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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • kmh3kmh3 Member Posts: 35
    I just bought a 2012 Mazda 3 skyactiv, which comes with one of the best 6 spd automatics made today, and like many new automatics, get better mpg than its manual counterpart.

    It has a manual mode, that gets you most of what a manual can do, except it won't let you lug, stall, or go over redline, so the manual mode is more of a suggestion to the computer. But it does what you want perfectly, with quick crisp shifting. As long as you don't make a shifting mistake, you won't even realize it is protecting you.

    So it nets you most of the fun of a manual, and all of the benefits of an automatic, and none of the downside of a manual (mostly towing and getting stuck in stop and go traffic).

    So in summary, it is the best car I have ever had from a transmission persepctive, so I am sold on the new hi-tech auto trannies.

    Another thing is the new manuals have a new downside. The new cars have six gears and a really tall sixth gear for mpg, so you need to do a lot more shifting than with a sport geared 5. I switch from 6 to 5 to 4 and back constantly in freeway driving in rolling hills, and if I need the full power of the car, it can go all the way down to second, I think this would get very tedious in a manual. It is so nice to just mash on the gas, the car does a perfect four gear downshift (from 6th to 2nd), and you instantly get pushed back in your seat like an airplane taking off.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    How does a manumatic net most of the fun of a manual. Tapping a lever with you pinky is nothing like modulating the clutch, gas and stick in harmony?

    I suppose a lot of people think guitar hero is like playing a guitar though. ;)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Look not to the pedal, but the road, for the true driving soul Grashopper. :shades:
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,335
    "It has a manual mode, that gets you most of what a manual can do, except it won't let you lug, stall, or go over redline"

    Where's the fun in that?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2012
    Indeed I would agree, Again using the same logic, that kmh3 employs, why "manually" shift an AUTOMATIC at all? Ain't that why one got an automatic in the first place? ;)

    Or maybe there are a lot more Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F-1 circuit) fantasy/wanna be's than let on? :blush:
  • kmh3kmh3 Member Posts: 35
    By fun, I apparently meant something different than you.

    For me, fun means the ability to control the shift points so I get what I want out of the engine and car, and to provide value by doing so (meaning I can do it better than the car can).

    If you mean obtaining some visceral thrill out of the actual mechanics of manually shifting, then no, I could care less. And if this is what you want then I freely admit, a manual is for you.

    However in my case, if the auto tranny can shift better than I can, I am content to let it do so - because I would actually be subtracting value (mpg in this case) by attempting to control it myself.

    The times when I can do a better job than the auto are pretty much limited to twisty roads and rolling hills, where it won't downshift to get more engine braking, so I have to tell it to downshift.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Hmmm, a transmission that won't let you abuse or break it, gee, I wonder why manufacturers would EVER force such a horrible thing on us.... :P
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    If anyone really wants fully automatic - just take public transportation.

    No shifting, no steering, no braking. All done for you. And as a bonus - you can text all you want. :)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    I can get maybe 10% better than epa highway from an automatic on a long trip, but the last manual trans car I had could get 15% over its epa highway rating.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    Never can tell when you wish you could.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    edited July 2012
    . . .why "manually" shift an AUTOMATIC at all? Ain't that why one got an automatic in the first place?

    Spoken like a true flatlander. Choosing and holding an appropriate gear to avoid using the brakes on six-mile downhill grades is just one of many things that makes a manual better in the mountains. The other is when going uphill and approaching hairpin turns but wanting to maintain a particular gear through the turn and after. An automatic will shift whenever you get off the foot feed, whether you want it to or not. I can look up the road and see what gear I want -- not many automatics do that, at least not yet.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2012
    EXCEPT... while not like the Rockies (where I spent some time in my life) I routinely go to areas where the roads are @ 7,200 ft. But really... not much change, as far as the quote is concerned. I truly like the manual shift with the diesel (TDI), as the no fuel draw on LONG downgrades posts notoriously GREAT fuel mpg. If one can resist using the go peddle on the way down, the mpg gain more than makes up for the expenditure on the way up. But then that longer downgrade is app 110 miles (from 7200 ft to sea level) and it can be hard to resist.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    get better mpg than its manual counterpart

    Only in an EPA laboratory simulation test. Real world the manual does better.

    Fueleconomy.gov:
    hatch auto - 34.7
    hatch man - 39.5
    sedan auto - 36.7
    sedan man - 40.7

    Fairly significant 11-14% edge in the real world for the manual. ;)
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..Real world the manual does better..."

    In yesteryear it could but only if the driver paid highly consistent attention to the task of shifting into the gear ratio most optimal for a given driving circumstance/situation.

    MOST don't/didn't...

    Nowadays the new FE techniques used in an automatic, no even possible with a stick, tilt the FE well toward the automatic.....with.....no CONSTANT driver attention required.
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    Thanks for the glowing review of the skyactiv Mazda 3 with the 6-speed auto. In the unlikely event that I lose my left leg, I'll consider one.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What do you mean not possible? LOL

    Those are actual results.

    Manual wins. Game over.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2012
    Indeed, all are well documented and certified. Also IF they could do it with an automatic, they would have, but couldn't, so they didn't. (DSG's in VW's case- DSG's are a huge improvement in A/T's). The Taylor's took both a Jetta and Passat TDI's with 6 speed manual transmissions and set both 59 (68 mpg with specialty tires) and 84 mpg (aka 1 tank full) records on vehicles with EPA 40/43 H respectively.

    only 58.8 mpg? 09 Jetta TDI

    67.9 mpg SAME 09 Jetta TDI only different speciality tires

    84+ mpg 12 Passat TDI
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Those examples were from now not yesteryear. MT is more efficient, and it takes about as much constant attention as making sure to put one foot in front of the other while walking.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If anything manuals appeal to enthusiasts who drive faster and harder.

    And the results are still up to 14% better. Wow.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    You have no idea of the context of those examples on fueleconomy.gov, they are anecdotal and nothing more. And may have done things that damaged the drivetrain.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Even if you did, you would be no closer anyway. Most all of the information (mpg/C/H) is designed to see if one is in the ballpark anyway. The Taylor's context is in pretty good non technical narrative detail. It is probably dismissed out of hand for not "being in most folks ballpark".
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    In medicine we actually still call it a "Chauffeur's fracture", but the mechanism of the injury is different today.
  • victor23victor23 Member Posts: 201
    Just came across this thread, and found it pretty irrelevant, because the very future of driving is endangered.

    It became obvious in the last couple of years that cell phoning/texting/GPSing proliferated to ubiquity, became very common, and is perceived by the general population as a civil right. Banning of elctronic devices and of any other kind of distracted driving is technically/economically/politically impossible. The only alternative: ban discretionary driving. Autopilot driving is already technically feasible, and is being tested in some places. Dynamic cruise control, self parking, etc are becoming common. Just couple it with GPS, and voila. Psychologically, we are already conditioned to obey mandates (such as seat belts), and manufacturers are already obliged to build cars with the electronic stability control and a lot of other overkill safety provisions. Most part of driving enjoyment has already been taken away over decades by automatic trasmissions, cruise controls, GPS, etc.

    I am pretty certain that very soon it will be agaist law to drive yourself (manually) on the public roads. We will be obliged to activate GPS-based autopilot. Oh well, at least I will be able to drink legally.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    I can have fun with a manual, but I hold nothing against GPS and cruise control - the latter being one of the greatest innovations for anyone who is forced to plod along wide open smooth overly slow interstates.

    In many places in this sometimes backwards land, you won't be able to buy those drinks on a Sunday :shades:
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    Thanks, wwest for correctly pointing out that manuals require attentive driving and conversely/implicitly that automatics are better for inattentive driving.

    Your correct point is related to why I prefer a bunch of manual-transmission-drivers around me on the big-road, whether they are driving bigrigs or cars.

    It's also related to why insurance companies give discounts for manual-transmission cars. When there is real $ at stake you can be sure there is no mistake: manual transmission cars result in fewer and lower-$ claims than automatic transmission cars, for both collision & theft coverage. That's the only reason for the insurance 'discount' (aka "lower price" for manuals.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2012
    My datum point could be the exception that proves the rule, but I'd rather have a bunch of Gen Y kids driving and texting than be surrounded in traffic by two dozen clones of my sister. :D

    I've got family in town (the same sister, and no, I haven't offered to let her drive us around) so I don't have time to look up a lot of stats, but I'd like to see some links about the real costs of insurance for manuals vs automatics.

    Take a Mazda5 Sport, which comes in both flavors. There's no TCO difference in insurance costs.

    Bankrate.com says "When it comes to transmissions, cars with manual transmissions are generally more costly to insure than those with automatic transmissions.

    The reason for the higher rates again relates to the typical driver. Those behind the wheel of cars with higher horsepower and manual transmissions tend to drive more aggressively and become involved in more collisions."
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Cranks were downright dangerous. I don't think a manual transmission ever crippled someone. :P
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Tell that to the person on the receiving end of the accident caused by the driver who thought that knowing how to work a manual transmission meant he knew how to drive. ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I will if you can find one! :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    edited July 2012
    *raises hand* :P

    In fairness I wasn't crippled, just got a bad case of whiplash. But yeah, being able to work a stick does NOT mean you know how to drive. And in fact may be more likely you DON'T know how to drive like a normal person, just an imitation wannabe NASCAR fanboy.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You might be confusing causation with correlation, in that any incompetent person will crash eventually no matter what they are driving. If anything, I'd tend to think more mistakes are possible with an automatic, since manual transmissions easily stall the car when you do something wrong, but automatics work perfectly all the way through the laundromat. :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2012
    I find that with a stick, I tend to drive it more structurally, as it were. Some would characterize it as with,... more anticipation. In my case, one consequence is I tend to drive A/T's that way also.

    One real common example is there is not a day or driving situation that goes by without seeing an automatic equipped passenger vehicle brake in a seemingly illogical place, time, situation, etc.. Naturally, those very same folks wonder why, to complain why their brakes pads and rotors do not tend to last very long. In the worst case, tend to get into more accidents.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    You want to know why they braked in an illogical place? Probably because the car in front of them did. Keep going up the line and you'll probably find a BMW or Audi driver that doesn't know how to drive. But has a manual transmission. :shades:

    I tend to drive with a lot of anticipation and planning as well, but I drive automatics. However, I refuse to drive automatics without manual shift capability (and after my current car, I refuse to buy them without GOOD manual shift capability).

    Manuals might periodically be bought by people who know how to drive. But they are also bought by 1: People who are too cheap to buy an automatic, or safety equipment, and probably too cheap to do regular maintenance. And 2: The guy who wants to feel like Tanner Faust or Jimmy Johnson but has the driving skill of Stevie Wonder
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2012
    There can be NO doubt there are those occasional BMW/Audi, etc drivers and with manual transmissions. I also have run into them, or more technically tried not to. But then again most of that demographic opt for A/T's ! :P . So still the majority ARE "other than (M/T)".
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Not if they want to be their favorite race driver...or worse, out BMW the BMW owner in the next cubicle.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    the insurance info is out there if you want it, it's no secret, the companies are happy to quote you for whatever vehicle, whatever engines & transmissions are offered.

    maybe you can identify a vehicle for which the insurance is more for a manual than for automatic.

    (sometimes the manual shift will imply a whole wacked-out boo-ya track-performance package which is totally unavailable on the automatic/candy-posterior of the vehicle, and that wouldn't be a good apples-to-candy-apples comparison, would it?)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    edited July 2012
    I drove both my slushbox cars today, shifting for myself. Seems the reaction time on both cars is maybe a half second - not too bad. The old car with its very mechanical and direct linkage shifts just as quick as the modern car (which I assume has some kind of electronic control). I know I could do it faster, but I can be an abusive manual driver - I'll force it to make the fastest shift possible. I suspect a lot of manual drivers, especially the cheapskates, aren't any faster than the shift for yourself slushbox - they just keep it in a high gear more.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Whenever I'm driving an automatic, I feel like I should be reading a magazine to pass the time. :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    Do you move the lever yourself? I don't shift via the pedal. It's still slower than a good real manual, of course, but maybe not a complete disaster. I've seen some really slow manual drivers too.

    You had a fintail once, was it an automatic? You probably remember they need to be shifted manually sometimes just to eek out more speed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No my fintail was a 4-speed---"4 on the tree". It was a really nice car, and never gave me a spot of trouble that I can remember. I commuted in it every day from New York City to Montvale NJ over the GW Bridge.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    You're obviously driving the wrong kind of transmission. You need to be driving a Mazda SkyActiv-Drive automatic, or a Volkswagen DSG, or maybe Ford's DCT (though a toggle switch is a poor substitute for paddles of a proper slap shifter). Chevy's automatic isn't terrible either, though it's a little slower. Stay away from Hyundai's, it doesn't listen (well, it does, but there's a reasonable chance it'll ignore you).
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    the insurance info is out there if you want it, it's no secret, the companies are happy to quote you for whatever vehicle, whatever engines & transmissions are offered.

    Exactly - I'm sort of hoping someone lurking here is an agent and could run some numbers for their area or is friends with an agent who wouldn't mind checking.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited July 2012
    Make sure whoever does it compares similar-powered models.

    Often an auto-equipped car will be de-tuned. The Miata automatic makes less HP than the manual does. They tune it for low-end torque so the slush box can move out of its own way.

    167hp for the manual, 158hp for the slushbox, on the 08s.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Been there, done that--it feels like I'm driving an old cassette deck, pushing buttons. I'm sorry, I really tried, but it's boring. All i can do with a DSG is stomp on the gas and scare myself to make the time go faster.

    Perhaps if it was a Ferrari, I could get over this. :P
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    What you need is a good solid SkyActiv Mazda3, complete with 6 speed SkyActive-Drive transmission with a shifter that actually moves in the RIGHT DIRECTION. :shades:

    If that feels like a cassette deck to you, then only an F1 will help.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited July 2012
    The reason for the higher rates again relates to the typical driver. Those behind the wheel of cars with higher horsepower and manual transmissions tend to drive more aggressively and become involved in more collisions."

    But is that really driver-related, or is that the nature of the car available with a manual skewing the comparison?

    Rather than looking at the whole industry, I would like to see just comparisons of insurance rates between manual- and auto- cars with otherwise identical powertrains.

    Did anyone notice that GM recently held its "autonomous vehicles symposium"? By 2020 a significant number of GM cars will drive themselves.

    *shudder*

    The autonomous ones won't have stick shifts of course, so I guess as long as I stick to my rule of "manual-shift or nothing at all" I should be safe from this new incursion on the ability of drivers to do the driving. If I ever get old enough that I would rather have a computer driving my car than me, just shoot me....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Okay, we need to find a car with the same specs other than the transmissions, and get a rate for the same driver and see if there's any difference.

    Don't you have a longish commute, or maybe I'm thinking of another poster who drove an Echo? Wouldn't that be the place for a self driving car? And maybe going across the Plains states.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    Okay, we need to find a car with the same specs other than the transmissions, and get a rate for the same driver and see if there's any difference.

    That shouldn't be too hard. Off the top of my head, I know that the Subaru's Impreza, Forester, and Outback all fall into that category (for 2.5i and Premium models).
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Yeah but Subies don't get bought by agressive drivers (outside of WRXes anyway). Probably better off comparing one of the Mazda3 Touring trims, they're all either manual or automatic.

    Or possibly the Focus SE.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    I suppose the looks of the new camaro are growing on me.
    GovtMotors finally put together a fifth-gen camaro option package I really like, an RPO blast from the past. the 1LE - a bunch of gofast bits from the ZL1, closer-gear ratios, shorter final drive ratio, no blower and no magna-ride. $40k. :shades:
    and for the 1LE, automatic transmission *not available*, thank you.
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