portion of my last purchase took perhaps 20 minutes of bona fide haggle-time, most of my time was spent in the friendly pre-haggle banter, test driving (something that I need to do, anyway), etc. If I spent four hours to get just $100, I don't think I'd be terribly good at what I do.
Since a negotiation by its very nature is a confrontation you cannot negotiate in a no confrontational manner. Sure you can do it politely and with respect, but it still is a confrontation.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If thats the case have you thought about new? There are plenty of cars that you can get new at well below $20K and there are some to be had for under $15K. This will only increase your payments by a little (vs a 12K used car) or extend the payments by no more than a year. That way you will have a brand new clean car that should be worry free.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually, relationship means a lot at many dealers. I will make sure that my repeat buyers get the best price I can offer on the next purchase. Also, my customers get me as well. I become involved in any problems that may arise during thier ownership. The relationship extends to the service department as well. Preferential tratment regarding service appointments and insuring the loaner car is our product and not a rental if possible are examples. I do agree that many low end dealers just care about the deal of the moment. But at high end that is not usually the case. You would also be suprised by the number of ridiculous offers we get from supossedly educated buyers. Actually, the easiest deal for me is where the cusomer knows the TMV for our product and market for both the trade and the new car. It makes for a quick win win. By the way, the true defenition of win-win is where both parties are satisfied. Not that the buyer or seller squeezed the last nickle out of the other.
About a year ago, I bought a new Toyota Tacoma. The day after I bought it, I was driving in a parking lot and the brakes went out. While I was fortunate enough not to be driving very fast, in order to stop it, I had to find something to "ram into" that wouldn't hurt me or someone else. I chose a sidewalk that was about a foot higher than the driving surface.
I know the Toyota dealer's owner. His daughter is actually the GM. I called her up....told her what happened. She immediately sent a tow truck AND a new Camry for me to use while they tried to find out what went wrong with the truck. Long story short....she went to bat with Toyota corporate to take the truck back (which they did). While they didn't have another Tacoma that I liked, she knew I had also been interested in a 4Runner. So, she gave me a choice, they could give me my money back on the Tacoma ....or, I could buy a 4Runner, at their cost (including their holdback deducted) just so they could keep me as a customer.
While I had purchased other vehicles from them, who do you think I'm going to recommend for anyone else looking for a Toyota.
I was treated superbly by them. Also got a whale of a deal.
For the situation you described at least they tried to make it right.I guess that's something.
Do I make an offer based on the invoice,msrp or tmv?
Thanks, Jqdrum
Based on Invoice, MSRP and TMV and general market trend,and make an offfer of what you want to pay based on that information and your budget.
Good Luck!
If he is happy it is not a bad deal!!
And just one thing to those who think their advice is more sound than a salesperson.
When you shop for jewerly who would you rather go with you? The person who has bought a whole lot of jewerly? Or the person in the jewelery business?
It depends. If the jewelry store owner is going to always look for justifications to pay more money, while the buyer is a savvy one who knows what he's doing, I'd rather go with the buyer. I want my advocate to play for my team, not the other guy's.
But I'm not one of those people who go through life obsessed with paying the least possible dollar for everything. For me, that would be a miserable life.
Life is short...to each his own.
Snake raises a valid point about looking at new cars. If you are going to use financing, you should be able to obtain a lower interest rate on a new car loan than on a used car loan. If you look way back through the thread, you'll find a bit of information about financing that you might find useful.
A basic theme on this thread has been to have your loan pre-approved before you ever set foot on the lot. It's not necessarily a bad thing to borrow from the dealer, but you'll have the leverage to negotiate much better terms if you have your own financing alternative.
I think you nailed it. It was a smart move for the dealer to protect himself from the threat of litigation. And the dealer would rather hold the manufacturer responsible than to have the finger pointed back at him, i.e. a sloppy PDI that could have made the accident his responsibility. It might have been good customer service, but the self-serving element is pretty obvious.
I want someone who will act as my advocate, not someone who will keep justifying the other side's positions.
For the most part, the salespeople on this thread have offered justifications as to why we should be happy to pay more, rather than solid in-the-trenches advice about how to reduce purchase prices. You apparently have more empathy for the car dealer's position than you do for the consumer. To be most helpful, you need to be willing to swap hats when rendering advice, otherwise you are merely being an advocate for the opposing party, not us.
If my father was a car salesman then I might just find a way to trust what he says and he's probably got my interests at heart. Are you saying that you can trust a salesman as long as he/she is related to you?
Other people just obsess over money. They go through life worrying that someone may have paid "too much" for something.
These people don't understand us, and we don't understand them. They think we are foolish to spend more money then we have to and we think they are cheapskates.
Nobody is going to change anyone else's posture on this.
The quote was from Maaco
Okay all you car salespeople out there, this question is for you guys! Would you laugh at me and offer me $50 for the car when I drive into your lot? It's a 2000 and has 89000 miles on it.
I should have known better than to try to answer another hostile poster.
As for one price dealers, I've been told they have better grosses that stores that negotiate.