Agreed. When you buy and sell for a living you're sure to have an edge over someone who only does it once every three or four years. It's like traffic court where most of us rarely get tickets but go up against a police officer and judge who know the system from daily experience.
The *game* is still fair (for the fair games). The conditions under which you play, however, are tilted towards the house.
Much like the car buying process can be. If you go in with full knowledge of pricing, options and financing, the house's edge is reduced to almost zero. If you go in and just want to put your money down on 00, you're likely to lose.
The only difference is that you're even less likely to walk away with half a million dollars at the car dealership.
Actually Audi has sad that before on more then one occasion.
OK, I just never saw it.
rover,
Do you agree with what Audi said or doesn't his statement apply to your high end cars? I would think that your customers want the vehicles you sell and don't really care, within reason, what it costs because they aren't on a budget like most car buyers. They just WANT it!
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
No, I agree with what he said for the most part. I don't just deal with high end clients since we do sell pre-owned vehicles that are much less expensive. I just sold a little Nissan Altima today that we sold for $7,800 dollars and parked right next to it was a Range Rover we sold for 70,000 dollars.
...I don't just deal with high end clients since we do sell pre-owned vehicles that are much less expensive.
I understand that you sell less expensive cars but my question was do your HIGH END customers seem to care as much about price as your customers that buy the average priced pre-owned vehicles.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
But, why not tell the dealership right up front, you're willing to pay that same offer...
That's pretty much what I did. Like I posted earlier, I was bumping the dealership down during most of the negotiation. I was holding onto my original offer till the very end. I don't think the, "take it or leave it" offer will yield a lower price than what a skilled negotiator can get. Also, that(take it or leave it) is really not my style. :shades:
Two...maybe three times I got up to walk because they weren't giving me the price I wanted. Each time they would be, " Hold on Jip... let me check our numbers again, see if we can work something out." Or,after saying I would go home and check my numbers then come back if my numbers were in error, " Don't walk Mr. Jipster, 90% of buyers who say they will come back never do... we can work something out."
We were initially probably $2,000 apart... I got $1,900 of it(roughly). I used time investment (the dealers) to my advantage. The longer I was there, the more time and money they had invested in me...the better the deal for me. An informed buyer always has the house advantage over the dealer(ship). They need you a lot more than you need them.
So, for the uninformed/impulsive buyer, the longer they are at the dealership the better the odds are for the salesperson scoring the win. For the informed buyer and good negotiator, the longer the negotiation session(within reason), the better the price.
jmonroe - I'm not answering for brit, but I have had to deal with several rich people on price. Everyone of them was very concerned and drove a hard bargain. A few of them approached billionaire status.
We negotiated purchases of anywhere from a few hundred dollars to more than $5M. Everyone of them was tough and I didn't win on many of them. I expect that's either how they got rich or expect to get richer.
jip....nothing wrong with how you negotiate. It works for you.
We're all different. Me? I tell them upfront where they need to be. I don't do any "back and forth" to get there. You prefer the "back and forth". That's OK.
I tell them up front I'm in the market. I'd say that if negotiations started off and we're $2K apart, I'd tell them that we're too far apart to make a deal and leave.
They usually come back and ask where they need to be. I tell them. If they try to bump me...same result. I thank them for their time and move on.
That's about the extent of time I'm willing to make at the negotiation table.
I've had dealerships tell me the same thing about walking out the door and the percentages that return.
I agree that payment buyers are at a disadvantage because their's so much "fudge factor" involved with a payment deal. So are those who walk in "cold" with no reasonable expectation of where the final price is going to be. As we've said over and over again, research (here and elsewhere) and observation (dealer stock levels...demand for the model, etc) should give us a good indication of whether "our price" is doable.
That said, I usually go to a couple dealerships that carry the models I'm interested in to make certain my "deal" number is correct. I tell them I've already been to their competition. That gets to the "nitty-gritty" of the deal pretty quickly and dispenses with the protracted negotiations.
Just one thing to keep in mind, it's the salesperson's job to demonstrate the car and to "bump" your offer for more gross. The only person who can put a final number on the car is the SM and/or the GM, not the salesperson. If the SM can come away with a quick sale, they can move the salesperson to their next "up" to move another unit. If you give them a "doable" deal up front, and tell them they get one shot...no bump, 9 times out of 10 that'll get it done.
It's a numbers game. The more "ups" the salesperson has, the more cars they'll sell. The quicker they can move through the deal, the more money they'll make.
Ask the salespeople here about their "funnel" of prospects. The most successful ones will have a full funnel. They don't get that full funnel by expending a lot of time with protracted negotiations, either. If they do get in protracted negotiations, they better be getting good gross out of the deal.
Well, our buying methods may be different, but our results of getting a good price seem to be the same. That's the main thing. I'm better educated now (thanks to Edmunds,) on negotiation and new car buying, than I was when I bought our minivan over 2 years ago. So, while I would change a few things about negotiating for a new car, the basic game plan would remain the same.
You have to use what you're comfortable with. A really good teacher, instructor, speaker, artisan, etc... comes across naturally. They learn and may fine tune their method, but their basic style is their style. One who trys to do something totally un-natural to them usually doesn't do well.
They usually come back and ask where they need to be. I tell them. If they try to bump me...same result. I thank them for their time and move on.
That's about the extent of time I'm willing to make at the negotiation table.
graph,
That’s pretty much the way I do it. As readers of this board know I only spend 30 minutes max doing it. Sounds like you have an even quicker trigger finger.
Between the two of us, I’m the nicer guy.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It depends on the vehicle really. Some of our vehicles are very low production that we just won't negotiate and the people that are used to this kind of market know that. You can tell the ones that are new to the highend market because they actually try to negotiate on a car that we will only have 7-8 of a whole year and only have one in stock right now.
Then they of course get upset that we aren't willing to negotiate on teh car and you just can't get them to understand.
For other vehicles that are made in higher quantities there is some negotiation involved. These people didn't get wealthy by giving money away but at the same time they aren't typicaly grinders either.
Some like to negotiate back and forth. You and I, well...the deal is there or it isn't. You can tell that in short order.
As jipster says, the results are the same.
A few months ago, an acquaintance "fell in love" with a new 350Z 'vert. He just had to have it. He was dealing with a dealer that I don't particularly like. But, the dealer had the right color, the right options, etc. He told me he tried to get a discount but couldn't. On top of all that, he traded an '05 Miata that he was "upside down" on. Went in, offered $1,000 under sticker....dealer balked....seeing this guy salivate all over the car. Instead of walking out to shop a bit and doing some research, he paid MSRP and probably got $1,000 less than his trade was worth. He said he was afraid that the dealer would sell the car out from under him. Yeah....maybe, but.....
He asked me if I thought he got a good deal. I asked him if he was happy with the car and what he paid. He told me he was happy with the car, but doesn't know how much he'll drive it with the upcoming winter in OH. He realizes he's only going to drive it 6 months out of the year. He's also faced with the prospect of having to at least, buy $600 of winter tires, at worst, getting a winter beater. And, after the fact, wants to know if he got a good price. At this point, it really doesn't matter (as I mentioned to him).
I asked him if he wanted me to be honest or if he wanted me to be nice. I told him not to worry about it...it's only a car. Of course, he's going to be "stinging" for a few years until he can get "right side up" with it (didn't tell him that...he'll realize it soon enough without my help).
High end...low production vehicles are a whole different animal, as you point out BR.
That said, there's one Maserati dealer in our 'burg. They're relatively new (less than two years). They've been running adds in the newspaper around here offering pretty big discounts on their new cars.
That tells me that around here, they overstimated the demand for exotic Italian machinery that costs high 7 figures/low 8 figures. Or, that there just aren't that many people who see the "value" of a car in that price range.
Cincinnati had one Rolls dealership several years ago. They pulled out. Matter of fact, I've only seen one person drive a Rolls around the city. He happens to be the richest guy in Cincinnati....former owner of the Cincinnati Reds, Chiquita, Penn Central, as well as an insurance company.
We're real conservative around here. Short of mega rich sports stars and their rides (mostly customized Escalades), BMW and Mercedes are considered "exotics" here. The owner of the Bengals actually drives around in a Chevy Lumina, I believe.
... there is one Bentley/Ferrari/Maserati dealer. So far as I know, the only one in the Mountain time zone. I haven't the faintest idea what kind of volume they do, but I have seen a few of their cars around, probably driven by the local sports stars.
That being said, there was an issue a few months ago where Jake Plummer, starting QB for the Broncos, got involved in a road rage incident. What's funny is that Jake was driving a Honda Element at the time!
A few months ago, an acquaintance "fell in love" with a new 350Z 'vert. He just had to have it.
In my opinion the only thing worse than falling in love with a piece of sheetmetal on wheels is letting the dealer know it.
With this kind of a disease it's easy to understand how so many people are 'upside down' with their cars and it probably doesn't stop there. I'm willing to bet that they also buy suits that they can't afford.
I'm glad I'm too old to catch that disease,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
ky....maybe it was a Bentley that Carl was driving around. I knew it was a 'vert with a big chrome grill.
Yeah....I keep seeing the same ads for those Maseratis for a couple of months now. Wonder if the dealership will offer 0% for 72 months...or, if they'll let you do an "invoice" deal on one (less holdback and marketing support, of course).
That dealership must do business across the country as I've seen their car ads in some of the airline magazines, too.
I'm pretty sure that is a Woeste dealership... Same as the rest of them on the Beechmont Automile.. They are in Beechmont Toyota's old used car showroom..
jlawrence.....I remember when that Rolls dealership was in Cincinnati. They shared the showroom with the Ford dealership. Talk about a mismatched customer base. Wonder how many people came in looking for a Crown Vic was "sold up" to a Corniche?
ky....it's been awhile since I was out on Beechmont. Didn't know that the 'yota dealer out there had even moved. Wonder how much of a makeover they had to do to the dealership to convert it from Toyota to Maserati?
They built a big showroom for the Toyotas right next door... closer to the Porsche dealership.. I bet it's been 6-7 years ago... they used the old one for the used car lot.
I was over there last year looking at a used car.. They really haven't done anything to the old showroom, but it's amazing how a few new Maseratis and one used Ferrari can dress up a showroom..
Yep, that's the one....they had the Rolls showroom and the Ford showroom combined. Look at an F-150 and a Pantom just 15 feet away....under the same roof.
A few months ago, an acquaintance "fell in love" with a new 350Z 'vert. He just had to have it.
Well, if you gotta fall in love, that's the one to do it with! :shades: (Proud new owner of Redline 350Z roadster myself.)
I'm glad I'm too old to catch that disease,
I bought mine as a 56th birthday present to myself. Thought I was too old for it, too. Found out that passion knows no age limits.
Fortunately for me I'm also very stingy with my money and got an excellent deal on that roadster, so all's good.
But it's true that the car will be in the garage if there's snow on the road. Not a terrible thing here in Virginia, I don't expect to lose too many days and have the Maxima as a back-up anyway, but in Ohio - yeah, he'll lose some time there or he'd be smart to put snow tires on if the Z is his only car.
On the other hand - he'll be driving around with the biggest grin on his face during the 8 or 9 months when snow is not a factor.
I miss my Lumina that I replaced with a new '06 Civic. Ahh the space across the floor and room for stretching out on a long trip, but ouch the price of fueling up every 3 days (360 miles per tank.)
What I meant by this statement was; buying so often because you have such a bad case of hot pants for cars and not truly being able to afford them, you are bound to be 'upside down' before you know it.
I bought mine as a 56th birthday present to myself. Thought I was too old for it, too. Found out that passion knows no age limits.
There is nothing wrong with really wanting a given car as long as you don't drule over it in the presence of the dealer.
Fortunately for me I'm also very stingy with my money and got an excellent deal on that roadster, so all's good.
I've read your past posts so I know you're an informed buyer and given the above, I guess he didn't catch you druleing.
BTW, 56, you're still quite young. I was still at my fighting weight at that age (OK, maybe a little more).
Enjoy your wheels,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Hey, we have more in common, I'm still fighting my weight too!
Oh... maybe that wasn't quite what you meant...
-----------------
Re being upside down and drooling in front of the dealer - nope, never in my life, not even when I was young and foolish, have I bought a new car before the previous one was paid for. Usually it was paid for for at least two or three years before I bought the next one. So far my record is 8 years. I may beat that with my Max - paid for completely when I bought it six years ago, 85,000 miles on it now, and I'm hoping to get at least 150,000 miles before replacing that one.
The Z I'll own as long as it's fun. Could be a long time. :shades:
driveright....I feel fortunate to have the friends I have. Some of it was born out of the fact that I grew up with some of them.....some of it was born out of coincidence. It's funny, I made "skid marks" to get out of OH when I graduated from college. As I got older, I drifted back (slowly, but surely) and reconnected with folks I knew when I was younger. Some had stayed and become quite successful in their own businesses (car business, butchers, furniture stores, etc). Some inherited businesses. I gravitated towards those folks because I knew and trusted them when I was growing up. And, they gave me no reason not to trust them as adults. Some, like me, are "regular 'Joes/Janes'". There's a certain "groundedness" in the midwest that appeals to me. People on either coast don't understand that.
Talking about falling in love with a car.....
I was living in the Bay Area 20 years ago....not far removed from my college days. I fell in love with a 280Z while out there. Walked into the dealership....not knowing "you know what from shinola". Within about 30 minutes, the salesperson had rung me up, not only for MSRP on the Z car, but full "zoot" on "mop and glow" shine package, pin striping, stain guard (the thing had leather interior) and a bunch of other goodies. I remember how proud I was with the purchase....until I called my Father and told him what I bought and how I bought it. He laughed at me and said..."for all you learned in college, you just got another Magna [non-permissible content removed] Laude on being taken at a car dealership". From that point forward I decided to watch, listen, learn, read and research so I wouldn't make that same mistake again.
That's why we all come here. No matter how much I think I know, I don't know much.....
Some, like me, are "regular 'Joes/Janes'". There's a certain "groundedness" in the midwest that appeals to me. People on either coast don't understand that.
I think that I am going to copy your last post and save it. That is a classic.
I don't mind spending a couple hundred more dollars with a dealer who is reputable and who I have dealt with before. It beats dealing with some of the sleazebags out there.
...No matter how much I think I know, I don't know much.....
I could have told him that!
Since you and I are in the same boat (we're in and out so fast) we couldn't possibly recognize a good deal if it smacked us in the lips. I've been accused of not even giving the guy a chance but I know I have.
When you're too far apart early, its time to search down the road.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
When you're too far apart early, its time to search down the road.
j....I feel the same way. Anyone who's done research knows what the price market is for any particular model. The dealerships certainly know what number is doable. To walk into a dealership, and have to fight tooth and nail to get a deal, isn't my kind of place. There's just too many places you can go to find out what can/can't be done on any given model.
On the flip side of that, there's a lot of "fudging" that goes on with what the customer seems to do...from what I read around here.
Hide the trade-in's condition....or stating that someone's neighbor bought that shiny new "Hi-Zoot Supersport sedan" that everyone wants for $1,000 below invoice, etc.
I don't like to do any of that.
If I'm at a store where I don't have any contacts, it usually goes something like this (example purposes only)....
GG--Hi, I'm interested in that Accord you've got sitting here in the showroom. Salesperson (SP)--OK...let's go test drive it... GG--Nice car...how much you want for it? SP--Sticker is on the car but to make a quick deal, I'll knock $500 off MSRP. Let's write it up at that price and I'll see what I can do. GG--$500 off MSRP won't get it done. Looked at one just like this at the Honda store 5 miles from here. They're quoting $500 over invoice. But, I walked on that deal. SP--Impossible...they can't sell it for that. They're low balling you. GG--Do you really want me to walk out that door to find out? I'll buy it from you, right here, right now for $300 over invoice. Write it up. SP--Can you give me another $150 on the deal? GG--Nope! I'm all in! SP--(5 minutes after talking to his SM) Mr. GG, You just bought yourself a new Accord.
Nice example on how you would go about negotiating with a salesman. I wish more members would do the same, as giving the details and specific verbal exchange is much more helpful than giving generic step by step instructions.
But, I still think spending a little more time to get the car you want and your price is more efficient(time and money wise) than traveling to a couple dealerships, test driving, and schmoozing with the salesmen. Then trying to get a good shop price to compare... because you not serious about buying "right now" and the salesman/dealership knows it.
I'm thinking, in the example you gave, with a little bit of work(time) the dealership would have taken invoice(or less) instead of $300 over. What is "doable" certainly fluctuates from day to day as sales goals and other dealer incentives change. If a dealership invests 2 or 3 hours with a customer, they are more likely to want to get something out of it than someone they spend 15 minutes with. But, like you and I and many others have written in the past.... go with what you are most comfortable, and what works for you.
jipster...as you say...gotta go with what you know...
Would a dealer take invoice on a vehicle? Maybe...maybe not. Depends on the car and demand in your area...has the dealership sold much the day you're there, etc.
It goes both ways, if YOU spend 2-3 hours negotiating on a car, you're not going to be as willing to walk away from the deal either after investing so much time....only to go somewhere else and invest that amount of time...once again.
Personally, I don't care if any dealership knows I'm in the market. Matter of fact, I believe it speeds things along to get to your number.
I haven't done any research on what an Accord goes for. My guess is, if there isn't any factory support, a dealership will let you walk at invoice...even after spending 2-3 hours at the table. Might be a different story if it's a Chevy Tahoe, though.
If it's going to take me 2-3 hours for an extra $50-$100 off, I'm not interested. I've got better things to do with my time. That's just me, though.
We just have different philosophies. I'm of the mind that a dealership is more likely to turn a skinny deal quickly than they are over hours of negotiation. You walk after a couple of hours, there's another "up" right behind you. They lost a sale. Big deal. It happens everyday to them. They aren't going anywhere. They just move on to the next buyer.
They deal with jmonroe or myself (or even bobst), they can live with a quick skinny deal because that frees them up to move another unit quickly and get to the next customer that comes through the door.
Putting myself in the salesperson's shoes, I'd rather take a skinny deal from someone I spent 15 minutes with than make a skinny deal over a couple of hours of back and forth. Probably "cut bait" after about an hour thinking it's not worth my time as a sales person.
Again, not saying your way is wrong. I'm just saying we really don't know if you get a good deal or not....after hours of negotiation. If I'm $2K apart from the get go, I'm not dealing with that dealership. It's going to take me too long to get to "the deal". Plus, I don't know, at the very end, if it's a good deal, or not. Let's get to the nitty-gritty, right up front. You're obviously a smart person. You know up front what number you want. Why put yourself through the "back and forth" over hours of negotiation?
I think what you're feeling is that if you don't put a lot of time in at the negotiation table, you're afraid you aren't getting a good deal. I know up front the number I've got is "good". I've researched it and I've checked it (just like you).
I'm keeping this post too, as a reminder that people in the midwest have a monopoly on "groundedness", "family values", etc. and self-righteousness too.
I really didn't spend "hours" in negotiation. Guesstimating...out of the 3 hours at the dealership, probably an hour was test drive and salesperson talking about the van, about an hour and a half or so negotiating, and around a half hour in finance.
But, yeah...you got it right by writing I have a set price in mind when I go in. But, I am certainly not someone who is going to negotiate for 2-3 hours to get $50-$100 off(that's amatuer hour). I enjoy the give and take of negotiation , but not that much.
In many ways car buying is like a game. You know...like Monopoly. You can play the short version(you) or you can play the longer version which I prefer and enjoy. Either way you have to make the right moves to win the game.
Maybe I'm an old softee, but I really wouldn't be that comfortable presenting a take it or leave it offer to the salesperson for fear of offending them...or them taking it the wrong way. It really does defeat the purpose of them being trained to sell cars if all they are told is "don't lose the slip of paper my offer is on while taking it to the salesmanager." (per bobst) I'm sure not going to take it easy of the sales staff in negotiation, but hey...I do give them a fighting chance.
...It really does defeat the purpose of them being trained to sell cars if all...
Do you really care about their training other than knowing how to combat it? You went to a dealer to buy a car. Use your training to get the car and get out of there. One of the guys in the biz said, (I think it was Audi, if I'm wrong I apologize) the longer you're there the better his chances are. I guess this takes you to your next comment below.
...I do give them a fighting chance.
If you stick around too long, I guess it does turn into a FIGHT. When I go to a dealership, I want a car not a fight (I get enough of them at home and I usually lose), so to avoid this I don't stick around that long.
I'm sure you get the deals you want the way you do it so that should make you happy. It's just not my way.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I think thats to long to negotiate a car price. I don't think I spent more than 45 minutes at any time negotiating. My last real purchase I think it took 20-25 minutes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
After I posted that, I thought to myself..."someone is going to take offense". Didn't mean that at all.
As mentioned, I lived in the San Francisco area for awhile. It really is a great city. I've spent a lot of time in the Boston/New York area for work. Again, two great cities.
It may be beacause I grew up in the midwest. But, I didn't realize what that meant until I left (and subsequently came back).
Believe me, none of my friends in CA understood my move back to OH. A traffic jam to us is free flowing traffic on the 101. A million dollar home around me is a mansion. In the Bay Area, it's a little middle class home on a postage stamp sized lot. Culturally, most from New York, L.A., San Fran think we're a bunch of cow tipping hicks. We're as culturally diverse as anywhere in the country....especially over the past 5 years, or so.
We're not self-rightous. We just put a different emphasis on quality of life than some do on either coast.
New Yorkers feel life is too slow here compared to what they're used to. That's fine by us. Gotta live where your comfortable. I've never been more comfortable than I have living here.
As it relates to cars, at least in my neck of the woods, Ford and GM plants have been replaced by Honda and Toyota plants. Believe me, there's a bit of a "hangover" the populace here is still going through regarding that fact. We have one Ford plant left (and that may be gone soon) here. There used to be 3 GM plants and two Ford plants that people around here used to depend on.
Regarding buying a car, I think we put more of an emphasis on the trustworthiness of those we do business with (at least, I do)....whereas, rightfully or wrongfully, those on either coast don't care about that.
>A traffic jam to us is free flowing traffic on the 101.
Amen to that. Folks sat in a 40 minute backup on I75 yesterday morning to get downtown Cincy. I used the alternate route-only somewhat slow on the other route.
>Regarding buying a car, I think we put more of an emphasis on the trustworthiness of those we do business with (at least, I do)....whereas, rightfully or wrongfully, those on either coast don't care about that.
Great comment. Really true here in Midwest. When I bought a car in 85 from a small town dealer, he didn't ask for a deposite. He said a handshake is all he needed and he couldn't afford to not hold up his end of the order because of his reputation with people. He said if the car's something he'd have trouble selling (real odd in some way) is the only time they want to bind a customer. Otherwise if I changed my mind after the handshake, it was up to me and my value sytem. Needless to say I bought six more cars from them.
But that store is now run by 'kids' of the three brothers who have retired out of the store inherited from their father. The main kid seems to be a business major from college days who is back to apply good business to the GM dealership... We'll see.
in my experience, the negotiating actually takes 5 minutes. The other 55 minutes is spent sitting around waiting for the salesguy to come back from the SM's desk!
My technique (if you call it that) is to try and minimize the time stuck in the showroom. Of course, I will spend all day there looking at the cars, but try to minimize the negotiating time!
I use 2 practices: Be prepared with a price that I am willing to pay (based on research, Edmunds, and hopefully internet quotes or fixed prices like Autofair or the place in maryland). This gives me a good basis for drawing my line in the sand.
If I like the car and want to try for a deal, I ask for their first pencil to see where they are starting at. I will counter with my low target price (the hope to get, but don't expect, lower than I will ultimately be willing to go price).
At this point, there will be a run to the SM, the usually gnashing of teeth/your trying to kill us talk, and probably a reduced price. Depending on what they are down to, I might make a small bump if it seems worth it. This of course leads to another run to the SM.
Now, this all shouldn't take too long. And depending on how close we are and the vibe I am getting from the dealer, I may try to nail it down right now. More likely, I will tell them that since we aren't real close, I am going home to mull it over, but i make sure to reiterate my current offer.
What I expect to happen is, if I even make it out of the showroom, I will get a call shortly from the salesguy (on my last pruchase, I had a message before I even got home). I will then look to nail down the deal with a couple of phone calls.
For some reason, maybe the low be-back rate, if they get you negotiating on the phone, they get more aggressive trying to get to a bottom line price. If we come to a meeting of the minds, I tell them to start prepping, and wander back up to fill out the papers. A phone CC deposit is fine too if they want one.
I pretty much followed this method when I got my Accord last December, and I got close to my hope-for number, below my woulda paid number, and way below what they started at!
my other recent purchase was a 2005 Odyssey, in December '04 (when they were still pretty new and hot, and in low supply). Dealers were still shooting for 9and getting) MSRP or close to it.
Anyway, through Edmunds (the forums) I had a spot on an out of state dealers wait list for $950 over invoice, although just after i got on, they jacked up the price (so I don't think they were at all worried if i wanted to back out and they had to sell for more to someone else!).
My local dealer happened to get in the exact van we wanted, so i brought the wife in. Sat down with the sales dude, and I told him if the offer was right, we would take it that day. They started with "hot model, MSRP". I told them I had the opportunity to buy elsewhere (but about 6 weeks out) for ~2K off sticker. pained look on his face..
Anyway, 1 trip to the desk, and he said they would sell to me (and only me!) on the cheap. He did ask if I could come up a few hundred for the convenience (plus this van had some accessories I wanted), so I think I came up $200-$300, and they said OK. TOok about a whopping 15 minutes.
Oh, and the other condition to the deal was I wouldn't tell anyone how cheap they sold to me!
The out of state guy was perfectly OK with taking me off their wait list. They had pelnty of more people on it to bump up, and a serious shortage of vans coming in!
Comments
Agreed. When you buy and sell for a living you're sure to have an edge over someone who only does it once every three or four years. It's like traffic court where most of us rarely get tickets but go up against a police officer and judge who know the system from daily experience.
tidester, host
Much like the car buying process can be. If you go in with full knowledge of pricing, options and financing, the house's edge is reduced to almost zero. If you go in and just want to put your money down on 00, you're likely to lose.
The only difference is that you're even less likely to walk away with half a million dollars at the car dealership.
Look! The topic! I can see it from here! :P
tidester, host
OK, I just never saw it.
rover,
Do you agree with what Audi said or doesn't his statement apply to your high end cars? I would think that your customers want the vehicles you sell and don't really care, within reason, what it costs because they aren't on a budget like most car buyers. They just WANT it!
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I understand that you sell less expensive cars but my question was do your HIGH END customers seem to care as much about price as your customers that buy the average priced pre-owned vehicles.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That's pretty much what I did. Like I posted earlier, I was bumping the dealership down during most of the negotiation. I was holding onto my original offer till the very end. I don't think the, "take it or leave it" offer will yield a lower price than what a skilled negotiator can get. Also, that(take it or leave it) is really not my style. :shades:
Two...maybe three times I got up to walk because they weren't giving me the price I wanted. Each time they would be, " Hold on Jip... let me check our numbers again, see if we can work something out." Or,after saying I would go home and check my numbers then come back if my numbers were in error, " Don't walk Mr. Jipster, 90% of buyers who say they will come back never do... we can work something out."
We were initially probably $2,000 apart... I got $1,900 of it(roughly). I used time investment (the dealers) to my advantage. The longer I was there, the more time and money they had invested in me...the better the deal for me. An informed buyer always has the house advantage over the dealer(ship). They need you a lot more than you need them.
So, for the uninformed/impulsive buyer, the longer they are at the dealership the better the odds are for the salesperson scoring the win. For the informed buyer and good negotiator, the longer the negotiation session(within reason), the better the price.
We negotiated purchases of anywhere from a few hundred dollars to more than $5M. Everyone of them was tough and I didn't win on many of them. I expect that's either how they got rich or expect to get richer.
We're all different. Me? I tell them upfront where they need to be. I don't do any "back and forth" to get there. You prefer the "back and forth". That's OK.
I tell them up front I'm in the market. I'd say that if negotiations started off and we're $2K apart, I'd tell them that we're too far apart to make a deal and leave.
They usually come back and ask where they need to be. I tell them. If they try to bump me...same result. I thank them for their time and move on.
That's about the extent of time I'm willing to make at the negotiation table.
I've had dealerships tell me the same thing about walking out the door and the percentages that return.
I agree that payment buyers are at a disadvantage because their's so much "fudge factor" involved with a payment deal. So are those who walk in "cold" with no reasonable expectation of where the final price is going to be. As we've said over and over again, research (here and elsewhere) and observation (dealer stock levels...demand for the model, etc) should give us a good indication of whether "our price" is doable.
That said, I usually go to a couple dealerships that carry the models I'm interested in to make certain my "deal" number is correct. I tell them I've already been to their competition. That gets to the "nitty-gritty" of the deal pretty quickly and dispenses with the protracted negotiations.
Just one thing to keep in mind, it's the salesperson's job to demonstrate the car and to "bump" your offer for more gross. The only person who can put a final number on the car is the SM and/or the GM, not the salesperson. If the SM can come away with a quick sale, they can move the salesperson to their next "up" to move another unit. If you give them a "doable" deal up front, and tell them they get one shot...no bump, 9 times out of 10 that'll get it done.
It's a numbers game. The more "ups" the salesperson has, the more cars they'll sell. The quicker they can move through the deal, the more money they'll make.
Ask the salespeople here about their "funnel" of prospects. The most successful ones will have a full funnel. They don't get that full funnel by expending a lot of time with protracted negotiations, either. If they do get in protracted negotiations, they better be getting good gross out of the deal.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's about the extent of time I'm willing to make at the negotiation table.
graph,
That’s pretty much the way I do it. As readers of this board know I only spend 30 minutes max doing it. Sounds like you have an even quicker trigger finger.
Between the two of us, I’m the nicer guy.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Then they of course get upset that we aren't willing to negotiate on teh car and you just can't get them to understand.
For other vehicles that are made in higher quantities there is some negotiation involved. These people didn't get wealthy by giving money away but at the same time they aren't typicaly grinders either.
j.....without a doubt....LOL!
Some like to negotiate back and forth. You and I, well...the deal is there or it isn't. You can tell that in short order.
As jipster says, the results are the same.
A few months ago, an acquaintance "fell in love" with a new 350Z 'vert. He just had to have it. He was dealing with a dealer that I don't particularly like. But, the dealer had the right color, the right options, etc. He told me he tried to get a discount but couldn't. On top of all that, he traded an '05 Miata that he was "upside down" on. Went in, offered $1,000 under sticker....dealer balked....seeing this guy salivate all over the car. Instead of walking out to shop a bit and doing some research, he paid MSRP and probably got $1,000 less than his trade was worth. He said he was afraid that the dealer would sell the car out from under him. Yeah....maybe, but.....
He asked me if I thought he got a good deal. I asked him if he was happy with the car and what he paid. He told me he was happy with the car, but doesn't know how much he'll drive it with the upcoming winter in OH. He realizes he's only going to drive it 6 months out of the year. He's also faced with the prospect of having to at least, buy $600 of winter tires, at worst, getting a winter beater. And, after the fact, wants to know if he got a good price. At this point, it really doesn't matter (as I mentioned to him).
I asked him if he wanted me to be honest or if he wanted me to be nice. I told him not to worry about it...it's only a car. Of course, he's going to be "stinging" for a few years until he can get "right side up" with it (didn't tell him that...he'll realize it soon enough without my help).
That said, there's one Maserati dealer in our 'burg. They're relatively new (less than two years). They've been running adds in the newspaper around here offering pretty big discounts on their new cars.
That tells me that around here, they overstimated the demand for exotic Italian machinery that costs high 7 figures/low 8 figures. Or, that there just aren't that many people who see the "value" of a car in that price range.
Cincinnati had one Rolls dealership several years ago. They pulled out. Matter of fact, I've only seen one person drive a Rolls around the city. He happens to be the richest guy in Cincinnati....former owner of the Cincinnati Reds, Chiquita, Penn Central, as well as an insurance company.
We're real conservative around here. Short of mega rich sports stars and their rides (mostly customized Escalades), BMW and Mercedes are considered "exotics" here. The owner of the Bengals actually drives around in a Chevy Lumina, I believe.
That being said, there was an issue a few months ago where Jake Plummer, starting QB for the Broncos, got involved in a road rage incident. What's funny is that Jake was driving a Honda Element at the time!
That Maserati dealership is still advertising '05 demo models.. I'm guessing that $100K car buyers like their cars brand new.
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Other than the Porche SUVs. Seen more of them in Cincinnati that Chicago by a 10-1 factor.
That said, there's one Maserati dealer in our 'burg. They're relatively new (less than two years).
Probably wish they had kept teh Ford dealership.
In my opinion the only thing worse than falling in love with a piece of sheetmetal on wheels is letting the dealer know it.
With this kind of a disease it's easy to understand how so many people are 'upside down' with their cars and it probably doesn't stop there. I'm willing to bet that they also buy suits that they can't afford.
I'm glad I'm too old to catch that disease,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Yeah....I keep seeing the same ads for those Maseratis for a couple of months now. Wonder if the dealership will offer 0% for 72 months...or, if they'll let you do an "invoice" deal on one (less holdback and marketing support, of course).
That dealership must do business across the country as I've seen their car ads in some of the airline magazines, too.
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ky....it's been awhile since I was out on Beechmont. Didn't know that the 'yota dealer out there had even moved. Wonder how much of a makeover they had to do to the dealership to convert it from Toyota to Maserati?
I was over there last year looking at a used car.. They really haven't done anything to the old showroom, but it's amazing how a few new Maseratis and one used Ferrari can dress up a showroom..
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Which Ford dealership? The one in Montgomery used to be a shared dealership but I can't remember the other brand. Is that the one?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
They still own the Jag and Land Rover dealerships... both separate from that location now..
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That's the one. Used to be Williams Ford long, long ago.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, if you gotta fall in love, that's the one to do it with! :shades: (Proud new owner of Redline 350Z roadster myself.)
I'm glad I'm too old to catch that disease,
I bought mine as a 56th birthday present to myself. Thought I was too old for it, too. Found out that passion knows no age limits.
Fortunately for me I'm also very stingy with my money and got an excellent deal on that roadster, so all's good.
But it's true that the car will be in the garage if there's snow on the road. Not a terrible thing here in Virginia, I don't expect to lose too many days and have the Maxima as a back-up anyway, but in Ohio - yeah, he'll lose some time there or he'd be smart to put snow tires on if the Z is his only car.
On the other hand - he'll be driving around with the biggest grin on his face during the 8 or 9 months when snow is not a factor.
I miss my Lumina that I replaced with a new '06 Civic. Ahh the space across the floor and room for stretching out on a long trip, but ouch the price of fueling up every 3 days (360 miles per tank.)
Friend of mine is looking to buy a small to mid-size car and prefers to buy American, so wondered how the Lumina worked out for you.
What I meant by this statement was; buying so often because you have such a bad case of hot pants for cars and not truly being able to afford them, you are bound to be 'upside down' before you know it.
I bought mine as a 56th birthday present to myself. Thought I was too old for it, too. Found out that passion knows no age limits.
There is nothing wrong with really wanting a given car as long as you don't drule over it in the presence of the dealer.
Fortunately for me I'm also very stingy with my money and got an excellent deal on that roadster, so all's good.
I've read your past posts so I know you're an informed buyer and given the above, I guess he didn't catch you druleing.
BTW, 56, you're still quite young. I was still at my fighting weight at that age (OK, maybe a little more).
Enjoy your wheels,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
As you say, different people have different ways to buy a car.
More than once I've told my aquiantances that their offer wasn't going to get the job done.
I'm glad to hear you say it. I'm still impressed by your contacts.
Oh... maybe that wasn't quite what you meant...
-----------------
Re being upside down and drooling in front of the dealer - nope, never in my life, not even when I was young and foolish, have I bought a new car before the previous one was paid for. Usually it was paid for for at least two or three years before I bought the next one. So far my record is 8 years. I may beat that with my Max - paid for completely when I bought it six years ago, 85,000 miles on it now, and I'm hoping to get at least 150,000 miles before replacing that one.
The Z I'll own as long as it's fun. Could be a long time. :shades:
Talking about falling in love with a car.....
I was living in the Bay Area 20 years ago....not far removed from my college days. I fell in love with a 280Z while out there. Walked into the dealership....not knowing "you know what from shinola". Within about 30 minutes, the salesperson had rung me up, not only for MSRP on the Z car, but full "zoot" on "mop and glow" shine package, pin striping, stain guard (the thing had leather interior) and a bunch of other goodies. I remember how proud I was with the purchase....until I called my Father and told him what I bought and how I bought it. He laughed at me and said..."for all you learned in college, you just got another Magna [non-permissible content removed] Laude on being taken at a car dealership". From that point forward I decided to watch, listen, learn, read and research so I wouldn't make that same mistake again.
That's why we all come here. No matter how much I think I know, I don't know much.....
I think that I am going to copy your last post and save it. That is a classic.
I don't mind spending a couple hundred more dollars with a dealer who is reputable and who I have dealt with before. It beats dealing with some of the sleazebags out there.
I could have told him that!
Since you and I are in the same boat (we're in and out so fast) we couldn't possibly recognize a good deal if it smacked us in the lips. I've been accused of not even giving the guy a chance but I know I have.
When you're too far apart early, its time to search down the road.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
They probably hope to snag one or two P&G or Fidelity executives - especially those from Boston.
j....I feel the same way. Anyone who's done research knows what the price market is for any particular model. The dealerships certainly know what number is doable. To walk into a dealership, and have to fight tooth and nail to get a deal, isn't my kind of place. There's just too many places you can go to find out what can/can't be done on any given model.
On the flip side of that, there's a lot of "fudging" that goes on with what the customer seems to do...from what I read around here.
Hide the trade-in's condition....or stating that someone's neighbor bought that shiny new "Hi-Zoot Supersport sedan" that everyone wants for $1,000 below invoice, etc.
I don't like to do any of that.
If I'm at a store where I don't have any contacts, it usually goes something like this (example purposes only)....
GG--Hi, I'm interested in that Accord you've got sitting here in the showroom.
Salesperson (SP)--OK...let's go test drive it...
GG--Nice car...how much you want for it?
SP--Sticker is on the car but to make a quick deal, I'll knock $500 off MSRP. Let's write it up at that price and I'll see what I can do.
GG--$500 off MSRP won't get it done. Looked at one just like this at the Honda store 5 miles from here. They're quoting $500 over invoice. But, I walked on that deal.
SP--Impossible...they can't sell it for that. They're low balling you.
GG--Do you really want me to walk out that door to find out? I'll buy it from you, right here, right now for $300 over invoice. Write it up.
SP--Can you give me another $150 on the deal?
GG--Nope! I'm all in!
SP--(5 minutes after talking to his SM) Mr. GG, You just bought yourself a new Accord.
But, I still think spending a little more time to get the car you want and your price is more efficient(time and money wise) than traveling to a couple dealerships, test driving, and schmoozing with the salesmen. Then trying to get a good shop price to compare... because you not serious about buying "right now" and the salesman/dealership knows it.
I'm thinking, in the example you gave, with a little bit of work(time) the dealership would have taken invoice(or less) instead of $300 over. What is "doable" certainly fluctuates from day to day as sales goals and other dealer incentives change. If a dealership invests 2 or 3 hours with a customer, they are more likely to want to get something out of it than someone they spend 15 minutes with. But, like you and I and many others have written in the past.... go with what you are most comfortable, and what works for you.
Would a dealer take invoice on a vehicle? Maybe...maybe not.
Depends on the car and demand in your area...has the dealership sold much the day you're there, etc.
It goes both ways, if YOU spend 2-3 hours negotiating on a car, you're not going to be as willing to walk away from the deal either after investing so much time....only to go somewhere else and invest that amount of time...once again.
Personally, I don't care if any dealership knows I'm in the market. Matter of fact, I believe it speeds things along to get to your number.
I haven't done any research on what an Accord goes for. My guess is, if there isn't any factory support, a dealership will let you walk at invoice...even after spending 2-3 hours at the table. Might be a different story if it's a Chevy Tahoe, though.
If it's going to take me 2-3 hours for an extra $50-$100 off, I'm not interested. I've got better things to do with my time. That's just me, though.
We just have different philosophies. I'm of the mind that a dealership is more likely to turn a skinny deal quickly than they are over hours of negotiation. You walk after a couple of hours, there's another "up" right behind you. They lost a sale. Big deal. It happens everyday to them. They aren't going anywhere. They just move on to the next buyer.
They deal with jmonroe or myself (or even bobst), they can live with a quick skinny deal because that frees them up to move another unit quickly and get to the next customer that comes through the door.
Putting myself in the salesperson's shoes, I'd rather take a skinny deal from someone I spent 15 minutes with than make a skinny deal over a couple of hours of back and forth. Probably "cut bait" after about an hour thinking it's not worth my time as a sales person.
Again, not saying your way is wrong. I'm just saying we really don't know if you get a good deal or not....after hours of negotiation. If I'm $2K apart from the get go, I'm not dealing with that dealership. It's going to take me too long to get to "the deal". Plus, I don't know, at the very end, if it's a good deal, or not. Let's get to the nitty-gritty, right up front. You're obviously a smart person. You know up front what number you want. Why put yourself through the "back and forth" over hours of negotiation?
I think what you're feeling is that if you don't put a lot of time in at the negotiation table, you're afraid you aren't getting a good deal. I know up front the number I've got is "good". I've researched it and I've checked it (just like you).
But, yeah...you got it right by writing I have a set price in mind when I go in. But, I am certainly not someone who is going to negotiate for 2-3 hours to get $50-$100 off(that's amatuer hour). I enjoy the give and take of negotiation , but not that much.
In many ways car buying is like a game. You know...like Monopoly. You can play the short version(you) or you can play the longer version which I prefer and enjoy. Either way you have to make the right moves to win the game.
Maybe I'm an old softee, but I really wouldn't be that comfortable presenting a take it or leave it offer to the salesperson for fear of offending them...or them taking it the wrong way. It really does defeat the purpose of them being trained to sell cars if all they are told is "don't lose the slip of paper my offer is on while taking it to the salesmanager." (per bobst) I'm sure not going to take it easy of the sales staff in negotiation, but hey...I do give them a fighting chance.
Do you really care about their training other than knowing how to combat it? You went to a dealer to buy a car. Use your training to get the car and get out of there. One of the guys in the biz said, (I think it was Audi, if I'm wrong I apologize) the longer you're there the better his chances are. I guess this takes you to your next comment below.
...I do give them a fighting chance.
If you stick around too long, I guess it does turn into a FIGHT. When I go to a dealership, I want a car not a fight (I get enough of them at home and I usually lose), so to avoid this I don't stick around that long.
I'm sure you get the deals you want the way you do it so that should make you happy. It's just not my way.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I think thats to long to negotiate a car price. I don't think I spent more than 45 minutes at any time negotiating. My last real purchase I think it took 20-25 minutes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I enjoy talking about this topic with everyone here.
On the one hand, there seems to be something of a mystical experience from what I've heard out of some when buying a car.
Don't know why. As you say, we get the same result....just in a different way.
As mentioned, I lived in the San Francisco area for awhile. It really is a great city. I've spent a lot of time in the Boston/New York area for work. Again, two great cities.
It may be beacause I grew up in the midwest. But, I didn't realize what that meant until I left (and subsequently came back).
Believe me, none of my friends in CA understood my move back to OH. A traffic jam to us is free flowing traffic on the 101. A million dollar home around me is a mansion. In the Bay Area, it's a little middle class home on a postage stamp sized lot. Culturally, most from New York, L.A., San Fran think we're a bunch of cow tipping hicks. We're as culturally diverse as anywhere in the country....especially over the past 5 years, or so.
We're not self-rightous. We just put a different emphasis on quality of life than some do on either coast.
New Yorkers feel life is too slow here compared to what they're used to. That's fine by us. Gotta live where your comfortable. I've never been more comfortable than I have living here.
As it relates to cars, at least in my neck of the woods, Ford and GM plants have been replaced by Honda and Toyota plants. Believe me, there's a bit of a "hangover" the populace here is still going through regarding that fact. We have one Ford plant left (and that may be gone soon) here. There used to be 3 GM plants and two Ford plants that people around here used to depend on.
Regarding buying a car, I think we put more of an emphasis on the trustworthiness of those we do business with (at least, I do)....whereas, rightfully or wrongfully, those on either coast don't care about that.
Amen to that. Folks sat in a 40 minute backup on I75 yesterday morning to get downtown Cincy. I used the alternate route-only somewhat slow on the other route.
>Regarding buying a car, I think we put more of an emphasis on the trustworthiness of those we do business with (at least, I do)....whereas, rightfully or wrongfully, those on either coast don't care about that.
Great comment. Really true here in Midwest. When I bought a car in 85 from a small town dealer, he didn't ask for a deposite. He said a handshake is all he needed and he couldn't afford to not hold up his end of the order because of his reputation with people. He said if the car's something he'd have trouble selling (real odd in some way) is the only time they want to bind a customer. Otherwise if I changed my mind after the handshake, it was up to me and my value sytem. Needless to say I bought six more cars from them.
But that store is now run by 'kids' of the three brothers who have retired out of the store inherited from their father. The main kid seems to be a business major from college days who is back to apply good business to the GM dealership... We'll see.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My technique (if you call it that) is to try and minimize the time stuck in the showroom. Of course, I will spend all day there looking at the cars, but try to minimize the negotiating time!
I use 2 practices: Be prepared with a price that I am willing to pay (based on research, Edmunds, and hopefully internet quotes or fixed prices like Autofair or the place in maryland). This gives me a good basis for drawing my line in the sand.
If I like the car and want to try for a deal, I ask for their first pencil to see where they are starting at. I will counter with my low target price (the hope to get, but don't expect, lower than I will ultimately be willing to go price).
At this point, there will be a run to the SM, the usually gnashing of teeth/your trying to kill us talk, and probably a reduced price. Depending on what they are down to, I might make a small bump if it seems worth it. This of course leads to another run to the SM.
Now, this all shouldn't take too long. And depending on how close we are and the vibe I am getting from the dealer, I may try to nail it down right now. More likely, I will tell them that since we aren't real close, I am going home to mull it over, but i make sure to reiterate my current offer.
What I expect to happen is, if I even make it out of the showroom, I will get a call shortly from the salesguy (on my last pruchase, I had a message before I even got home). I will then look to nail down the deal with a couple of phone calls.
For some reason, maybe the low be-back rate, if they get you negotiating on the phone, they get more aggressive trying to get to a bottom line price. If we come to a meeting of the minds, I tell them to start prepping, and wander back up to fill out the papers. A phone CC deposit is fine too if they want one.
I pretty much followed this method when I got my Accord last December, and I got close to my hope-for number, below my woulda paid number, and way below what they started at!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Anyway, through Edmunds (the forums) I had a spot on an out of state dealers wait list for $950 over invoice, although just after i got on, they jacked up the price (so I don't think they were at all worried if i wanted to back out and they had to sell for more to someone else!).
My local dealer happened to get in the exact van we wanted, so i brought the wife in. Sat down with the sales dude, and I told him if the offer was right, we would take it that day. They started with "hot model, MSRP". I told them I had the opportunity to buy elsewhere (but about 6 weeks out) for ~2K off sticker. pained look on his face..
Anyway, 1 trip to the desk, and he said they would sell to me (and only me!) on the cheap. He did ask if I could come up a few hundred for the convenience (plus this van had some accessories I wanted), so I think I came up $200-$300, and they said OK. TOok about a whopping 15 minutes.
Oh, and the other condition to the deal was I wouldn't tell anyone how cheap they sold to me!
The out of state guy was perfectly OK with taking me off their wait list. They had pelnty of more people on it to bump up, and a serious shortage of vans coming in!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.