Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories

driftracer

We had our old second car, a 1991 Pontiac Grand Prix, for sale in our driveway about a year ago. It was parked most of the time, but I used it when I needed, and both boys learned to drive on it. After they both got their licenses and got cars, we decided to sell it.

I started counting and keeping track of the calls - I got 43 calls over 2 weeks, only two were serious, in my opinion, and all but 5 were AFTER 10:00 at night, mostly with insane questions or $50 offers.

I ended up selling it to a guy who just moved here from Peurto Rico and worked the drive-up window at the local Wendy's. He saw the sign, asked how much, told me he'd be at my house at 6 with his brother, and they paid me cash, I signed the title, done deal.

This isn't a process for the easily bothered or weak, for sure. I can't even imagine what it would be like to sell something hot (Mustang, Camaro, Prelude, Eclipse) or in high-demand...that would be wild, and not worth it!

jlawrence01

We used to live in a rough neighborhood in St. Louis. We decided in 1993 to get rid of the 1980 Malibu. We hung a FOR SALE sign in a car window Sunday morning and went to church.

On the way home, we noticed a car following us. Then there were two. And then three.

We would turn and all the other cars would turn. Finally, we got to the house. Three guys jump out and we have an impromptu auction. We had planned to ask $650 and take $500. We stopped it at $850 and told all three that we would sell the car for the first $850 in cash - and we got it the next day.

Although we won, NEVER AGAIN!!!

isellhondas

Well, I don't think a person can ALWAYS get more by sellint their own trade. As driftracer pointed out, the sales tax credit can add up to big bucks. In my neck of the woods, our tax is a whopping 9.1%. By the time a person pays for an ad etc it's often not worth it.

Then, deal with flakes, test drivers, people who want to take it to their mechanic who will trash it with a long laundry list of things it "needs".

Then the liability. The transmission fails in a month and you get taken to small claims court?

thenebean

i think i may have said almost always? too lazy to go back and look. and yeah, all the people who sell on their own - they end up playing the salespersons role! its an interesting role reversal ;-)

i think for the convenience, trade the car in - unless you know someone who would buy it from you personally. just my 2 cents

Kirstie_H

That's what happens when you live in Wellston

jezebel

Is this a good strategy, or a bad one?

I think I read about this in Lemon Aid, to give credit where due. Supposedly, buying at the end of the month is a good idea because salesmen might be trying to make some quota..

In the morning, a man sent a fax to 5 or 6 area dealers for the same car company (let's say, Mazda). He told them he was looking to buy a specific model and was willing to finalize the deal that day. He told them the finish level he wanted, automatic transmission, etc... but he was flexible on smaller options (eg, colour, spoiler, etc). He told them he was sending his request to several dealers, and if he was satisfied, he would go in that afternoon to the dealer with the best offer and sign an agreement.

Is this a good strategy? Can you get a better deal if you convince a dealer you will buy that day? (assuming you're also shopping around, so they know you're not willing to pay more to buy that exact day..) Or is this too complicated when you have to deal with trade-in values and financing rates?

What if you visit a few dealers ahead of time, and then contact all of the salesmen you'd dealt with previously, an give them the one-day ultimatum?

Or is it just as smart just to decide on the best dealer to buy from, then call the other salesmen you've been dealing with, and tell them you're going to go with another dealer... with hopes that they may beat the better deal just to get the sale? Is there any truth to the "end of the month" guideline for buying??

isellhondas

And most dealers don't take them seriously because they usually are not.

If a customer walks on the showroom floor and says..." I'm buying a car today" or "Who wants to sell a car today", the veterans will scatter.

Kirstie_H

between walking in and announcing your intentions and making your intentions clear to the salesperson, though. I think it's important to let the salesperson know that you are a serious buyer and, if an agreement can be reached, you plan to buy the car that day.

audia8q

I agree with IsellHonda and kirstie....a fax sent all over the place isnt always taken seriously. If your buying a fleet of cars and your looking for a bid, a fax works fine...

OTOH, if I have a guy sitting in front of me who has selected a car in stock and says "if we can work out the figures I am prepared to buy the car RIGHT NOW" ...now I have a real person, real buyer...this guy gets all the attention...

p.s. whatever you do, don't walk into the showrrom and announce something like "who wants to sell a car today"...thats the kiss of death.

bobst

The internet approach works great. I sent out internet messages to the five local Honda dealers asking for OTD prices for a specific kind of car. Two didn't have the kind of car we wanted, and the other three gave me quotes very quickly.

We went to the dealer who gave us the lowest quote, offered a few hundred dollars less, and they accepted.

I would do it the same way again. I can't see why a similar approach with faxes would not work just as well.

bobst

OK, we need a volunteer to go into a dealership and say in a loud voice, "who wants to sell me a car today?"

I think we are all curious to find out what would happen.

buck0086

I've been reading the posts for a couple of weeks now and I'd love to read in depth about your strategy for buying a car. I saw the steps listed in a previous post the other day, but do you happen to have something that goes into a little more detail? Thanks.

bobst

Nope, there ain't no more details, Buck. This is all there is to it:

1) Decide what kind of car you want.

2) Do research to determine the price you are willing to pay.

3) Offer that price and see if they accept.

danf1

You forgot our favorite part Bob.

4) If your offer is not accepted, bobst down to the next dealership and increase your offer by $100.

thenebean

why not stay at the same dealership and see if you cant get to a price thats fair for you and for them? why waste your time driving to another dealership for $100? My suggestion is to do your research (like bobst said), decide on a low price you'd love to get the car for, and a price that you dont want to go over. if they accept an offer between there, buy the car. going to another dealership to go through the whole process again doesn't make sense to me to save $200 bucks. my time is more valuable to me than $200! but thats just my opinion though...if the $200 is so important to you, by all means, drive around all day til someone accepts your offer.

corvette

Because you would have bumped your offer $100 before you knew for sure they didn't accept the original offer. They don't not accept the original offer until you get in the car and leave.

thenebean

and if the next guy doesnt accept, and the next guy? again, it begs the question - is it really worth your time? you should know what you can afford, and what seems fair to you. (with all the holdback and invoice information out there, you practically dont need salespeople!) a dealer is going to want to at LEAST keep $3-400 in holdback. if you give him that, your offer should be accepted no problem (if you look at a car that only has $400 in holdback, leave like $150-$200 and he should take the deal) take it for what its worth - again, if you feel like driving, have fun!

danf1

The main reason he will go to the next dealership is because he refuses to negotiate. By offering more money at the same dealership, you have discredited yourself by saying how much you were willing to pay in the first place.

thenebean

who says you are discrediting yourself? dealers are willing to negotiate, but when you start at invoice or below, there isnt much room on our end to negotiate. it is a business, and a deal doesnt have to be done if both sides are not happy. if you want to walk fine. i just think its silly to waste your time driving from dealer to dealer. especially if you go to a dealer that treats you well, is local, and has done all the leg work (taken you for a test drive, telling you about the car). its only fair to the salesperson who spent their time with you to give them a fair shot. try indian splitting (meaning take the difference of where they are and where you are and make an offer in the middle somewhere). most dealerships as far as i know would try to make a deal if it looks like the consumer is willing to work with them as well. its not all take take take and no give.

but again, if you want to drive and spend your day trying to save $200 - by all means!

isellhondas

To me, anyway, to watch the pain some people will put themselves through in their zeal to pay the lowest possible price for a car!

But, that's me...

thenebean

i agree. it really isnt a tough process, but sometimes consumers make it that way in their effort to save some money. again, all the information is online anyways - you should know what a fair price is. Spending days upon days upon days pitting dealers against each other is a waste of your time, my time, and makes everyone unhappy. we all own the car for the same ammount - if you save anything, it would only be a few bucks at most.

by selling cars, you learn the best way to BUY cars

keep it up isell, you have some great input on here and i appreciate having someone else see things from the other side of the desk!

happy motoring!

Kirstie_H

But we're talking about bobst's method, which obviously does work for bobst. Bobst is not guaranteeing that everyone will experience the same comfort level that he does with the Bobst method. I have not seen Bobst complain about the amount of time he has to spend buying when using the Bobst method.

Now, the Bobst method would NOT be my cup o' tea, but just as salespeople come in many styles, so do customers.

bobst

"decide on a low price you'd love to get the car for, and a price that you dont want to go over"

Thene, that is what I do. Then we offer the price that we won't go over. Makes it simpler that way.

thenebean

it does. it makes it easy for all of us. there are so many ways to make car shopping easy - but people are afraid if they dont fight and haggle, they will get ripped off. if you are educated, know the numbers, know the process - you'll be fine. fear is what makes this process so hard. bobst, your method sounds fair and easy to deal with. i am just trying to share the dealership side of things so people know there is nothing to be afraid of if they have all of the CORRECT information when looking to purchase a car. myths like "dealers get so much money back from the factory when they sell cars" and "invoices arent real" dont help the situation.

people have mentioned this before (here and other forums) to have an out the door price and shop that way. it really is an effective and simple way to shop. hopefully i can help at least some of you make this process more pleasant! I do my best where i work to make it as easy as possible. i am honest about holdback, incentives, and how things work. no need to be afraid - just know the facts before going in.

if anyone has any questions i can help with, i'd be more than happy to help.

happy motoring!

thene

here4thekids

Hi all. I have been shopping around for an 05' PT Cruiser Touring ed. I have found one that I like and would love to buy it but the dealer has been a real ahole. If is a brand new black Touring Ed. that has automatic transmission, tints, and a lighting package. The MSRP is $17,730 after everything. I have a cousin who sells cars who told me what to do and ask for when I negotiate.

First thing I did was ask for THEIR invoice price, not the invoice price that the Chrysler manufacturer suggests which is the invoice price most people see. Initially he was shocked and surprised to say the least, and then he told me that the do not let customers see this (which started everything off bad). Then we started talking rebates and etc. and I told him that I wanted to talk initial price first and then work with the incentives. I explained that I was not interested in the extra $700 worth of options that was included and asked for him to throw it in. He declined to do so. So I went on with the negotiating process to see what type of deal I could get. The dealer then told me that the price was FIXED. I said, "What, LOL FIXED! Alright then, give me your price so I can leave." So after everything is done I got a quote for $15,032 with the rebates, taxes, and fees. Not really what I was looking for. There is only two more in the area so I am going to look at those today and see what I can get for one of them.

I have a couple questions though. Should I have asked to see their invoice, do most of them show their invoices, and does anyone have any idea how much they pay for a PT? Also, any idea on what I should be looking to get the price down to (talking initial price-the MSRP) in order to be fair and not get raped? And lastly if the dealer is not trying to budge then should I just shop at another dealer or should I try to work something out with the sales manager? If anyone can answer these questions for me please do so because I am looking to buy before the end of the month. Feel free to send your response to my email addy, proane277@aol.com. Thanks in advance

bobst

I agree with what you said: "people know there is nothing to be afraid of if they have all of the CORRECT information when looking to purchase a car".

How do you suggest we get the CORRECT information?

We can read a lot of stuff on this and other web sites and in the Prices Paid forum, but how do we know which information is CORRECT?

bobst

You said their price of $15032 was "Not really what I was looking for".

That implies you know what price you were looking for.

Why not offer a dealer your price and see if they accept?

asafonov

it really isnt a tough process, but sometimes consumers make it that way in their effort to save some money. again, all the information is online anyways - you should know what a fair price is.

Quite frankly, (and I posted this before), I don't care what the fair price is. Subject to the constraints of convenience and dealer reputation, I want the lowest possible price, same as the dealer wanting to sell for the highest possible price. When you are buying (or, for a better example, selling) a house, do you settle for a fair price? Fair to whom?

Spending days upon days upon days pitting dealers against each other is a waste of your time, my time, and makes everyone unhappy.

That's a nice misrepresentation of bobst's method. He specifically avoids dealer bidding wars, and, if I understand his method correctly, he does not visit the same dealership twice.

we all own the car for the same ammount - if you save anything, it would only be a few bucks at most.

3 email quotes I received through Edmunds differed by almost 1k, not "a few bucks."

buck0086

Where can I get detailed information on how much holdback is? Thanks.

kyfdx

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incentives/holdback/index.html

here4thekids

Bobst

To tell you the truth I am looking to pay in the low $14,000 after everything is done. I would like that be the OTD price. But the reason I did not make an offer was becuase that was my first time talking prices with the dealer. I kind of wanted to see how it works and what the whole process is like. In addition I wanted to see a real invoice price before I started to really talk price. Like I said, my cousin who is a dealer tlold me to ask for their invoice price and if you can't get it then don't even worry about doing business with them. So I took his advice. It might have been advice but I figured he new more than I do, especially since he is in this business. But as far as the other questions are concerned, do you think you can help me out with those? Thanks for the response.

bobst

1) There was no reason asking for their invoice price, unless you like wasting your time in long, useless discussions.

2) Should you "try to work something out with the sales manager?" Sure. The way to do it is to make an offer and see if he accepts.

Don't waste your time and his time by talking a lot. He doesn't care what you have to say. All he wants to know is how much you are willing to pay.

If he refuses your offer, then come back here for some more advice.

Car buying is so simple and enjoyable if you do it in a step-by-step logical manner. QED

osubeav

I like using the carsdirect price as a starting point. Just for grins, I put in the options you mentioned and came up the same MSRP as you mentioned. The carsdirect price came out to $15800 (with the $1000 financing rebate). They charge $500 for their service, so $15300. Invoice was listed at $17,100.

Seems like you got a pretty good offer. Unless there are some additional rebates, I don't know if you will be able to get to $14000. You might wait a couple of months to see if Chrysler will raise their rebates, though the selection goes down over time (also the interest rates will probably go up).

here4thekids

Osubeav,

Yeah there is one other rebate. There is a $1000 cash back rebate and then there is a $1000 rebate if you finance through Chrylser. In addition, I heard something about a recent grad. program that Chrylser offers. So, I guess if you throw these other rebates in the price gets down to what I want.

Thanks for the information on the cadsdirect price. This helps alot. So know should I go in and talk these prices and see what they say or do the email thing that I have seen some people talk about? If I can get it to about $14,300 that would probably get the deal done. Thanks again.

here4thekids

And also I think that he might have made a mistake. He was a new dealer and he ended up putting $3000 for rebates. Of course I did not say anything, but everything I have checked thus far only mentions $2000 worth of rebates and incentives.

osubeav

The $2000 in rebates was counted in the price I was referring to. If he counted $3000 in rebates and gave you that price, then it wasn't a great quote.

Maybe Chrysler has a "hidden" rebate, like GM does right now, for stock that has been on the lot for a certain amount of time.

At first glance, $15000 sounds like a good quote. Any additional things they can find is gravy at this point.

thenebean

i am not commenting on bobst's method - i think its a good way to shop. know what you want. what i am commenting on is in general for those who start dealers in bidding wars. (unless you do it over internet which i think is THE best way to shop!)

i am not trying to start a fight over who is right or wrong here asafonov - i am just trying to point out the other side of the sales process. if you dont want to care what is fair to us, why should we care whats fair to you? i dont think it should be that way. if you are happy with the price, and we are happy with the price, the it's a good deal. both sides need to be happy. if you come in and want $1000 below holdback plus rebates, and we cant do it, its not because we're trying to rip you off. this whole idea of "were always trying to rip you off" is what makes people so scared to buy a car. yes, you do have to be careful, i cant say all dealerships are the most ethical, but i also dont think its fair to paint everyone with the same brush.

again, not trying to start wars, or blame one side or the other. but a lack of understanding on both sides can make car buying a real mess!

-thene

seden

I am looking at buying a Honda Accord. Does anyone have opinions on any dealerships in the Ft.Worth Texas area? I am a single woman and I am already a little intimidated, so it would be nice to go somewhere others have had good experiences. Thanks

thenebean

buck,

holdback varies from company to company. every one calculates it differently. the most common one is anywhere from 2-3% of invoice. like someone mentioned, there is a link on edmunds that lists the exact holdback formulas each company uses. good luck!

bobst,

as far as CORRECT information, i mean knowing what real holdback is (like listed here on edmunds) what real invoice is (there is no your invoice, my invoice - invoice is invoice, and holdback is given to us after a car is sold - we do really write a check to nissan for the amount listed on the invoice). always going in thinking there is exorbant amounts of money the dealer isnt telling you about is false. there are certain times the factory has special dealer incentives to try and sell certain vehicles, and after they sell x number of titans lets say, the factory will pay the dealer x number of dollars for each one. but ONLY after they hit the target number in the first place.

there are a lot of things - lots of information. but if you can find a few people on edmunds forums that you can pick their brains on (isell, terry, myself) we'd be happy to help. anything that makes the process easier for both of us!

hopefully that helps - again, anything i can do - car buying should be fun, not scary!

-thene

bobst

You said that "going in thinking there is exorbant amounts of money the dealer isnt telling you about is false".

Based on my experience, your statement is wrong. We bought our 1995 Nissan for $100 over invoice. The dealer didn't tell me there there was a $1000 dealer incentive at that time.

bobst

You said, "car buying should be fun, not scary!"

I agree it should be fun, but I also like it being kind of scary. Like playing a long par 3 over water.

Before hitting the shot, it's fun to look at the poor litle helpless golf ball and think, "I wonder what will happen to you this time." I feel slmost the same way when we go to buy a car.

isellhondas

Sorry, but after reading your post it sounds, to me, anyway, that you walked in there with a combative attitude.

Would you ask a guy selling a recliner in a furniture store what the store paid for it?

Invoice prices and holdback mean nothing anyway. It's the MARKET VALUE that determines pricing.

I think your cousin gave you poor advise.

thenebean

you mean like a rebate? they forgot to tell you about the rebate? ouch! there may be some dealers still out there that are sketchy in their practices - so you should still be careful - but not paranoid. that experience you had isnt the norm, thats for sure!

bobst

It was a dealer incentive that I found out about later. They had no need to tell us about it.

It was just one of those "exorbant amounts of money the dealer isnt telling you about", to use your words.

asafonov

i am commenting on is in general for those who start dealers in bidding wars. (unless you do it over internet which i think is THE best way to shop!) I agree, but my sample is very small, and many dealers on this board mention the low closing rate for the internet leads.

i am not trying to start a fight over who is right or wrong here asafonov - i am just trying to point out the other side of the sales process.

Thank you for that. But this is useful as long as it helps to educate buyers to make better decisions, not when "the other side of the sales process" boils down to "dealers need to make money, too" - not that this was all you wrote.

if you dont want to care what is fair to us, why should we care whats fair to you?
The dealership should not care what is fair to the customer; it should try to (honestly) sell vehicles for the highest price the market should bear. Buyers have a similar but complementary challenges - this is not about fairness. It is a zero-sum game (subject, as I wrote above, to the location/convenience and dealer reputation constraints - I would not buy from a sleazy dealer selling for $500 less OTD.)

To repeat my question, when you sell your personal residence, would you accept what is fair (how is that defined) to the buyer or hold out for the highest price?

thenebean

thanks for your response - this has always been, and seemingly always will be a touchy subject for both sides. it is about educating buyers, as well as telling you the mentallity of the managers on the dealership side. there are great deals to be had, and i've seen some fantastic ones go through. i dont think in the time i've been here, have i seen anyone get "screwed" by what they paid. the first thing i learned about consumers is that THEY have the greatest negotiating tool...their feet! if you are ever uncomfortable or unhappy, just walk out.

with regards to your question, if i put my house on the market for say, $200,000 and the first day i got an offer for $170,000, i would not sell. obviously, as you have stated, you want to try to get as much as possible (as do the dealers) but the buyer of my house wants to get a great deal. its always push and pull...if someone offered $190, i would seriously consider it - but there are other factors that would be involved that may make my decision or not.

i define fair as something that works for both sides - like a compromise. If you are happy with the price you are getting, as is the dealership, that is fair. if you can get a ridiculous price accepted by the dealership, then thats great - it just may depend on circumstances regarding how the month is going, or if a car has been around for a while.

again, there are so many circumstances that its hard to cover them all. if people have any questions, let me know - i want to make people enjoy the process, not be scared of it!

-thene

thenebean

oh, and regarding internet - closing ratios are horrible! but, it is the best way (i feel) for a consumer to get a great deal. I am the internet manager at my dealership, and while i have to wade through some useless and bogus requests, the people who have bought have been pleased with the experience!

just my .02

here4thekids

Thanks for your response to my post. All the information, feedback, and stories are very helpful.

Let me tell you about my experience today and let me know what you think. I went to one dealership who said they will find the car for me and that they will bet any other dealer's price no matter what. All they asked was that I bring back the price on an official letter so that they could verify that it was legit. I told him that I would bring something in and then left.

So I left and went to another dealership. The have the exact car on the lot that I want and I was pleasantly surprised to see that they had a $1000 sale on it in addition to the $1000 cash back rebate and the $1000 incentive for financing with Chrysler. So I started talking price with the dealer and he came up $15,700 plus $835 for taxes, and $180 for tags for a total of $16,725 if I did not finance with Chrysler. If I did it would be $15,725. But I told the dealer that I would probably finance through my credit union which gave me 3.9% and he told me honestly that this would probably be best. After this he told me that there were two more incentives that I might want to look into. The first was that if I was willing to buy today or tomorrow than we could get that price down some more. Secondly, he stated that there is an incentive that I could get another $750 off and still finance with my credit union but only if I did this for one more year (6 years instead of five). So overall it was a good experience and I liked the offer that I received.

Lastly I then went to one more dealership, which happened to be the first dealership that I spoke of in my original post. This was the one who was trying to charge the "Fixed Price" for the car, LOL. I took the other dealership's offer to them and asked if they could beat that. The salesperson looked at the price and said how did you feel when you received this offer. I stated, "honestly when I say it I was quite impressed because I had been to 5 dealerships and none of them had a sale on the 2005 Touring model." He said well yeah you should have been because this is a great price!! I then asked him to take it to his sales manager and see if there is anything he could do. The salesperson came back and said nope we can't beat that. The lowest we can go is $16,100 before tags and taxes. He said honestly you should go with this dealer because this deal would be nearly impossible to beat.

So that is my story. I am going to go back to the one dealership who stated they can get it lower than anyone else and see if he truly can. The only thing is they don't have it on lot and I did not get the price written down on an official letter. I asked the dealer to write it up on something official but he was too smart for that. I tried every trick in the book but he denied every one of them because he knew I would probably take it to another dealer. So if he can't do anything I will go back to the second dealer and see what I can get. So do you think this is a good move? Aslo should I look into the 5 year finance or the 6 yeah with the $750 incentive? I have not done the financial work yet but just looking for advice. Also, the dealer is giving me a good deal at $15,700 before financing so how much more should I try to bargain down to? Do you think 15,000 would be too much, I want to be fair. Thanks again for your help.

here4thekids

Isellhondas

You could just as well be correct in stating that I went in there with a combative attitude. I do not know how I came off but only followed the advice that my cousin gave to me. He could have and probably did give me poor advice if that is what you state. The point is he was a dealer and this was his advice to me. I figured he would tell me better than anyone else. My cousin said that I should take the invoice price and the MSRP price, find the difference and split it. He said this would be a fair offer price. Was he correct in saying this?

The thing about asking for the invoice might of started everything off wrong and made him feel like I wasn't worth dealing with. I personally don't know. The thing is that he lied saying that the price was fixed when it wasn't. I NEVER personally heard of a person paying the marked MSRP price for a car. When I went back they marked it down $800 off the MSRP today which is what I was initially looking for. But now I have found a better deal and dealer so that's that. If he would have took his head out of his butt the first time he probably would have had a sale. But either way I am satisfied so that's all that really matters to me. I am probably going to buy from the dealer tomorrow that was more personable, professional, and who worked a fair price for the car.

driftracer

you have a relative who is a car dealer, yet you still don't have a "cement" number to shoot for, and you're on your third dealership and still looking, going to get a written quote and then play "beat this price"?

STOP. I mean no offense to your car dealer relative, but if your relative is anything more than a greenpea salesman, they could easily pick up the phone and get you a deal with a Chrysler dealer, and have you walk in and sign and drive. Happens all the time between dealers who know each other.

You've run around in circles, wasted your time and several salespeople's and salesmanager's time, and again, if your relative is anything but a greenpea, he certainly wouldn't want to waste your time, or the time of 3-4 dealers.

"My cousin said that I should take the invoice price and the MSRP price, find the difference and split it"

I rest my case - between that statement, and the bogus info about this "mystery invoice price", I wish you good luck in finding your car at a good price, but perhaps your cousin isn't the one to be taking car buying advice from.