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ruking: you dismiss the market share as insignificant but the Pruis outsells many brands, like Suzuki, Mitsubishi, and Subaru.
That's not hardly insignificant.
I'm pro-diesel and pro-hybrid but at times I think I'm the only one that supports both technologies.
So the 3-pedal manual is the mainstay of Mazda's Miata business, and Subaru's WRX business. FOR INSTANCE. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yes I would agree about the artificial anti diesel, pro hybrid and vice versa, and enemy camps scenarios. I used to put in posts that I actually seriously considered hybrids for 3 of the last car purchases. That little nuance is usually lost by those looking to vilify.. or put you in a ....camp.
For example, the Honda Civic hybrid used to have a manual transmission option. No surprise, the fuel mileage was actually BETTER for the manual transmission. Nifty was my thought.
Again grade school mathematics here. Is plus + 1, 2, 3 to 4 to 10 mpg better or worse? And.... when you multiply that by 255.4 M cars? (US registered passenger vehicle fleet, government agency, NHTSA figures) ....
So for example you can see how broad brush dismissive the current "death of the manual transmission" advocate really is. He seems hell bent on putting the manual transmission in an intellectual gulag, complete with imminent real world annihilation. So in fact there is a huge swatch of disingenuousness going on.
Then there is this link title "Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists" ..."Environmental engineers Mikhail Chester and Arpad Horvath at the University of California at Davis say that when these costs are included, a more complex and challenging picture emerges."... GO AGGIES !! (my sic)
A Miata is just so much more fun, though (6 speed manual, too, and 27mpg even in my city commute).
I'm sure the GM bean counters sat there and calculated how much they would save by not developing a new manual+clutch for their HD line, but it's exactly this type of short-sighted thinking that pushed GM towards bankruptcy.
How 'bout building the best truck? Not just the cheapest.
MINI has finally got it's tranny problems ironed out and have a decent manual 6 speed.
Maybe it's me ,but a manual is part of the fun of driving(engine breaking,shifting from third to sixth gear)
I was readind C@D and the Focus hot HB is $28000.00 in Europe. We will get a dumb down one. You wait and see.
Now if Roger Penski buys Saturn and brings over here from Europe the cars we can't get,you'll see alot of manuals.
Lastly, I think a manual gets better milage than a slushbox I don't care what the dealers,or manufacturers say. :shades:
Not to worry however. The loss or gain of mpg can easily be calculated.
On a particularly fuel efficient oem model, the EPA difference in mpg between automatic & manual is a min of 3.5% better mpg for a manual. I know the real world is better !!
The delta is MORE for most every other vehicle.
It might be another reason why some oems make models with NO choice: so you have NO basis for.... comparison.
Do you care what the EPA says? Parasitic losses may be lower with a well-designed DSG/twin-clutch :P since there is no interuption of power while shifting.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Out.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
ONLY to name a few:
VW (which during this extended economic D... and one of the few LARGE oems still making a profit) still offers the manual as standard equipment.
Corvette's Z06 and the much more costly and rarer ZR1 offers nothing but 6 spd manual. Mainstream Corvettes are about 25% manual with 75% automatics.
I don't rule out the purchase one day of another stick-shifter for the two of us. Maybe I'll buy a Tata Nano with a 5-speed stick.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
And even if you did, you would be "shifting" a gearless transmission, LOL. You have become numb to the driving experience, like so many Americans. We need a few more DRIVERS in this country! :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Which just proves the point that they're functionally useless and only serve to allow the driver to pretend that he has full control of the driving experience.
I have used the DSG in both city and highway driving, but to be honest only because it is/was there. While the shifts are way faster, the real utility has yet to "turn on the lights" so to speak.
Sure, I can use it like an manual transmission and don't double clutch anymore (ah, you can't unless you get out of the mode, and then why would you want to?) There is of course a learning curve for DSG use, for such as: set up for corners, fast sequential downshifting of 2 or more gears, next transition, massive and smooth application of torque coming out of a curve, etc Then if you are doing that, you are wondering in the back of your mind when and what it will cost to fix this puppy....A clutch is a $300-400 part. plus labor. A tranny is like 4k.
Oh how far you have come. LOL. If I were to copy and paste that comment on some of the environmentalist forums I visit they would hunt you down and picket your house. LOL But I know what you meant.
With the Government in control of GM and Fiat in control of Chrysler I have to wonder how long Halo cars will continue. And before I forget VGOA was down 16.7 percent on May 09. VWOA was down 15.5 percent all by itself. Just in case someone wants to know the figures rather than speculation. But I knew you knew that.
It is simply too easy to adapt to a vehicle without a third pedal. Driving has almost become an evil habit like smoking in our society and anyone that drives for pleasure is viewed as some kind of environmental terrorist. (A opinion not shared by me personally)
A friend of mine sent me this link from the WSJ. I view it much like Andy Rooney but it indicates some thoughts in this country that enthusiasts have tried to isolate themselves from.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203771904574173401767415892.html
The car is built by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. I love it so much that it numbs my love for the manual transmission away. I can trade out Tragically Hip CD's for Drive-By Trucker or Guess Who or Foghat CD's, too, while driving!
You see, it's not a limitation I'm dealing with. It's a liberation! Who said anything about burning bra's. I'm talkin' automotive here! :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
This of course is in the context of the realities of scale. So for example if one lives within a 1.5 mile radius of EVERYTHING they can possibly want and or do.... count yourselves luck. Most modern zoning laws preclude this, aka it is against the law.
Some easy examples. Downtown's: Boston, NYC, San Francisco, Portland, Wash DC (but then you take your life into your hands), a lot of college towns..... But then you are normally paying through the nose for almost EVERYTHING.
It is a shame that since automatic transmissions are becoming a greater to a majority of the percentage of the passenger vehicle fleet, they still charge a premium for the automatic. For a really check, $ 500 to 1,100 more. When you multiply that by whatever percentage (some say 90%) of 255.4 M vehicles (or 229.86 M * $1,000), not counting the almost factorial cost to fix a lesser percentage of broken ones... it is pretty easy to see why the vendors favor it. $ 229,860,000,000.
Out.
Okay. Duly noted.
There's a person on this board who says essentially the same thing, except he's not "out." He continues to beat his dead horse and beat it and beat it.
One hopes you are well and truly "out."
One would think that driving a car is actually serious business to you. Take a long listen to The Guess Who's #10 album. Then follow that up with their live album called 'Live at the Paramount.' Eat a few Krispy Kreme donuts, and swoosh them all down with a tall glass of Coca-Cola with 4 chunks of ice.
Then start preparing a steak dinner. Eat that. Take a drive in your car. Smell the fresh breeze. Take a drive to New Mexico to White Sands and tour the Trinity site. Only don't stay longer than an hour, because there's enough nuclear pollution left over there to kill a million beefy cows, plus about 100 million Americans, if they should linger there.
Start writing a novel about the American automotive scene, and how it is changing.
Start studying up on Chinese cars. They're on their way, give it about 9-12 months from now. Soon Chinese all-electrics will be here.
Is this making any sense to you? Re-read your posts. You have too much pent-up anger inside of you. Pop another Krispy-Kreme, man.
I tell you and everyone on here. You don't need a manual-trannied car. It took me about 10 minutes at the west Phoenix, AZ, Mitsubishi dealer I bought my '08 Lancer GTS at to realize I didn't need a stick in my hot new car.
It's about the car. It's about the journey. It's about good food, great pets, a loving wife, a God who loves you and wants you to love him in return. Share the love, not the hate. Quit hating. Love.
Love. Love is all you need. Now digg this to about 1,000 of your online friends. Start thinking about the next NBA team that David Stern owes Seattle basketball fans. Support Seattle in their efforts to get another team.
Approve of Madonna and her efforts to better the life of an underprivileged African child. Love. Deeply, from your heart. Before it's too late.
BTW-are you a Portland Trailblazer fan? Or do you hate NBA teams and players because of all the money they make?
And yes, I am completely serious. I love the things I've mentioned on this post. I love them deeply. Here's our fundamental difference, my car-nutty friend. I don't hate those who love manual trannies in their cars. I love that they love them. Think deeply about that. It really has deep meaning to it, meaning that goes beyond cars.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I think the Indian and Chinese cars will go the way of the Japanese cars when they first entered the US market, especially if they follow the W. Edwards Deming TQM link title, ( albeit, given them 30 years). As I recall you, could not pay me to own a Japanese OEM at the time (1960's,1970's)
Interesting nexus to the topic, almost EVERY oem and model had a manual transmission option. Indeed if I ever were to buy one I would have wanted a manual transmission.
..."Start studying up on Chinese cars. They're on their way, give it about 9-12 months from now. Soon Chinese all-electrics will be here."...
I think the Indian and Chinese cars will go the way of the Japanese cars when they first entered the US market, especially if they follow the W. Edwards Deming TQM concept link title, ( albeit, given them 30 years). As I recall, you could not pay me to own a Japanese OEM at the time (1960's,1970's)
Interesting nexus to the topic, almost EVERY oem and model had a manual transmission option. Indeed if I ever were to buy one, I would have wanted a manual transmission. I think the ones that really caught my attention were the Datsun 240 Z link title and the Toyota 2000 GT. link title (both manuals)
Since production of the Toyota 2000 GT was app 337 units, it was more like...a "holy grail" quest by Toyota.
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/feb2009/bw20090217_972720.htm?chan- =top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_lifestyle
Now read closely and tell us what transmission is offered. If the Japanese are putting these CVTs in those tiny little cars you have to ask why they don't want a manual if it were lighter and less expensive. Unless the CVT the Japanese are using is lighter and less expensive to produce. It is an economy car after all. And this one even comes in AWD. I understand some Kei cars are gas, full electric and hybrid. If someone were interested in Kei cars would they still be interested if they were a CVT getting 60 MPG with a gas engine and a CVT?
Plus, they have tiny little engines that probably need to rev like mad anyway, so combine that with low torque, and the CVT makes a lot of sense, since they can use a very lightweight version.
You also have the crazy traffic in the cities where these cars are often at home, so that also makes sens for an AT. And they are probably not gonna be particularly fast even with a 5 speed!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Those might have a very limited niche audience, but I doubt they'd ever crack more than a percentage or two of market share here. Not enough to cause even a blip on oil imports.
The bottom line is a rule of thumb is: for every 100 #'s, the delta (change +/-) is app 1 mpg.
An automatic Honda Civic weighs 2515 #'s and gets 38-42 mpg. A manual Honda Civic weighs 2449 #'s and gets +1 to 2 mpg more.
(a side bar here:Honda has done a GREAT job in both weight reduction (BUT still heavier @ +66 #'s) and LOWEST difference of mpg between an automatic and a manual. Most automatics get between MINUS -3 to -7 mpg. LESS )
A 5 spd (wish it were a 6 spd, it would get at least 1 mpg more) VW Jetta TDI weighs 2950 #'s and gets 48-52 mpg, a difference of 435 #''s to 501 #''s.
So for example, if I could use the same engine that powers the heavier vehicle and put it in the lighter vehicle and of course recalibrate the gearing etc etc, just the LIGHTER weight alone would add app 4.35 mpg to 6.35 mpg. The range would be then be 52.35 to 58.35 mpg.
So what do you think would happen with say a SUB - 2449 #'s or say 1800 #'s vehicle?
But, isn't the diesel engine itself part of that extra weight? The beefier block?
It may be hard to separate the two, is what I mean.
So for example, VW has a "spring" coding system, that in effect takes into account the weight and handling differences. But if you weigh the springs side by side (one for say I4, I4 turbo, V6, I4 TDI) they would almost literally be the same weight.
link title
link title
..."To work with a diesel's power and torque delivery, we prefer the GTD's six-speed manual, though this six-speed, wet-type dual-clutch automated manual is our favorite version of the dual-clutch DSG gearbox. Any diesel needs serious throttle and shift work to go fast, so we want the control of a manual transmission."...
http://www.articlesbase.com/cars-articles/cars-with-automatic-transmission-are-h- - ere-to-stay-879704.html
http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/friday/business/ny-cars-h- - ondaautomatic1-2009apr01,0,609851.story
http://www.allbusiness.com/professional-scientific/scientific-research-developme- - nt/478369-1.html
I think it's very neat but they shouldn't mislabel what it is - an extremely economical runabout.
And it's actually quick, period, not just "for a car with great fuel economy".
Top if off with a price lower than the GTI and you've got a winning formula.
Wonder if it'll make it to the US? Probably not.
This is PURELY a swag, but given a 2.0L 4 cyn 140 hp/236 # ft @ 3300 #'s Jetta TDI diesel:
SAY this 2 cyn is a 1.0L 70 hp/118 # ft: that is 13.98 to 1 vs 9.3 to one.
So as a comparison a Corvette Z06 @ 385 hp/385 # ft @ 2950 is 7.67 to one.
I think this 1,100 # bio diesel rig would be a GO cart with the 2.0 L 4 cyn 140hp/236 #ft@ 1100#'s or 4.66 to one !!!!
Thank goodness they still offer a 6-speed manual with that thing, as that's the only way they will get my dollars (and in a couple of years, that actually might happen, I was quite taken with it), and I daresay there are quite a few people who would say the same.
Not to mention this is yet another example of a car in a price-sensitive segment where the automatic costs $1000 more than the manual.
And, unfortunately, another model in which the manual is only available in the lowest 2 out of 4 trim levels. :-(
If you want the Rockford Fosgate stereo and the alloy wheels, you are either accessorizing from the dealer at full retail or settling for an automatic. :sick:
But with revised CAFE already up and over the horizon I consider it encouraging that Nissan came out with Cube 2.0 (the first gen was JDM-only) with a 6-speed manual. Entry-level cars and sporty models, mark my words, will carry available manuals for the foreseeable future.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
He liked the Mazda's stick but said he is liking the CVT a lot. Just took a little getting used to. This is a younger, adventure kind of guy - kayaker, skier, etc.
I am renting a "Ford Focus" sized compact. I will probably ask for a Nissan Versa instead and I may ask for the 6-speed to mix things up a bit. Seattle's traffic can be nasty, though, so I'll probly opt for the automatic. I'll be back on ASAP to tell y'all how it went with the Budget car rental experience.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The car is built by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts.
Translation /was built by nearly bankrupt Japanese automaker that went from making sporty vehicles to secretary transporters/
. I can trade out Tragically Hip CD's for Drive-By Trucker or Guess Who or Foghat CD's, too, while driving!
So what you are saying is the car is fun to do anything but drive? :P
I have been around long enough to remember when the Maxima was offered in a manual. The Murano never was nor was the Rogue. I remember when the Pathfinder was offered with a manual, not anymore. Does Toyota offer the 4Runner in a manual anymore?
The other question is what you make of the article on the changing transmission choice in India. If cost alone would have changed anything wouldn’t you have thought it would have taken longer for manuals to start losing market share there?
It is no secret that gearing can in fact be and is adjusted (as I have said in a prior post). Again the advantage goes to the manual, unless the $1190-$1380 premium, and the factorially more repair costs to fix when the automatic transmission goes bad is not a big deal.
Without a doubt the advantage would shift to the CVT automatic if it were the same price and/or cheaper than the manual. That is of couse the repair costs were in fact cheaper than the manual also. Neither is true despite you taking umbrage to the issues.
Edmunds.com was "real happy" with both offerings on the 09 Sentra
..."Cons
Engine drone gets tedious with CVT, mediocre handling, stiff ride can be harsh, manual transmission's clunky shift action."...
In the case of the Nissan CVT vs slushbox, it is truly a case of the slushbox losing market share. . " The automatic slushbox is NOT even an option !! But then again the CVT populations are hardly measurable.
In addition, Nissan was not able to offer consistent better mpg with the CVT as the CVT is -1 mpg C/H WORSE than the 6 spd manual in the very good and popular Altima line. They again don't even offer the automatic "slush box. Funny how they kept the 6 spd manual and utterly dumped the automatic slushbox?
Add to that Subaru's recent announcement that their CVT beats the 6 speed manual in the Legacy by a whopping 4mpg!
http://media.subaru.com/index.php?s=43&item=85
Who knows what real-world mileage will be like, but certain CVT applications seem to get it right.
The point was to demonstrate that many of the arguements about manuals being less expensive and getting better fuel mileage are addressed in the articles posted. And the same arguements for manuals were originally made before the women of India started driving. It is a generally understood engineering principle that you can get the best fuel mileage by running the engine at the best RPM for torque and Horsepower. Industrial engines have been operating this way for decades.
Shifting has never been a customer short coming for Automatics. The average customer just wants to get in and get from point A to point B. Cost and fuel mileage have traditionally been a sacrifice people have had to assume to get one. People were not only willing to sacrifice shifting for ease of use they were willing to pay more to do so. They have done so at a rate of better than 9 to 1. The CVTs and DSGs offer a solution to this trade off. While technology can be used to get better fuel mileage out of a Automatic type of transmission like a CVT or DSG they is nothing technology can do for the one draw back manuals have than caused so many to accept the automatic. Having to learn to shift and doing so in heavy traffic. Those are maybe the two most common reasons people give for preferring automatics.
It will be interesting to see how the industry will have to change to meet this new economy and new set of regulations.
Every lathe and mill I've used has had a gearbox that lets you manually select the optimal speed. Even my self-propelled lawnmower has a manual gearbox that lets you pick the speed it pushes.
Shifting has never been a customer short coming for Automatics. The average customer just wants to get in and get from point A to point B.
I don't know if "one size fits most" is the best argument here. I think that is generally accepted that consumer preference is towards a slushbox. Driver's preference (whether that be for economy, control, sport, or however else its defined) tends to be towards a manual.
Automatic motorcycles are not new. Honda has been trying since the 70s to get acceptability in the market. Scooters are usually automatics (or single speed) and the flop known as the Honda Pacific Coast (circa mid-80s) was an automatic.
And what percentage of consumers prefer manuals? And what influence does customer preference have? If they preferred manuals wouldn't your argument have predicted that the CR-V would have continued with a manual when less than 10 percent bought them? One enthusiast’s truck used to be the 4Runner. Lots of them came in manual but alas does the 2009? I am not sure but I didn't notice one listed on Edmunds Toyota site. So what did the few enthusiasts have to say about them dropping them? Wasn't the Maxima considered a sport Sedan? Didn't the drivers care enough so that Nissan would have at least offered in Manual?
When researching large industrial engines I discovered that they get the best fuel mileage out of Diesel and Gas generators, the huge ones, by running them at a constant speed. Not by revving them up and down. That way they can predict how long one will run on a measured amount of fuel. The new modern Cruise ships are using electric hybrids that out perform traditional ships by having big gas or diesel engines running at a constant speed providing power to large electric motors providing more power and better fuel mileage than can be achieved by running a motor at higher and lower RPM to increase or decrease speed. You can easily research this on modern ship design. In fact that is very much like how a electric diesel train works. Look at the Specifications on the Infinity just to name one.
I do not disagree that there is a skill to driving a manual nor that some people prefer it. I simply believe that at some point there will not be enough people that prefer shifting themselves to warrant making a manual transmission unless it can be sold for enough to justify producing them.
This debate has never been about preferences because it has been agreed that some people prefer to row their own gears. It isn't even that manuals will always be around because we all know sooner or later the ICE engine is doomed if oil is as some say in short supply. The argument is simply when we will see another advancement in automotive design and how long can manuals hold on. Originally I was willing to accept Nippons suggestion that entry level cars and sports cars would be around as long as I am still able to drive. But I now believe that the economy and government takeover of GM will accelerate the move away from manuals faster than I thought.