The Future Of The Manual Transmission

dave594

I have an 08 xB and the 5 MT is a joy to drive. Previous car was an 01 Corolla S with the 5 MT. The xB has the 2.4L 4 cyl and the 5 MT has a much more positive feel to it than the Corolla's. All the Scions (really Toyota) offer 5 MT as standard. It wasn't hard to find one at the dealers because many Scion buyers actually want to have manual transmissions.

kyfdx

You get used to the rev hang? I've had my '08 Impreza for 16.5 months, and I'm still not used to it.. It's impossible to drive smoothly and quickly at the same time..

My lease is up in 7.5 months (can you tell that I can't wait?), and if all manuals are like this, then I'll be done with them... I went back to a stick for enjoyment... Not getting it here..

I've test driven a few other new cars, but haven't noticed it... even though, now, I'm looking for it... It's hard to pick up on a test drive, though, when you are acclimating yourself to a different clutch/shifter combo..

snakeweasel

Compare that to every automatic transmission vehicle my folks owned requiring a new transmission at some point in the first 100k miles (except the '76 Nova, TH350 with that 250 ci straight 6 got along fine).

If I can interject something here. I drive automatics (simple because traffic strongly dictates it) and have taken many cars way above 150K miles and never had a transmission issue with an automatic. Most of the people I know have autos and few, if any, have had any issues. I had a 91 Chevy Corsica that I took to about 150K and the guy I sold it to put on another 150K before the tranny went out (and only because he threw it into reverse doing 50 MPH).

lilengineerboy

Then again, I guess this thread is exactly where people who sought one out would hang out in.

paisan owns a 2005 Legacy GT wagon manual, also a rare bird. That was the ONLY year for a turbo wagon with a MT.

Yeah I wish we had ponied up for that instead of the 2.5i wagon 5-speed we have now, although I love that car just the same. I picked up some WRX wheels with snows that are on it now...of course now we aren't getting any snow this year...

lilengineerboy

You get used to the rev hang? I've had my '08 Impreza for 16.5 months, and I'm still not used to it.. It's impossible to drive smoothly and quickly at the same time..

My lease is up in 7.5 months (can you tell that I can't wait?), and if all manuals are like this, then I'll be done with them... I went back to a stick for enjoyment... Not getting it here

If the rev hang bugs you, stay away from the Mini. My '05 Legacy doesn't seem to hang as much on revs, and the '07 Accord seems pretty smooth still too. My favorite thing about the Legacy is how the pedals are set up to heel/toe and how well it responds to it. Its way more fun than a wagon should probably be.

benjaminh

I don't think my Honda manuals have this issue. What is it, exactly?

I don't think my revs hang back or forward--they do what my right foot tells them to do. And since my foot is off of the right pedal when I shift revs go down, and don't seem to hang....? I guess I just don't understand.

It's nice that Subaru has manuals, but I don't need 4wd. I don't go off road, and so I want the mpg instead. Also, my parents and my sister both own Subarus, and they are fine, but imho they are not as smooth, polished, and nice as Accords. They have their own virtues, however. Like the weather radio, for instance! And the design with the Sub is clean and functional.

jawsman004

Does anyone know if the Jeep Grand Cherokee 4x4 comes in a standard transmission? Also if leather seats are available on the low end models?
Any comparables between the Jeep with GM models?

mcdawgg

Only on the new cars, new meaning new design. I see it all over some of the Honda forums (I think Civic, but I am not sure) and many other makes. Basically, when you accelerate hard, you take your foot off the gas to shift, but the rpms do not drop for a few seconds. It is programmed that way because quickly closing the throttle (lowering the rpms) leaves unburnt fuel, so more pollution.

stickguy

Oh, I hate that. But, my '05 Accord is fine (noe at all, at least that I have ever noticed).

Now, the '05 tC I had did suffer from this, enough to be annoying.

The worst though was my '95 Mystique V6/5 speed. I think I took that one to the dealer to have them look at it (I bought it used though). First car of many manuals that did this, and by far the worse.

I still remember checking out forums back in the day ('bought it in '98) about "moosing" it (some plug in an air line, never did do it).

But if I was buying another manual now, it would be a deal breaker.

lilengineerboy

The worst though was my '95 Mystique V6/5 speed. I think I took that one to the dealer to have them look at it (I bought it used though). First car of many manuals that did this, and by far the worse.

I still remember checking out forums back in the day ('bought it in '98) about "moosing" it (some plug in an air line, never did do it).

Moosing it was related to something other than the throttle hang, IIRC. It would literally make a noise like a moose call because air would leak past a throttle plate or something. I didn't have the issue on my '96, but the SVT guys complained about it a lot.

I still miss that car. I should've dumped the '93 Accord and kept the '96 Contour when we got the Subaru in '05.

xwesx

I have the same experience. Perhaps the unreliability of them was more in older models ('80s and earlier?) than more recent, or by those who are simply hard on them. I took a '96 Outback easily to 220K (at least as far as the transmission was concerned) and have a '98 Caravan at 215K with no problems (with the drivetrain).

That said, I still much prefer manuals. Sadly, I actually own six vehicles right now and half have each transmission type.

snakeweasel

As far as manual vs automatic if I lived in the country I most likely would be driving a manual. But living in the Chicago metro area with its traffic I rather not be continuously rowing through the gears going to and from work.

xwesx

Yeah, I can certainly see the rationale in that! Here in Fairbanks, I see very little of that stop-and-go tediousness.

Besides, you can have some serious fun in your car regardless of the transmission type (referring to the CTS-V).

snakeweasel

Ah the CTS, it was the first Cadillac in 50 years to come with a manual transmission (automatic is an option) and the first few years of the CTS-V was Manual only. The V was a fun car to drive, but as stated it was a manual.

xwesx

I thought I recalled you saying in the past that it was a manual, but I did not realize you no longer had it. Your statement, "if I lived in the country I most likely would be driving a manual," made me think that your vehicles are automatics.

snakeweasel

Yeah the cars I have today are autos, the V was just a car for special occasions like going to the show or dinner (a date car) and the others were for day to day driving. Because of that we drove it rarely. Then my niece trashed her car and my sister gave her hers and we got a nice daily drive (the Sebring) so my sister uses the V now. Which seems better now because we were only putting a few thousand miles a year on the thing and she drives it a lot more.

Technically it's still mine but my sister is using it.

garrison16

The Cimaron? Late 80's

stickguy

latest autoweek has a preview on the upcoming Buick Regal (sounds really sweet, too, once the turbo arrives). Big news though is that it will come with a 6 speed stick shortly after introduction.

I predict they sell 2, maybe 3.

but, who was expecting a 4 cyl. Buick in the first place, so who knows?

nippononly

is just a dark little fact of life in the year 2009. They prevent the throttle from closing right away to reduce NOx emissions. Every new car I have bought since the early '00s has had it - with throttle-by-wire they get to control when your throttle closes, not you. :-(

The one in the Matrix was the worst, because it combined with a lousy e-throttle that had a lag before revving the engine. Made it almost impossible to use the stick. Had to go, and in April it did.

The Subaru's is very manageable because it only hangs for a second or so, so you can jump off the gas a second before you clutch and it comes out just right. ;-)

The Cobalt's rev hang makes it completely impossible to drive with a stick. Word is that the Civic SI's is bad, but Honda did do an ECU update after the first full year to lessen it.

shipo

Every new car I have bought since the early '00s has had it - with throttle-by-wire they get to control when your throttle closes, not you.

Hmmm, interesting. FWIW, my 2009 Mazda3 5-Speed does not have any rev-hang issues.

Best regards,
Shipo

lilengineerboy

The Cobalt's rev hang makes it completely impossible to drive with a stick. Word is that the Civic SI's is bad, but Honda did do an ECU update after the first full year to lessen it.

My friend has a first year coupe and it is pretty annoying on that car, come to think of it...I was looking at the sedan and it didn't seem to do it as much. The sedan launched a year or two after the coupe, so that makes sense.

mcdawgg

Every new car I have bought since the early '00s has had it - with throttle-by-wire they get to control when your throttle closes, not you

My experience is that only the newer models that have been redesigned recently have rev hang. I have one with the throttle by wire from '07 - no rev hang at all. The 2010 - also throttle by wire, but has some rev hang. I think that's why some people are saying they don't have it?

My 2010 rev hang isn't too bad, but it would be nice if it didn't have any at all like the 2007.

benjaminh

Shipo: I really like the looks of the Mazda3. What's your experience with the car so far?

greenice

I really depends on the implementation.

When I lived in Europe in the mid-90's I had a Nissan Primera (a.k.a. Infinity G20)
which had a very bad case of rev hanging.

On the other hand, it is not very noticeable (if there is any) in both my
2006 Accord 6MT or my wife's 2010 Mazda 3s.

So, it can be done properly ...

british_rover

I have seen one Grand Cherokee with a manual transmission in my entire life and it was a 1993 so the very first year. I knew the owner of that car because I serviced his car for a good six or seven years. He special ordered it and it was a PITA to get it. I doubt they made more then a couple of hundred and I know in later years you couldn't even special order them.

shipo

Overall my impressions are that you'd be hard pressed to find an "economy" car that offers a better blend of performance, handling, economy and utility for the price.

Likes:
- The engine: even though it is a FoMoCo 2.0 liter mill, it delivers pretty good power, good fuel economy (I've recorded upwards of 40 MPG on 400+ mile trips)
- The suspension: while these cars have been described as "A poor man's BMW", I wouldn't go quite that far, and as I'm a former BMW owner who is now "poor" I feel pretty qualified to make that statement. That said, compared to the Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Subaru, Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler offerings in this class, nothing can touch this car on a tight road course.
- The transmission: granted it doesn't shift as smoothly as a Miata or an old RX-7, however, it is easily on par with the very best of the other economy cars
- Cargo loading: I'm able to get three adults and three snowboards (using the trunk pass-through) into the car at the same time. Not too shabby.
- Brakes: This thing has disc brakes all around, something that is only available on the higher end models of the competition and/or not available at any price.

Dislikes:
- The dashboard lighting (hard to see day or night): I have the "Mazda3 i Touring" model, apparently the "S" models do a MUCH better job at this.
- The HVAC system: The car insists on engaging the A/C compressor even when I have the vent setting on "Floor" and the temperature setting setting on the hotter side of the dial. Really annoying.
- The horn: This is a minor gripe I know, but geez, the horn in the Mazda3 has been described as an "Epic Fail", and I whole-heartedly agree.
- The exterior mirrors: Mazda (and Honda and Toyota) all seem to think that if you live south of Canada then you don't need heated exterior mirrors. Yeesh! I live in New Hampshire and had to buy a set of Canadian mirrors and wiring harnesses and retrofit my car so that the mirrors would heat up when I had the rear-window defogger engaged. Dumb, really dumb.
- Tires: The factory rubber was a set of Goodyear Eagle RS-As, and given the almost universal condemnation of these skins I had them replaced when there was only 714 miles showing on the odometer. The Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires are a huge-HUGE improvement and with 22,000 miles on them (and not even half gone yet), they have already lasted longer than most folks get from the RS-As. Fortunately it seems that Mazda has seen the error of their ways and no longer supply that tire from the factory.

All in all, I think the car was a smokin' deal given that I only paid a bit shy of $16,000 for it.

Best regards,
Shipo

benjaminh

A Buick Regan with a manual???!!! That is way strange. Might have to go the Buick dealer to test drive one of those. Oh yeah, they won't have any in stock probably. As you say, they'll sell very few of these.

There have been some other makes who try to reestablish their credibility by providing a manual. I think for the first couple of years the Lincoln LS, back in 2001 and 02, maybe, had a manual available.

Cadillac has been more serious about it though, and it seems still offers a manual on a few CTS models. Probably sell very few of them, and iirc, they aren't always given high marks by the press.

What's weird if Buick offering a manual while Honda is starting to phase it out on the Accord. Strange.

benjaminh

shipo: Thanks for the great report on the Mazda3. You got an excellent deal. Seems like a fine car for the price--poor man's bmw indeed....

benjaminh

Now that I've heard it described, I do think our 08 Accord with drive by wire does this a little. Not a lot, but somewhat...

srs_49

My experience is that only the newer models that have been redesigned recently have rev hang. I have one with the throttle by wire from '07 - no rev hang at all. The 2010 - also throttle by wire, but has some rev hang. I think that's why some people are saying they don't have it

If memory serves me right, I remember rev-hang in some of cars from the 70's and 80's I owned that had carburetors instead of EFI. I'm think maybe my 74 Datsun 260-Z or may the '82 Mazda 626? All drive-by-throttle cable back then. I think there was some sort of piston or diaphram that would keep the throttle plate in the card from snapping closed when you let up on the gas.

rayainsw

"There have been some other makes who try to reestablish their credibility by providing a manual. I think for the first couple of years the Lincoln LS, back in 2001 and 02, maybe, had a manual available."

The Y2K [ available late 1999 ] Lincoln LS was available
with a manual trans.
Issues:
Nearly all Lincoln dealers refused to order one for stock -
so a test drive was problematic.
It was only available on the V6 - not on the V8...
- Ray
Y2K Lincoln LS V8 manumatic driver - for a while...

andys120

My '85 Prelude (twin-carburetted) had a rev-hang issue but you learned to drive around it pretty quickly. The "lude had the best FWD shift I've ever encountered.

lilengineerboy

"There have been some other makes who try to reestablish their credibility by providing a manual. I think for the first couple of years the Lincoln LS, back in 2001 and 02, maybe, had a manual available."

I know a bunch of people that have those...V6/manual. One acquaintance has his/hers V6/manual LSs.

andys120

I found myself driving past a VW dealer and pulled in to see if they had a Jetta Sportwagen with the DSG. Surprisingly they did and let me take it out for 20 minutes.

I have to tell you I was very impressed, this is one well sorted little car and the best thing about it is the powertrain. When I drove a 3.2 Audi TT with a DSG I liked it a lot and didn't drive it much in fully automatic mode. This car was the opposite in that there isn't much point in manually shifting it because the redline is relatively low (5K RPMs) and the torque curve is as flat as the Kansas prairie (awesome for a 2 liter four!)

The real benefit of the DSG in this setup is that by eliminating the torque converter they greatly enhanced the compression braking so that backing off the throttle even slightly hauls the car down as if you've hit the brake. I drove the car in early rush our traffic and found that it was just superb at punching holes in traffic.

All that and better than 40 mpg...me want!

nippononly

Was not surprised to see the manual still very much the preference for a number of tested models:

On BMW's latest whizbang substitute for the manual

I also find the seven-speed DCT lacking. Slow-speed, second-gear crawls seem to confuse it, especially if you need to accelerate from said crawl (as in a merging situation) - can't do it smoothly. You either get neck-snapping acceleration or barely any speed

On Mitsubishi's latest whizbang substitute for the manual

the (TC-SST) transmission gets confused at stop signs, wanting to roll away in second then downshifting when it realizes the revs are too low
at parking lot and LA traffic speeds, it's jerky and irritating, though you get used to it after a while
(just what I want to have to do in my new $40K automobile)
It feels like the guy inside the computer doing the shifting is either new at it and doesn't know how to work the clutch smoothly yet, or he's in a hurry and doesn't care

On comparing the (manual-only) STi to the Evo

....my verdict is in: I'll take the STi. The Evo's gearbox....is annoyingly clunky around town and lacks the involvement of the STi's proper manual box

In short, unless every trip you make is to the racetrack, these new automated manuals suck. That includes reports I have read on Porsche's latest, PDK. Interestingly, the first Evo gearbox review above also calls TC-SST "(not) quite as refined as the VW's DSG, but it's pretty close". Yikes. Echoes what I have experienced of DSG, but that was a couple of years back, maybe they have improved it now. Either way, that writer wasn't too impressed, and presumably he has driven a DSG more recently than I have.

So after all that I found the note of Arthur St. Antoine's editorial up front a bit discouraging, given that it is coming from someone whose PROFESSION is driving cars. Its title, "Graveyard Shift", is perhaps a perfect way to sum up the tone, and he ends it by saying "....will I miss the rewards hiding behind pedal number three? Yes and no.....As for my unused left foot, maybe it's time to teach it a new skill: braking"

Sheesh, this even after he has said there are rewards to driving a manual. I also notice in the same issue that the new Sonata Hyundai is releasing in six months will still be offered with a 6-speed manual as the standard transmission, which I view as good news given that it is a midsize sedan, the next place I'm sure manuals will die in America. And of course Buick is within a few months of releasing a car that will carry its first standard manual transmission since the '89 Skyhawk, apparently.

So I'm not so convinced manuals in new cars will be dying out as quickly as Mr. St. Antoine thinks. Of course, they just have to last another 30 years or so and then maybe I will be too old to care any more. :-P

cdnpinhead

allows one to change gears when you want, how you want, and to change your mind in the middle, if the situation warrants. Skip gears, no problem; keep it in neutral for 30 seconds, no problem; shift quick like a bunny, no problem.

Plus which, they're cheaper to fix when they break, and they almost never break.

The alphabet-soup transmissions need to do all those things before I'll be interested. So far, I'm still waiting.

tallman1

So many people are wondering why drivers who are experiencing Toyota's "acceleration" problems don't just put the car in neutral. One never knows how one might react in a panic situation like that, however, it just seems so basic.

I wonder if it has something to do with many drivers not really thinking about neutral with their automatic transmissions. I would guess that it is rarely used in an automatic and it may not be second nature. A manual driver uses neutral all the time so I would think that reaction would be automatic.

ateixeira

I drive stick (Miata 6 spd) and auto (Sienna).

For me it does seem natural, so good point.

In fairness, if you reach over and tap the shifter on the Sienna, it moves towards neutral, and it's away from the driver. So just reach and bump it and you have N.

Also, it is labeled on the shifter itself and right in front of you in the dash.

You're correct about panic, though, they may not be thinking straight.

xwesx

You have to consider that most people who drive only do so because it is the most convenient way to get them from one place to another. They don't really know how to drive nor do they enjoy it - they know as much as they feel they need to know and expect nothing to go wrong. When it does, they react with annoyance, panic, etc.

ateixeira

True, wes, but that says more about driver's education in this country than it does about Toyota.

In Brazil I could not have gotten a license if I didn't know how to drive stick, for instance.

Here, if you can parallel park and sign your name, you're good. :sick:

stever

There's another theory floating around that shifting into neutral on those automatics doesn't work:

wwest, "Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall" #96, 28 Jan 2010 5:29 pm

ateixeira

Well, the same guy also said the 2011 Sienna would not come with a 4 cylinder.

kernick

Electronics are great when they work. Nothing can beat the speed and efficiency of a machine. And in our wonder of: golly-ain't-that-great that that car can park itself, or has radar to avoid accidents, the consumer now has devices that if they have design or operational flaws, the consumer can only scratch his head. And apparently many technicians and engineers can't work their way thru the complexity (including Toyota).

So there is something to be said for a system that has mechanical-human actuated parts. Toyota may be helping us realize that complicated automated systems can also cripple an operation. I think our electrical grid had some similar problems the other year.

shipo

...is why the drivers don't just use the brakes when the engine sticks at WOT. There isn't a car sold in the U.S. that doesn't have MUCH stronger brakes than an engine. Back when Audi was grappling with the same Unintended Acceleration issue, one car magazine (Car & Driver if I recall correctly) ran a braking test on an Audi 5000 (with an automatic, the cars with a manual transmission never were never thought to have the "problem"), and they found that the minimum stopping distances with the engine at idle versus with the engine at WOT were only ten to fifteen percent longer.

ateixeira

I agree, for the most part, but people are saying some don't press the pedal hard enough, there may not be full brake boost, the brakes can overheat if you're already at very high speeds, etc.

Nuetral is easier, though I'm sure I'd be doing both.

nippononly

I think there was also the theory floated that people were pumping the brakes when they seemed ineffective, thereby losing the vacuum in the brake booster (because the throttle is WO) and then having much less braking power.

If all cars had manual transmissions (my dream world! :-P) none of this would be a problem...just shift to manual and coast to the side, put it back in gear and feather the clutch if you need extra thrust to make it off the road.

british_rover

My wife didn't have to parallel park in order to pass her drivers test and she still doesn't know how.

lilengineerboy

My wife didn't have to parallel park in order to pass her drivers test and she still doesn't know how.

I would recommend the Escape/ Escape Hybrid and the automatic parallel parking feature.

ateixeira

I recommend valet parking!

explorerx4

if you go out to eat every week, the factory self park is probably cheaper. :P