The Future Of The Manual Transmission

ateixeira

I bet that Zook weighs twice as much as my dual-purpose bike, too.

Parking in the living room is too easy, you have to do a full engine rebuild in there. :shades:

fintail

I don't know if those are the best bikes to use for training. Maybe good for short people, but not light, and the tank is wide. And that heavy clutch...that thing is what got me thinking about a clutchless bike.

Engine rebuilds are for shops - keep the local economy going, and you have someone to blame when you notice the piston rings weren't installed :shades:

ateixeira

I could only blame myself (rebuilt the air cooled 125cc in my Aero).

elias

(for future reference, when avoiding insults, it's generally required to avoid all mention of family relationships and suggestions of remedial education/magazines... just so ya know for next time!)

best wishes with your continuing decades of career as a professional engineer, and may your car-buying experience be void of any vehicle engineered with too many gears.

6 gears seems to be the ideal number for a manual for me, but maybe I'll change my mind if i get some serious driving-time in a manual-shift car with 7 gears.

Fwiw, I had very little objection to the Caddy CTS-V's "4" automatic gears & its torque-converter-lockup on the racetrack but have not driven an automatic transmission vehicle in years, aside from that one.
I bet the caddy automatic would be fine for street driving too. A manual shift CTS-V would probably be more fun for the street...

The slushbox/old-school-hydraulic automatics with electronic controls & lockup/torque-converter-clutch continue to be my favorite automatic transmissions - greatly preferred over the recent automatics such a DSG/SMG/CVT.

nippononly

We may have reached a turning point. I think we will all talk about the "good old days" when we could get manual transmissions, hydraulic power steering, and responsive, normally aspirated engines.

I was just thinking the same thing the other day, with particular regard to the awful electric steering we are now lumbered with even in expensive models like the new BMWs.

I was over here worrying that manuals might go away one day, and they went and killed the steering while I wasn't looking! I have looked and looked in the reviews for anyone to say "fantastic electric steering in this new model X" and those reviews don't exist. The best you might see reviewers say is "decent steering given that it is electric" or some such thing. And in the reviews of the new 3- and 5-series, they have all said steering is significantly worse than the models they replaced.

As for my experience with it, I would agree that electric steering is terrible. I haven't found a single one that could hold a candle to the feedback, weighting, and precision of the hydraulic power steering systems of the past.

We may one day see manuals go away entirely (I am now convinced it won't be in the foreseeable future) but by then we may not care - they may have sucked so much fun and personal control out of the driving experience by then that who will care if manuals go away as well?

victor23

they may have sucked so much fun and personal control out of the driving experience by then that who will care if manuals go away as well?

This is very well put. Watch out, especially, for self-driving cars. I would bet they will be mandatory in 10-15 years, because it is the only possible solution to the cell phone and distraction problem (as well as other problems besieging the populace unable of self-control).

ateixeira: hydraulic power steering, and responsive, normally aspirated engines

Well, electric steering to hydraulic is the same as hydraulic to normal non-power steering (which is what I learned to drive back then). ;-)
Having said that, I am not very particular about steering (when I hear people complain, I often start musing something on the lines of "A poor workman blames his tools"), but I really miss "responsive normally aspirated engines". Sure, they had their fair share of problems, but my first electronic injection came as a shock. I understand that they are tuned for the fuel economy, but still, since ~1995-98, it is my constant feeling that I drive a car with a wrong spark timing.

elias

victor, your premise for why self-driving cars will be mandatory seems to be that driving is getting less safe. but the opposite is true. driving is safer every year. so there's less and less call for self-driving cars, at least due to the reason you identify. can you identify a valid reason why self-driving cars would become mandatory?

also there are plenty of cars with very powerful/torquey normally aspirated engines today and yearly since 1998. there's been increasing variety available for such cars since then actually. shop around, man!

i suppose this ought to be in another forum. only relevance to manual transmissions is that drivers with manual transmission cars are safer statistically than automatics, more evidence counter to victor's prediction. also their cars are less likely to be stolen than otherwise-identical automatic-transmission models.

srs_49

can you identify a valid reason why self-driving cars would become mandatory?

Let me try. Self driving cars would probably reduce backups and allow for higher density traffic on existing roads (I know, hard to believe that's possible if you live in the Washington DC area). This would reduce the need for more roads, which are almost becoming unaffordable.

habitat1

only relevance to manual transmissions is that drivers with manual transmission cars are safer statistically than automatics, more evidence counter to victor's prediction. also their cars are less likely to be stolen than otherwise-identical automatic-transmission models.

Do you have a source for that? Makes sense, but when I asked Geico if they kept any stats, they did not show on their system that my TL was a manual, and it appears that they don't track it for rate purposes (i.e. no difference in their insurance quote for manual vs. auto). I believe a VIN number would indicate transmission, but at least so far, GEICO hasn't used it.

Interesting that my car was apparently the target of a thief late one night that had obtained a valet key for the car. We heard the alarm go off and the radio blaring at 3:00 a.m. outside our bedroom window. When I ran down, Louisville Slugger in hand, no one was in sight, radio was still blaring with all windows down and a few drops of blood on the steering column where the would-be thief cut his fingers trying to turn the key. Apparently, he didn't know that you have to depress the clutch pedal to start the car. I asked the responding DC police officer if they were going to take the blood samples for DNA matching and he just laughed. Several neighbors thanked me for their 3:00 a.m. wake up call to the beat of "Juke Box Hero".

ateixeira

same as hydraulic to normal non-power steering

NA Miatas were available with no power assist! They're sought after now.

dudleyr

Love manual steering. Still miss my 1980 Scirocco. Most fun car I have driven. It's not all about speed and hp.

Never driven a manual steering miata - must be fun as well.

ateixeira

No filter for the feedback. Not ideal for parking lots but at speed they're wonderful.

cdnpinhead

NA Miatas were available with no power assist! They're sought after now.

This is most certainly true.

It was also true back in '91 and '94 when I bought my Miatas. The first time, in '91, I had to seek out a base model that lacked power steering, but in '94 I happened on an "R" model that was spec'd w/o power steering from the outset.

I drove a '71 Kenworth tractor with "armstrong" steering for a couple of years, and it provided the same level of control that my cars with manual steering have -- I loved it. Plus which, it's not rocket science to drive a vehicle without power steering. It only requires that the vehicle be moving when directional changes are desired. It's called planning. Or "planning ahead" for those of you from less advantaged school districts.

habitat1

Or "planning behind" if you are backing into a parking space.

My first car, a 1978 Datsun B210GX didn't have power anything. Steering, brakes, windows, seats, ....engine. On the other hand it weighed 1,950 lbs and ran on 13" 145 width tires. My Acura TL has had a faulty power steering pump for the last 6 months, giving me almost no power assist when the vehicle is cold. At 3,400 lbs and sitting on 17" 235 width tires, parallel parking into a space with 2 feet to spare has definitely added 10 yards to my 7-iron. Helped add some zip to my line drives in baseball as well, although I still have a little trouble with the curve.

kyfdx

didn't have power anything.... ....engine

That's exactly how I remember the B210....

My '82 Accord had manual steering, but it was no fun at low speed... The steering wheel was far out ahead of you, and no leverage... Otherwise, the car was just about perfect..

fezo

I had no idea you could buy an Accord with manual steering as late as 82!

elias

that's funny with the jukebox-hero, man. also funny is that i got an offer for popular-science for $10/year today. i am probably going to subscribe, to honor you, as well as my lost youth.

my source for manuals-cheaper-to-insure is 'amica' - looong ago... but i haven't gotten a new quote in years. maybe rates are identical today. years ago there was something like a $60 (<5%) difference for an automatic vs manual Z28, near Boston.
if you get a couple of VINs of identically-equipped-except-for-transmission new vehicles, you can check/compare with your company. locally it seems that always needs a VIN for an exact quote.
please don't mention geico - the company that refuses to insure anyone who owns a radar detector. (also please never mention the susquehanna hat company.)

xwesx

'69 Econoline.... manual steering everything (except transmission - go figure!). That thing is smooth as butter to steer at any speed (greater than about five), but boy is it a chore to maneuver in tight spaces! I've given myself a serious workout more than once trying to get out of a tight spot.

elias

1978 pacer. manual steering. manual brakes too i think. crank windows. the driver turned engine off at top of Rt 2 hill and rolled down @ 60 mph for a few miles, took a belmont exit and coasted to the front of one of the original Steve's ice-creams. he had to restart the car to parallel park into the parking spot, however.

rock on!

habitat1

Rock on indeed. I'd throw my B210GX in neutral at the entrance to a municipal park in the woods where we played softball and get coasting down a dirt road that, if you took the turns just right, you could make it to the field (0.8 miles) with about 3 mph of coast to spare. That little B210 had fewer horsepower than my lawnmower and chainsaw combined, but it coasted better than any car I've owned since. I had an older friend that insisted he could do it with his manual transmission Jaguar E-Type V12. You can guess the bet. I had hot dates every night the next week while he drove around in my yellow B210 with a bag over his head.

Thanks for bringing back that memory.

victor23

manual steering. manual brakes too

Well, any steering better be "manual". But "manual" brakes may be too much to take ;-), if you are not speaking about the parking brake (which many people wrongly call "emergency" brake).

elias

you are most welcome, habitat1. I've got Datsun B210 memories too, but probably not so many hot dates in a week!
Two friends had the B210s during 1980s. manual transmissions of course. One needed lots of duct tape to hold the rusted panels onto the car so it would pass inspection.
victor, manual steering means "non-power-steering - no power assist". it was not fun while parking. ok, probably you knew that but it is rather ancient knowledge at this point.

ateixeira

I had a 210 coupe, no B in the name. RWD, no power at all (including from the engine).

My wife had a Mitsugishi Mirage at one point with no power steering, so I'd reach over and help her in parking lots!

dudleyr

Believe it or not I used to have a '76 volare station wagon with the 225 slant six engine. It had 3 on the tree and manual steering. Kinda like driving an old pickup truck, but lower. It is a slug by today's standards, but with no power sapping accessories (no a/c either) and a manual, it would roll most its contemporaries.

habitat1

If you are old enough to remember this T.V. ad, you have my condolensces:

We are Driven

bpizzuti

I'd take 48 MPG highway considering gas prices....

habitat1

48 MPG required the 5-speed manual version that had a catalytic converter and used new "unleaded" gas, which was 10-15% more expensive than "regular" gas that contained lead. The 5-speed was designed to meet California requirements and hard to find on the east coast.

Mine was the 4-speed manual version that burned "regular" gas and was rated 30/42 instead of 36/48. It made it to 110,000 miles before it went to the great junkyard in the sky.

nippononly

EPA ratings have been downgraded twice since then haven't they? So 48 then was probably about 40 now, meaning you have a wide variety of choices available to you that make the same highway mileage that car did! :-)

Who wants to bet that sales of manual-equipped Accords will go up now that the automatic is a CVT? ;-)

bpizzuti

Given the Accord's target market, absolutely sales will go up. It's not like they're Mazda...not anymore anyway. :shades:

habitat1

I think you are right about EPA ratings being downgraded, but I still got 40-42+ mpg vs. EPA 42 on highway drives with my 4 speed B210GX. Best tank was 44.5 as I recall.

Never figured out why my Honda S2000 was only rated 20/25. I would regularly get 30+ on the highway and even managed 34 mpg on one 240 mile trip back from Williamsburg with the top down and my golf clubs in the passenger seat. Not exactly great for aerodynamics.

kyfdx

When my '82 Accord was newer, I consistently achieved 36 mpg.. in all sorts of driving...

That was a carbuereted 1751 cc, 4 cylinder....

No A/C or P/S, though.. (and, much, much lighter than a modern Accord)

ateixeira

I recall an article that mentioned the S2000 got much better than stated EPA mpg in the real world, among the top under-rated cars actually.

ateixeira

Probably the size of today's Fit, no?

volkov

Like my old Civic - my first car and still one of the most fun to drive. Manual rack and pinion with great feedback., On a straight stretch of highway I swore I could have closed my eyes and kept her in the middle of the road. Hated to parallel park her though. 5sp of course!

kyfdx

Well.. not inside! lol..

About the size of a mid-'90s Civic hatchback, I'd say... It was my daily driver for 12 years..... just plain wore it out...

elias

when comparing with ancient vehicle mpg please keep in mind that the gasoline back then was not as much adulterated with lower-energy mpg-robbing crapola.

the ballpark adjustment is +/- 10% accordingly when comparing 70s or 80s mpgs with recent decades reformulated gasoline 1,2..N.

there are 95 versions of reformulated gasoline now. none giving as much mpg as actual gasoline. thankfully the MTBE versions are gone but fwiw those provided better mpg than those using ethanol as oxygenate.

california switched to oxygenated gas in early 1990s. today it's everywhere in USA within 100 miles of cities. in distant rural areas real gasoline was still available last time I drove that far... try it and watch your mpg go up by an easy 10% whether you drive a stickshift or an automatic.

for those of us within 100 miles of cities, one way around the dirty-gasoline nonsense is to trade for a diesel vehicle, cleaner fuel , cleaner burning, less adulteration of the fuel, 50% better mpg. :shades:

p0926

My dad had a 1972 Datsun 1200 (forerunner of the B-210). That car routinely got 40+ mpg but then it only had 68 HP and weighed something like 1,600 lbs. Of course its zero-60 was glacial and you wouldn't want to get into an accident with anything bigger than a squirrel He used it as a daily driver for 15 years and then gave it to my sister who drove it for about another 5. It was extremely reliable but like many cars of that era, eventually succumbed to rust (passenger seat actually went thru the floor pan) :surprise: To keep this on topic, that was the car on which I learned to drive a stick.

-Frank P.

ateixeira

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/jaguar-f-type/jaguar-offer-manual-gearboxes

F-Type and maybe even the XF will get one. Cool.

stever

Don't recall ever seeing an incentive like this.

"Bonus Cash is available towards retail purchases on vehicles equipped with a manual transmission."

2013 Dodge Dart

ateixeira

AMEN TO THAT!

xwesx

That might be a bad sign... meaning the take rate on the manual is much lower than the MFG expected, so they're offering an incentive to get those cars sold. :sick:

elias

yes, it surely means there is excess inventory of manual-transmission Jags due to overestimate of ratio of stick buyers to automatic buyers...

xwesx

Jags... what? I thought we were discussing Dodge Dart?

ateixeira

They built 2 and only sold 1 of them.

nippononly

Isn't there one trim of the Dart that only comes with a manual?

bpizzuti

No, the turbo engine with the DSG was delayed availability. All three engines are slated to have optional clutch pedals (the 2.4L isn't available yet). Maybe if they make an SRT version, though I wouldn't blame them if they used the DSG.

elias

ah yes, of course, misread the thread re dodge dart.
indeed if Jag were to offer the incentive it would be $7500 not $750 .
What sort of incentives does Aston offer, just for pip pip wink wink nudge nudge say no more?

nippononly

how to build a good manual, judging by these comments in this month's MT:
I wish we'd gotten the 8-speed automatic in our long-term 328i...The shifter feels like it's made of rubber, and it snaps into gear like the latch on a microwave door. It doesn't feel particularly mechanical and it doesn't really like being hurried

I get some affirmation of my own opinion from this, as I drove the new model and couldn't understand why everyone praised BMW for such an average-feeling stick. Give me a Honda shifter any day - there's a company that is still making their sticks with care, even as they let a lot of other stuff go to pot.

I also noticed this commentary in the MT review, which perfectly puts into words my frustration with my new Toyota, as they clearly have the identical problem with their BMW:
The bigger issue is BMW's electronic throttle pedal. It feels completely disconnected from the engine, like a video game steering wheel and pedal combo. There's a lag in throttle response when you first tip into the pedal that's frustrating when trying to engage the clutch. It's even more infuriating when you're trying to rev-match your downshifts smoothly. It makes the engine slow to rev, and the relationship between pedal travel and engine rpm is non-linear, making it difficult to get the revs you want.

And just try to move the car both quickly and at short notice - makes you look like a manual-shift novice.

I would fear that throttle-by-wire will ultimately be the manual transmissions' undoing, except that in my Subaru it does not behave this way. But something that worked so well I took it for granted when throttles were still operated by a cable is on its way out, and since it has such a profound effect on my ability to enjoy using the stick, it is something I am going to have to be much more careful about when I test drive cars in the future.

Trust the auto industry to take something basic and screw it up by introducing needless new technology to it.

habitat1

Interesting, you have me wondering if BMW uses a different set up in the M3 vs. 328/335. When I test drove one a few weeks ago, it was pretty good - much better than the 535i manual I tested several months ago. Shorter, crisper throws and good throttle response/control. Still not 911 quality, but a lot better than the MT reviewer is indicating on the 328.

If it wasn't for a weak clutch, my former S2000 would have been neck and neck with my 911 in manual transmission quality. An even shorter throw, very precise. Unfortunately, even though it had half the torque of the 911, I could occasionally induce clutch slippage at high rpm shifts. I never drove anything other than a Porsche that had a better feeling manual transmission than that S2000. Even my 2004 TL has a better gearbox feel than the 535i did.

ruking1

DBW ( so called drive by wire) has been here (for @ least 10 + years) and is here to stay. There probably have not been major issues- a lot of complaints from M/T drivers, simply because we are in the minority position. (I have read in passing the M/T population is app 20%.)

TMI would be this technology was adapted decades ago from aircraft technology. HUD or heads up display might be another example. (still in an even smaller minority of vehicles)

I started to notice this (interface difference) in a 2003 Jetta TDI 5 speed. (10+ years ago and 179,000 miles ). An additional variable to factor in (a good thing, but an irritant with an advantage) is the no fuel draw with no throttle (in gear) or down shifts with no throttle input.

I didn't have any "rubber band feeling" or issues double clutching or more importantly declutching in a 2001 6 speed manual T56.