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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the old flathead 8s had a LOT of torque and low gearing. You could easily do that.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    My dad had a Fairlane with a 289/3 speed...he'd leave it in 2nd all the time for in town driving. Torque plus a long legged gear I guess. I've never been able to pull that off, and even managed to look dumb trying it on a motorcycle.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,514
    I had a Jeep CJ-5 with a 3-speed, straight-six..

    With only three gears, you have to learn to love 2nd... It takes the place of 2-3-4 on a 5-speed... :)

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hey, I had one of those too.

    Except mine was a 6 speed.

    (You never put yours into 4WD low eh?).

    Still don't get why leaving it in second all the time would somehow magically extend the life of anything except perhaps the clutch spring.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    Might be better than the constant 1-2-3 crap a higher strung car would need in dense traffic. A huge reason I don't want a manual here - it would just be up and down in those gears over and over, not really getting anywhere or having fun.

    That thought reminds me of a car a high school friend of mine had, a 69 Nova with a 307/powerglide. On acceleration, it would stay in low until about 45-50mph, then clunk into high/drive. That was it. Manual lovers must have hated that.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited September 2012
    On acceleration, it would stay in low until about 45-50mph, then clunk into high/drive.

    That was just like my dad's '62 Impala.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The 2nd gear habit would probably cause premature clutch failure, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/11/kia-to-offer-limited-edition-2013-rio-5-door-- sx-with-manual-gear/

    So now it's not only the base model any more.

    You could get Accent manuals with more features, now Kia offers them too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    Those are two cars that have probably advanced more than most others during the past several years. They are actually not complete pieces of garbage anymore.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Some cars in that segment moved backwards, making them seem even more improved.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Car and driver just tested the new '13 Accord Sport and got some interesting numbers.

    0-60 mph for I4 CVT 7.6 seconds. Not too shabby.
    0-60 mph for I4 MT 6.8 seconds. Quite nice.

    Stick wins by a substantial margin - once again. In fact it was within a couple tenths of the V-6 automatic from the previous generation. Impressive for a large sedan with a 4 cyl engine and no turbo.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Honda/Acura make some of the best manual transmissions around - per my previous S2000 and current TL. They also make some of the worst automatics compared to their more upscale competition (Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus) - per our MDX.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    0-60 mph for I4 MT 6.8 seconds. Quite nice. :surprise:

    They put a standard backup cam, even on the LX model, too. They're gonna challenge the Camry with this gen.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The same can be said about European cars as well. Their automatics are problematic and prone to electrical problems. Their manuals are bulletproof. Of course, precious few actually make it to the U.S. any more. In general, manuals are made better than automatics with Ford and GM being the two major exceptions. Of course, 98% of what they've made in about 1970 have been automatics, so they had better be great by now.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2012
    It is pretty apparent and for a longer time that the American buying public has been just fine with all the disadvantages of the A/T in many of its iterations. One thing that signals that are the 80% (probably +) passenger vehicle fleet that are A/T. It has really been only the last 3 or so years that A/T improvements have been hitting the markets.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Which disadvantages are those? They've all been engineered out.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well that is certainly one perspective. The truth is they have all been engineered in.

    Here is an easy one. When my 03 Jetta TDI needs a new clutch app 600. This is projected @ 400,000 miles . IF it were an A/T aka 1M model, a minimum of 4,000 and that is if you can get a shop that knows about it. Mostly likely mileage for most failures 250,000 miles.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Except that that's an incorrect comparison because a clutch in an MT is a wear item, whereas a clutch pack in an AT is used in a completely different manner and is NOT considered a wear item, but an integral part of the transmission. The proper comparison would be a tranny replacement in both cases.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2012
    No it is about as direct (dollar terms) a comparison as it gets. So if you are saying 600= 4,000. ....

    Now if you truly believe that then I would amend my original post in the most folks have actually swallowed the kool aid ;)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I'm saying you're whining that it's more expensive to do maintenance on an A/T that doesn't have to be done versus the maintenance on an M/T that actually DOES have to be done. You're really comparing a clutch replacement to nothing. $600 to replace the wear item versus $0 since there's no wear item to replace. Guess it's cheaper to use an automatic. :shades:
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Wear item or not, the potential maintenance/replacement cost of automatic or DCT type transmissions is considerably higher over the long run than manuals. One hopes that a Porsche PDK would never need to be replaced, but the cost is roughly 5 times that of a clutch replacement on a manual. The independent service technician - a former Porsche racing team member - where I took my car after it was out of warranty said that he had never seen a 911 manual needing a transmission replacement period, had only seen a couple that needed clutch replacements at over 100,000 miles. But the previous Tiptronics were $4k replacements and he did several of those at under 100k miles. The PDK is considered vastly improved technology over the Tiptronic automatic, but also more than twice as expensive to replace.

    For most people, the cost of maintaining or replacing an automatic transmission is not an issue that factors into their decision. And it didn't dissuade us from buying an automatic X5d over a Cayenne V6 manual. I just hope I don't experience a transmission repair bill on the X5 in my future.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The longevity of an early 90s Dodge minivan transmission is less than a clutch. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2012
    The truth is I have never done an A/T repair. So no, I am not whining. I do have a so called SLUSH fund for when and IF one ever goes south ! I have listened to a whole lot of folks who actually have been HIT with the A/T bills !! I do rather like the 300/350 in parts and 300 in labor to get new throwout bearings, clutch plate and flywheel (03 VW Jetta TDI 5 sp M/T) .

    I did many years ago have a clutch changed on a 1970 VW, which wasn't needed, but since it was apart..., YOU may as well. I was in the service at the time and the owner (German immigrant?) took pity on me and made me pay for the parts and for a couple of cases of Heineken had his crew change my clutch. We drank AFTER the clutch job. :shades: Great thing to do after work in the Miami, FL summer !?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    $600? How's that possible. The disc is $200 alone and labor is almost 6 hours. And you should have a new pressure plate, throwout, pilot bearing and clutch slave overhaul.

    If we're going to quote a price for a "rebuilt" auto trans, we should compare that to a "rebuilt" clutch as well I think.

    Also, lots of drivers burn out clutches in 60,000 miles. We see this all the time.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Repair/replacement of any more expensive piece of equipment is going to be more expensive than a cheaper piece of...equipment. A Porsche is more expensive to fix than a Dodge Caliber, does that make the Caliber better? No, it makes it a cheap piece of...equipment. :shades:
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    Also, lots of drivers burn out clutches in 60,000 miles. We see this all the time.

    Really? Then I must be very lucky. I have had one clutch replacement in my driving life - on my 1987 Acura Integra at 115k miles for about $700. Three other cars have exceeded 100,000 miles with no clutch replacements: 1978 Datsun B210 (105k), 1995 Nissan Maxima (160k), 1996 Isuzu Trooper (100k). I had my current 2004 Acura TL with 63k miles checked out by an independent mechanic when I was considering selling it to a friend and he estimated the clutch as having at least 75% life remaining (i.e. virtually no signs of wear based upon pedal travel and gripping strength)

    Conversely, a friend of mine who bought a 1996 Mercedes E420 new shortly after I bought my Maxima ended up selling it at a big discount in 2003/4 because it was out of warranty and started experiencing transmission "shudder" at 90k miles. Cost of repairs would have exceeded $6,000 back then. His old 240d 4-speed manual that he gave to his niece when he bought the E420 is still alive and kicking today - albeit with two clutch replacements - at 275,000 miles.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    And the "real world" FE avantage for the CVT is what, 30%..

    Real world meaning the average owner not paying much atttention to the task of shifting the MT consistently.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    An automatic transmission of any flavor has NO place in a "911" type Porsche. Porsche will forever remain a Mainstay of MT.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    edited September 2012
    30% wow that is impressive. :surprise:

    So I can go from 35 mpg lifetime in my MT5 Accord to 45 mpg just by putting in a CVT. ;) Lets be at least slightly realistic. Making up ridiculous numbers is pointless.

    BTW how is it that the new Accord is .8 seconds faster to 60 mph with the outdated manual than with the marvel called the CVT?
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I agree about the Automatic having no place in a Porsche, but they sell a heck of a lot of them.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2012
    ..."Porsche will forever remain a Mainstay of MT."...

    Not that I really have anything invested in it, but I hope it remains true. I understand that 75% of 911's and Porsches in general are A/T/PDK's. This by default leaves M/T @ 25%.

    This is even less than the Corvette line, whose percentage I last read was at 45% M/T and of course by default 65% A/T. I know both the Zr-1 and Z06 lines have previously been100% 6 speed M/T (standard). Other Corvettes have A/T as an option.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Must be that new math. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Also, lots of drivers burn out clutches in 60,000 miles. We see this all the time."...

    I do not think it can be disputed there are a percentage of drivers either intentionally or un... that are ready willing and able to trash a clutch.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    edited September 2012
    Absolutely you can burn up a clutch in 60k.

    They can also last indefinitely. My brother has two sticks with over 300k miles on the original clutch (Corolla and G20). I have an Integra with 230k and an Accord with 155k on original clutches. Never had to replace a clutch and always keep my cars well over 100k miles.

    BTW if 45% of Corvettes are stick then 55% are auto not 65%. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I stand corrected, but that was a softball.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I ever replaced in almost 30 years of car ownership was 25 years ago in a '75 280Z. That was at about the 150K mark but caught some abuse from roommates I lent the car to.

    The Echo I sold 9 months ago was at 170K miles, original clutch. I know the new owner, who has driven it 10,000 miles since then, still no clutch replacement. The real issue of clutch vs automatic is which will typically last longer given normal use. My money is on the clutch. ;-)

    But even if it does need replacement, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than rebuilding that automatic.

    As for replacing manual transmissions, it's all but unheard of isn't it? Sure, there is the rare car that gets over the 200K mark and the synchros wear out, but that is statistically a lot rarer than an automatic that stops functioning by that mileage, and gee whiz with the manual you can just skip the worn-out gear and keep driving it if it comes to that....can't do that when the automatic stops shifting.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2012
    This Answers question would make a good thread in here too. Or maybe we just need a "How to Drive a Manual" discussion?

    When downshifting a manual, is it ok to skip gears? (feel free to head over there with your tips).
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    1.) there is an EXPERT "stirring" the MT, consistent, FOCUSSED, attention to the matter.

    2. The engine driving the CVT is quite possibly derated for low speed acceleration due to the "fragility" of the CVT.

    Many of todays purchasers are buying FE, NOT 0-60 times.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I said 911 type Porsches, not Porsches in general, intentionlly excluding the Cayenne and Panamera.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,514
    No stats to back me up.... but, I think 911s have gone over, as well...

    I bet over 50% are PDK/Tiptronic..

    Just check a dealer's new car inventory.... :(

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  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    As for replacing manual transmissions, it's all but unheard of isn't it? Sure, there is the rare car that gets over the 200K mark and the synchros wear out, but that is statistically a lot rarer than an automatic that stops functioning by that mileage, and gee whiz with the manual you can just skip the worn-out gear and keep driving it if it comes to that....can't do that when the automatic stops shifting.....

    While I've never had to swap out a clutch myself in any of the cars I've driven, I do know that the '92 Subaru Legacy I inherited from my FIL needed to have it's clutch replaced not long after I gave the car to my son as a HS graduation gift.

    The Legacy had about 140K miles at the time. I drove the car sparingly for a few months before driving it from CO to CA (1100 miles) to give to my son. Taught him the basics of driving a stick, but only a few months later I heard that the clutch needed replacing.

    I never noticed any problems with gear changing, so I wonder if the abuse of a new driver put it over the edge.....
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I would agree that there was no place in a 911 for a Tiptronic automatic (that was often referred to as "Chick-tronic", which is an insult to my wife and 17 year old daughter).

    The PDK is a slightly tougher call. Porsche's newest PDK is generally regarded as the best on the market (i.e. better than Ferrari, way better than everything else). In the hands of a professional driver on a track, it allows them to keep both hands on the wheel in high speed turns at high G's. I experienced something like this first hand in the back seat of an M3 at BMW's Performance Delivery Center two weeks ago. I would have liked to see how an M3 with manual transmission would have compared as the driver accelerated at 30 mph out of a sharp turn to 130+ on an slight uphill straight and then slammed on the brakes to dive into a 150 degree downhill right turn and into the next straight. I was fully occupied in the back seat trying to keep my eyeballs in their sockets. I don't think I would have done too well in the drivers seat with only one hand on the wheel. On the other hand, I have a neighbor who is a highly accomplished amateur club racer (Porsche) and he claims he would still take a manual for the "heel-toe" shifting ability that no DCT -including the PDK - has been able to electronically match. So which is "better" appears to be personal and subjective. Given that I have never given myself a nosebleed or lost an eyeball in the footwell, I'm sticking with my right hand and left foot for everyday (albeit slightly enthusiastic) driving pleasure.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2012
    Yes, it was VERY clear what you SAID.

    It was also clear what I said.

    ... I understand that 75% of 911's and Porsches in general are A/T/PDK's. This by default leaves M/T 25%...."

    I even addressed what you said. So what about what you SAID didn't you think that I understood? I just put it in over all "Porsche" context. You don't like that? Then ignore or address it. But then you ignored the context, which is fine.

    More to the point, you ignored the part about most (75%) 911's being A/T. Then you later claim, I didn't understand what you said. :sick: :lemon: The truth imight be more, you didn't understand what I wrote. Or you didn't like me actually SAYING 25% (MINORITY) of 911's are M/T. By default, 75% (MAJORITY) are automatic.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    An article in early 2012 indicated a 78% take rate on the PDK over manual transmission on the new 911: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/02/porsche-911-manual-transmission-phase- d-out-maybe.html.

    However, according to a couple of Porsche sales managers I have talked to, this was skewed by the fact that almost all of the initial cars delivered to dealerships for the 991 introduction events were PDK's and dealers couldn't even order the 7-speed manuals until after the initial introduction. At the dealerships I have been checking in our area, it appears that PDK's account for anywhere from 50 to 70% of their new 911 inventory. If I have some time to kill, I will do an actual statistical analysis, as I am more interested in facts than guesses or fourth hand information. Unfortunately, I don't know how to factually verify this, but according to the sales manager that invited me to a track event this Sunday, approximately 50% of the 911's that he custom orders are 7-speed manuals. They never make it to the website inventory.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2012
    Yes, I have found that kind of information is about as available as hen's teeth. Either that or it is specifically designed to evade "google type" searches. So in lieu of actual manufactures published data (if in fact they do publish it) most are guesses. So even if you are spot on about those custom orders, the effects are probably not even measurable.

    Even the 20% passenger vehicle fleet M/T figures is a guess. (80% being some sort of A/T) 257.5 M P vehicles, 2010 figures.

    GM for whatever reason was a little more transparent about the 5773 unit 2001 Z06 production. 100% were 6 speed manuals.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I'd be very surprised if even 10% of new passenger vehicles sold today are M/T's. I haven't been to a Chevy or Ford dealership lately, but even the Honda dealership that I bought my former S2000 at didn't have a single Accord manual transmission to test drive when a friend was shopping there last month. Only one DC area Acura dealer has any 6-speed manual TL SH-AWD's in stock in the past year, and at 2-3 units, represent well less than 2% of their TL inventory.

    Somebody posted a link a few months ago to "10 cars you didn't know you can get with a stick" that was pretty interesting:

    TL SH-AWD: 5% (does not include TL FWD in denominator, where all are A/T)
    Audi A5: 10%
    Buick Regal: Less than 10%
    Hyundai Tucson: 1.5%
    Lexus IS: 1.5%
    Mazda 5: 6%
    Porsche Cayenne / GTS: 1.3% and 7.2%
    Subaru Outback: 10%
    Toyota Camry: 3%
    VW Tiguan: 1.8%

    To which I would add my favorite car, dollar for dollar:

    Honda S2000: 100% (as it should be)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nice to see a high take rate for Subaru manuals, and that's a 6 speed, too.

    I bet Forester is similar and Impreza is much higher (including all WRXs).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2012
    I think in that sense the Germans oem VW takes the lead, with the VW moniker offering almost all its models with a stick. Passat is the midsize, albeit BIG sedan, Jetta, Golf, NB, Tiguan and I probably left off a few. I know for a fact the US market Touareg is NOT offered in M/T. Again most to all STANDARD with a M/T. Now I am sure they tailor the M/T vs DSG/ A/T so they can sell any to all. (try to get to ZERO the cars that will not sell because of M/T)

    That is probably why it was left off that "top 10 list."

    In regards to the over all 20% M/T passenger vehicle fleet (app 51.5 M of 257.5 M) , it is probably fair to say that as long as the replacement M/T percentage is slightyly greater than the SALVAGE percentage of M/T equipped vehicles ( I have read in passing that industry averages are pegged @ between 7 to 7.5%), then the population of M/T should be pretty stable. In that context, the average age of the fleet is now going on 11 years old. Average yearly sales are a (low) 9.5 M to 14.5 M (high or "good year")
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    In a WSJ article, there's this "like for like" comparison.

    "With the five-speed manual tranny, the Crosstrek returns a rated 23/30 mpg, city/highway, as compared with 25/33 for the car with the CVT."

    From reading the review, you'll be happier paying more at the pump.

    Sorry, Can't Hear You Over the Subaru Crosstrek
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I've had to replace a manual transmission once. That was in a Toyota 4Runner with nearly 300K miles on it that had been abused every day of its life before I got it. $1400 and that was that - brand new transmission. As in, had to fill it with gear oil myself and do a 3K mile wear-in procedure. It's incredibly rare to ever replace the actual gears and syncros in a manual unless you really TRY to ruin it or run it so many miles that it wears itself to death. 300-500K typically, and it's usually the bearings on the output shaft that die and not the actual gears.)

    And there's plenty of warning, unlike a typical manual which gives you about 3-4 blocks warning when it decides to die.

    A clutch? Sure. But a factory clutch is typically $100-$150 for most vehicles and changing it is usually a simple drop and swap. I think the last clutch master I changed was $40 for the part.
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