The Future Of The Manual Transmission

morin2

My last Dart had manual "3 on the tree". I doubt we'll ever see that again. Or its slant-6.

bpizzuti

Why, what advantage would a slant 6 have over a 1.4L MultiAir or a 2.0L SkyActiv or any of the other engine choices we're seeing?

Sticking a shifter on the tree or wheel, on the other hand, yes I do see an advantage to that. No one makes a car that fits three across in the front anymore...

igozoomzoom

"I can't believe Honda is gong to a CVT for the Accord - ugh. At least it's gratifying to hear that they will still offer a stick shift with several 4-cyl trims. (and not the V6 coupe? Has anyone actually checked that?)"

That really sucks! Add it to the list with the Nissan Altima, Subaru Legacy and Suzuki Kizashi...cars that I wouldn't touch with 10-ft pole! Although I prefer a manual, I would rather have a conventional A/T anyday over a freakin' CVT!!!

I used to travel a lot for my job and rented a car at least three weeks out of each month. After a few times behind the wheel of the Sentra, Altima and Versa with CVTs, I refused to rent another Nissan. From that point on, I told the rental agencies that I wouldn't do business with them if they couldn't guarantee me something OTHER than a Chrysler/Dodge or Nissan! You know something is VERY WRONG in a world where I would breathe a sigh of relief when they handed me the key to a Mitsubishi Galant or Chevy Impala...

ruking1

Evidently you are not in a minority.

CVT's, for whatever reasons are not being well received. I have heard some folks saying they dislike the so called "rubber band effect". I am guessing that is a big reason why MB ML 350 BlueTec has a so called "hybrid" A/T "CVT" 7 speed. For whatever reasons, they do not go into any "competitive marketing and sales" description. Indeed it is buried in the references of the fact that it is a hybrid A/T CVT.

What is telling or perhaps "the writing on the wall" is MB perhaps has one of the best A/T's around. Dare I say bullet proof.

So the real "driver" for the switch from so called "slush box" automatics to CVT automatics is first and foremost the regulatory environment, (aka better mpg) and costs, obviously.

So if they can not tweak the slush box A/T to do "better," the next best is the switch to CVT. If folks either complain or more realistically do not BUY a car because of the CVT, then they will have to as a minimum make a CVT act more like a slush box A/T. In any case, it appears that it is the slush box A/T as currently designed, whose days are numbered. As evidenced by the VW line with 6 speed MANUAL transmission offerings, an increasing but still minority of folks will STILL buy (6 speed manual transmissions)

stickguy

I have never driven any of the Nissans with a CVT, but considering the Altima is one of the top selling cars recently, there must be plenty of people that don't really notice, or care.

I can't stand most normal ATs anyway, so I am more willing to give the CVT benefit of the doubt.

I have driven the Subaru recently on a couple of test drives ( a 2012 OB and a 2013 Legacy with an upgraded version of the CVT).

Don't remember any impression of the OB, but I only drove about 1/2 mile before turning it over to my wife. I did drive the Legacy a decent amount (3 miles under varying conditions) and it seemed fine to me. if anything, I liked that it was not always lugging and needing a major prod to get it to downshift!

I really had to pay attention to notice the difference over a normal AT (accelerating fairly hard from a stop no a back road), and it ran up to about 4k and sat there. Different, but actually very smooth acceleration, and the engine was not at all obtrusive.

overall, I can live with it, and if it helps the OB get noticeably better MPG, even a better idea!

bpizzuti

Some manufacturers do seem to have been able to "tweak" the "slushbox." Mazda comes to mind, then again the SkyActiv tranny feels anything but "slushy." The DCTs seem to be a more popular way to go, maybe because of how CVTs feel, but as it turns out, that directness that a DCT offers is turning into a disadvantage, because the shifts are rougher at low speed.

The funny thing is that both are being substituted for the old "automatic" transmission but a DCT is really closer to a manual than a slushbox. Whereas a CVT, despite how quickly it can shift between fake gears, works better for the "put it in gear and leave it alone" crowd.

ruking1

I think in some ways these replacement products are really the "quiet ongoing revolution". To me, it remains a mystery (probably on purpose, as it probably does SERVE a purpose) as to the real numbers and percentages.

I was able to dig out the 20% manual transmission numbers, passenger vehicle fleet wise. Default would put all manner of A/T's @ 80%. What the percentages of CVT, hybrid CVT (whatever that is or means) slush box, DSG, tiptronic, etc remains a mystery.

xwesx

I have driven plenty of vehicles with automatic transmissions, and I thought the CVT in the Legacy was a very good automatic. Granted, I only had it for twenty minutes, but it was enough to leave me feeling it as a big improvement over the 4EAT it replaced. Were I in the market for an automatic, I would have no qualms with it.

In contrast, I was not overly impressed with the dual-clutch automatic in the Ford Fiesta I rented a couple months ago. Generally, it was fine enough, if not a little strange in that it sounded like a manual when it shifted, but it did so without any workout from my left leg. However, in low speed situations (5-10 mph), it was just obnoxious. I think one could end up with low-grade whiplash from it were they to spend enough time in parking garages....

dudleyr

Noticed that Dodge Dart gets 2 mpg better with manual vs dsg.

bpizzuti

I also notice that so far they've tuned that DSG to be as automatic-like as possible, and the slow shifting may be losing it an MPG or two.

I'm not sure that's the finalized EPA number or just an estimate.

nippononly

I thought it was 3 mpg? 36 vs 39? (going by memory here)

ruking1

Yes I think after a while or driving different cars, most folks understand that each transmission be it slush box, DSG, CVT, hybrid CVT, 5 speed, 6 speed manual or 3,4,5,6,7,8 speed A/T has its own way. Indeed to expect all A/T's / M/T's, etc to be similar to the same, can be setting ones self up for disappointment.

Over the years of driving A/T's, the one that took me the longest to adjust to was a seemingly ubiquitous A/T in a 04 Honda Civic. It just seemed to be down or upshifting, as if it could not make up its mind. So for a while, I would downshift to third speed to give it some umpf so it would go past the uptown shifting area. Finally the thing that really happened was I just became ok with its indecision. For the way I drive, this new way in effect posts the best mpg.

bpizzuti

Some people consider all of those non-clutch-pedal-having transmissions to be A/Ts, which is where things get messy given how different the designs are. A DCT and a CVT drive VERY differently from each other, and VERY differently from a traditional slushbox.

Mr_Shiftright

Speaking of which, VW better get its DSG problems under control. They may have to fire their suppliers.

xwesx

They rightly should be considered A/Ts, because they are. I think what gets messy is simply the expectation a driver develops, an assumption, that what that person is used to experiencing is what that person should experience with every A/T driven.

M/Ts have their own set of differences between models, and we tend to critique them on our expectations as well. I know that clutch and shifter feel are paramount in my initial impressions. Plus, the sound of the engine plays heavily into the way I drive the car. If I am in a car that muffles that sound too much, I tend to feel less comfortable driving it (regardless of transmission type), while other people feel that the quieter the cabin, the better.

It is not that there is anything "wrong" with the car; its only shortcoming may be that it is different from what I expected. :sick:

volkov

But the differences in MT vehicles can be adjusted more easily by the driver although it can take time. One is stuck with the quirks of an auto be it dsg cvt or classic slush. That may be why people get such strong opinions about the various options - there is nothing you can do other than accept it. With the MT you can adjust the pedal and hand timing to get the feel you want from the vehicle if not the controls.

xwesx

True, and yet they made that bed themselves and then complain about sleeping in it. :P

bpizzuti

So they don't act like A/Ts, they don't drive like A/Ts, they aren't built like A/Ts, they don't shift like A/T's but they are anyway? Why?

This should be entertaining. :shades:

xwesx

Yes, they're automatic transmissions. A/T is an abbreviation of "automatic transmission," correct? There are different types of automatic transmissions, but their goal is one in the same: Change ratios in an automated fashion to transfer power from the engine to the wheels in order to propel the vehicle. How is any transmission that accomplishes this task not an automatic?

stickguy

I know that this debate has been had here before, but I consider a DSG to just be an AT also. Because it shifts on it's own.

manual means manual, that the driver has to tell it to change gears.

I would however consider an "auto stick" box to be a manual, even with no clutch pedal., since the driver has to pick the gears and change between them. so call that an AC!

bpizzuti

Nope, the clutch is automatic. By the definition you guys are using, if any part of it is automated, then it's an "automatic" transmission. Which is utterly false, but if it gives you warm fuzzies, go right ahead.

stickguy

disagree on that point. Whether the clutch is manual or assisted, it isn't an automatic trans if it can't shift itself.

hoosiergrandad

Where do the old "fluid drive" cars fit into to this debate? .......and weren't there "Vac" shifters installed on some '30's vintage cars ( Cord was one) where you preselected a gear and completed a shift whenever you decided to stomp on the clutch............... and what of the manual trans cars that would shift into overdrive "automatically" when you let off the throttle? What about 2 speed axle cars that let you change ranges clutchlessly?

Just here to cause trouble, and enjoy the strife.

stever

Don't forget the late 60s VW Bugs that you shifted once, when you hit 50 mph or so. That was an oddball. Or maybe I'm remembering it wrong? I do remember sitting in the back seat of one when I was ~17 wondering if we were going to get blown off the Golden Gate Bridge.

kyfdx

Honda had the same thing in the mid-late '70s..

Hondamatic... Two speeds... no clutch.. 1st took you up to about 30 mph, I think... then you let off the gas and moved the lever to 2nd..

bpizzuti

Is a one-speed transmission a manual or an automatic?

And if someone presses the clutch pedal on an automatic transmission in a forest without an enthusiast present does it make a noise? :shades:

nippononly

that can shift for itself is an automatic. That is the very definition of automatic. I can't believe there is any argument around that - surely not folks?

Manual, from the Latin for "by hand", refers to a human moving the gears. Even in a DSG, a human doesn't move the gears, they just flick a button and hope that the computer makes the gear-change they asked for. ;-)

hoosiergrandad

In the spirit of compromise, how about a "semi-automatic" category?

stever

Why not "semi-manual?"

Seems like the more you learn about something, the less you know.

srs_49

Or "Manu-matic"?

bpizzuti

The only true manual transmission is on a bicycle.

colin_l

Oh, really now? :P

I do have a 'manual transmission' on all my bicycles, but eventually I will have at least one with servo-controlled shifting! :shades:

qbrozen

that can shift for itself is an automatic. That is the very definition of automatic. I can't believe there is any argument around that - surely not folks?

I think not so much argument as confusion. Does your category mean any car that CAN shift for itself, even if there is a mode in which it WON'T shift for itself?

And, by the way, you still flick a button "by hand." And some manumatics don't have buttons... you have to do it with the gear lever.

lemmer

Is there some rule that binds us to fitting transmissions into two neat little categories?

qbrozen

Not in my book.

bpizzuti

Exactly, people have been drawing these lines in a very arbitrary manner. Here's real life:

* A manual transmission is one with a clutch pedal - They tend to be the most "manual" even though some of them automatically shift into overdrive.
* An automatic transmission is a traditional torque converter transmisson - always has been, even when you could "manually' shift into "L" or lock out overdrive
* A CVT is a CVT - They don't ever "shift" except manually, normally they "vary" instead.
* A dual clutch transmission is a dual clutch transmission - They don't necessarily have to have automated shifting.

Trying to further lump them into the traditional "manual" and "automatic" transmissions is a recipe for both confusion and annoyance.

cdnpinhead

. . . a recipe for both confusion and annoyance.

Excellent description of the whole discussion, along with many others. Some thrive in such an environment.

Many don't.

dudleyr

I see that the manual take rate for the FRS is 56%.

Not too shabby.

andys120

I see that the manual take rate for the FRS is 56%.

Not too shabby.

Given the nature of the car, I'd say that's a bit on the low side but what's the alternative a TC A/T with paddle shifting or a DCT (I see someone hitting shift paddles in the TV ad)?

nippononly

I would love to actually find a dealer with an FRS in stock, so I can check it out. :sick:

nippononly

I think not so much argument as confusion. Does your category mean any car that CAN shift for itself, even if there is a mode in which it WON'T shift for itself?

And, by the way, you still flick a button "by hand." And some manumatics don't have buttons... you have to do it with the gear lever.

My category means any car that CAN shift for itself, yes. AUTOmatic. auto = doing it for itself.

In a manual you move the gears by hand, the gears are not moved by a human in any of the various DSG/DCT/TC slushie variations, and of course in a CVT there are no gears at all. ;-)

bpizzuti

In your world, a manual transmission that automatically drops a gear when you floor it is an automatic transmission. Think about that.

qbrozen

Does such a transmission even exist??

nippononly

I've never witnessed such a transmission but yes, if the transmission will change gears without me changing them it is an automatic.

volkov

Yep, that's automatic in my book.
A manual cannot change the gear ratio without input from the driver. Everything else is a variation on auto.

bpizzuti

Then by your definition, very soon everything will be some form of automatic.

Wake up and smell the future guys. Life isn't that simple anymore.

dudleyr

The future seems boring and lazy without manuals. I will enjoy the present while I can.

bpizzuti

A well designed DCT in manual mode can be lots of fun, and offers a lot more flexibility than any mere pedal operated single-clutch transmission.

A CVT offers a wider choice of gear ratios than any manual-clutch transmission possibly can.

Mr_Shiftright

they will have to pry the gearshift from my cold dead hand.

nippononly

very soon everything will be some form of automatic.

That is the fear, yes. But not in sport models, not while I am still buying new cars. That is the hope. ;-)