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Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I don't think anyone berated him. I think some of us just shared our thoughts on his methology of buying a car.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Well, nonj, the way prices are going, the dealers may be handing cars out for free pretty soon.

    Like the one dealer said, "We lose money on every car we sell, but we make up for it in volume".
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    here4....thanks for letting us "ride" with you on your deal, but as others have said, I'm not one to spend as much time as you to do that deal. Plus, you spent another $875 more than you had planned for oil changes. Don't know if that's a good or bad deal. But, over a 100,000 miles assuming 5K miles for oil changes, that's 20 of them. Pay $25/change ($20/w coupon) and they did ding you for that amount. Another $100 for something you don't know about. I can get 4 something % for financing all day long at my credit union, so you gave a point to them for financing. I dunno....was it really worth it?

    I probably come down between what bobst does and how you do it (but in a much more abbreviated fashion). I research. Have a pretty good idea of what the model I'm interested will sell for. Make the offer. If it flies, great. If we're within a $100 or two of each other, I offer to split the difference. If it's more than that, I walk. 15-20 minutes is about as much as I'm willing to do for negotiations.

    But, that's just me.

    One thing I agree whole heartedly about is double checking the numbers in the F&I dept. I've seen way too many mistakes made there. Plus, those mistakes were NEVER in my favor. I've had to correct many a deal in F&I. Any strange fees I can't account for in F&I don't make it with me.

    Glad you've got the car you want, though.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    I agree with you.

    4 hours of research on the internet
    2 hours finding a dealership who has what you want (preferably after the dealership is closed for the evening)

    20 minutes to finalize the deal
    1 hour for the paperwork

    Any more than that is a waste of time,
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    6 horus researching on-line
    2 hours trying out the potential models
    1 hour figuring out what I should pay for what I want
    3 hours with my wife showing her the car
    20 minutes testing my wifes preffered model
    1 1/2 hour handling the documentation.
  • here4thekidshere4thekids Member Posts: 25
    Graphic Guy

    I guess it again deals with what works for you. But I will hit more on that in one second. First let me hit on the final price I paid for the car. First the $875 protection plan. I asked on one of my earlier posts about this. I explained what it was and what it entailed. I asked if anyone had any advice and no one did. I thought it could be another way to be "had" by the dealer but like I said I received no response. Now I guess I can explain exactly what it is and we can see if I got "had" on this. What it is a a plan for the life of your car. I sure hope that the life is more than 100,000 miles but whatever it may be it is for the life. It includes 14 things, some are beneficial and some are not. The 14 things are.....

    1. Free lifetime oil changes (I pay $5 filter)
    2. Free lubrication (free lub on ball joints, grease fittings, and movable ball hinges)
    3. Free set of manufacturer floor mates (4 in total)
    4. Free paint sealant (sealant on top on the manufacturer clear paint coat)
    5. Free semi-annual safety inspections
    6. Free tire rotation and wheel balancing
    7. Free state pre-safety inspection and free estimate on any work needed
    8. Free 4-season inspection
    9. Free car wash each time the car is serviced for anything
    10. Annual Reconditioning $75 whenever (includes engine cleaning, shampoo interior, and hand polish exterior)
    11. 30% rental charge on cars rented from them
    12. 5% off any body work done
    13. 5% off any accessory purchased
    14. 5% off tire and mounting

    Now some of these I find to be useful and some are not useful at all. I logically thought that it wasn't a bad deal for either side because it kind of insures that they will get your business on certain things. Also they would probably tell me something is wrong every time I took it up there (of course I wouldn't just take their word for it). But this is why I thought it would be beneficial to both (we all know they're not doing this unless the long run profits exceed the short run costs). This is what I thought but I might be wrong. I could have been "had" on this, as I am sure someone will let me know. I did decide to go with it after that post where no one said anything about it I just did not post it. In addition, the $100 that I posted on my earlier post had a reason that was legit I just don't have my receipt with me at work so I could state what it was. I was being a little sarcastic when stating I could have been had. But realistically I could have been "had" somewhere and did not realize it even after my double and triple checking. I am not saying that I couldn't be, I just wanted to be in the best position to not be.

    As far as strategy is concerned, again there are many ways to skin a cat and you have to find out which one works best for you. But in my case I think this worked well for me. I understand that some may not want to do what I did, but again I am not telling and suggesting that anyone does. This is what I did and what I feel worked for me. Again you have to remember that I was willing to pay almost $1000 more than what I paid. So in my opinion I saved $800-$900 by going my way. I was willing to go up probably to $15,700 and I paid $14,800 (of course this is without financing). Lastly I know I got "had" on the financing part of the equation but this was my choice to make. I had no way on financially calculating how which you be better, refinance after the $1000 cash back or take 3.99%. Or maybe I could but did not invest the time to find out which was better. I guess this might not have been the best of decisions but this was mine to make. At least I knew the situation. Some people don't even think about financing through their credit union or bank only through the dealer which ultimately is the worst way to go. But I urge that when buying a car, you do what you feel comfortable with and do what will ultimately get you what you want. I did what was best for me and no one else.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    After you make an offer, how much are you willing to let the salesman 'bump you up'?

    $50, $100, $200?
  • here4thekidshere4thekids Member Posts: 25
    Bob

    Again I would like to think you for your help and input. To answer your question about what I would do differently. First I probably would not have bought the protection plan without financially researching if it would definitely save money in the long run. Secondly, I might not have decided to finance with them and then refinance through my credit union. I might have decided to go directly with my 3.99%. Again that was one I did not do the math work on. Lastly, I might ask my "greenpea" cousin to come and help, lol. But ultimately Bob, the only thing I regret is not playing the math game with every aspect of the sale (protection plan, refinance/payoff in 2.5 years/straight with my 3.99%). This is the only regret I have now.

    I agree with you that this is a tough business and I applaud anyone who is in it. After seeing what some of you have to deal with, I pity salesmen in some way. Pity might have been the wrong word to use, but I see how this can be tough for them. But ultimately they win some and lose some. In my opinion for every one customer who they do not make a "nice" profit off of, there is one who they do. I don't think that my salesperson made all that much off of me but I think on his next sale he could. This is because of two factors: he was a decent sales man, and because the customer may think he/she is getting a deal when they are not. Another customer may come in there and see the sticker price at $17,700 and think $15,700 is real good, when I just paid $14,800. Either way they win some and lose some.

    Lastly just to hit on a couple more comments. I think Isellhondas said it was way too much for a couple hundred dollars off. Ultimately that is your opinion and you are entitled to have that but I don't think it was too much work for almost a thousand dollars off. You have to remember that I had no problem driving around for the best price, I do this anyway in another field. I look at price, market, condition, and make my decision based on these factors. The best deal to me was worth this. I spent maybe $25 on gas and maybe 10 hours on this deal which saved me almost a thousand. Since my free time (time off from work) is not all that valuable to me, I look at it like I saved whatever minus the $25 on gas. Again time is trivial and we put way too much emphasis on it. If it is not making you money, which most of our time after work is not, then I don't see why it's so valuable.

    And for the person who stated that they put less time in buying houses then I did my car, I hope that was just being sarcastic because houses are definitely an investment that needs to be weighed inside and out and if you do not do this you are short-changing yourself (ultiamtely putting yourself in a foolish position). I spent roughly 10 hours on this, but I spend a lot more on this when buying houses. You might see a nice house but do you look at its estimated value to what the seller is selling it for, its average increase in value on a yearly basis, the surrounding area to see the trend of growth (is it growing, staying the same, or decreasing), are their any developers in the immediate that have future development plans, what are the communities demographics, how are the schools rated around the area, do you shop around for the best interest rate that you qualify for on your investment, etc. These are all things that you have to look at becuase they either will help increase your house's value at a higher rate or increase it at a much lower rate. I did not even get into every aspect that I look into when buying houses just a couple to make a point. A house is definately an investment and I hope you want to make the most return on it. This in my opinion seperates the investors/entreprenuers from the average Joe. But whatever if that's your approach then great.

    Again thanks to all (especially isellhondas, driftracer, and bob) for their comments, suggestions, philosophy, and ultimately their help. I will continue to come on here to try to help some people like you all have helped me. Again nothing was personal, we all just have our own opinions on this issue and that's great because it makes for great discussion. Thanks all.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    You know, it seems that the more important decision we have to make, the less information we have available.

    Buy a dishwasher - easy, just read Consumer Reports

    Buy a car - Good info here on Edmunds

    Buy a house - not too much info, is there?

    Choose a spouse - we're kind of flying blind, aren't we?
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,281
    Marry someone attractive and devoted who has a lot of money. Good luck finding this person!

    It's a lot easier to stick to cars...

    here4, I don't think your PT Cruiser has ball joints to be lubed. And I doubt if 5% off the dealer's price for tires will beat Tire Rack's price. But if you keep the car long enough, and the dealer stays in business long enough, the free oil changes and tire rotations may pay off.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Grease fittings on a modern car??

    I'm sure they made more money on their little 895.00 package than they did on the car but, hey, if the person buying is happy, that's what matters!
  • here4thekidshere4thekids Member Posts: 25
    Corvette

    Thanks for the response on the protection plan they have. I did not do the research to see if this would benefit me but I am glad that you could help me with realistically looking at it.

    When choosing a spouse I look for the fattest, ugliest woman out there you has the less bit of self-esteem. Those are the ones who stick by you, lol. But really, you right the bigger the decision the harder it is to find info on it. There are lots of info for buying houses but the research and time put into finding this is enormous. But later guys out to buy an alarm system. Anyone have any good recommendations or I guess I will just go to the accessory threads.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Wrong forum for this but...

    Just get a good one if there is such a thing and find a good installer. My experience is that these are usually more trouble then they are worth especially after they age. If I were to buy a used car with one, I would remove it.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    .. **Buy a house - not too much info, is there?** ...

    The problem with home buying is: the "vast" amount of mis-information ... brokers push the sale when the home has been on the market for 9/10 months, but under two/three different listings, so the buyer doesn't know .. Realtors get all involved into "market is soooo hot" (depending on the region) and you have to pay full price because buyers don't know any better ...

    The best thing you can do is (if your not in a rush) is to spend 7/8 months and tracking the homes in that area .. you would be Amaaazed on how many homes have been sitting since August, and most times, the Realtor isn't even aware of it .. because it's out of their particular zipcode or small area ...

    I guess what strikes me funny is, someone will spend days and weeks trying to purchase a vehicle at a set price, but will spend a weekend to purchase a $500,000 home .... spend some serious time on that purchase, and you can save some serious $$ ....



    Terry :)
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    here4....if it works for you, great. Personally, I won't invest that much time at the dealership going back and forth. The more time you spend doing that, the more convoluted the deal seems to become. Figures from 15 minutes ago, change and then change again and again. I try to keep it simple. Here's the price for the car. Here's the price I'm willing to pay (based on the research I've done before ever setting foot in the dealership). Usually, the test drive takes longer than my negotiations. We're either close in our thinking, or we're not. If so, I'll do one volley in the negotiations, that's it. If we can't do it within 15-20 minutes (going to the salesperson's boss, coming back to me, etc) then I won't waste any more of their time or my time. I try to stay away from the 4-SQUARE stores, but if forced, I've got my own deal sheet I take with me with the terms of my offer. I give that to the sales person to take to their manager.

    If I don't have enough confidence in their car to be reliable, then I shouldn't be buying it, so extended warranty plans aren't part of the deal, even if they try to make it so. I like to be able to go wherever I want to get service. I'm a coupon clipper and find oil change, tire rotation, etc services all the time that I'll use as I see fit.

    bobst....I try to stay out of the "bump" routine. You know how that goes, "IF WE DO X, WILL YOU DO Y?" That's where you and I are similar. I try to have my ducks in a row before I even sit down in the sales person's cubical. I'll make my offer. I even have my own printed offer sheet made out that I give to them. Sometimes, they accept it, sometimes they don't. If they accept it, I'll make one pass with "I'll sign the deal right now if you throw in floor mats, oil changes", etc. That usually gets the deal done.

    If they come back and aren't within a $100 or $200 of my offer, I thank them for their time and leave. If they are within that range, I offer to split the difference. If they do, I've just bought a car. If they don't, again, I thank them for their time and leave (which usually prompts a call back from the dealer asking me to come back in). If I come back in (and that's rare), I won't be bumped. My original offer will stand and I make that clear when they call on the phone. If I'm back in for a 2nd time, after agreeing on the phone, and they try another bump, I don't even thank them. I just walk out.

    The key to all of this is the upfront research, here at Edmunds, in the local newspaper car ads, etc. If I'm unrealistic in what any car will sell for, I find out in short order after a couple of different dealer visits. That means I have to do more research to see where I went wrong in my thinking. That doesn't happen often, though. Conversely, I find out real quickly if any dealer's "deal" is unrealistic, based on that same research.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Graphic, you sound like me, except I don't do the 'bump stuff'.

    If I were going to offer $20000 but would be willing to go as high as $20050, then I would just offer $20050 and be done with it.

    When we bought our Acura RSX, we offered $20500 and the sales manager accepted. Later, the F&I lady tried to increase it to $20501. We were ready to walk out, so she decided to accept $20500.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    bobst....yeah, I'd say our strategies and "negotiation styles" are pretty close. We've bought enough cars to know what will/won't get a deal done.

    I must admit (shamefully) that, depending on my mood, I'll "play" with the green pea sales rep or 4SQUARE store people on occasion.

    With the "green peas", I'll let them do their whole presentation. Let them get all of the figues on a deal sheet and then let them try to bump me with the "and you would be willing to go X higher" type bump. I pull my laptop out of the bag and set it up right in front of them. I usually look at them and repeat my same initial offer after checking my computer. I'll let them take it to their manager. The manager and/or closer come by. Try the same bump, and I just keep repeating my same offer and show it to them on my computer screen. I don't ask questions. I don't "bump up" my offer. After about 10 minutes of that routine while the green pea stands around, asking me if I'd like a soft drink....which I tell them I would, but make it "to go", the manager's usually tell me I don't want to buy their car. I agree and leave (with my soft drink).

    Or, I'll let them write everything up on the deal sheet. When they ask me to sign it, I whip out my deal sheet with my terms and ask them to sign mine. That'll throw them a little. BTW, some actually do sign it. I tell them to take it to their manager and have him sign it, too. That brings a real quick visit from the manager to the desk telling me that the salespersons signature doesn't constitute a deal.

    4 square stores can be fun sometimes. Salesperson starts the deal sheet, writes down his/her numbers. Hands it back to me. I cross out all of their numbers. Ask them for a stapler (which they comply without question). I pull out my own term sheet and ask them to staple it to the crossed out 4 Square deal sheet and staple them both together. I tell the sales person to take the stapled sheets to the closer/manager. That will prompt a quick trip back to the desk too.

    Ordinarily, I don't buy from green peas, "turn and burn" or 4 Square stores. I'll mess with them a little. See how much information I can get from them as far as the market for a given model or how they handle their sreamer ad cars, but I don't buy from them. Veteran guys are more to my liking to deal with. If they've been around for a while, none of that type of back and forth usually goes on. It's pretty straight forward. We usually don't even sit at their desk to make a deal. With a couple of questions on both our ends, we get the terms done while still standing outside (if it's not nasty weather). They tell me what they will/ won't do up front. I tell them what I will/won't do upfront and we both get a pretty good idea in short order whether a deal is imminent or not. I can tell them, "that's all the money in this deal on my end" or they tell me the same from their end. We've either got a deal or we don't. Either way, we shake hands with a smile. If we agree (and the veterans know what will or won't get a deal done), the only thing we have to do is write it up at the desk.

    Once I show the veteran my pre-prepared deal sheet, they either say "I can get that done" or, "I need a little more than what's here on the sheet". If that "little more" isn't $100-$200" which I split with them, there is no deal. Am I leaving $50-$100 on the table? Maybe....maybe not. I know I'm getting a good deal either way, though because I've already done my homework with my research and it's reflected on my own, self-prepared deal sheet.

    My deal sheet also does away with any "inadvertant errors" that can occur, too. Price of the car is clearly spelled out. TTL prices are clearly spelled out. Terms (like delivery time, free oil changes, free floor mats, etc are included). I even carry a portable printer with me to print copies for everyone involved. In short, if there are any surprises, my sheet spells out, in detail, what we agreed to.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    Wouldn't it just be easier to find a couple good dealers in the Queen City and just be done with it??

    All that stuff is too much work.
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    wow graphicguy, what a process!

    honestly, if i saw a guy toting a printer and laptop into where i worked, id run the other way! ;-)

    instead of messing with folks, (poor greenpeas!) why not just be up front from the get go, and give them the sheet off the bat, so not as to waste your time? im just curious why the games?

    i have been in car sales almost 2 years, and i try to get to the number my customer wants without all the haggle in the middle. its funny how some dont want to give it to you, and want to go through the haggle process before they do. i try and tell them "but its going to make this a lot easier - we either can do the number or not!"

    everyone is different. if dragging a laptop and printer works for you, fantastic! ;-)

    btw, when you present your numbers, give me an idea on where you are? im curious as to if you are showing a deal where selling price is at invoice, below, or above?

    thanks!

    -thene :-)
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I'm with you. If see a person with a laptop, I'm out the other door. I just don't have the patience and I know I would be dealing with a person whose personality is the opposite of mine. I'm a Type A, hands on, relationship selling kind of a guy...a dinosaur I suppose.

    I realize we are all different. I've said that many times in these forums. It never fails to amaze me however, the time, effort, and research some people will put into the simple process of buying a car!
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    You know, carrying in a laptop don't impress no one no more. Why not get an old Univac mainframe like we used at the Census Bureau, put it in the back of a truck, and pull up in front of the dealer.

    That'll show who's boss.
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    Carry a PDA with wireless card. Place all of the information you need in a PDA. That way you could trap the salesman by having the PDA in the pocket.

    At one dealer, I actually used there wireless LAN with my PDA to figure out that the sales person was being unrealistic about the minimum cost. (Specifically, I asked if I could buy for the price listed on the dealer's internet site...he said he could not sell it for that little, aqs he had to make some money).
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    You are showing your age....today smaller computers are cooler.
  • guitarguitar Member Posts: 32
    Can I check how much more (or less) bargaining power would I have if I offered to pay in cash (compared to financing or leasing?)

    Cheers.
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    none anymore - we make money on financing!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Yes, the more experienced members will tell you that the dealership makes money off of financing, so cash won't help in that instance.

    However, what cash DOES do is let the salesperson/dealer know that you are ready, willing, and able to buy right then & there. So, if you're prepared to hand over the money that day, make your intentions clear. Salespeople are more likely to talk serious numbers if they know a buyer is ready to buy today.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    I can understand some sale person running from the "geek" with his laptop in tow. I've only done that a couple of times and used it mainly because that's where my offer sheet happened to be stored and I was coming right from work to the dealership. I do usually just bring my offer sheet with me. But, I do have figures stored in my PDA so I can figure things up on the fly. Plus, I can just fit it in my pocket.

    Believe me, when I was (much) younger, I just took everything for granted when buying a car. Thought that the longer I "haggled" with the dealer, the better the deal got.....WRONG! As stated before, the more the figures change, the more it became a 3 card monty game. Looking at the "deal" later, in the privacy of my home, I found out that the figures just shifted (sometimes, not to my betterment), not that the deal neccessarily got better. By then, it's too late to do anything about it as the car is already sitting in my driveway.

    I will say, these days, I only use my PDA to check figures and refer to my spreadsheet. More than a few times, I have found errors....usually in the F&I office....and never in my favor. Coincidence?

    As mentioned, I would probably enjoy doing business with the dealer folks who post here. You guys are veterans. You know what can/can't be done. I disdain the 4 square stores (which is where most greenpeas reside). Problem is, you don't know it's a 4 square store until you sit down with the sales person inside the dealership. Really, most of the management of those stores are only managers/closers because they've managed to survive there for more than 6 months.

    I would hope that the veteran sale folks wouldn't mind dealing with me, since I've (hopefully) got my arms wrapped around what can/can't be done, too. Maybe I'm only kidding myself, though. Maybe you guys would run from me. Hope not, but maybe. I like to think of myself as a pleasant business person.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Isn't anything sinister. I had never heard a worksheet referred to as a "four square" until I read about this in these forums.

    I guess you could call one of the worksheets we use a four square if you wanted to.

    There are four boxes on it. One is for the trade. Another is for the monthly payment, down payment etc. It just keeps things organized because there are seveal elements to a sale. I've never had a customer think it was designed to trick them in any way...it isn't.

    If you dealt with me, you wouldn't need a laptop. Everything is plain and simple. I don't play any games and I would hope most salespeople would operate in the same manner.

    Oh, but then, we wouldn't have these "Confessions" stories to read.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    I've always appriciated your posts here over the years. I've found them informational and very useful.

    I guess one of my pet peeves on the 4 square sheet is that the only time I've seen them used is in the "high pressure" stores.

    Like you, I want to keep it simple. I rarely trade. So, at most, we've got the store's number and we've got my number for the car in question. That makes things real simple.

    The "sheet" I use, shows the purchase price and TTL. That's about it. If we agree to floor mats or something of that nature on the deal, that's hand written on my sheet. Where I've normally found discrenpancies is figuring TTL in the F&I office. My sheet is more useful there. Plus, we've got two sets of eyes checking and double checking the numbers agreed to on the showroom floor.

    If I do trade, my trade-in is usually a well worn car that's been in the family for awhile. I doubt most dealers would put one of my trades on their lot. They are "auction cars" so they're worth whatever the auction rate is. That's easy enough to find out over at Real World Trade-in Values thread.

    I will say that even though the trade-ins I have may be older and have high mileage, I do make sure that everything works, that the car has decent brakes/tires/battery, etc. Make sure the interior' has been shampooed and that the outside is washed and freshly waxed before I take it to a dealer. But most times, a neighbor ends up buying them as a 2nd car or a 1st car for one of their kids. They know I've taken care of them, even though the car is older.

    Still, I prefer not to trade as that just makes a simple deal more complex. I'm probably not the norm in that regard, though.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    graphicguy -

    you sound like a reasonable guy to deal with as well. believe it or not, someone who comes into my dealership that knows the real price of a car, and makes a legitmate offer is more than welcome to work with me! its tough to deal with people who havent done research, or have wrong information. those are usually the people who want $3000 below invoice, and think its fair ;-)

    sounds like you got a process that works for you! btw, what kind of offers do you make (if you don't mind me asking) below invoice, at invoice, a little above?

    thanks!
  • buck0086buck0086 Member Posts: 52
    Can you explain in more detail about the the F & I office and the line items you write out to help with that process? I've read all the posts, but I'm having trouble following that part of the process. Thanks.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    graphicguy, I've also enjoyed your postings too. I know you are a very reasnoble person who treats people in a straightforward manner.

    We would get along well in any business situation.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    thenebean....I don't go into holdback. My stance is, if the dealer's willing to get into holdback on any car, then it's probably not going to be a car that I'll be happy with come selling time a few years down the road....or the color isn't attractive....or the equipment level is bad....or all of the above. I may be wrong in my thinking, but I've always been leary of anyone, selling anything, on the cheap. Behind invoice deals don't leave me feeling any better that I got a good deal.

    It really depends on the car. If I was in the market for a Taurus for example, I might try to dip into the holdback because.....well, just because it's a Taurus....last of a mediocre breed that there are tons of on the maket. But, I'm usually a sports car buyer. You won't get near invoice on legitimate sports cars....particularly ones from the Japanese or European marks. I'm sure there are exceptions, but we're speaking in generalities.

    I've bought cars for family members that are more run of the mill.

    Don't know what kind of cars you sell, but let's use isellhondas as an example. Let's say I'm buying a hybrid Accord. I know right off the bat that the hybrid Accord is selling for MSRP. You might dip a $100 or $200 below MSRP if the stars, moon and sun line up correctly, but I'd prepare myself to pay MSRP for one. I'd offer $300 under MSRP to see if that would fly, perhaps...but I wouldn't count on it. Go over to the Toyota store and you can say the same about a Prius. There's no sense in offering invoice on any of those cars, because you're wasting your time. I'd have to do some research on a Corolla or a Camry since I don't know what the local market is for them, since I haven't looked.

    In general, on Hondas and Toyotas (aside from the Hybrids), you can get a deal done at $500-$750 over invoice, depending on the time of the year I'm buying. I adjust my initial offer accordingly. Of course, there's exceptions to even those numbers. When the new Accord first came out, MSRP was the going rate. Accord special edition packages, that they introduce every once in a while, will probably go somewhere in the middle of MSRP and invoice, because they're "value priced" to begin with. I'm sure isell can set me straight if my thinking is wrong.

    I've bought BMWs in the past and have offered to split the difference between MSRP and invoice. That usually gets the deal done on those. I could probably spend another hour or two and net another couple hundred off, but it's not worth my time nor effort to do so.

    Domestics are a different animal. You've got rebates, financing incentives, dealer incentives, credit card incentives, etc to deal with. Plus, I qualify for both GM and Ford employees plans since I've got relatives who work for both. There are no negotiations with those plans. Makes it "easy-peazy". Walk in. Have your discount plan pin number and drive out in the car. You can get way in back of invoice on most domestics based on the rebates, incentives, etc. Chrysler tried to get MSRP on the Crossfire when it first came out. A few sold, but you can now buy those all day long at $200 over invoice or less, then subtract any incentives because they aren't moving.

    Of course, there are exceptions to domestics, too. I just bought a Mustang. As mentioned, I qualify for Ford's X plan. When I bought, it was snowing heavily and no one was in the showroom in the dead of winter. Trying to get X plan price on a Mustang today, in the spring, when they're selling them all day, every day at MSRP, and it's going to be a mighty struggle, if not impossible. So, why waste your time. The market is the market for whatever car you're interested in.

    So, knowing the local market for a car is just as important to the deal as negotiations in my estimation.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The market is the market for whatever car you're interested in"

    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I will NEVER understand the people who wring their hands and worry that just maybe, they could have paid less than they did.

    You probably have normal blood pressure and a happy outlook on life!
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    buck....my sheet will show the MSRP, with all the options, colors, etc listed. Then, I've got a 2nd column for invoice of the same car. If you've done any pre-shopping, when the dealership is closed, you can actually have a stock # or Vin # of the car you're interested in on the sheet.

    In a 3rd column, I have my offer price.

    Based on that offer, I figure my local tax on the car (mine is 6.5%). Title (which varies from dealer to dealer since they are doing the legwork to get paperwork done), which I usually list as $50. Then, whatever the tag cost is. Either the tag transfer fee from BMV or temp tags (also the cost from BMV) listed.

    If there are dealer installed options on your vehicle, you also must list that price on the deal sheet, as well as the tax for those options.

    If you want to trade-in a vehicle, you must have a line item for the trade-in amount. If your locale only provides that you pay tax on the difference between trade-in and purchase price, figure the tax only on the difference. Subtract the trade-in amount from the agreed upon purchase price, add back in TTL, and you've got your deal sheet to check against the dealer's deal sheet. They should match up and show where (if any) discrepancies are.

    I keep these on my PDA for Windows CE.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • steven922steven922 Member Posts: 49
    This is what worked for me:

    While taking my wife's car in for a quick oil change at the dealer I had a few min to kill and went outside to "the point" and struck up a conversation with a sales man named Chuck. He asked if I was in the market for a new car (of course I was, if you drove a 10 year old Neon with a family of four wouldnt you be too?) and I replyed that I liked the SUV model and would like to take a test drive, no problem. After the drive was over he asked If I wanted to take it for a few hours to get the feel of of it and show my wife..., I said sure.

    Get back to the dealer and I told him that I qualify for the GM employee discount thru work, no problem. He showed me the invoice and showed me the price that I would pay on the invoice. It was a good deal (although at this point I felt like I should get up and walk, too many bobst stories I guess). Anyway, he comes back a few min later and says that on top of the 1500 rebate (that I knew about) there was an additional 500 rebate to dealer that they were giving me as well.

    F&I office, smooth as silk. They offered the credit life and extended warentee but that was it. (WHAT!! no 400 dollar scotch gaurd pitch or even mop & glow, I felt cheated, dayum, I was ready too). Oh well.

    This was one of the easiest experiences that I have had in buying a car and just wanted to share it with you. BTW, They did offer a tank of gas for the CSI survey and I was happy to do it. We have bought our last 3 cars from this dealership which is local and have been satisfied with them in sales & service. Well thats all, just wanted to share my experience. Steven.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    The salesman gave you a price and you paid it. If all car buyers were so agreeable, sales people would be a lot happier.

    The moral to this story? If a buyer wants to have an enjoyable, stress-free car buying experience, then don't waste time negotiating. Just pay the price the dealer wants.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    bobst....in Steven's case, since he qualified for GMO/GMS discount, he got the SUV well in back of invoice plus he was able to deduct the rebates and incentives. It's always the best price you'll get on a GM vehicle. The GMO/GMS price is the actual "net" the dealer pays for the vehicle (invoice less holdback). GM compensates the dealer for doing the deal, however.

    It's really easy. If you qualify, the dealer shows you the MSRP and the employee price, then go through any deductions, pay that amount and your out the door.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    So what should a reader learn from Steven's experience? That we should all work for a financially sound company like GM?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    half the country probably qualifies for the GM plan pricing. My company did some work for GM, and we are participants in one of the programs. We were actually just acquired by EDS, which really qualifies!.

    Might have to swing by the SAAB dealer to see if they will give me one for free.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Remember, a Saab is a car that makes people cry.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,586
    It sounds like he is an employee, not just a supplier.. Looks like his price is about $1200 under the supplier price..

    And, if you are leasing for two years, Saabs won't make you cry... If something happens to yours, they give you another one to drive..

    Now, if you are buying a used one.....

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  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    "Now, if you are buying a used one" you will sob even more.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    Only if you like the General's cars should you work for GM. That said, my brother-in-law works for GM and my sister works for Ford. That means I qualify for manufacturer discount plans on any Pontiac, Hummer, Caddy, Saturn, Chevy, GMC, Buick, Saab, Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Land Rover, Jaguar, Volvo, Mazda (but unfortunately, no Aston Martin discounts).

    If I could just get a couple of family members to go work for Honda, Chrysler and Toyota, I'd never negotiate the price of any new car purchase again.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • steven922steven922 Member Posts: 49
    In my post I stated that I recieved the GM employee discount, this is incorrect. I recieved the GM supplier discount, I do not work for GM. Both this plan and the X-plan with ford are available thru my employer. Sorry if there was any confusion. If you have this available I think it is the way to go. It's a set price on the invoice. Could you beat the price on the invoice without the discount, perhaps. But if you dont like to negotiate and want a fair deal, I think this is the way to go.

    I was just joking in my post about walking; bobst. I, like you,do not like to negotiate either and found this a simple way to buy a car. Although many people do not have discount plans available, and this will not work for all. This was just my experience. Steven.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    And don't forget to mention that you need two additional sets of keys!

    (that actually start the car) :P
  • purplebugpurplebug Member Posts: 24
    Alright I still am waiting to buy my Purple PT Cruiser. Recently, I have been getting a little down about because I am starting to see a lot more on the road, not my color of course, but more in general. I like feel somewhat unique. HOWEVER, I have now found a modification site to spruce up my future baby. They are based in California, but have a distributor network here in North NJ. My question is should I buy my new baby from this dealership and have them mod the car....badda bing badda boom. Or should I stick with one of my local dealers and then go to the other dealership to mod the car. Is it possible that my local dealer can get the mod car from the other dealership, with little extra $$$. I do not know any local mechanics/detailers that I would really trust with this type of work.

    Thanks in advance.
  • jake001jake001 Member Posts: 1
    Just got my 05 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4x4 last night. Here was my technique: I researched everything to a ridiculous degree, and made a spreadsheet (I love spreadsheets) with every shred of info I would possibly need. MSRP, invoice, options prices, holdback, all KBB and Nada values for my trade, all quotes received, stock numbers, registration, title, tax rate, contact for each dealer, and then the price matrix. The price matrix was a chart I made with all possible price ranges for the Jeep, and my trade in, so when an offer was made for each price, I followed the rows to where they intersect on the spreadsheet to find total OTD price. The cells were programmed with the registration, and tax fees at each price, so the OTD price was accurate no matter what price we were at. Furthermore it was color coded. Half was green, half black. So if a deal fell in the green it was in my pre-determined yes range. Otherwise nope. Pretty much took any and all emotion or indecision out of the process. All the information I could possibly need on one sheet of paper, thanks to small fonts!

    After emailing all the Jeep dealers in town, I decided to go to the lowest quote first, which also happened to be a very straightforward, itemized quote and an actual typed up email, not a form email. The dealer was an older place, independent, not one of these mega chains. The salesman was a little taken back by my preparedness, but he was a 25 year vet, so nothing really phased him. I was respectful, but firm on my offers, knowing exactly how what I needed to make the numbers work. After going back and forth with the salesman about three times (asking for my keys back, blah blah), we were finally able to strike a deal that fell into the "green zone" on my sheet.

    I ended up $800 under invoice, and actually with the $3500 rebates, ended up $4300 under total invoice price. I recommend what my wife now calls "the spreadsheet technique" to everyone. A few hours of work probably saved me $1000 bucks. Not a bad hourly rate.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    purplebug, you might also drop by our Speed Shop: Tuning & Modification board, where members are talking about modding vehicles.

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  • tweet651983tweet651983 Member Posts: 32
    I am looking to purchase (cash deal) a new 05 Accord and a leftover 04 Ody, and I want to trade in my current car and minivan. Any strategies to getting this done. Should I keep the transactions separate or do I have a better or worse chance if I ask for a combined price for both?
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