One week ago I leased a new car. Signed on the dotted line and got a good deal on it. After I left the dealership I realized that I didn't pay the $700 that I was supposed to. I had offered to write the check while in the business office and he said the sale mgr would take it. Well fast forward 8 days later I get a phone call from them saying that their accounting dept doesn't have record of the money. I told him that I would have to look through my paperwork. What should I do? I have gotten advice that it is their fault that they didn't collect the money so they need to take the hit... it is already my car. But I have also gotten advice that it is a moral issue and that is the part I am struggling with. I am an honest person but on the other hand they messed up... nevermind the fact that I wasn't totally happy with the sales man. Please help me!!! What would you do? Are there any laws about that stuff?
I have gotten advice that it is their fault that they didn't collect the money so they need to take the hit...
That is very poor advice. You know you had to make the payment and you didn't. Legally the contract says you have to pay the $700 so you are not off the hook unless the dealer somehow voided the contract prior to your requirement to pay. Legally and morally you owe them the money so pay it.
it is already my car.
No, you just have legal right to posses it, which may no longer exist since you are in default of the contract. Depending on what state you are in they could repossess the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The advice I received came from someone who worked many years in the car business and said because my paperwork states they received the $700 from me that it is a legal document and our contract.
I agree with you and I was incorrect in stating "it is alreay my car." You are right the car is only in my possession.
Bottom line is I did not try to cheat them in anyway and made multiple attempts while filling out my contracts to sign my check to them and they kept telling me to hold off and it got to the point that they forgot completely.
The question is do you have a receipt? The paperwork stating that they received the $700 is meaningless unless there is backup documentation of that. That could be a receipt or a cancelled check.
You are legally responsible to pay that $700.00.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If the tables were turned and they were supposed to cut you a check back for $700 but you forgot to get it...would you think oh well, my mistake, I guess I'll have to eat it???
Thank you for your input! I am glad I was able to get some opinions on here. The first person I spoke to is the one that said don't pay it... This was the reason why I wanted to see if others felt the same. I knew that I couldn't live with myself if I didn't pay it but I was interested to see how others would deal if they were in my situation. I will be dropping the check to them this weekend!!!
LOL ask and you shall receive, sounds like you knew and were going to do the right thing anyway. Besides, you'll want to drive around that nice new vehicle without guilt. Where's the emotorcon with the halo???
I don't like sneaky customers or people who lie to me. There comes a point where I really don't care if I make the sale or not. I have no fear of loss and I think this shows.
thanks guys for your advice. Maybe I will end up buying a car (thinking about Honda fit, which does not seem to be available yet in NC) before moving out of state. btw, moving from NY to NC.
can you tell me what "lemon laws" are?? thanx again.
Maybe I will end up buying a car (thinking about Honda fit, which does not seem to be available yet in NC)
One word of advice, it appears that the Fit is currently a hot car and may take you some time to take delivery, you also most likely will be paying at least sticker for the car. Because of that you may want to look at other cars or wait until the Fit cools down a bit.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
jipster.....I don't think it has as much to do with the brand, although I do believe the alleged "higher end" brands do try to add value over and above a Chevy store, for example.
That being said, I'm noticing more and more dealerships becoming more customer focused in recent years. I know when I had a Mazda, the dealership called every time I was in for service to make certain I was satisfied. They didn't offer free loaners, but they did offer free shuttle service when I brought it in for service. While their customer waiting area didn't resemble a high end living room with big screen TVs, pastries and sodas, they did have all the free coffee and bottled water you could want. They also had internet access.
10 years ago, I could barely get any dealership to let me use their telephone, let alone give me a ride home while service was being done. I can remember waiting as long as 3 hours just for a simple oil change back then, too. There are dealerships around me that only care about one thing.....making the sale for as much gross as possible....everything else is secondary. They don't seem to care about establishing repeat business by taking care of the customer after the sale, either. Those are becoming fewer and fewer...at least around me.
There is only one Toyota and Honda dealership I'll buy from because I know they put a premium on repeat customers and are customer focused. Same with Ford and GM. The Ford store I like is a "mom & pop" operation...not owned by a big dealership group. When I'm in the market for a Ford, I don't even talk to a salesperson. I either talk to the GM or the owner. I call them up, they give me a price on something I'm interested in (it's always very good)....no muss, no fuss. These are the kind of people who will do a deal on a handshake...they know I will, too. And, I don't hear from a sales person until the car/truck is ready to be delivered. There are only 2 BMW dealerships around me. I wouldn't hesitate buying from either of them. My BMW dealership owner also owns a Chevy, Mazda and Subaru store. They offer the same customer service (sans the pastries, sodas, living room and free loaners) on a Chevy as they do for a BMW owner.
Another owner has a Cadilac/Nissan/Kia dealership near me. Every time I've walked into their store, I feel like I have to take a shower after leaving. They take way too long to get a good deal in place. They employ all of the sales "tricks", too. They "upcharge" every little thing, to boot. My son tried to buy a Sentra from that store a few years ago. They had one he wanted coming in, but it was "in-transit" from the factory. They wanted to charge him a $200 "transit fee" for a car that was going to be delivered to them anyway. I stay away from that dealership group.
That's not to say I won't shop elsewhere to make certain my price research is correct, but I buy from the places I trust and know will give me good customer service. Price is but one piece of that criteria.
Regarding having my bumper repainted, my BMW dealer didn't have to do that. They did it to keep me coming back....and I will.
...Regarding having my bumper repainted, my BMW dealer didn't have to do that. They did it to keep me coming back....and I will.
graph,
That is GREAT service you got from that dealer and as long as you are satisfied with the brand and they continue to give reasonable deals, why would you even think of going anywhere else?
Now don't ruin it, at Christmas, send him a card and bake him cookies. You might even want to consider doing this for his birthday and anniversary too!
I've heard schmoozing never hurts,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Thanks for the reply. Sounds like you've been around the block, and know quite a bit about your local dealerships from firsthand experience. I think for the average buyer(buys new or used every 4-5 years) it would be more difficult to distinguish between the "service centered" dealerships and those more focused on price...that is until it is to late. It would also be more difficult in establishing the "relationship" you are referring to.
I'm happy with my Mazda dealership(price and service), and am planning on buying from the same dealership in the future. But, giving a good price is "customer focused" in my opinion. So, get the good price...if you don't get the service, take your business somewhere else.
I either talk to the GM or the owner. I call them up, they give me a price on something I'm interested in (it's always very good)....no muss, no fuss.
"Easy-peasy!" as you like to say. I have no doubt that you select your dealerships wisely and negotiate efficiently. You seem to get good value in the form of courtesy services.
Do you think the dealers you select treat everyone this way?
If not, do you get special attention because of the number of purchases you make for yourself or on behalf of others?
Or do the purchase prices you offer include a buffer to pay for some extras later?
Assume for the moment that getting the lowest possible purchase price is your goal, that you purchase cars infrequently, that you are willing so spend time negotiating and that you are willing to try another dealership if necessary. In terms of relationships, imagine that you had an excellent on-going relationship with an independent mechanic and with a top-flight body shop. Could you get (or have gotten) a lower price for your purchases if that was all you cared about from the dealer?
jipster...I'm a charter member of the Chronic Car Buyers club....LOL!
In all seriousness, it seems I'm in a dealership at least once/year buying, or helping someone buy a car....either friends or family members. I always tell them they can do the research on a car just as easily as I can, but rightfully or wrongfully, they somehow think I've got some sort of magic "knack" for it.
Since I'm at dealerships so often, I do know some of the management staff at my preferred dealers. They know if I walk in, someone in my party is in the market and not just "kicking tires". Matter of fact, a good friend of mine is at the end of her lease on her Rav4. She wants a new one. We'll be paying a visit together at Toyota stores next month.
Can't disagree with you about price being part of good customer service. You're also right about service. If your selling dealer isn't giving you good service, find another one that will.
driveright....I don't know that I get any special treatment one way or the other. I do tend to gravitate to dealerships that are the total opposite of "King of Cars" type places, though. The BMW dealership's owner also has a Chevy and Mazda store. I've bought cars, or helped someone buy cars from those places, too. The owner also is a member of my church....so I talk to him semi-regularly.
My late father was friends with the local Toyota and Honda store owner. I grew up with his daughter (who now runs all of his dealerships). This guy also owns a couple of Lexus dealerships. I like his Toyota and Honda stores. I don't care for his Lexus store, though.
Does all of this so called "networking" grant me better prices or service? Maybe....maybe not. Case in point, when I was shopping for the BMW, I also had a Lexus on my list of cars I might be interested it. Called the daughter of the Lexus store owner. She, in turn, had the GM at the Lexus store contact me. He turned me over to one of his sales people...who, curiously, couldn't have been more disinterested in selling a car to me. The daughter called me back and asked why I didn't buy a car at her Lexus store....and I told her. She said she'd handle my transaction personally next time I'm in the market. We'll see if that's the case.
On the other hand, there are two BMW dealerships in my area. The one, who's owner I know, had his GM contact me. He beat the other dealership's price by $700. That's a pretty hefty amount. Did it help to know the owner? Did that get me a free bumper repaint? Don't really know. It sure didn't hurt, in this case.
I'd like to think that all of these people are just very good at the business they're in. They know that repeat business is their life blood. And, taking care of the customer before, during and after the sale is the best way to insure repeat business, from me, or anyone else.
For the most part, I think dealership principals want to know what their customers think of their experiences at their stores. It never hurts to let them know. Then again, some dealership owners are as hard to get to as trying to memorize the chinese alphabet.
I'm a charter member of the Chronic Car Buyers Club
I would join that club in a minute, if one of the criteria wasn't parting with your money so frequently.
But, I really have enjoyed my car buying experiences, more so since I became a member at Edmunds. If a dealership thinks he can wear me down with time constraints and "the turnover" during negotiations... good luck. I have all the time in the world, if I'm in a 2 hour negotiation process I'm hoping it will last 3. Don't think my offer is good enough, fine by me... I'll walk in a heartbeat. I would enjoy looking at your competitors inventory, and even meeting another salesperson.
But, I usually drive a car anywhere from 4-7 years... depending how much I enjoy it and its reliability. Very happy with current ride, so unless a friend or family member is in the market, I'm looking at another 3-4 years before my next purchase.
...I have all the time in the world, if I'm in a 2 hour negotiation process I'm hoping it will last 3. Don't think my offer is good enough, fine by me... I'll walk in a heartbeat.
jip,
There appears to be a conflict in your statements or you have a VERY slow heartbeat.
If you spend spend 2 or 3 hours they must be bringing in lunch or dinner; a snack at the very least.
As you know I don't spend more than 30 minutes. For this, if I'm lucky, I get the car I was dealing on and never any goodies other than a coffee.
You have more patience buying than I do.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
In my experience with an out of state purchase, they use the sales tax rate according to the home state of the buyer (or, in some cases, whichever is lower).
Well, I’m pretty impressed. If you have connections like this in every area of life, you might qualify as a blue-blood aristocrat.
I understand better why you emphasize relationship purchases. It seems that your method of buying cars is perfect for you. Because of your choice of dealerships, relationships with owners and frequency of purchases you may have developed the best way that anyone could possibly buy cars. I would hazzard to suggest that you have become a center-of-influence with a semi-professional level of expertise and connections. Your friends and relatives are well served to request your help in buying cars.
You didn’t directly respond to my question about price-oriented negotiation, but I can infer the answer anyway. I’m betting that the attempt to drive a really hard bargain would be a mistake for you. You would offend your friends, suffer adverse social consequences and curtail the nice extra services you have enjoyed.
The relationships you describe involve an element of chance and take both time and skill to nurture. Those of us who assume that we may never buy from a given salesman or dealership a second time may also be choosing the optimal purchasing strategy for our situations when we drive a hard bargain on price. That’s the part which is not necessarily “Easy-peasy”.
Well, if I feel progress is being made during negotiation, then time is irrelevant. But, if the dealership is acting like they don't want to work on getting me a good deal, then I walk and they can go order a pizza or something.
I think during my Mazda MPV purchase over two years ago it was probably 3 hours from the time we stepped on the dealers lot to the time we drove home in our new MPV(about 45 minutes after the dealership had closed) My wife wanted to buy at about $400 over what we ended up paying. I guess she may have really been hungry. Luckily, with my 60 beats per minute heart rate... I was not.
Well, if I feel progress is being made during negotiation, then time is irrelevant.
I would disagree with that, if time is irrelevant than you can spend 10 hours to save $50 as long as your are making headway. My time is valuable and I cannot see wasting an hour to save $50.
Of course a skilled negotiator could tell if there is a good chance that the savings will justify the time spent. But they cannot take the attitude that time is irrelevant as long as progress is being made.
I have ended negotiations that were making progress simply because I knew we were so far apart that the two ends would never meet. In the off chance they did it would have taken more time than it was worth.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
driveright....money is money. Like anyone else, friendships don't enter into it when we're talking about spending 10s of thousands of dollars. I'm not going to spend more money because of a friendship. To get me in the door, I'm going to have to have a reasonable expectation I'm going to get a good deal.
Artistocrat? I've been called a lot of things. Aristocratic has never been one of them. Do I exploit those relationships? Sure. Who wouldn't? Do I throw business to those I know and trust? Yep! But, not if it's going to cost me money.
As you say, different people have different ways to buy a car. More than once I've told my aquiantances that their offer wasn't going to get the job done. Sometimes they say they can't do any better....in which case, no hard feelings. It's business. Sometimes those relationships yield better than expected results.
Most of the time, my contacts say "this is how much I've got in this car....this is the minimum amount I have to make on it". On a new car, it's easy to figure out what the real cost of the car is (invoice less holdback...less rebates...marketing support, etc). Then, you add in whatever markup they have to make. It's either a good deal or it isn't. Is it a better price than "grinding" during a negotiation session? Don't know. I'm not going to ask them to sell me a car at a loss, however. Just like I don't expect them to try to take advantage of me because of our personal relationship.
snake...I concur with you. There's certainly a point where it's futile to continue negotiations. You may, or may not be able to get where you need to be if the opening offers are just too far apart. I'd rather just move to another dealership than waste a lot of time trying to find out if we can get to a good deal.
I'm in a similar situation. I'm waiting for a response on a offer on a second-choice color '06. I know exactly what I'm willing to pay for it. If they can't do it, that's fine and I'll wait a couple months and go with an '07 with my first choice color.
You have to put a value on what you lose with a second-choice color, as well as a year old new car. Year-end models lose even more value when you drive it off the lot. If your deal doesn't make up for that loss, you got screwed.
if time is irrelevant then you can spend 10 hours to save $50...
You're nit picking me on this one snake. I wrote if "progress" was being made, and I felt the dealership was "working" to get me a good price, I would continue to negotiate. Obviously if I'm spending 10 hours on a deal, the dealership isn't "working" hard to get me a good deal... nor is "progress" being made.
My time is valuable...
LOL... you spend more time writing posts on Edmunds than myself and jmonroe put together.
A skilled negotiator has the attitude that time is irrelevant... which was the point I was trying to make. It's up to the individual buyer whether their money saved justifies "time spent". I'm not a professional buyer or negotiator. So, spending an extra hour or two (or 10) every 5-6 years on a new car buy doesn't matter much to me in the grand scheme of things. As I've posted before, I enjoy it.
You're nit picking me on this one snake. I wrote if "progress"
It was an exaggeration to illustrate a point. That point being that even though progress is being made it might not get to the point where a deal can be made. And if it does the time spent can exceed the amount saved.
you spend more time writing posts on Edmunds than myself and jmonroe put together.
I spend relatively little time and usually during down time.
A skilled negotiator has the attitude that time is irrelevant
A skilled negotiator knows that time is relevant and knows when to use it against those he is negotiating with and knows when not to have it used against you. As I have said before I have ended negotiations that progress was being made simply because of the time value.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not trying to put words in anyone's posts, but I think the longer you stay negotiating, the more the dealership is going to "bump you up". If you're so far apart, that it takes a long time at the dealership to get a good deal, then you're probably too far apart to begin with.
I know of people who turn this into some sort of game...thinking the longer they negotiate, the better the deal. I'm not so certain about that.
I've found if the buyer starts out with a ridiculously low offer, and/or the dealership starts out with a ridiculously high offer, then there's a lot of "wheel spinning" going on.
The dealerships that throw the first number on the table give themselves some leeway to come down. But, what usually happens, while the dealership may come down $50, $100...even $200 at a time, they are bumping the buyer $300...$400....$500, or more, at a time.
The relationship of how much the dealership comes down isn't equitable to the amount the buyer "gives back" once you get into protracted negotiations.
The longer you sit at the negotiation table, the more you're getting "bumped".
The longer you sit at the negotiation table., the more you're getting "bumped"
So, if you don't get a deal done within 5 minutes you're going to be paying more? Doubtful... most experts (socala4) will tell you the opposite is true (within reason).
Your therory certainly wasn't true in my case. I was bumping the dealership down the whole time...except for the final bump($100) which I let the dealership have to get the deal and to let them save face. The important thing to do is to show them you are a serious buyer, and that you will walk if not satisfied with the price. A good negotiator knows not to start out with a "ridiculously low offer", they know they won't be taken seriously...hence the "wheel spinning".
jipseter....I'd hardly call that socala guy an expert on anything. I know I'm not an expert...and am always open to learn.
Hey....if it works for you to stay at the negotiation table for a long time, have at it.
I do agree to let the dealership know you're a serious buyer. That should get things moving quickly. But, why not tell the dealership right up front, you're willing to pay that same offer (plus the $100 "to save face") as a one time offer (hybrid bobst deal)? IF it's a deal they (and you) can live with, it should be done within 5 minutes. You would have saved yourself all that time going back and forth.
Not trying to put words in anyone's posts, but I think the longer you stay negotiating, the more the dealership is going to "bump you up".
I have found that most amateur negotiators fail the longer they are at the table. Of course, it always depends on the skills of the person in front of you..but generally the longer somebody is in front of me the higher the chance they are buying under my terms. I can't get control of a deal if the customer is a hit and run buyer like bobst. Spend a few hours with me and your driving home a new car..There is actually a sales technique known as 'wearing out the customer'.
In a casino the longer somebody gambles the higher the chances of walking away a loser...the house edge catches up with time...same applies with amateur negotiators vs experienced ones.
In a casino the longer somebody gambles the higher the chances of walking away a loser...
I'm not sure negotiation is a gamble but, interestingly, a casino still wins even if the game is "fair" because it has essentially unlimited resources and the typical gambler does not. In car negotiations the "house" does not have unlimited resources (e.g. time) and the game is fair only when the customer is fully informed.
When you lease a car is it better to not reveal the fact that you are leasing during negotiations, or to tell the salesperson up front you plan on leasing? Thanks.
audia...you touch on something I've always felt, too. The longer you're at the negotiating table, the more committed the buyer will be to the deal, not the other way around. The salesperson isn't going anywhere.
I would think any sales person worth their salt knows pretty quickly whether a deal is reachable, or not.
As in all things, unless it's a "win-win", somebody's going home believing they've been taken.
...but generally the longer somebody is in front of me the higher the chance they are buying under my terms. I can't get control of a deal if the customer is a hit and run buyer like bobst. Spend a few hours with me and your driving home a new car..There is actually a sales technique known as 'wearing out the customer'.
THANK YOU and THANK YOU!!!
Several of us that hang out here have been saying this for quite awhile now. However, this is the first time I have seen where one of you guys in the biz has said it.
The sad thing about this admission is that now you may have just killed this board.
You guys in the biz just can’t win can ya?
If I don’t see you again its been nice,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I'm not sure negotiation is a gamble but, interestingly, a casino still wins even if the game is "fair" because it has essentially unlimited resources and the typical gambler does not.
The casino wins simply because the game is not fair. Every game in the house gives the edge to the house, it may be small like in black jack or huge like in keno. The casino may lose in the short run but the longer the player plays the more likely the odds kick in, and as I said the odds favor the house.
Its the smart gamer, like the smart car buyer, who knows when to walk away.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually some *games* are fair. These are the ones where the casino just takes a profit of the win. Poker and Pai Gow Poker are the main examples of this.
I've never gone to Vegas with any remote hope of winning (although I have on occasion). I go there once/year. I take as much as I'm willing to lose...and do my best to keep some of that (I actually feel I've won if I have some of my "gambling money" left over after the trip).
I happen to love that city. Some of my friends feel it's tacky and way over the top (can't argue that last point). That said, I've never enjoyed any of the few times I've been to a casino outside of Vegas, including Atlantic City. So, I convince myself I enjoy the Vegas experience, and not gambling.
Walking into a car dealership, although you're buying a depreciating asset, at least your driving home something you can use. Not so in casinos.
That either means I'm a bad gambler (very possible), or I'm a relatively optimistic person (hope so).
Actually its not fair simply because the house takes a portion of the pot regardless. 5 players sit down to play poker and 'X' amount of time all 5 players leave, the combined amount of money they walk away with will always be less than what they walked in with. Yes some players may walk away with more money but the group as a whole will not.
A game is only truely fair when a certain number of people playing a extended period of time have a 50% chance of walking away with more money as a whole. Casinos are not set up that way.
But then this is way off topic.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
a casino still wins even if the game is "fair" because it has essentially unlimited resources and the typical gambler does not
It isnt the resources that gives the casino the edge. Every game has a house edge built in...some more than others.
In car negotiations the "house" does not have unlimited resources (e.g. time) and the game is fair only when the customer is fully informed.
very few customers are fully informed. The typical poster on edmunds only represents a small percentage of buyers...that is an edge for the dealership. Also most amateur negotiators just don't have the skills or experience to get into long winded negotiations. OTOH, alot of so called dealership negotiators are less experienced than some buyers...that can be a big edge for the buyer if they don't have a clever sales manager quarterbacking the deal...
Comments
Thanks!!!!
Perhaps write them another check with deducted stop payment service on the old one (with prior clearance on it with the manager)?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Then you know what you should do.
That is very poor advice. You know you had to make the payment and you didn't. Legally the contract says you have to pay the $700 so you are not off the hook unless the dealer somehow voided the contract prior to your requirement to pay. Legally and morally you owe them the money so pay it.
it is already my car.
No, you just have legal right to posses it, which may no longer exist since you are in default of the contract. Depending on what state you are in they could repossess the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The advice I received came from someone who worked many years in the car business and said because my paperwork states they received the $700 from me that it is a legal document and our contract.
I agree with you and I was incorrect in stating "it is alreay my car." You are right the car is only in my possession.
Bottom line is I did not try to cheat them in anyway and made multiple attempts while filling out my contracts to sign my check to them and they kept telling me to hold off and it got to the point that they forgot completely.
You are legally responsible to pay that $700.00.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thanks again!
I like that idea! And we'll need one with horns too.
tidester, host
I never wrote anything about price. I just asked what one had to do to get the type of dealer relationship you were referring to.
You mentioned one thing...picking the right dealership. Anything else we can do, especially for us non-BMW buyers?
I don't like sneaky customers or people who lie to me. There comes a point where I really don't care if I make the sale or not. I have no fear of loss and I think this shows.
can you tell me what "lemon laws" are?? thanx again.
One word of advice, it appears that the Fit is currently a hot car and may take you some time to take delivery, you also most likely will be paying at least sticker for the car. Because of that you may want to look at other cars or wait until the Fit cools down a bit.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Perhaps it won't make much difference, but wouldn't hurt to know.
If it were me, and I didn't need the car for the move, I'd be more inclined to buy in the state of destination, all else being equal.
That being said, I'm noticing more and more dealerships becoming more customer focused in recent years. I know when I had a Mazda, the dealership called every time I was in for service to make certain I was satisfied. They didn't offer free loaners, but they did offer free shuttle service when I brought it in for service. While their customer waiting area didn't resemble a high end living room with big screen TVs, pastries and sodas, they did have all the free coffee and bottled water you could want. They also had internet access.
10 years ago, I could barely get any dealership to let me use their telephone, let alone give me a ride home while service was being done. I can remember waiting as long as 3 hours just for a simple oil change back then, too. There are dealerships around me that only care about one thing.....making the sale for as much gross as possible....everything else is secondary. They don't seem to care about establishing repeat business by taking care of the customer after the sale, either. Those are becoming fewer and fewer...at least around me.
There is only one Toyota and Honda dealership I'll buy from because I know they put a premium on repeat customers and are customer focused. Same with Ford and GM. The Ford store I like is a "mom & pop" operation...not owned by a big dealership group. When I'm in the market for a Ford, I don't even talk to a salesperson. I either talk to the GM or the owner. I call them up, they give me a price on something I'm interested in (it's always very good)....no muss, no fuss. These are the kind of people who will do a deal on a handshake...they know I will, too. And, I don't hear from a sales person until the car/truck is ready to be delivered. There are only 2 BMW dealerships around me. I wouldn't hesitate buying from either of them. My BMW dealership owner also owns a Chevy, Mazda and Subaru store. They offer the same customer service (sans the pastries, sodas, living room and free loaners) on a Chevy as they do for a BMW owner.
Another owner has a Cadilac/Nissan/Kia dealership near me. Every time I've walked into their store, I feel like I have to take a shower after leaving. They take way too long to get a good deal in place. They employ all of the sales "tricks", too. They "upcharge" every little thing, to boot. My son tried to buy a Sentra from that store a few years ago. They had one he wanted coming in, but it was "in-transit" from the factory. They wanted to charge him a $200 "transit fee" for a car that was going to be delivered to them anyway. I stay away from that dealership group.
That's not to say I won't shop elsewhere to make certain my price research is correct, but I buy from the places I trust and know will give me good customer service. Price is but one piece of that criteria.
Regarding having my bumper repainted, my BMW dealer didn't have to do that. They did it to keep me coming back....and I will.
graph,
That is GREAT service you got from that dealer and as long as you are satisfied with the brand and they continue to give reasonable deals, why would you even think of going anywhere else?
Now don't ruin it, at Christmas, send him a card and bake him cookies. You might even want to consider doing this for his birthday and anniversary too!
I've heard schmoozing never hurts,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I'm happy with my Mazda dealership(price and service), and am planning on buying from the same dealership in the future. But, giving a good price is "customer focused" in my opinion. So, get the good price...if you don't get the service, take your business somewhere else.
"Easy-peasy!" as you like to say. I have no doubt that you select your dealerships wisely and negotiate efficiently. You seem to get good value in the form of courtesy services.
Do you think the dealers you select treat everyone this way?
If not, do you get special attention because of the number of purchases you make for yourself or on behalf of others?
Or do the purchase prices you offer include a buffer to pay for some extras later?
Assume for the moment that getting the lowest possible purchase price is your goal, that you purchase cars infrequently, that you are willing so spend time negotiating and that you are willing to try another dealership if necessary. In terms of relationships, imagine that you had an excellent on-going relationship with an independent mechanic and with a top-flight body shop. Could you get (or have gotten) a lower price for your purchases if that was all you cared about from the dealer?
In all seriousness, it seems I'm in a dealership at least once/year buying, or helping someone buy a car....either friends or family members. I always tell them they can do the research on a car just as easily as I can, but rightfully or wrongfully, they somehow think I've got some sort of magic "knack" for it.
Since I'm at dealerships so often, I do know some of the management staff at my preferred dealers. They know if I walk in, someone in my party is in the market and not just "kicking tires". Matter of fact, a good friend of mine is at the end of her lease on her Rav4. She wants a new one. We'll be paying a visit together at Toyota stores next month.
Can't disagree with you about price being part of good customer service. You're also right about service. If your selling dealer isn't giving you good service, find another one that will.
My late father was friends with the local Toyota and Honda store owner. I grew up with his daughter (who now runs all of his dealerships). This guy also owns a couple of Lexus dealerships. I like his Toyota and Honda stores. I don't care for his Lexus store, though.
Does all of this so called "networking" grant me better prices or service? Maybe....maybe not. Case in point, when I was shopping for the BMW, I also had a Lexus on my list of cars I might be interested it. Called the daughter of the Lexus store owner. She, in turn, had the GM at the Lexus store contact me. He turned me over to one of his sales people...who, curiously, couldn't have been more disinterested in selling a car to me. The daughter called me back and asked why I didn't buy a car at her Lexus store....and I told her. She said she'd handle my transaction personally next time I'm in the market. We'll see if that's the case.
On the other hand, there are two BMW dealerships in my area. The one, who's owner I know, had his GM contact me. He beat the other dealership's price by $700. That's a pretty hefty amount. Did it help to know the owner? Did that get me a free bumper repaint? Don't really know. It sure didn't hurt, in this case.
I'd like to think that all of these people are just very good at the business they're in. They know that repeat business is their life blood. And, taking care of the customer before, during and after the sale is the best way to insure repeat business, from me, or anyone else.
For the most part, I think dealership principals want to know what their customers think of their experiences at their stores. It never hurts to let them know. Then again, some dealership owners are as hard to get to as trying to memorize the chinese alphabet.
I would join that club in a minute, if one of the criteria wasn't parting with your money so frequently.
But, I really have enjoyed my car buying experiences, more so since I became a member at Edmunds. If a dealership thinks he can wear me down with time constraints and "the turnover" during negotiations... good luck. I have all the time in the world, if I'm in a 2 hour negotiation process I'm hoping it will last 3. Don't think my offer is good enough, fine by me... I'll walk in a heartbeat. I would enjoy looking at your competitors inventory, and even meeting another salesperson.
But, I usually drive a car anywhere from 4-7 years... depending how much I enjoy it and its reliability.
Very happy with current ride, so unless a friend or family member is in the market, I'm looking at another 3-4 years before my next purchase.
jip,
There appears to be a conflict in your statements or you have a VERY slow heartbeat.
If you spend spend 2 or 3 hours they must be bringing in lunch or dinner; a snack at the very least.
As you know I don't spend more than 30 minutes. For this, if I'm lucky, I get the car I was dealing on and never any goodies other than a coffee.
You have more patience buying than I do.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I understand better why you emphasize relationship purchases. It seems that your method of buying cars is perfect for you. Because of your choice of dealerships, relationships with owners and frequency of purchases you may have developed the best way that anyone could possibly buy cars. I would hazzard to suggest that you have become a center-of-influence with a semi-professional level of expertise and connections. Your friends and relatives are well served to request your help in buying cars.
You didn’t directly respond to my question about price-oriented negotiation, but I can infer the answer anyway. I’m betting that the attempt to drive a really hard bargain would be a mistake for you. You would offend your friends, suffer adverse social consequences and curtail the nice extra services you have enjoyed.
The relationships you describe involve an element of chance and take both time and skill to nurture. Those of us who assume that we may never buy from a given salesman or dealership a second time may also be choosing the optimal purchasing strategy for our situations when we drive a hard bargain on price. That’s the part which is not necessarily “Easy-peasy”.
Tidester, would that qualify as irrational and transcendental?
I think that fits into the category of uncountable sets. Have you ever seen a Chinese keyboard? Here's the Kanji version:
tidester, host
I think during my Mazda MPV purchase over two years ago it was probably 3 hours from the time we stepped on the dealers lot to the time we drove home in our new MPV(about 45 minutes after the dealership had closed) My wife wanted to buy at about $400 over what we ended up paying. I guess she may have really been hungry. Luckily, with my 60 beats per minute heart rate... I was not.
I would disagree with that, if time is irrelevant than you can spend 10 hours to save $50 as long as your are making headway. My time is valuable and I cannot see wasting an hour to save $50.
Of course a skilled negotiator could tell if there is a good chance that the savings will justify the time spent. But they cannot take the attitude that time is irrelevant as long as progress is being made.
I have ended negotiations that were making progress simply because I knew we were so far apart that the two ends would never meet. In the off chance they did it would have taken more time than it was worth.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Artistocrat? I've been called a lot of things. Aristocratic has never been one of them. Do I exploit those relationships? Sure. Who wouldn't? Do I throw business to those I know and trust? Yep! But, not if it's going to cost me money.
As you say, different people have different ways to buy a car. More than once I've told my aquiantances that their offer wasn't going to get the job done. Sometimes they say they can't do any better....in which case, no hard feelings. It's business. Sometimes those relationships yield better than expected results.
Most of the time, my contacts say "this is how much I've got in this car....this is the minimum amount I have to make on it". On a new car, it's easy to figure out what the real cost of the car is (invoice less holdback...less rebates...marketing support, etc). Then, you add in whatever markup they have to make. It's either a good deal or it isn't. Is it a better price than "grinding" during a negotiation session? Don't know. I'm not going to ask them to sell me a car at a loss, however. Just like I don't expect them to try to take advantage of me because of our personal relationship.
You have to put a value on what you lose with a second-choice color, as well as a year old new car. Year-end models lose even more value when you drive it off the lot. If your deal doesn't make up for that loss, you got screwed.
You're nit picking me on this one snake. I wrote if "progress" was being made, and I felt the dealership was "working" to get me a good price, I would continue to negotiate. Obviously if I'm spending 10 hours on a deal, the dealership isn't "working" hard to get me a good deal... nor is "progress" being made.
My time is valuable...
LOL... you spend more time writing posts on Edmunds than myself and jmonroe put together.
A skilled negotiator has the attitude that time is irrelevant... which was the point I was trying to make. It's up to the individual buyer whether their money saved justifies "time spent". I'm not a professional buyer or negotiator. So, spending an extra hour or two (or 10) every 5-6 years on a new car buy doesn't matter much to me in the grand scheme of things. As I've posted before, I enjoy it.
It was an exaggeration to illustrate a point. That point being that even though progress is being made it might not get to the point where a deal can be made. And if it does the time spent can exceed the amount saved.
you spend more time writing posts on Edmunds than myself and jmonroe put together.
I spend relatively little time and usually during down time.
A skilled negotiator has the attitude that time is irrelevant
A skilled negotiator knows that time is relevant and knows when to use it against those he is negotiating with and knows when not to have it used against you. As I have said before I have ended negotiations that progress was being made simply because of the time value.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know of people who turn this into some sort of game...thinking the longer they negotiate, the better the deal. I'm not so certain about that.
I've found if the buyer starts out with a ridiculously low offer, and/or the dealership starts out with a ridiculously high offer, then there's a lot of "wheel spinning" going on.
The dealerships that throw the first number on the table give themselves some leeway to come down. But, what usually happens, while the dealership may come down $50, $100...even $200 at a time, they are bumping the buyer $300...$400....$500, or more, at a time.
The relationship of how much the dealership comes down isn't equitable to the amount the buyer "gives back" once you get into protracted negotiations.
The longer you sit at the negotiation table, the more you're getting "bumped".
So, if you don't get a deal done within 5 minutes you're going to be paying more? Doubtful... most experts (socala4) will tell you the opposite is true (within reason).
Your therory certainly wasn't true in my case. I was bumping the dealership down the whole time...except for the final bump($100) which I let the dealership have to get the deal and to let them save face. The important thing to do is to show them you are a serious buyer, and that you will walk if not satisfied with the price. A good negotiator knows not to start out with a "ridiculously low offer", they know they won't be taken seriously...hence the "wheel spinning".
Hey....if it works for you to stay at the negotiation table for a long time, have at it.
I do agree to let the dealership know you're a serious buyer. That should get things moving quickly. But, why not tell the dealership right up front, you're willing to pay that same offer (plus the $100 "to save face") as a one time offer (hybrid bobst deal)? IF it's a deal they (and you) can live with, it should be done within 5 minutes. You would have saved yourself all that time going back and forth.
I have found that most amateur negotiators fail the longer they are at the table.
Of course, it always depends on the skills of the person in front of you..but generally the longer somebody is in front of me the higher the chance they are buying under my terms. I can't get control of a deal if the customer is a hit and run buyer like bobst. Spend a few hours with me and your driving home a new car..There is actually a sales technique known as 'wearing out the customer'.
In a casino the longer somebody gambles the higher the chances of walking away a loser...the house edge catches up with time...same applies with amateur negotiators vs experienced ones.
I'm not sure negotiation is a gamble but, interestingly, a casino still wins even if the game is "fair" because it has essentially unlimited resources and the typical gambler does not. In car negotiations the "house" does not have unlimited resources (e.g. time) and the game is fair only when the customer is fully informed.
tidester, host
Thanks.
I would think any sales person worth their salt knows pretty quickly whether a deal is reachable, or not.
As in all things, unless it's a "win-win", somebody's going home believing they've been taken.
THANK YOU and THANK YOU!!!
Several of us that hang out here have been saying this for quite awhile now. However, this is the first time I have seen where one of you guys in the biz has said it.
The sad thing about this admission is that now you may have just killed this board.
You guys in the biz just can’t win can ya?
If I don’t see you again its been nice,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The casino wins simply because the game is not fair. Every game in the house gives the edge to the house, it may be small like in black jack or huge like in keno. The casino may lose in the short run but the longer the player plays the more likely the odds kick in, and as I said the odds favor the house.
Its the smart gamer, like the smart car buyer, who knows when to walk away.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Look! A nit! *pick* *pick* *pick*
I happen to love that city. Some of my friends feel it's tacky and way over the top (can't argue that last point). That said, I've never enjoyed any of the few times I've been to a casino outside of Vegas, including Atlantic City. So, I convince myself I enjoy the Vegas experience, and not gambling.
Walking into a car dealership, although you're buying a depreciating asset, at least your driving home something you can use. Not so in casinos.
That either means I'm a bad gambler (very possible), or I'm a relatively optimistic person (hope so).
A game is only truely fair when a certain number of people playing a extended period of time have a 50% chance of walking away with more money as a whole. Casinos are not set up that way.
But then this is way off topic.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It isnt the resources that gives the casino the edge. Every game has a house edge built in...some more than others.
In car negotiations the "house" does not have unlimited resources (e.g. time) and the game is fair only when the customer is fully informed.
very few customers are fully informed. The typical poster on edmunds only represents a small percentage of buyers...that is an edge for the dealership. Also most amateur negotiators just don't have the skills or experience to get into long winded negotiations. OTOH, alot of so called dealership negotiators are less experienced than some buyers...that can be a big edge for the buyer if they don't have a clever sales manager quarterbacking the deal...
I didn't say they were fair. The operative words were the conditional part:
a casino still wins even IF the game is "fair"
which I thought was interesting. Look up the term "gambler's ruin" on Google if you're interested.
tidester, host