The Future Of The Manual Transmission

ruking1

I taught one of my daughters a 5 speed manual (diesel) with methods pretty close to what you describe. It took all of 15 mins. Essentially the issue and comfort level is finding the friction point and knowing what to do with it under different conditions. After that it is practice, practice and more practice.

ateixeira

I can see the original point, though.

My new Miata has a 6 speed, with Reverse up and left, next to 1st. So there are 4 gates side by side, R 1 3 5.

They spacing is definitely closer than my 93 Miata's 5 speed, which only had 1 3 5. That was so easy to shift I taught my kids to shift for me.

Not on the new one.

mcdawgg

My 6 speed has reverse up and left, but you have to lift up a ring to get it over to this gate.

lilengineerboy

My new Miata has a 6 speed, with Reverse up and left, next to 1st. So there are 4 gates side by side, R 1 3 5.

The other car I drove often besides the '81 Peugeot 505 TD was an '81 BMW 528i, a 5-speed with reverse up and to the left next to first. Once I got used to it, it never bothered me. The last BMW 6-speed I drove had reverse in the same spot.

I miss the 528 and almost miss the 505.

ateixeira

Mine you push down.

Still, though, with 4 gears side-by-side, the spacing between each is smaller, for sure.

Having said that, short throws are fine, it's just a bit harder to tell which gear you've selected.

stever

I learned to shift on a 3-on-the-tree '57 Chevy. It's a wonder I still like sticks, it was such a pain to learn on. Going to a floor shifter was much nicer. Throw in a hand brake and it was perfect.

xwesx

I find the column shifters awkward/clumsy as well. I did not learn on one, though. I learned on a '61 International tractor when I was ten years old. After that, every vehicle I have driven is a breeze in comparison! I drove an old '50s dump truck for a few weeks when I was 17. That was interesting (each gear had a high/low and I had to shift constantly for hills, etc), but was still simple compared to the tractor. That tractor was so touchy about when/how one shifted... it sure taught me patience (which was a big deal for me!).

andys120

I learned to shift on a 3-on-the-tree '57 Chevy. It's a wonder I still like sticks, it was such a pain to learn on. Going to a floor shifter was much nicer. Throw in a hand brake and it was perfec

I learned shifting on a VW Beetle with a light clutch and a nicely located floor shifter which was relatively easy and fun. Having driven a column shifter car (early 60s Saab
95) I can see why people abandoned manually shifted cars in droves during the 1950s.

My Mom used to tell me she couldn't understand why I drove sticks and I'd tell her that the nice full-synchro floor shifts in my cars were light years ahead of the non-synchro (column-mounted) 3 speeds she drove back in the day. I'd ask her to just drive one of my cars but she never would.

I might add that a console mounted Automatic, especially with good software backing it up, is light years ahead of the old column mounted automatic shifters.

stever

Yeah, I drove a few VW Bugs and a Bus in the late 60s and even the bus was fun to shift.

I like the placement of automatic shifters on the dash, but I guess I'm in a minority there. I'd rather have the knee room instead of a big console between the front seats.

Part of my wife's shattered left fibula isn't healing very fast, so we may be out of the manual transmission market for good at this point. :sick:

ruking1

I saw this article in the loca rag. link title

The web site is link title

plekto

One mistake in that article, though.

Manual equipped cars other than the very very budget models always command a better resale price if you sell it private party. And they sell within hours or days, because of a large pent-up demand among enthusiasts.

Also, classic cars are almost always manual. Nobody wants an automatic, well, ANYTHING from the 50s or 60s. Or even the 70s and 80s if they can manage it. A good case in point is how old Mercedes from the 70s are nearly worthless with automatics. Not because they are worthless per se, so much as they are just impossible to actually sell.

Even new, go look at the prices for a Celica or a Mustang. Automatics sit and sit and sit and the manuals are literally gone in 48 hours or less every time.

andys120

Nobody wants an automatic, well, ANYTHING from the 50s or 60s. Or even the 70s and 80s if they can manage it. A good case in point is how old Mercedes from the 70s are nearly worthless with automatics

Not true! Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of 1950s classics knows that practically every American collector car of the period was sold with an A/T, most were not even available with manuals.. Chrysler 300s, T-birds, Cadillacs and other A/T cars of the era are highly desired by collectors.

Some 1960s classics like the Buick Riviera and T-bird were only available in A/T form yet are still highly collectible. Even A/T Mustangs and Camaros will sell well if they are in good condition.

1970s Mercedes were almost all A/Ts except for some 280SLs and some low end cars.

mcmax

I learned how to drive a manual in a 1967 Camaro RS 3-speed. Once I learned that, the manual Datsun, VW, Escort, Corolla and Accord that followed were a breeze! Stopped driving manuals after kids arrived... now they're older and one of our cars is an '08 Mazda 3 (not the happy face!). Great car and I love it w/the manual.

plekto

I did say "if possible". :P

The value and desirability of the same classic car with a manual versus an automatic if both were offered is almost always higher(and sells quicker). And the Mercedes from the 70s... well they did make manuals of almost every last model. Finding one can be nearly impossible, though.

When one does come up for sale, like an imported(not gray market but their old overseas delivery option from the 70s and 80s) S class with manual I saw last year, it's gone immediately for the asking price.

andys120

And the Mercedes from the 70s... well they did make manuals of almost every last model.

They may have made manual versions of every model but imported almost none and I don't think there were any stick-shift S class or Rl07 SLs except for gray market cars.
Those 2 models account for most of the really desireable '70s era Benzes.

ruking1

While this is a very small current population VW's both gassers and turbo diesels list (6 spd) manual transmissions as the standard offerings.

The same is true of the Audi line. Needless to say lines that do not offer manual transmissions are more the exception than the rule.

nippononly

As of May 1, 2008 when this article was written, the manual take rate for Civics and Mazda3s was 18%. For Imprezas, it was 28%. Pretty cool!

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0805_civic_mazda3_impreza_corolla- _comparison/index.html

That's what, 60K Civics per year at least, being sold with a stick? It's nice to know there are still a goodly number of people out there that actually want to DRIVE their cars......

tallman1

Way cool. My next Honda may have to be a Civic.

srs_49

I just bought a new car. I wanted a 5 or 6 speed, and started out looking at 3-4 year old vehicles - things like used BMW 3 series or an Infinity G35. I was even entertaining a CTS. But, trying to find a manual proved to be a daunting task. I found a couple of infinity's that matched the 6-spd criteria, and one 2006 3-series at the local used car super store. At the local BMW dealership where they had an acre or two of used Bimmers, there was not a single one with a manual. Another dealer had 30+ BMW's listed in the Sunday paper, but only 4 of them were sticks. Very sad.

So, in the end I ended up buying a new G37S (6MT). More than I was originally planning of spending, but at least I got what I wanted.

xwesx

Pretty car! I couldn't own something like that where I live. I would get thirty feet down my neighborhood road before I high-centered it. :P

plekto

You need a nice 4x4 Tacoma, then. Yes, it does still come with manual if you want

Shoot, my old truck could drive *over* a Smart Car and hardly slow down... :P

nippononly

One thing that I must admit IS true is that dealers don't put manuals on the lot. If you're looking for a used car, you pretty much have to go private party except for models that came ONLY in stick.

srs_49

Yeah, that's what I was finding. I also test drove the 2009 Impreza WRX (it was close to my original price-point), and it only comes with a manual tranny. But, Subie dealers around here only had 1, maybe 2 on the lot to test drive. Some didn't have any!

nippononly

WRXs are imported from Japan, and Subaru has been slow to restock the Japanese models post-C4C.

My local dealer usually has a dozen or more, right now they only have 1 or 2 just like your local dealer.

xwesx

Not for me. Maybe an older model (mid/early '90s or older), but nowadays they make for a miserable driving experience as they are severely isolated from the road. For primary drivers, we have a Forester, which will get us through any weather, and a well-used Escort (which does drag bottom now and again!) that does pretty well, though I occasionally have to drag it up the driveway with one of the other vehicles. Both are manuals, of course!

ateixeira

Subaru may be the last of the mohicans, i.e. the last Asian make to offer manuals in so many different cars. Slowly the option is disappearing from competitors.

stickguy

Honda seems like they want to eliminate it for the Accord. WOuldn't surprise me if that happens soon. The civic and fit should keep the faith though.

Toyota? Probably be happy to go completely clutchless, but it could linger in their smallest units, and maybe some scions.

Nissan is CVT happy.

ateixeira

They dropped it from the CR-V with this most recent redesign.

nippononly

Yeah, but they are following Toyota down the ill-conceived path of offering auto-only trims, like the Legacy SE and everything with the H-6. That is discouraging.

One thing that IS nice is that among the performance-oriented models, their dealers still stock a healthy proportion of manuals.

ateixeira

I don't think the H6 ever was offered with a manual tranny.

From the original VDC Outback 3.0 to the Tribeca to the new 3.6l H6 Legacy, all have been automatics.

The turbos get manuals, but they did drop the Forester XT manual.

nippononly

But the H-6 gets a 6-speed manual option in Japan, right? So the R&D on it is done, they just choose not to offer it to the slothful Americans. :sick:

ateixeira

Now that you mention that, yes.

But let's keep in mind it was never EPA-certified, so they haven't jumped thru all the hoops yet.

oregonboy

I test-drove both manual and automatic Forester XTs when they first came out. The manual was WAY more fun... not even close... no comparison. :mad:

nippononly

While Subaru continues to use an outdated automatic with only 4 widely spaced ratios, that is not surprising....

ateixeira

Yup, when it came out C&D hit 60mph in 5.4 seconds.

That's not a typo, it outran the Lamborghini Countache 4000S in the same issue (when the Lambo was new).

80s super car performance.

The auto did it in the 6s, still quick but not nearly as impressive. Plus they later relaxed the gearing so it went to high 6s/low 7s.

nippononly

from a review of the 2009 WRX today at Autoweek...

....I thought this was an STI because it felt like it has much more power than it's rated at and is really fun to drive. And I would like to thank Subaru for not joining in the latest fad in making this more attractive to the masses by putting in a paddle-shift transmission and taking out the fun manual. That was the best part of this car.

You got that right! ;-)

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091019/CARREVIEWS/910199996

ateixeira

That's especially good because they're usually not too kind to Subarus.

I used to subscribe, but then I started to feel like it was AutoSnob, i.e. they focused way too much on expensive cars and never took value into consideration.

Their idea of a "cheap" car was an EVO or STI, and at $35 grand or so, that's not hardly cheap to an average American.

Nice to see them praise a car under $30 grand for once.

nippononly

Overall, I think your criticism of Autoweek is well-placed, and I also cancelled my subscription last year. I just glance in on them once in a while on-line, and noticed this so I figured I HAD to post it!

Of course, the WRX isn't much under $30K these days, gone are the days of the $22K Subaru hot hatch. :-(

ateixeira

I remember they shared some demographic information about their subscrivers and on average they owned 5.2 cars.

They make a bit more $$$ than the average household, to say the least.

stever

Oh oh, I'm messing up their subscriber stats. Maybe 5.2 cars over the last 30 years (two of which were manuals).

That's what happens when the coupon sites post free subscriptions now and then.

carstryke

which car manufactuer has the best/smoothest manual tranny. and what are your guys favorite car because of the stick.

shipo

The slickest manual transmission that I've ever driven was in a 1985 Mazda RX-7. While I haven't driven them, it is my understanding that the current Miata, RX-8 and the Honda S2000 have a shifter feel that is very similar to the old RX.

Best regards,
Shipo

plekto

The best are VW/Audi/Porsche/etc on their better models, Honda(S2000, etc), and BMW(when they offer a real manual anymore that is). Mazda is in the second tier, IMO, with Mercedes, Toyota, and a few others. Still good, though.

But all are a giant gap ahead of Ford, GM, and Hyundai.

shipo

I guess what constitutes the best tranny is subjective as I very much disagree with your list. I used to work for Mercedes-Benz and drove any number of their offerings, I've owned BMWs, Audis, VWs, and Mazdas, and have driven any number of Porsches, and so far at least, the tranny in the 1985 RX-7 was in a class by itself.

I'd classify them in the following way:
- 1st -- 1985 Mazda RX-7 (and possibly the S2000 and RX-8)
- 2nd -- Porsche and BMW 1, 3 and 5 series manual transmissions
- 3rd -- Audi, VW, Honda (FWD), Mazda manual transmissions
- 4th -- Mercedes-Benz
- 5th -- All the rest

Best regards,
Shipo

ateixeira

The 6 speed in my 2008 Miata is quite good but I'll say that my 1993 model was actually slightly better in that regard.

No doubt that 93 Miata is the best shifter I've ever sampled - for me.

I took the shifter apart to add gear oil to the turret a couple of times. It's basically drowned in gear oil (75w90 so it's thick, but not grease-thick), so you're literally stirring a pot of gear oil. Sooooo smooth, liquid. Literally liquid.

This is subjective because some people prefer a click-clack metal feel, like, say, the Honda S2000. I don't. To me it takes more effort to shift and it's not at all forgiving, you have to be perfectly precise else it won't enter the gate.

Some may argue that skill should be required for a "good" manual, but I think one that finds the gear more easily wins.

colloquor

I'd have to vote for the Honda S2000. It's the best shifting gearbox I've ever used, and I've been driving manuals since 1964, primarily European and Asian. You can shift the S2K by just flicking the shifter with your fingers. The 1966 Lotus Elan I owned was pretty good as well in the shifting department.

On another topic, my daughter is trying to buy a Nissan Cube (yes, I know!) with the 6-speed manual, and it's extremely difficult to find. It appears that around 5% of the Cubes are delivered with manual transmissions - at least from statistical data from several dealerships in the region. It looks like to get the combination of color choice, options, and the 6-speed manual, her only choice is to order one.

xwesx

her only choice is to order one.

And that is, I must say, an excellent choice.

xwesx

For me, the best tranny was from a 1963 International tractor. These modern autos don't even come close.

I jest, I jest. :P

tallman1

I haven't driven high-end manuals but my 06 Accord has the smoothest stick/clutch of any Japanese or American car I've driven.

ateixeira

The throw must've been, what, 3 or 4 feet from one gear to the next?

The S2000 does have very close gates and very short throws, I just don't think it's very forgiving, plus I don't like the noise it makes - the clink-clank of metal on metal.

It's the type of gearbox that you have to practice with, and once accustomed to it I'm sure you'd love it.

But...I don't think a gear box with a learning curve is necessarily the best. The best should be easy for anyone to use, hop in, drive off, not even think about the effort to shift.