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Let me ask it another way. How many folks would buy a 2010 Porsche Carrerra S (twin turbo) because it has the best (real or perceived) 6 speed manual ?
1980 Datsun 210:
Clutch was so worn out the buyer I sold it to had to replace it. Truck-like long throws for shifting. Very light clutch pedal, at least. C-.
1986 Chevy Sprint:
Rubbery-est shifter you'd ever try. Had to fight to find 1st or reverse every time. Light clutch, but I had to replace that. I'm sure it was engineering to handle all those raging 49 horses. Grade: D.
1991 Ford Escort GT:
This was really a Mazda gearbox, from the Protege, but it had trouble finding first and reverser. The 2-3 shift also forced a short delay in neutral. The clutch was fantastic - light, predictable. Overall a C+ though because it would force miss shifts or delayed shifts.
1998 Subaru Forester:
Light clutch, well defined gates. Throws were a bit long, but an SPT shift kit fixed that. Can't remember ever once missing a shift. The knob stuck out far and tall, though, because the seats were high (it's a lifted WRX). B+ before the SPT shifter, A- after it was installed.
1993 Mazda Miata:
A+. Light, fun, precise, what every other shifter ought to be.
1995 Mazda 626 V6 ES:
Not as good as the Miata's. Heavier clutch pedal. Good shifter, though. Smooth clutch engagement. Solid B.
2002 Subaru Legacy:
Not good. The clutch take-up was too abrupt, and the worst part was the on/off throttle. Impossible to start off smoothly. The shifter itself was OK, but the throttle spoiled the fun. Overall a D+.
2008 Miata 6 speed:
Gates may be a bit too close together compared to the 5 speed of my old Miata. Reverse is next to 1st so the gates aren't as distinct. Clutch is not as light at 93 but still lighter than average. The 93's clutch was also less abrupt but that was probably due to wear. Still gets a sold A- overall.
That's been my experience, YMMV.
Example: remember those early Porsche 911 models where you had the push the clutch pedal in and then down? Those were awful.
Enthusiasts defended them, arguing you needed skill to pilot such a wonderful car, blah blah blah.
I say Baloney. It was an awful clutch to use. It took all of your concentration and distracted you from the task of driving.
My buddy, who owned a 911 Targa (not sure the year, late 80s maybe), would argue with me all the time. He didn't keep that car for long - sold it less than a year after buying it used. I'm sure it was hard to live with that clutch.
The action/throw/usability of the 05 GTO 6-speed is a substantial downgrade compared to that Hurst-Y2K-Z28.
My Jetta TDI clutch/shifter is very smooth and so easy to shift, but throws are long.
I recall my 1990 Civic Hatchback 4-speed had a very nice clutch/transmission/shifter, again with long throws.
This looks lookin' pretty good to me, though.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Given my background in learning to shift using "work" machines, I emphasize the "connection" to the machine. I like vehicles that allow me to feel the mechanics of the vehicle I am operating. Obviously, some isolation is good, but I cannot stand the feeling that my input is not necessarily connected to the machine. In other words, I like to feel how the vehicle responds to my input.
As such, I don't mind the likely rudimentary transmissions of my '69 Chevy C20 or '98 Escort. I tell them to go into a gear, I feel them do it, and they do it with reliable consistency. What gets me is a clutch pedal that is over-boosted (isolated) or a clutch plate that is too grabby when combined with said boosting.
I'm an odd duck, though. Anyone who knows me will confirm it.
That thing would clunk-clunk into gear. It was light, easy, but the noise and feel was not good. You never missed a shift but it felt loose, imprecise.
I'm not saying the S2k is like that, because it's pretty much the opposite.
Over the last 31 years, I have owned Japanese cars and German cars: a Toyota Corolla, Datsun 310, (before Nissan), 4 Audi's (5000S, 90, 2.7T, A4), Nissan Pathfinder SE, BMW 330xi, 2 VW Jetta's. I like the smooth-as-silk shift of the Audi which is consistent across the entire model lines, don't like my bimmer shifter which is a bit stiff, VW is fine.
My '82 Tercel was smooth, and half the time I would skip using the clutch. I can't really complain about the older Miata, the Fit Sport, Mazda3 hatch, Elantra Touring or Versa I've driven in the last six months. I was more attuned to the torque than the shifting on those cars. The Miata was the best, followed by the Elantra in that group.
The one that stood out for me was the Matrix. It was connected to a peppy 2.4l and while the position of the shifter looks odd, it was very comfortable and responsive and fun to shift through the gears.
1. 350Z
2. '87 4-cyl 4runner
3. '85 300Z
4. '86 Alfa Spider
5. '06 Accord 6-speed sedan
6. '93 B2200
7. '79 CJ7 3-speed
I believe that's all the manuals.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
1. '69 Camaro Z-28
2. '62 Rambler, 3spd on the column
3. '73 Fiat 128 SL
4. '74 Datsun 260Z
5. '82 Mazda 626
6. '92 Sentra SE-R
7. '87 BMW 325
8. '09 G37S 6MT
I really don't remember the earlier vehicles. I still have, and drive, the last three. I'm just getting used to the G37s so this opinion may be a bit premature, but the clutch feels a bit heavy and I'm having trouble adjusting to the friction point.
The BMW has almost 200K miles on it, and the clutch and tranny are still fine. Though between it and the SE-R, the SE-R's clutch is lighter and has a nicer feel to it, IMO
I did say that they were all in a group by themselves. Of course, there is subjectivity to take into account as well. Like how I just don't like how the VW gearboxes feel and work personally but the ARE very nicely made.
The best, though, was my old 1967 Mercedes. It had an odd setup where the clutch was basically an armature on a spring and at each end of the system were solenoids that engaged the system. Mind of like a SMT manual feel but with the pedal still in the mix. Even though it had an odd shifter on the column,(only 4 speed plus reverse like that I know of, as well) you could shift it with one finger. A nice push *click*(solenoid engaging) *tap* release motion. Needless to say I never had to replace the clutch while I owned it as it lasted as long as a typical SMT's clutch.
As an aside - that's my #1 gripe with the Smart Car as well. They have all the setup for this system already in place and yet have removed the gear selector from the setup(paddles work like the semi-automatic clutch if it has them), which defeats the entire purpose and fun of it all. It's got all of the bad issues of a manual and all of the bad issues of an automatic all in one nasty package.
Huh, you mean the car website I sniped that Hon-Duh info. from is incorrect in their stating that the new Hon-Duh CRX under development is the first Hon-Duh hybrid with a manual tranny? I must admit in my scope of research or no research that Hon-Duh is not one of my favorites, baby.
In fact, they're way down the carmaker list for my faves. I do like that new CRX front end look. I don't like the back of it. Looks a tad too much hybrid Insight-looking.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Drove it once, remember it forever.
If we are WAY more lucky than we probably deserve to be, this may lead to there being a Civic hybrid manual on offer again (and Insight - all 3 models will share the same hybrid guts, from what I can tell).
I'm putting in a vote for my Echo for best manual ever......JUST KIDDING! :-P
Toyota USED to know how to make decent manuals (25 years ago, that is) but alas, no more. I prefer the metallic and precise feel of a Honda box to the slightly vague, notchy, and long throw of my current Impreza shifter. Can't complain about the clutch though - Subaru has made WORLDS of improvement there in the last 12 years.
Can't complain about the Echo's clutch either - commute-car light (for that occasional stop-and-go traffic we all look forward to) yet easy to tell where the engagement point is, so unlike other cars I have had with really light clutches. :-)
Edit.....my RX-7 was an '88, and I like so many others posting before me here will never forget that shifter. THAT'S what every shifter should be.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
76, 79, 85 Saab - not great. Clutch and transmission probably worst part of the car.
Subaru Outback. - long throws and clutch wore quickly.
All of the Miatas I've owned 90, 93, 99, and 08. - Best gearbox, especially the 08.
I actually enjoy my Toyota Echo. Long clunky throws.
What I hate most - my Subaru Forester with an automatic. No fun!!!
Now, if someone was stung by this particular bug badly enough I spose they could tolerate the rear end.
What would interest a person like me more with that cool front end is stretching this length back a squish and adding two doors. And slamming that rearward bent-up angle down and designing an attractive rear end to it for a 4-door sedan worthy to take on any and all car markets.
Oh, the Civic 4-door sedan already foots this bill, eh? Not for me it doesn't. Mitsu still blows Honda away in their styling department, IMHO. To pull away a New World Order Lancer-lover like myself Honda would need to take designs like this and meld some real beauty in to them, with sportiness at the forefront.
To get what's being described as a reputation of having a smooth manual shifting experience from Honda is worthy of further future interest, though, huh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Me me me! :-)
If it handles like a CRX and goes fairly fast in a straight line, while getting better than 40 mpg and employing a 3-pedal manual, it's exactly what I'm looking for. Let's face it, the old CRXs that everybody loved so much weren't THAT great-looking either, just fairly squarish little hatchbacks. But they were a ton of fun.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I recall a buddy from Boeing who drive his girlfriend's red late 80's Honda CRX around in absolute joyful glee! He said it was a ball to drive because of it's great acceleration and handling.
It does perk up my ears a bit, too. And yes, one must have a manual tranny in this pup, for sure-for sure!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The other one like this that I am aware of
[ 4 fwd speeds on the column + reverse
drove one once - same time frame = late 60s ]
is the Peugeot 404.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_404
Odd indeed...
But better than the 3 on the column Plymouth
I was driving at the time....
- Ray
Not a connoisseur any more...
The car had many good qualities, but was just too French for my tastes. The designers seemed to value doing things differently from the norm, just for the sake of being different. :sick:
The column shifter was not one of my favorite features.
The worst? For reliability the boxes on my Saab 9000 Turbos and for general driveability the five speed on my '91 Taurus SHO with throws that were way too long and a clutch that was just out of phase with the rest of the drivetrain. The Moss crash box on a lady friend's '62 E-Type 3.8 wasn't great, what a difference the new box on the Series II made!
Best Automatic, the (GM-built!) 5-speed Steptronic on my BMW 528i. Worst Auto-
the klutzy 4speeder in my MIL's Buick LeSabre, it's incapable of a smooth shift over 3000 RPM.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Subaru does, though.
Drive a Grand Vitara and then a Forester.
Any others?
Either will more than suffice, used.
As for 2004-06 GTO, many can get a realistic 20 mpg, or about 24 mpg on highway, but not 29mpg.
The 2010 camaro offers a 6-speed stickshift, 29 mpg highway, 300 HP V6: $23k.
Automatic is 16/21, btw - it's all about that 6th tall gear for highway cruising, evidently.
The Camaro is basically the same type of engine/transmission combo and it gets better MPG because they've de-tuned it to 300HP vs 350 or 400.(which is still way more then enough to be honest)
All three are awesome cars to drive, though. I mentioned the GTO and the CTS because you can find mint condition ones still around for half the price of a Camaro.
The new EPA ratings estimate the GTO mileage more realistically - you can go to fueleconomy.gov to see that.
And yes you are spot-on about the tall 6th gear for the highway mpg - the M6 gto/monaros get far better highway mpg than the A4 cars (A4s were officially "gas guzzlers").
And the GTO is fantastic to drive, no doubt. A pal of mine just bought a used 05 M6 with low miles and is driving it Boston to Denver currently.
Your comments about the Camaro V6 seem rather misinformed. You say the camaro V6 detuned from 350hp or 400hp to 300hp? That's wrong on more levels than I can count, man! We aren't talking PorscheV6 motors here. The camaro V6 hp was actually *increased* compared to previous GM V6s with same block - such as G8 v6 - this was thanks to enhancing theV6 to have Direct-Injection or some sort of more-modern fuel-injection.
cheers and happy Holden motoring to ya - and did ya know that Many of us GTO dudes remove some or all the GM markings from their GTOs and install authentic down-under Holden badging/panels/bumpers/marker-lights?
Also, I must agree with your comment about 400 hp being more than enough. I often run mine on 87 octane just to take away a few percent of the crazy power & torque. Many other GTO modify their LS2s/LS1s to get >400 hp at the rear wheels too!
I'm not sure if 350 hp is more than enough, actually, but am considering the 300 hp stickshift V6 Camaro nonetheless !
Evidently the big deal with all three as far as MPG goes is driving style, since they all three get horrible city ratings. So stomping on it off the line can easily drop the city rating to 10-12 mpg. And these cars without a doubt encourage heavy-footed driving.
Yes, I've seen the re-badged versions and they do look better. As does removing that silly rear wing piece they tacked on.
My money, though, personally, goes for the CTS because it's a bit smaller and more agile and the 3.6 is a fantastic engine that gets good MPG and performance. It's not nearly as powerful as the V8s in torque, but there is no lag or peak to it either thanks to it having VVT. It pulls like a diesel engine through all rpms and is very predictable to drive as a result. It may only have ~250HP, but it uses it as efficiently as a typical Honda or BMW engine. Go test drive one as well - there should be plenty of 2006-2007 certified models for around $20K.
(original sticker for it said 17/26/20, and it does get slightly better mpg overall than the GTO from what people report(or that I could find online quickly - heh))
Other than those three, well, there's pretty much nothing other than stuff like the Mustang, which is a fine machine until you get in a corner. Or sit in it - it's a hideous interior to be honest. Oh, and the rear seat will make you lose friends quickly. And good luck seeing out the back... :P
*edit* my only gripe with the Camaro is this as well - bad rear visibility compared to the GTO(with the rear wing piece removed, it's good) or CTS(which is merely OK). I think it's because they did too good of a job replicating the original Camaro's look and feel. You do sit very low in the car.
Not a joke. Really. I think....
I don't know about an Opel, but a typical GM is about as sedate of a drive as there gets.
Exactly what you don't want if you desire a sporty vehicle. The power to weight ratio, the lack of off-the-line torque, turbo-lag, and front wheel drive... Ick. A cheap Camaro is by far a better vehicle in that case. Or even a used CTS.
3400lbs+ and a little 2.0 turbo engine isn't going to be very good unless you flog the bolts off of it.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q1/2010_saturn_aura_2010_pontiac_g6_20- 09_opel_insignia-mini_test_road_test
**quote**
The weight shows in the car’s performance—even the 2.0-liter turbo engine is only adequately quick and not outstanding
****
Auto review translator reads: Slow as a dog but we can't actually say that we loathed it.
It's a detuned version(why?) of the engine put into the Cobalt SS. Just with 500 pounds added weight. :sick: Due to that extra weight, it gets the same MPG as the Cobalt SS, but is almost 3 seconds slower in actual 0-60 tests(not manufacturer "estimate" but stomp on it at a drag strip type test)
A Buick GNX revision this isn't...
Manual Shifters Everyone Would Drive (Edmunds Daily)
I have owned and driven a lot of different sticks, and I am pretty flexible with the shifter itself (never really had a bad one, other than the deisel International ryder truck. That was like a broom handle in a buck of rocks and oatmeal, with a completely fried clutch).
The ones I disliked, however, were due to the clutch. The 1992 Subaru Legacy (FWD) wagon? Shited OK, but the clutch was way too stiff. 1 hour in traffic, and my left leg quivered. The 1991 626? All day stop and go, no problem. My current accord is like that too.
I do like some of the RWD (and better FWD) linkages though. My Miata really was like a rifle bolt or toggle switch almost, but the clutch was kinda stiff, but not an issue since I never sat in traffic with it.
A couple of the Volvos I tried over the years (S60) had pretty lousy clutches too. More like an on/off switch without much feel.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2011 Cadillac CTS Coupe Will Come Standard With Six-Speed Manual (Straightline)
At least both are available with a stick, with BOTH engines in the Accord's case. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
OK, now I'm craving popcorn. Gotta go!