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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    In the old days of VTEC, the SI had to have a manual, that was by far the best way to make use of it and have fun. Now that Honda has just gone large-displacement with the SI, a lot of the fun is kinda gone...why not just stick a 5-speed slushbox in it and call it a day....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's no longer an Si, really.

    The real problem is all the added content made them heavier, so it needed more torque. An original CRX Si was a feather weight.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,542
    edited August 2012
    My brother-in-law has a 2012 Civic Si 4 door. This is a very entertaining car to drive. And the manual trans is one of the very best in the world.

    People who love manuals should really like this car. It's a great deal for 22k.

    The last engine was kinda weak for daily driving, or at least I've heard. Some people rev their engine to 7 k before shifting, but imho those people are a little nuts. Shifting at 3-5 k rpm in the new larger Si engine is very sweet. That thing just pulls and pulls at any rpm.

    The shift knob is a heavy and cold piece of precision machined metal. Never felt one like that. I liked it a lot.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    you gotta rev the heck out of those vtec honda engines! think S2000 :)
    I never had an SI but I owned 3 early-1990s civics. they were great cars.
    but my mountain-highway civic commute mpg dropped massively (>25%) when the RFG/ethanol/MTBE gasoline was introduced in california...

    now all gas vehicles in USA get the "benefit" of significantly lower mpg thanks to ethanol! hooray.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    you gotta rev the heck out of those vtec honda engines! think S2000

    I had a 2002 Honda S2000. The serious acceleration started around 7,000 rpm when the Vtec really kicked in. 9,000 RPM redline. A little noisy, but a lot of fun.

    When I was fortunate enough to being able to buy a 911 in 2005, I seriously considered the GT3 with its 8,400 rpm redline. But no back seat. I ended up with a 911S Cab so I could cart around my wife and two young daughters in the "family car". Sold the 911 last year, but still miss my S2000 just about as much. At only $32k, it was an outright steal. It was absolutely the best sports car under $50k ever made by anybody. Period.

    I think Acura is missing the boat with the new $120k NSX. I wouldn't take it over a Porsche 911. But if they came back with a slightly improved, refined S3000 for about $50k, I think they would be able to put the base Boxster, Z4 and SLK out of business.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    now all gas vehicles in USA get the "benefit" of significantly lower mpg thanks to ethanol! hooray.

    Yeah but at least corn prices are much higher now. ;)
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    Yeah but at least corn prices are much higher now.

    So we get lower fuel economy on the way to the supermarket to pay higher food prices. A lose-lose proposition for the consumer.
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    btw, I'm clamming up for now about filling MT cars with shellfish. Can anyone direct me to the mussel car thread?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2012
    We really need to tackle these off-topic puns. Props to you for some good ones though - guess that the lure of a fun forum.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    At least you didn't talk about "canning" them....
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Just read the initial specs on Subaru's new XV Crosstrek (Soob's attempt to disguise an Impreza wagon as something else in order to gain additional sales from the same car), and feel betrayed!

    The manual will only be available in the base model (called Premium trim in this case), and you can't get the optional moonroof and NAV that are available on all automatic-equipped Crosstreks. Boo!

    Not to mention that the manual offered is still the crappy old 5-speed, with 10% worse fuel economy (EPA rating) than the automatic. Double boo! And from an automaker that I rely on to be one of the last defenders of the manual when all the big guys have dropped out of the manual business. :-(

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2012
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    Lame. I'm not surprised about the 5-speed, but I was sure they'd offer this one on both trim levels since they don't have three levels on this one.

    Oh well. I'm about ready to cross Subaru off my list for this next car.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    Subaru offers the XV with a 2.0-liter diesel and six-speed manual just an ocean away.

    Bastards! :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The thing is mad underpowered. Heck, the regular Impreza is a bit underpowered, so how is the heavier XV gonna not be?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Even with foot to floor on a short, sharp climb, the CVT noisily takes you nowhere in a hurry.

    I don't know which is worse, the stone-age 4-speed auto they had in the Impreza before, or the CVT they replaced it with! And the point is well made that power is seriously lacking for a vehicle this high and heavy.

    Of course, a 6-speed manual with well-sorted ratios could be just the ticket for abating the worst impacts of that little engine's lack of oomph, but noooooo. And once again, we see an automaker treating the manual-shift buyer as the cheapskate - bare-bones base model only, and no ability to add options, even ones that are available IN THE SAME TRIM with an automatic.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Well nobody buys manuals if they arent looking for the lowest cost ( so goes the saying, we all say it isn't true, and ford found out it wasn't true with the focus). Of course that is the excuse. I have a feeling that for some automakers, especially some like Subaru whose cars aren't the most fuel efficient, the problem is the CAFE numbers, if they offered the cars with manual irish all the options people might buy more, and then their numbers for CAFE would be lower ( due to the u realistic EPA fuel economy numbers, and the fact they don't gear the manual for fuel efficiency). And of course their is also the profit thing, if they can sell automatics instead of manuals hey get an extra $ amount profit per car.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Hit the nail on the head. They make more money on automatics and therefore prefer to sell them. Exception being the luxury cars that offer manuals as a no cost option.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    They make more money on automatics and therefore prefer to sell them.

    I have a feeling that automatics are now probably less expensive to make than manuals due to quantity efficiency
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    Possibly, but then again given the R&D costs on recent automatic offerings versus the very long running 5-speed manual, that extra $1,000 may still be helping to offset costs....

    Were they still using the 4-speed auto across their lineup (assuming we're still speaking of Subaru?), that wouldn't be the case by any means. That transmission had an exceptionally long run.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Might be why Toyota is still using a 4 speed slushbox in the smaller cars.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Autoguide.com just reported on the McLaren MP412C...sucker goes 0-60 is 3.2 seconds. That's faster than some people can shift, you know. This is why DCTs are the future, you can only work a clutch and shifter so fast...figure half a second at best, and the extra motions involved in the 2-3 and 4-5 upshifts could take an entire second.

    McLaren left the manual off of the car. DCT only. Probably a wise move.
  • victor23victor23 Member Posts: 201
    This, however, hardly has any relevance to the everyday street driving in the foreseeable future. Especially after introduction of "the small-overlap frontal crash test", which will make cars to gain even more weight and to become real small tanks.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    edited August 2012
    Most of These super cars don't even shift before they hit 60, so yes a manual driver could get there just as fast, I agree that the DSG type transmissions are good, but look at the cost of maintenance and repair/replacement. Volkswagen apparently wants around $8000 to replace the transmission and there is a $450 fluid replacement every 40-60,000 miles ( of course that is the cost if you go to the dealer, but even if you do it yourself it is apparently $200-250 just for the special fluid). A manual will never have this kind of service cost if it is driven properly, maybe change the fluid once in a while ( never have in any of my cars to date, but it is something that should be done nice in a while) for maybe $50-100 max, and maybe change a clutch every 100,000 miles ( again I have only changed one clutch in any of my cars, and that was after about 200,000 miles in my old 145 Volvo wagon). So although the dual clutch transmissions are nice I would still prefer a manual. This doesn't even take into account the extra complexity of the DGS which means it is More likely to fail in the first place.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    That's faster than some people can shift, you know.

    I'm not doubting you that it is faster than some people can shift, but that still made me laugh out loud! :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,335
    Yeah, it seems that the DC gearboxes do away with the down the road cost advantage of a manual. Almost unheard of these days for a manual trans itself to need replacing, unless the operator is a real hamfist. A clutch, maybe.

    I know that a plain old AT on a V6 Honda can run 4-5K all together (and often get replaced), and a DCT is even more given how complex they are.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    Porsche's 911 Turbo is even faster with their PDK, but....that also requires you go through a 15 second "launch control" set up procedure. If you add that time to the total, my 1978 Datsun b210 was faster than either.

    I'll shift my own , thank you, and save $4k up front, $10k if it ever breaks, and have more direct engagement and satisfaction in the process. But hey, I'm 55 and still play hardball baseball with wood bats on 90 foot bases, not softball with aluminum bats on 65 foot bases. With the better DC and PDK type transmissions, it's all about how much engagement YOU want to have rather than handing it over to a machine.
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    edited August 2012
    Might be why Toyota is still using a 4 speed slushbox in the smaller cars.

    That 4 speed was a massive improvement over the ridiculous 3-speed AT they used as recently as 2002 (Corolla and Prizm).
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Key word "was." We're not grading on a curve here. We're driving on one.
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    My point was that using a 4 speed "slushbox" as an example of ancient technology is overkill when such truly painful transmissions as the 10 year old Toyota 3 speed are still very common on the roads. If forced to buy an AT, I'd buy the Toyota or Subaru 4-speed over the CVT.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The 4 speed transmission was first released in what, the mid 80s? At best? I'd take a CVT with 6 faked gear ratios easily. I'd probably never use it in actual CVT mode, but I'd take it. 4 cogs just isn't enough anymore.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    If forced to buy an AT, I'd buy the Toyota or Subaru 4-speed over the CVT.

    If forced to choose between a 4-speed auto and a CVT, I would choose walking. ;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't mind driving automatics or CVT or whatever if it's a big clunky car or SUV, but I simply have no tolerance for that type of transmission on any vehicle that has any performance potential, and yes, that includes a Porsche. I *might* compromise on a 2-pedal Corvette or Cadillac CTS-V or BMW 5 Series, etc, because they are big enough that throwing them around on narrow roads (which is where I live) is not that much fun for me.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Funny thing is, for as much as people talk bad about it, the Corolla 4 speed auto STILL beats just about every other car in it's class in the Consumer Reports' real world fuel economy tests, except for a hybrid and a diesel.

    Not bad at all.

    Personally, I only like true manuals with 3 pedals. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My left foot needs to function regardless. If I'm in an automatic (like a rental car) I'm workin' the brake with the left foot. This is also a great defense against the so-called "unintended acceleration".

    I'm a 3-pedal snob, I admit it.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I try to exclusively have cars that are fun, and shifting for myself is a big part of the fun. Hence, I avoid "big clunky cars and SUVs" like the plague they are. ;-)

    (Although I will say that the one time in my life I owned an SUV, a 4Runner, it was also a stick shift...not that much fun to drive on the street, but lots of fun to drive off the pavement. :-))

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    Is the 4th gear in that life-sucking box long legged or something? That might explain it. The gear ratios have obviously been carefully chosen.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    If you shop around a little, it's quite possible to avoid "big and clunky SUV's".

    The Porsche Cayenne and BMW X5 both achieve close to 0.90g's on the skidpad. That happens to be equal to a 1996 Acura NSX at 0.89. Porsche's own 911 didn't break the 0.9g barrier until around 1995. And the V6 Cayenne can be ordered with a 6-speed manual. True enough, the Cadillac Escalades, Ford Explorers, Land Rovers and Lexus GX's of the world will still make you seasick around corners, but I was very pleasantly surprised when we went SUV shopping that BMW and Porsche have found a way to put a little "sport" in SUV.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well I always say to each his own, but by the same token I will have to beg to disagree with you. I have a sister with an X5 and when we trade cars the only sense I get when driving it is its sheer bulk. Not much fun, mainly a sense of the inevitable physics involved in making well over two tons of metal with a high center of gravity accelerate stop and turn....

    I do hear the X1 will be available with the 4-cylinder turbo and a 6-speed manual (and RWD), and I am open to the possibility that it might be fun to drive - we will see.It will still be too heavy, but at least it will be closer to the ground and under two tons in weight.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,514
    Back in the mid-'80s, Renault fitted the Alliance with a handling package and super-sticky tires... it pulled more Gs on the skidpad than the then-current Corvette... (per C&D)

    Still didn't make it sporty....

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If forced to choose between a 4-speed auto and a CVT, I would choose walking

    Not all CVTs are created equal.

    I test drove a new Impreza 2.0 CVT and liked it better than the Mazda 3s (2.5l engine with 5EAT).

    Much better than the CVT Lancer I rented in Puerto Rico. I'd rank that last among those 3 cars, all in the same class.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Sorry, my previous post wasn't to suggest that a 4,500-5,000 lb SUV was a sports car, just that BMW and Porsche in particular have gone a good way to making them handle well. Not sure which X5 your sister has, but the 2012 X5D that we test drove was a much better handling, braking and accelerating vehicle than our 2005 MDX. Having 425 ft-lbs of torque at 1,500 RPM doesn't hurt, but the overall balance seemed much better, as well.

    That said, if your needs and desires allow for a sports car or sports sedan, no need to test drive 5,000 lb SUV's. Just don't make the mistake of test driving 4,000 lb Mercedes SL or a 4,300 lb 650i. It's one thing for an SUV to weigh 2+ tons, it's completely inexcusable for a 2 seater or 2+2 to be that fat. I'll stick with a 3,000 lb 911 or 2,900 lb Cayman and leave the boat to something I attach to the back of our X5D.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited August 2012
    4,000 lb Mercedes SL or a 4,300 lb 650i. It's one thing for an SUV to weigh 2+ tons, it's completely inexcusable for a 2 seater or 2+2 to be that fat.

    Jeez, aint THAT the truth? I couldn't agree more.

    My sister's X5 is a 2012 xdrive35D, yes, the diesel. I understand that for 2013 they will no longer offer the diesel - thought that was weird.

    I didn't realize yours was exactly the same as the one I have so much seat time in, but I put this in the category of different strokes for different folks. I rent big vehicles like this when I need to use one (which is less than 1-2 times per year) and own vehicles with a "fun" character to drive the rest of the time.

    Obviously those with a boat to tow will not be able to apply the same criteria to their car purchases....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited August 2012
    It's the high center of gravity that is the nemesis of SUVs. No matter how well they corner, with so much weight up high you are much more prone to rolling it. It's really hard to flip a Miata. :P

    Part of the problem is those sticky tires.

    re: OFF ROAD---actually I'm wondering if a very low-geared automatic might not be better for crawling downhill (no chance of a stall, I mean)
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Not much chance of stalling a manual downhill - maybe uphill. ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh I know what you're saying but I was thinking of having to hit the brakes quickly on a downhill, or when you have to brake/gas...brake/gas, just inching your way over something downhill.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    It's really hard to flip a Miata.

    It would be even harder to flip a Tesla Model S. And if Porsche doesn't get their new Cayman out of the laboratory soon, my number (6,700) for the Model S may get called first. :P

    As for the SUV center of gravity thing, I'm sure I don't need to give you a lesson in physics, but its all related to CoG height, wheelbase and track that creates the angular pivot point (and stability). Our old Isuzu Trooper (5 speed manual, BTW), could probably have been tipped over by my daughter sticking her sippy cup too far out the window. But the Cayenne and X5 have managed to push the wheels out to the corners and a lot of their bulk is low in the chassis. on the other hand a Lexus GX is barely better than the Trooper and nothing made by Range Rover should be driven around a tight corner. I tested everything and within the SUV segment, the driving experiences can be night an day.

    BTW, my former boss bought one of the first Miata's sold in America. He never tipped it over, but did lose it into a ditch after hitting a rogue puddle and hydroplaning. They had a different stability problem, at least in that early 1st generation with something like 13" wheels.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I understand that for 2013 they will no longer offer the diesel - thought that was weird.

    I had not heard that. I was shown an ordering form that indicated the 2012 X5D would be produced until 11/2012 (vs. the gas 2013 models which started shipping in July). From what I've read, BMW is going to be unveiling a new line up of clean diesels at the LA auto show. Sounded like there is going to be at least one, if not two, X5 diesels in 2013. Of the diesels I drove - ML350 Bluetech, Audi Q7 TDI, Touareg TDI, and Cayenne - the X5 felt the most responsive. It would be weird indeed if they discontinued it, now that they are finally catching on in the states.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I tested everything and within the SUV segment, the driving experiences can be night an day

    My sister said the same thing, and she also tested everything in the segment with three rows. The BMW is head and shoulders above the rest for handling. Makes me wonder just how horrific driving a GX350 or an ML350 really is....

    ....but not enough to test drive them - they don't offer a manual transmission after all! :blush:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Interesting that your sister ended up with the X5, given the 3-row requirement. I think about 1 in 100 on the lots has the third row option and, unless we are talking very small pre-teens, it's on Obama's hit list for his anti-torture policy. We decided to keep our MDX, pass it down to our 17 year old daughter and stick with the two row version of the X5. My 14 year old daughter claimed my former 911 had a bigger back seat than the X5's 3rd row, but she grew a few inches in the 16 months since I sold it.

    The new ML isn't BMW quality steering and handling, but not nearly as bad as the Lexus GX. The Lexus LX was not test driven as it is way too feminine for my tastes. Only missing a flower vase on the dash.

    In checking out varous Porsche dealer websites, I am surprised that there are even more Cayenne V6 6-speed manuals popping up here and there. A least 3-4 within 300 miles of DC. I think Porsche's redesign of the Cayenne, in which it became much better looking, slightly bigger interior, shed 400+ pounds, etc. has made it the SUV of choice for someone that might consider rowing their own. It weighs nearly 900 lbs less than the X5 and over 1,300 lbs less than the Audi Q7. Audi, in spite of what others have claimed, is both a car and SUV fatso, still. No excuse for an A6 to weigh 4,000+ lbs.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of city/highway gas mileage does your sister's diesel actually get?
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