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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Looks good, too...
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    I agree - very good job with the subtle lines. Much to my pleasure, I suspect the sub-compact / compact market will be absolutely wide open in a few more years when I replace my current driver (unless the car falls apart before then!). I will probably be able to pick up one of today's new releases for a considerable savings on the used market at that point, too. :shades:

    The best part about the class, aside from the fuel economy, is that a manual transmission is generally available throughout the model's trims rather than being relegated only to the bare bones.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, only in the sub- and compact segments, unfortunately.
  • angel53angel53 Member Posts: 10
    I prefer to use a manual rather than automatic car because it is not too hard in her treatment and to vehicle speed manual transmission is much faster than the automatic. :)

    image
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yeah, only in the sub- and compact segments, unfortunately.

    Well, if we can hang onto both classes for widespread manual selection, I will be perfectly happy.

    Alas, I think we are going to lose the compacts before too much longer....if only I could get an ironclad promise from Honda and Mazda (and perhaps Ford) to keep the manuals rolling out of the factories, I could maybe forego the rest of the automakers......

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Those two oems will ALWAYS be market driven. You might want to research or even ask to get data from a regional type from either or both of those oems : manual transmission procedures, percentages, ordering, etc.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    "The Miata engine NEEDS 3000RPM to systain a 60MPH roadspeed."

    Why? My Integra has about the same power and weight and would be fine cruising at 2,000 rpm at 60. I had a 74 hp VW Quantum (1982) that was geared for 2100 rpm at 60. It had no problems. I had to down shift to 4th very rarely on very steep hills
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think Mazda wanted high revs so you can pass easily just with a squeeze of the throttle.

    I don't mind shifting out of 6th, though. 6th should be a tall cruising gear.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited March 2011
    I would say oem "optimization". For example, gearing, middle of torque curve, balance of mpg, etc. Without the data, extensive experience driving, etc., them my swag is a tad less educated that not.

    So for example, on a TDI diesel (5 speed) 3,000 rpm in 5th gear/6th gear, you'd be looking @ 95 + mph. MPG would diminish to something like 48 mpg and probably less.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited March 2011
    a great, great review on the new Mazda 2 5-speed stick tonight. It sounds like it is a great little car that is really fun to drive. The shifter and clutch and manual tranny as a whole are the best in this segment. Like nippononly said one can and must gun the accelerator to get maximum driving fun at key acceleration points during your drive and the little Maz 2 just laps it up and asks for more.

    For a titch over $16,000 for the stick shift model (for that green apple color we see plastered all over da net, too?) this car may just bop the new Ford Fiesta and Focus off of my futures list in a few years.

    image

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I would urge you to wait until Mazda stuffs their sky active tech in those cars. Right now the powertrain tech is very old school.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    all the reviewers are saying the 2011 Mazda 2's shifter bests all the rest. No matter who or what the subcompact. Right?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Reviewers? No, I don't think so, I believe they rate the Fit's higher. It's really a noticeable difference if you drive them back to back.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited March 2011
    and it is really a very sizeable but...the Fit is a Hon-Duh. That is not an automobile in my book. They just don't measure up to one of these. In any way. WINNING. DUH!

    image
    Now this is a real car...WINNING!!

    There's more design integrity in just this one Peter Schreyer penning than Honda's entire automotive portfolio put together.

    Period. Just the truth, man. And men. And even women, if we could get some of them interested in cars, that is. ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    edited March 2011
    Quoting Charlie Sheen does not enhance your credibility. ;)

    My take on the "design integrity" of the vehicle pictured above is that from the side it is fair-to-good, but the front is a mess. :sick:

    Just my opinion. :)
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Honda doesn't make automobiles? What DO they make?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    Duh, lawnmowers!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    edited March 2011
    Indeed, the front end of that thing is a mess. Too busy, and those lights. Wheels look like they are from an old S4, too, Kia hires an old Audi guy and thinks its German now. Side and back aren't so bad.

    But really, how it drives is the key. Current Rio is a penalty box compared to almost every (non-Korean) car, how will this new Rio fare?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited March 2011
    DUH...I know Hon-Duh makes automobiles, they're just dull, wrong in aesthetics or uninspiring in oh so many ways. They're one of the automakers that the so-called credible writers always drum in to our heads as likable and wannable.

    But they're just not. Never will be. Ever.

    Never.

    imageOTOH-Winning...DUH

    Did you like the 70's automobile designs over the glorious 60's too, guys? Yuk-who on here just cut some serious cheese? The boxy 70's designs?

    Hon-Duh and Thai-o-ta designers are drunk on boring 70's designs. You'll never, ever see Peter Schreyer of Kia asleep at the wheel like they are.

    Never. Ever. Notta. Outta business! Fire-sale!

    70% off! Going out of business! You'll never see prices like these again!

    And yes, my wish is for both the Spurs and the Lakers to lose in the first round, too. Rock on!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited March 2011
    and it's aesthetically pleasing front grilles and 5-speed manual SE sedan and hatch models for 2012 the future is so bright it most definitely needs Burton Cummings of The Guess Who's shades. Most definitely.

    image
    2012 Ford Focus fronts in action...non-offronting, too, might and may I add for free

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    If their cars were as good as their lawnmowers, I'd buy nothing else...

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I haven't seen any Korean lawnmowers yet but the guys who make their living cutting laws use nothing but Honda mowers.

    I wonder why?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2011
    Kia hires an old Audi guy and thinks its German now

    Schreyer *is* German, FWIW.

    So they are now German designs, in a way.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    If one reaches far enough :shades:

    I guess there's nobody from the homeland coming up with any leading designs...we've all seen the Equus.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think they're better at designed flat screens (Samsung) than cars, at least up to now.

    Not a bad idea to hire in good talent.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Is the new Civic only going to offer a manual shift for the SI?? From the press release:

    Civic HF, Sedan, Coupe and Natural Gas Specifications

    * 140 horsepower, 1.8-liter i-VTEC™ 4-cylinder engine
    * 5-speed automatic transmission
    * ECO Assist technology
    * EPA-estimated Civic HF highway fuel economy: 41 mpg
    * EPA-estimated Civic Sedan and Civic Coupe highway fuel economy: 39 mpg

    Civic Hybrid Specifications

    * 110 horsepower, 1.5-liter i-VTEC™ 4-cylinder engine (combined gasoline + electric)
    * Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT)
    * Lithium-ion battery
    * ECO Assist technology
    * EPA-estimated Civic Hybrid city/highway combined fuel economy: 45 mpg

    Civic Si Specifications

    * 200 horsepower and 170 lb-ft, 2.4-liter i-VTEC™ 4-cylinder engine
    * 6-speed manual transmission
    * EPA-estimated Civic Si highway fuel economy: 31 mpg


    All the regular Civics are listed with a standard 5-speed auto! Oh perish the thought - surely they will continue to offer a stick in other Civic trims besides the SI?

    If not, this is a dark day indeed for the future of the manual transmission.... :-(

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    Are you talking about 2012? If so, dark day indeed. :(

    Still manuals in the 2011's... except for leather.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You'll note that highway mileage is directly related to displacement in most cases. It's not rocket science, really. But then again, while we CAN get 100mpg out of a car, nobody wants to drive a 40hp 600cc car these days to do it.

    Manuals might be a dying breed in the U.S., but they won't ever go away due to their massive demand in the rest of the world, mostly because they are so much cheaper to buy and repair.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Manuals might be a dying breed in the U.S., but they won't ever go away due to their massive demand in the rest of the world, mostly because they are so much cheaper to buy and repair.

    But they probably won't be offerd in the US due to the cost of certifying the drivetrain. The sales do not justify the expense on basic models.

    As for cheaper to buy and repair, I wouldn't be suprised that today's automatics acutally cost less to to manuafacuture due to the volumes.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited April 2011
    automatics are the new world order today. Actually in reality though I like sticks I doubt I'll ever buy or own another stick.

    Unless it's a 2013 Mazda 2 in that candy apple green color for only $16,400 outfitted to the hilt. :shades:

    image
    2010 Mazda 2 in that green

    BTW-are the Red Sox gonna stamp out those pesky Yankees this mlb year?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed. They are the small economic cars (actually every) "TROJAN Horse". They cost more to fix than a 5/6 speed manual transmission when they do go down. More importantly this breakdown is seen as a strategic point to get a new car (way before its time if the A/T did not break down) For whatever reasons the OEM normally does not get blamed for the break down.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    this Mazda2 would be my choice if I want to ever row my own again.

    image

    Hands down. 6-speed tranny that notches like a champ.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    BTW-are the Red Sox gonna stamp out those pesky Yankees this mlb year?

    I hope so.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Indeed. They are the small economic cars (actually every) "TROJAN Horse". They cost more to fix than a 5/6 speed manual transmission when they do go down. More importantly this breakdown is seen as a strategic point to get a new car (way before its time if the A/T did not break down) For whatever reasons the OEM normally does not get blamed for the break down.

    But in reality how often to transmissions break down? I could see having to replace clutches and flywheels long before most autos require replacement.

    Don't get me wrong - I love driving stick and will do so for as long as I can.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2011
    Acutally a good question, as I can see the other side first: having to replace automatics before flywheels and clutches. So for example on two cars that I have, 04 Civic A/T. Word on the street is IF it does fail, most likely it will be @ 250,000 miles. Natually I hope it is at least double that (500k miles +). On a 03 TDI Jetta 400,000 miles min on a 5 speed manual. Cost $2,500. vs $600.

    However one should put a bit of this in context. The oem can charge a normal + 1,000 and beyond premium and upfront for an A/T. The AVERAGE age of the passenger vehicle fleet is 9.5 years. The average US driver does 12,000 to a high of 15,000 miles per year. So we are talking about 143,000 miles when someone (with an 04 Civic for example) will probably look to replace his "old" car. So in that example, we are talking app 107,000 miles.

    Now I have been witness to easily 1/2 a dozen R/R clutch jobs (03 TDI as that is an obvious interest and concern) Almost all were "due" to power upgrades. A very common in TDI circles "V6 Sachs clutch " upgrade. So I have seen most with 200 to 230k miles that could have just as easily run another 200 to 250,000 miles (total of 400 to 500,000 miles) EASILY. But even if you wanted to put the old components back in, you are still paying for labor, so you might as well just suck it up and put the new parts in instead of the old.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Are you talking about 2012? If so, dark day indeed.

    Still manuals in the 2011's... except for leather.


    Yes, I was talking about the 2012. I sure hope I am wrong. But it is truly a dark day if HONDA, of all companies, drops manuals from all but the sport trim of its compact car. Guess my Honda days are numbered. Mazda and Subaru continue to make manuals widely available, so I guess that is where I will shop....

    As for manual shift 2011 Civics, they exist in theory, but were they being built this year? It has been 10-12 months since stick shift Civics were easy to find on dealer lots. My dealer has had ONE, the very cheap DX/VP trim that no-one buys, for a while now, but I have looked a number of times for stick shift LX's and EX's in the last year and found none.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    In my personal experience, I have had a dozen stick shift cars and never had to replace a clutch (they all went well over 100,000 miles and some over 200,000). I have owned 2 automatic transmission cars and got rid of both when the tranny failed. One at 125k the other (a Honda) at 140k.

    The stick will be around a lot longer.

    10 years ago people were saying the stick was dead. and it isn't yet. What hurts it the most is when they only offer it on low end models so people who don't want a basic car cave and turn to the dark side. If they take the trouble to certify it they should offer it on all models.
  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    edited April 2011
    What hurts it the most is when they only offer it on low end models so people who don't want a basic car cave and turn to the dark side. If they take the trouble to certify it they should offer it on all models.

    Darn straight.

    I wonder who the yuppie is in charge of Honda this last half decade?

    Sam
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    They all live in LOZ Anne gell lez. Even most of the Porsches down there are automatic !!!
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    What hurts it the most is when they only offer it on low end models

    You know I agree with you here, Dud. It is frustrating to me that I can't replace my current Accord (EX-L w/Navi) because Honda doesn't offer a stick with leather any longer.

    The kids will be gone when I'm ready for a new one so maybe the coupe will still have a manual like it does today.

    The sadness compounds when you know that Honda makes such smooth-shifting manuals. :sick:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes I think if I wanted an Accord I would really reconsider leather. To me that is more than worth the trade off.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    What hurts it the most is when they only offer it on low end models, True, it does. But there are some exceptions. The Lexus IS300 was a notable exception a couple of years ago, and the easiest way to make a Mercedes last 10-15 years without major expenses is to get stick. BMW as well, since most of what costs a fortune to fix on them is the transmission, traction control (which are optional on the manual models), and AWD systems. Stripped of all of that, the 3 series is actually fairly decent to keep for a decade or two. If you take it further and get no sunroof, NAV, stupid electronics, power windows or seats(etc), it's suddenly downright affordable. And a darn sight better than a pimped-out Civic, even in "stripped-down" trim.

    A $6000 bill for an automatic repair for an E Class or similar is usually the wake-up call that something's dreadfully wrong. That's 5 clutch jobs (though it's more reasonably $1200 for one as you'll put a racing clutch in that'll last 200K or more once the OEM one dies - if it does, that is)

    Lastly, while dealers night have a hard time reselling manuals, they fly out of your driveway when you put them up for sale. Nobody wants a classic 1960s or 1970s Mercedes with automatic, but if you have one with manual, people ask you to buy it just coming out of the grocery store. (had this happen over a dozen times with mine I owned)

    Manual won't be going anywhere, though it will be harder and harder to find. Note - the upcoming Buick Verano/Cadillac ATS will have a manual option, as does the base Cruze. Add a turbocharger or similar and I'll be seriously interested.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited April 2011
    ...used cars with manuals don't sell, errr, except my local BMW dealer.

    When the lease was up on my 2002 530i 5-Speed (with Sport Package, Premium Package, high end audio and Xenon headlights) my lease agreement said that I was supposed to return the car to the dealership I leased it from; unfortunately I'd since moved four states away from said dealership.

    I called the local dealership up here in New Hampshire and told them I had a 530i coming off lease; the manager responsible for accepting off-lease cars was very non-plussed at being asked to take in yet another 530i. In fact, he was so non-plussed he told me he didn't want my car at all. "I suggest you take it back to New Jersey," he said after I pressed him a bit, "Do you have any idea how many 530is I have on the lot and how many more are coming off lease in just the next week?"

    I protested a bit more claiming my inability to free my schedule up enough to get the car back to the original dealership, and the manager finally said in a somewhat defeated voice, "Well, make an appointment to bring it in and we'll take a look at it."

    The appointed day came and I drove up in the lot, and not a second after this same manager cast a single glance at my car he said, "Oh yeah, we're keeping that one."

    "What changed?" I asked, "Last week you wanted nothing to do with my car."

    "Yeah," he laughed, "but last week I didn't know it was a stick. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a 530i with a stick that isn't bare bones?"

    In the end my car showed up on the BMW CPE search facility two days after I turned it in, and at a price that was $2,000 higher than an otherwise identical 530i automatic; it sold in less than two weeks. Yeah, used cars with sticks don't sell well at all. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    Those MB transmission issues are from a stupid 90s idea to lower servicing costs by offering a sealed "lifetime" transmission that required no fluid changes. You can imagine how that worked out. If the fluid is changed like a normal car, there are no special problems. But as it has been 25 years or so since any MB larger than a C/190 has been sold here with a manual, it's tough to compare that brand anyway.

    Personally, I prefer my fintail with the automatic. 4 on the tree - no fun. But something like a 240D, you NEED a manual just to move it along.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I have also had the same issue since I have owned a VW Jetta TDI 5 speed manual. I have been offered more used than I paid new and the resale value is STILL very very good.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    After 30 years & 20+ cars and never replacing a clutch, this year it's two so far.
    i'm having my GTO's non-worn clutch replaced now at 90k miles and 6 years due to a variety of worrisome symptoms. the clutch was supposed to be a "mere" $2k job. pilot bearings like to disintegrate, apparently causing a chain reaction of other damage adding to about $4k. So far.
    I always knew the car didn't like city/stop&go traffic!
    Also my son's mitsu lancer pushing 200k needed a clutch for $1400 this year.
    And my VW TDI has 120k and hopefully doesn't need a clutch but has a noisy/grindy shift to 3rd when cold. I'm on my way to a clutch replacement 3-fer.

    So for me, now would be a good time to stop thinking manual transmissions are cheaper to repair or that used cars are less expensive to maintain.
    I've discovered that manual transmissions seem less expensive mostly for people who trade their cars before replacing the clutch/etc !
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    With the kind of miles you're talking about, you'd be very lucky indeed if you weren't hit with significantly more expense were it that you were driving automatic transmission cars.

    FWIW, my wife and I have accumulated about 1.7 million miles of driving between the two of us; 1.4 million in manual transmission equipped cars, and the remaining 330,000 in cars which were the correct vehicle for our needs (at the time) but not available with a stick. The transmission expense tally? One automatic transmission to the tune of three-thousand dollars, and (with the exception of my 1970 Challenger which used to eat clutches when I was racing it) zero clutch jobs.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2011
    I am a firm believer in shopping back wards, and identifying the repair facility/s before hand. Since most new cars have been engineered ( for a while) to go 100,000 miles, I like to find out the requirements for those scheduled maintenances and DIY if possible.

    100,000 miles cycles really makes things more manageable. One can then ask the questions: how many cycles can I reasonable EXPECT and what are the things most likely to fail. What normally fails after that 100,000 miles is what I focus on.

    So for example clutch R/R can be treated as an UNscheduled item or realistically it can be considered a SCHEDULED repair item based on how one drives.
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    Wow... I had to replace the clutch in my old 95 Accord (after my son started driving it) and it was only a touch over $500.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Again for me a HUGE reason for a manual transmission vs automatic transmission. I am sure we all know folks who needed A/T work and decided to trade or trash a perfectly good car (sans the A/T repair issue)
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