The Future Of The Manual Transmission

dudleyr

The Civic was just revealed at NY and it looks like a stick is available as it was for 2011. LX and below for sedans and EX and below for coupes.

The SI is available only with a stick and the Hybrid and HF only with an automatic.

Not really in the market right now (Accord is hardly broken in at 104k miles) but it gained some interior space so it might work for me. Little disappointed in the mpg for the stick. 36 highway - only 2 better than an Accord. 4 worse than Elantra and the same as the new AWD Imprezza.

The new Mazda 3 will be shown shortly - should have plenty of stick options. You can get one of those nicely loaded with the stick. Rear seat was too tight in the last generation, but maybe it is better now.

samm43

Is the new Impreza a CVT? If so I am very skeptical what real world will deliver. Everyone knows finally by now that Nissan was one of the first to really push the CVT's, which, somehow, managed to score well with EPA tests (which must not consist of very hilly terrain simulations) but in real world they (Altimas for example) are a disappointment. I have driven a new Outback with the CVT and the engine revs, amount of throttle needed to sustain road speed (it sniffed out grades like a 25hp VW bug used to), and trip mileage computer all suggested it was not getting anywhere near EPA mpg. I have read since that owners are also disappointed, so I wouldn't be too quick to believe unrealistically high mpg claims on what is still an AWD vehicle. It has been very hard to acquire any free ride in any AWD vehicle, even if they are making some progress in the FE department, if in bits and drabs.

I can see the potential benefit of fitting a CVT in a hybrid. But for the rest, I'm not convinced its superior in any way let alone economy.

What is really unfortunate, is that manual equipped cars don't come with the SAME final drive ratios as their automatic counterparts. (at least for the top two gears). Instead, they are penalized with ratios that, not only final drive but ratios in the transmission too, are considerably lower. I have my suspicions why, but they border on conspiracy theories that no doubt someone will say I should don my tinfoil hat before expressing them.

Sam

xwesx

For the Impreza, the 36 mpg rating (highway) is for CVT. The new 2.0L engine with manual transmission is rated at 33 mpg highway.

Of course, the looks of the car itself leave much to be desired:

Inside Line first look - 2012 Impreza

tallman1

Little disappointed in the mpg for the stick. 36 highway - only 2 better than an Accord.

The Civic automatic gets 39 highway but I know you and I could do much better with the stick. If they would just gear that last one as tall as the automatic!

At least the stick is still available. Too bad you can't get one in the EX sedan though... you could in 2011.

dudleyr

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicles/future-cars.aspx

Accent just announced. $12,500 for a 6 speed stick. Not so bad. I think the sedan looks a little squashed, but the hatch sure looks nice. I look forward to the Elantra Hatch when it comes out.

30 mpg city and 40 mpg highway for the stick and the automatic. That tall 6th gear helps on the highway.

Interesting how different companies do things. The Cruze gets 36 mpg highway with the manual and 42 with the stick (eco model). Honda does it the other way with 36 for stick and 39 for automatic. While Hyundai keeps them the same.

nippononly

Of course, with the new Impreza, one will want the stick to use every ounce of available power (this one is significantly down-powered from the current engine, with no reduction in weight or AWD driveline drag), unless one really LOVES to motorboat everywhere!

I am so disappointed that Honda couldn't do a better job with the fuel economy of the stick shift models for the 2012 Civic. :-(

stickguy

Bingo. that is what I have been asking for. Assuming the front seat passes the comfort test, and the rear visibility is not quite as bad as it appears, exactly what I need.

and many K cheaper than a Focus hatch.

small is good.

stever

The 2012 Soul gets a new 135 hp engine linked to a 6 speed manual.

2012 Kia Soul Revealed: 2011 New York Auto Show

The 2012 Impreza gets a smaller engine and a 5 speed MT option. A 6 speed "manual mode" paddle option is available on higher trim levels.

2012 Subaru Impreza Debuts: 2011 New York Auto Show

(Both links from Inside Line).

xwesx

Kia: Ugly but practical; it seems like a decent trade-off in the end.

dudleyr

http://www.mazdausamedia.com/content/2012-mazda3-skyactiv-makes-us-debut-boasts-- 40-mpg-highway

More good news for stick fans.

Mazda 3 now has a 6 speed stick, and they are claiming "miata like" shifting. 2.0 liter engine will finally be available on the hatchback for 27/38 mpg. The Sedan gets 28/39.

dudleyr

Article on the Stick shift show cars.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/04/2011-new-york-auto-show-searching-f- or-shifty-speed.html

elias

I've got my 05 GTO back with new LS7/Vette-Z06 clutch, new transmission input shaft, new engine rear seal.

It's like learning to drive a stickshift for the first time, it's so different. and
excellent.

The technician was way into talking to me and showing me the old parts.
I mentioned that his analysis indicated the clutch is likely to fail in the exact same way after another 90k, causing again the same damage to transmission and engine rear seal.
(pilot needle bearings disintegrated, causing the whole clutch to vibrate and loosen engine rear seal and score the transmission input shaft).

I'm not driving ~60k miles yearly so maybe it will be a while before the car hits 180k.
I've got Pedders suspension on it too - so the car is actually better than new at this point. I'll think of it as a new car. until something like a starter motor or water pump fails, which is probably a next likely failure.

btw, did you know the only USA pickup truck available with diesel engine and manual transmission is the DODGE ?! i don't think GM offer manual transmission whatsoever on the fullsize pickups...

kyfdx

That's interesting..

A friend of mine was the first one on the block with an '04 GTO when they came out in January, '04... Paid MSRP.. :sick:

Now has over 170K miles.... on the original clutch...

plekto

And if you drive it very conservatively, it get nearly 30mpg highway on long trips. But only the 2004 with manual. Automatic is 5mpg worse. (not to mention, buying a manual GTO is like buying a manual 911 - just drive yourself to the retirement home already if you do that.

elias

indeed the 2004 GTO motor is significantly weaker than 05/06. And with 170k gotta be mostly highway miles and not so many shifts as some of us east-coast drivers do.
Or could be that your rookie young whippersnapper 170K GTO pal is better at driving a standard transmission than me after 35 years. hey, it could happen! maybe he'll tell me the secret !
(ps all 3 years of USA Holden/Monaro/GTO shift like a truck with long throws not good for speed-shifting - there is no comparing it with a click click click porsche/audi shifter.)

plekto

While the 04 GTO does have 50HP less, I'd trade it for the extra 5-6MPG it gets over the 05 model. 300HP is plenty and unless you are drag racing at lights, 350HP is overkill considering the penalty you pay for it.

ateixeira

Feeling a bit grumpy, wes?

The Soul is already the best selling box, easily beating the Scion xB and Nissan Cube. The new engine will help extend that lead.

The video you linked to about the Impreza mentioned a dramatically improved interior. rsholland saw it in person and liked it, FWIW.

ateixeira

Why just Miata-like? They make the Miata - just use the same shifter!

The MPG on the 3 sounds great, though. They've been hyping SkyActiv for nearly a year now, nice to finally see it on the road.

xwesx

Grumpy? I would have to dig back through my memory, but I don't think so....

What? The Soul is ugly. But, you take something ugly and make it practical, and it is often still worth the buy. Take the Ridgeline for example.

So, really, I was being serious; it seems like a decent trade-off. For what it's worth, the Cube and xB are also ugly (the xB much more so after its redesign than the original, boxy, iteration).

--------------------

Regarding the Impreza, I'm itching to experience one in person despite my disappointment about the exterior changes.

elias

04s & LS1 & other smaller V8s do get better mpg, yes.
But aside from please be assured that your opinion that the LS2's 400hp/400ft-lbs is overkill is not shared by many of owners, and it's reflected in the prices for 05s/06s vs 04s...

One thing I bet is the same price is a clutch job for the LS1 vs LS2 drivetrain . Many samples on the owner web site show that the clutches seem to last less than 100k miles on average.

Going 170k on factory clutch is heroic/record-setting for this car, definitely a donut for that guy! Two donuts if the clutch fails catastrophically 5 minutes after he takes delivery of whatever new vehicle he trades it in for. :shades:

ateixeira

It just seemed like you didn't like anything you saw...

I think the Soul looks great for its intended market segment, now it got a modern powertrain to match.

I like the Impreza sedan more than the hatch, which is odd because on the previous generation I felt the opposite way. 36mpg with AWD is best by a wide margin - makes the Suzuki SX4 totally obsolete.

stickguy

My daughter (15 YO, 16 late this year) is all excited to get her permit. And she very much wants to learn on my stick Accord (instead of the family minivan). Largely so no one will see her piloting the land yacht, but also so she can rub her older brothers nose in it!

her BFF will be 16 a few months later, and also likely will learn stick (her older sister did, and normally drives one of the manual trans cars in their family).

That family has an older Chrysler minivan, a gen 1 miata, and a 2000ish GTI, so the daughter usually pilots one of the small cars.

ateixeira

There is hope, then...

nippononly

yesterday, and noticed that you can't get a Civic EX with a stick any more. So if you want a moonroof and a stick, you have to buy the SI. Not a good trend. :-(

Was reading an article on the 2012 Impreza and noticed there will now be a Sport Limited trim, which I hope will have a moonroof, but what's the bet that will be auto-only as well? And that one's even worse, the automatic is a CVT rather than one with discrete ratios like Honda's Civic 5-speed. :-(

ateixeira

The Sport is supposed to replace the Outback Sport, which came with a manual. I hope not.

Some models with the CVT will offer paddle shifters and 6 ratios to choose from.

nippononly

I get that, but I am assuming there is a Sport trim and also a Sport Limited trim. How much do you want to bet the Limited is the one with the moonroof, and is also automatic-only? I'd bet quite a bit... :-(

And I bet the 2017 Civic is automatic-only for all trims except possibly the SI, if there is still an SI. :-( :-(

We have been discussing this topic for many years and it always seemed like sometime in the distant future manual availability might become very limited, but that seemed like a fairy tale date far far away.

The impending extinction of the manual is suddenly beginning to seem uncomfortably close. :sick:

dudleyr

I seriously doubt Honda will Take the Stick away from the Civic for 2017. They would do the larger Accord first and then possible the Civic. Although I don't see that happening either in the near future.

Now the Camry may loose the stick option, as it is almost impossible to find a stick Camry.

If the day comes in my lifetime when you can't get a stick it will be the day I just give up and get a Prius (or whatever the equivalent would be at the time). No joy in driving an automatic, so might as well get something super efficient.

I can quite honestly say that I much prefer driving my stick Accord to my brothers automatic 530i. Ironicly he special ordered his car from Germany through military sales and was supposed to get a manual. They goofed and sent an automatic. Must have thought - he is an American and must want an automatic. They of course did not charge him for the automatic, but I still would not have kept the car even if they threw in the automatic for free.

ateixeira

Wow, that's a pretty big mistake for them to have made!

No way I would have accepted that car.

A local Mazda dealer went out of business and another dealer bought their inventory, so they had an automatic Miata dirt cheap. Mid-level model, it was selling in the $19.5k range freight included.

Tempting as it was, I passed. I ended up paying $22.8k for a bit more equipment, but what price can you put on happiness? Even with paddle shifters an automatic Miata is like non-alcoholic beer.

isellhondas

Since I'm no longer involved with day to day operations, I didn't know Honda had dropped sticks in Civic EX's.

I'm not surprised since I don't think I sold one in the past five years.

They simply don't sell so the stores weren't ordering any.

Honda would force a couple on us from time to time and they just sat.

shipo

Back in 2002 I ordered my 530i with a full load of luxury goodies, the Sport Package, and a 5-Speed manual transmission through BMW's European Delivery Program. When I got to Munich my car actually attracted attention from a number of the BMW employees. Why? It was a non-barebones car ordered by an American with a stick. Several of them actually had me sit in the car with them to have their picture taken with them pointing at the shift lever; I was quite surprised at all of the attention.

ruking1

I have read in passing that fully 95% of the European fleet is manual. The ratio in the US is less than 20% and getting lower. I am sure most 5 series in the states are automatics.

robr2

Actually the sell rate of manuals is closer to 75% now in western Europe. You'll see it drop even more in the next few years as autos become even more efficient and cheaper.

ruking1

That is good to know. Where in passing did you read it has gone down to 75%.? What might be of interest is the passenger car fleet is SLIGHTLY larger than the US @ 270.5 M vehicles (US being 258.4 M, circa 2008 .gov figures)

I am not sure the plan is to make the price to the consumer "cheaper". In 09 a DSG (non slushbox automatic) cost app 1,100 dollars premium over the (more preferable) 6 speed manual. I most certainly would have NOT gotten either a VW nor a diesel, if it were VW's "normal" slush box automatic. For as long as VW has been making and offerering diesels, their past automatics leave a LOT to be desired. As you know the DSG is a very very very small minority of automatic transmissions. For that matter in the US anyway, there are not many examples of the DSG with multiple 100k miles.

Further but actually on topic, It was almost a PITA to try to get either without the sunroof (even more of a premium). The trend was evident to me.

wwest

For many of us, maybe even the majority of manual transmission fans, FWD does not equate to sports, sporty, driving, which is what a manual transmission is mostly about.

So, many of us simply care little, or not at all, if FWD and/or F/awd vehicles w/manuals disappear from the marketplace.

qbrozen

with the huge sport compact craze, that obviously is not true.

robr2

with the huge sport compact craze, that obviously is not true.

You can only count the sport compact tuner crowd in 8-10 years - those folks don't buy new cars!!

igozoomzoom

Since I'm no longer involved with day to day operations, I didn't know Honda had dropped sticks in Civic EX's.

Unless I'm missing something, the Honda website shows the 2012 Civic EX Coupe w/o NAV with a 5-speed manual. The EX w/ NAV and all EX-L Coupes are A/T only.

...or perhaps your comment is about Civic EX Sedan, which I now realize is A/T only, is the one you're referring to....and in which case this posting is irrelevant and I'm continuing to type only to further confuse myself....

I think it's time for my medication....

xwesx

Maybe I am a minority here, but that is not my take on a manual. For me, manual-equipped cars don't have to be "sports" or "sporty." I simply prefer the manual because it makes for a more engaging drive. Granted, "sports/sporty" also can make for a more engaging drive, so they do go hand-in-hand, but one need not be a requirement for the other.

robr2

To be honest, I've been driving stick for so long that I've become oblivious to it. In my regular driving, having a stick is so second nature that it's no more engaging than an automatic.

Now if I out on some country road enjoying a bit of spirited driving, that's a different story.

qbrozen

You can only count the sport compact tuner crowd in 8-10 years - those folks don't buy new cars!!

Well, heck, SOMEBODY is buying up Civic Sis, Focus SVTs, Mazdaspeed 3s, GTIs, and Mini Cooper Ss.

robr2

Well, heck, SOMEBODY is buying up Civic Sis, Focus SVTs, Mazdaspeed 3s, GTIs, and Mini Cooper Ss.

All 127 of them sold every go to either grown ups or 19 YO $35,000 millionaires so the sport compact scene isn't the reason they sell.

Also, those are all the sport models - manuals will be available on those until the take rate is so low, it won't be worth it. Further, I see DSG's to be the future in those - today's buyers want more technology.

qbrozen

Your original statement was that "sport" and "FWD" don't equate. But since you've dubbed these FWD tuner cars as sport models, I suppose my point has been made.

True enthusiasts should not discriminate based solely on the wheels being driven.

wwest

"..for a more engaging drive.."

Around town or on a "sports" outing I LOVE our manual transmission cars, on the hwy, long boring drives, I'll settle for the LS400 automatic EVERY time.

wwest

Sorry, I think I was the author of that: "sport" and "FWD" don't equate statement.

"..FWD tuner cars as sport models.."

FWD tuner..Okay.

FWD sports models...marketing speak...ONLY.

Not, NEVER from my viewpoint. Not for the kind/type of sporty driving I enjoy. Pick your best FWD "tuner" sport model and just try and keep up with me in the twisties with any reasonably equivalent RWD "sports" cars.

wwest

"...I see DSG's.."

No, the DSG gearbox is too complex, what we'll next see is "simple" 6 speed automatics absent the torque converter. After all, that's really all the DSG is, an automatic transmission with an ECU control box to replace the torque converter/(clutch).

wwest

What..??!!

You CANNOT be a true (driving) enthusiast without discriminating against FWD and/or F/awd vehicles.

tallman1

In my regular driving, having a stick is so second nature that it's no more engaging than an automatic.

My guess is that if you had the same vehicle with an automatic, you'd notice a big difference.

I understand the second nature part but I vividly remember my test drive of an automatic Accord back in 06... and then the manual. Night and day.

nippononly

...or perhaps your comment is about Civic EX Sedan, which I now realize is A/T only

Sorry, I probably should have specified originally, it was the Civic sedan I was referring to. Considering how much the coupe and sedan share mechanically, it is an even more despicable decision Honda made, to cancel the stick in the EX sedan but not the coupe.

tallman1

it is an even more despicable decision Honda made, to cancel the stick in the EX sedan but not the coupe.

That's kind of what Honda has been doing. For 2011, you could get a stick in the Accord EX or Civic EX but now for the 2012 Civic EX, it's gone. I'm wondering if that means you won't be able to get a stick in the 2012 Accord EX sedan either.

Since 2008, you couldn't get the stick in any Accord V6 sedan but you can in the coupe. Same price as the auto though.

cdnpinhead

Nice story -- good to hear.

I got a similar (but much more muted) response at Gatwick when I requested a manual transmission (rowed with the left hand there) diesel vehicle with my corporate National account.

There are still some of us out there, and we breed. All four of my kids drive manual transmission cars -- their spouses, not so much. In a few years I'll go to work on the first of the grandchildren, with her dad as my co-conspiritor.