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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    I'm sure you can price any modern AT and get the same, or worse, nosebleed pricing. You want to pay for a new 8 speed Audi hi-tech box?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I'm sure that would be fine...if I was willing to pay for an Audi in the first place.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2012
    Exactly---it's when your Benz transmission and your Ford Focus transmission cost the same that it hurts.

    Also, has anyone mentioned that non-sequential shifting isn't so hot on a DSG? (because you may be activated the same gearbox for both gears that you've selected rather than the second gearbox). Never tried to do this yet, but apparently you can really slow down the shift.

    Not sure under what circumstances you'd choose to do this with a DSG though.

    I do it all the time with my manual 6-speed.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Audi's new 8 speed is a CVT. It has 8 'gears' programmed simply to make it seem more like a normal transmission.

    CVTs are pretty lame to drive, but quite efficient.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Pretty lame" doesn't even BEGIN to describe the awful experience of driving a car with a CVT, IMO.

    With all the variations of DSGs available, it amuses me how hard they are trying to add expensive ways to mimic the simple action of a manual transmission.....when you could just actually GET a manual transmission! :D

    But alas, they still can't get there - from the inability to skip gears as you shift up or down (as Shifty mentioned) to the lousy behavior many of them have in stop and go traffic, the purity of the manual is often imitated, never duplicated. ;-)

    As for "getting it", "it" is just the visceral quality of controlling the engine and interacting with the machine to make it move down the road. There are less and less people that "get it" as each year goes by, but beware: when the day arrives in the not-too-distant future that cars are completely self-guided and we are all just passengers behind the wheel, it won't be the manual transmission that abetted the death of the driving experience, it will be the automatic - automotive self-guidance can't occur with a stick shift and three pedals.

    I have been cruising the used car listings lately and I'm gratified to see that at least in some models, most of the cars out there are manual-trans. WRX is one of them, but GTI is another. Miatas too, although even there a distressing number of automatics appear....but I'm pinning my hopes on the future of sporty cars, which I'm beginning to think will still be offered with a manual for as long as I will continue to buy cars.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,617
    edited June 2012
    . . .cars are completely self-guided and we are all just passengers behind the wheel. . .

    What is this "wheel" thing you speak of? No need for such an anachronism in the electrically-driven self-guided personal transportation pods that are closer than many of us would like to think, but that many others will probably line up to buy lease.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Sure, but where and how often do you get a drive in a visceral way? Highway on/off ramps? Go out of your way for a twisty road?

    I ride a sportbike. It has far more of everything you mentioned in your post, and goes faster than everything on 4 wheels, for half the price of your average compact car. (Mine in particular was $11,200 in 2001. It's still kill-you-in-an-instant fast.)

    Day in and day out, there just isn't enough need or opportunity to rejoice in the small perks of a manual transmission, and there are many, many opportunities to enjoy the convenience of a DSG.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    after decades of DD with a stick I moved to an AT about 4 months ago. And one of my criteria was, it had to have a manumatic function (so I could at least "pretend" to shift!) In this case, a geartronic Volvo.

    so far, I have used it once. And that was not to actually shift. i was curious as to what gear I was in, so I pushed the lever over to check! then put it back in D.

    I got the car to teach my daughter on (the stick was just not working out...). But, mostly I use it for around town errands/short hops, so like you say, no real situations where having a stick matters (from a performance standpoint).

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Ah, I've got the typical instrument cluster info VAG puts in: D1, M1, S1. Drive, Manual (drive pulled to the right side for manual operation), Sport.

    The car frequently selects D5 for 35-40 mph tooling around town but I never hear the engine lugging. I've used manual mode once, just to verify it worked on the test drive. I've read that it upshifts at 6,000 rpm in manual mode; that's kind of self-defeating since sport mode shifts at ~6,500.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    If such a great percentage of time is better with a dsg (because of the inconvenience of shifting in traffic), why even bother with a sporty vehicle. Get an automatic Avalon. If comfort, smoothness and convenience is the goal, then that is the vehicle you want.

    My favorite excuse for not buying a manual in a sporty car is "I have to drive in traffic all the time"

    If somebody is in traffic all the time, then why have a sporty car. Buy a Prius for the commute and a miata for the weekends. That automatic 5 series (or whatever) does you no good in a traffic jam.

    Few people want to admit they are commuters and buy a commuter car.

    BTW - test drove the Scion FRS last weekend - wow. Nice shifting excellent handling (salesman was hanging on for dear life). Good car for a stick shift. Nice fun car - and cheap enough that you don't feel guilty when you hang out the tail.

    Only complaint I have is the engine did not seem like it really wanted to rev. In fairness I did not go beyond about 5k since the engine was brand new and the car had about 30 miles on it. Maybe once broken in and at higher revs it will loosen up.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I am not so sure I understand about all this talk about "getting it". I've preferred manual transmissions my whole life. But the gap has become really narrow. Back when I started driving in the 80s, a car's personality often depending upon having a manual transmission. Something like a '70s Z car went from being a great inexpensive sports car with a manual to being a boring piece of junk with an automatic. Now even most sports cars are almost as good with an automatic. Yeah, you lose a little bit of control, but really not much else.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ironically, it is my outlier position that the massive increases in power in modern cars have actually diminished the joy of driving a stickshift far more than merely the problems of modern traffic or oppressive speed laws.

    When a car has only 100 HP you *have* to use a manual transmission "O&I"---often, and intelligently.

    Now, with numbers like 500 ft lbs of torque you don't even need half the gears---1st, 3rd and 5th would be just fine for a new Corvette or Mustang. You'd hardly miss the other 2. :P

    Yes, yes I KNOW....NASCAR powerhouses use a manual transmission....but we aren't on the track and don't need 750HP.

    There is nothing...NOTHING..that is more fun than driving a 100 HP small sports car on a twisty road.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I agree. It is more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

    Funny what can make a car feel fast. A small convertible that is low to the ground, noisy and needs to be flogged always feels much faster than a large boat that isolates you from the experience (given that their times are about the same).

    My 1900 lb Scirocco felt plenty peppy with a 10.0 time to 60. That was a fun car - miss manual steering.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    The Scirocco was my first car. I was actually thinking about it when I wrote my last post. Great car with a manual, dismal with an automatic.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It is more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow

    Soon we may have no choice - often you only see a manual with the base engine. At least the "base" engine is improving in most cases. Still wish you could get more options with manuals, though.

    Automakers are almost forcing people up with packaging.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    My first car was a Mazda RX-7 GS, 110 horsepower and 2300 pounds. It was a dog. Every car I've owned since then, even a lowly Dodge Neon Sport, could put the Mazda in its rear view mirror. The Mazda handled well, but that was due to weight moreso than suspension sophistication.

    Anyway. I agree with Shifty in that high powered modern cars often remove the need for manual transmissions. But all the sophisticated onboard electronics do other things, too. The Nissan GT-R is an easy, and probably over-referenced example. It's tremendously heavy, and in the 80s or 90s we would have looked at curb weight alone, ~3850 pounds, and felt sure that this was no sportscar.

    But it is.

    Anyway, I have no real nostalgia for manual transmissions or old, underpowered cars. I understand those that do. But we won't be seeing manual transmissions in new cars for much longer.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Did that RX-7 have a stick? It did 120 mph - not so sure about the Neon.

    It probably was a dog with a 3 speed automatic.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    It was a 5 speed manual, as was the Neon. It would in fact barely do an indicated 120mph after roughly an eternity at WOT in 5th gear, as I discovered as a teen on rural Kansas roads. :blush:

    My Audi is the first automatic new car I've bought (6spd dsg). My wife's Suzuki is a 5spd slushbox, and I've had a number of musclecars with automatics. My other cars have all been 5 speed manuals: '99 Impreza RS, '95 M3, '03 Evo.

    The missing 3rd pedal is not missed.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    You guys have great taste. My second car (after the Scirocco) was an '84 RX-7 GS. Another car that was a joy with a manual and a dog with an automatic.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited June 2012
    There is nothing...NOTHING..that is more fun than driving a 100 HP small sports car on a twisty road.

    Hear hear! Absolutely right on point. Of course, there isn't really anything you can still buy new that has power in that range, more's the pity. My Yaris with the "sport package" (tee hee, although it handles really well for an econobox) has 106 hp, and that is absolutely a hoot to drive down up and down canyons, which I'm lucky enough to get to do as part of my commute a couple of days a week. Yes, to whomever posed the question: I DO go out of my way to find twisty roads to have fun on, on a regular basis. :-)

    If I could fit well in a Miata that would be my next purchase, but since I can't I'm very interested in the new FRS. Manual shift, of course. Interesting note: the VP of Scion made a statement to the effect that they expect half or more of the first-year sales of the FRS to be manual shift. :-)

    Edit...my RX-7 was an '87, and that car was a joke with the automatic because of the way the rotary develops its power. But with a manual, there just weren't words for how great it was - like being strapped to the back of a jet engine. Too bad mine didn't make it.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If I could fit well in a Miata

    Insider's tip: remove the dead pedal. And/or to the other pedal mods to gain an inch or so.

    I actually modified mine very carefully, it sits about 1/2" farther back now. Every little bit helps. It did leave a small gap between the carpeted mats and the dead pedal, but no one sees it.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    There is also the foamectomy of the seat.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, but that's more for clearance for autocross, since a helmet is required.

    Headroom is fine on my PRHT, and I have a long torso. I think you need a couple of inches above a helmet, though, so if I tracked it I'd need to do that.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    edited June 2012
    Everybody seems to fit differently. I am 6'2" and I could barely drive my '99 Miata with the top up. My head was smushed into the roof even with the seat all the way back and fully reclined.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited June 2012
    For my 93 I put spacers under the front of the seat track, so my knees would bend more, and I had thigh support.

    That and moving the dead pedal back worked.

    Hard for Mazda to make it bigger without adding a lot of weight, I think. 3 of the 4 cylinders are behind the front axle center line.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    An unlikely hero?

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/26/2013-hyundai-elantra-gt-first-drive-review/

    Luckily, the six-speed manual transmission is well-sorted and a friendly companion for lots of shifting action, with a good amount of feedback built into the clutch and a throttle that hasn't been tuned to deliver all of its power at initial tip-in. We've driven some truly terrible manual setups from Korea, Inc. before (Kia Forte, anyone?), so this more engaging setup is a welcome change of pace. If manuals are your thing, you'll be happy to know that you can still spec the stick in even the highest of Elantra GT trims.


    That's nice because with a lot of Korean cars you only get the base model in a manual.
  • mazerunnermazerunner Member Posts: 13
    This thread is depressing. I am very dissatisfied with my 2009 MT Hyundai Sonata (too many mechanical problems) and am looking for a new car to replace it. I would really like to buy another manual, but it seems that the only cars I can choose from in the same class are the Accord, Sonata (which I won't buy), Optima and maybe whatever Ford's equivalent is. Slim pickings.

    I really hope the 2013 Toyota Camry has a manual since they took it out of the 2012 models. :(
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    No manual in the camry.

    Mazda is a choice with the 6. And VW you can do the Passat or Jetta.

    Subaru still has one in some models of the Legacy.

    not sure about the new Altima.

    but yeah, in the mid size class, much slimmer pickings.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    The choices for a mid-size sedan with a manual transmission are few and will be even fewer for 2013....

    2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS- 6MT standard- dropped for 2013
    2012 Kia Optima LX- 6MT standard- dropped for 2013
    2012 Ford Fusion S - 6MT standard- 2013 redesign- no MT offered

    2012 Subaru Legacy- 2.5i & 2.5i Prem 6MT avail- 2013- only 2.5i (Base) 6MT
    2012 Toyota Camry & Nissan Altima Sedan- no MT options
    2012 Honda Accord- LX & EX (cloth) - 5MT standard- 2013 redesign- ???

    It looks like your best bets are-

    2012 Mazda6 i Sport - 6MT standard - same for 2013
    2012 Suzuki Kizashi - S & GTS Sport FWD - 6MT standard
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    2012 Passat has a stick on the S, SE and TDI. I believe the 2013 will continue that, but can't swear to it.

    The Mazda or Passat would be my choices.

    Or, go slightly smaller. The Jetta and the Dodge Dart both offer a manual (the Dart I think in all trim lines). Not quite as big, but these are still large for compacts, so only marginally smaller inside than a Sonata.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    Sorry about that, I forgot the Passat. The S & SE have a 5MT (even the SE w/ Nav & Sunroof) and the SE TDI has a 6MT.

    I would choose the Mazda, most likely, especially given the incentives available. But I'd also give the Kizashi a long, hard look...
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited July 2012
    That's nice because with a lot of Korean cars you only get the base model in a manual.

    Lots of Japanese models too. I have been looking with some interest at the new Mazda CX-5, but have now discovered that just like so many Mazdas these days (Mazda5, Mazda3 SkyActiv, etc), the only way to get the stick is in the entry-level stripper trim, so if I want a factory moonroof I'm out of luck.

    Mazda has unfortunately begun to take the attitude that so many automakers take now: that the only people who buy stick shifts are the cheapskates who want the cheapest model possible. :-(

    Still, it's nice to see from the discussion above that VW is hanging in there with sticks in so many models and trim levels. Just wish they were all 6-speeds. ;-)

    And at least Mazda offers sticks in the dedicated sport models like Miata and Speed3.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    The 2013 Accord will have a 6 speed manual in 3 trims (lx, Sport and EX) for 2013. The order sheet is already out with the trims. So they are actually improving their manual offering instead of cutting back.

    The Fusion will also have a manual transmission for 2013.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    right... but this is the 4 cylinder base engine only, correct?

    there hasn't been a MT accord v6 in a really, really long time.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    not since the prior body style (so '07 at the latest). Just did not sell in the sedan (The coupe I believe went into the current style).

    a number of the other options are the same way. Sticks only on the 4 cyl.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The CX-5 engine is kinda mousey, too.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,463
    But, but... it's SkyActiv!!

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  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    Thanks for the 2013 Accord info.

    According to the Ford website, the 2013 Fusion S, SE and Titanium all have a 6-speed automatic standard. The description of each engine, 2.5L, 1.6L Ecoboost and 2.0L Ecoboost also state that they come with a 6-speed SelectShift Automatic standard.
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    The "Build Your Own" option on Ford's website gives the option of a 1.6L EcoBoost mated to a manual transmission on the SE model only. Now, whether you could actually get one......
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Where? I'm not seeing that.

    FYI, as far as I know, all trims of the Dodge Dart will have a manual option.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited July 2012
    The CX-5 engine is kinda mousey, too.

    Yes, absolutely, which is why one (me! :-P) wants the manual more than usual in this model. And the highway mileage goes from 32 to 35 mpg in this one when you go from the automatic to the manual.

    I'm used to not having the stick available with the AWD (although that sucks too), but there's absolutely no good reason to discontinue the stick above the base trim in the FWD unless your only goal in offering the manual was the rather disingenuous one of being able to offer a super-duper-low "starting price".

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    I just got the brochure for the new (updated) 2013 Sube outback. They still have the stick available on the base and premium models (just not the limited). So you can get a pretty well loaded model with a 6 speed, just not the leather, etc. one.

    interesting is the MPG ratings (and I really wonder what the real world difference will be) but the stick is about 21-27, and the CVT is 24-30. Pretty big spread (all for the 4 cyl of course)

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yeah, makes you wonder what in the heck they are doing wrong with the ratios of the manual that the CVT can do so much better, even on the highway. Truth is though that they have cheaped out on developing a better manual for that model, and it is still a 5-speed isn't it?

    Me, I just got done reading a quick blurb about the 2013 Altima, in which the manual has finally been put to rest for good, second among the major Japanese midsizers after Toyota killed the manual in the Camry. And this article (was in Automobile mag, I think?) points out just as they all do how unpleasant the CVT is in use, and in this case is one of the few negative things to say about the car.

    Which is pretty much how I feel about the CVTs in the Impreza and Outback after driving them both. Yuck. I don't know how anybody, even an ardent FAN of automatics, puts up with CVTs.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Yeah, makes you wonder what in the heck they are doing wrong with the ratios of the manual that the CVT can do so much better, even on the highway.

    that's such an easy question to answer! :)

    the cvt has a much wider range than a 5 or even 6 speed manual. it turns fewer rpm cruising on the highway, especially over 65, and it will select a low rpm for cruising in town too.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    the couple of times I drove the Subaru CVT it did not bother me. Though I tend to find most ATs annoying to drive anyway. It does the job, and saves on gas, so i can live with that.

    I will have my wife drive it a bit more before we decide, but I doubt she will ever really notice.

    Oh, and someone asked, but the manual trans is a 6 speed.

    and if they CVT operation really bothers you, it comes with paddle shifters to manually control 6 pre-defined ratios (if you would rather have it act like a less-efficient slushbox AT)

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The shifting is a little too crisp to be considered "slushbox" unless it's one of Mazda's. It's very quick. Of course, it also defeats the entire purpose of a CVT.

    Face it, CVTs are the new slushboxes. Unless someone comes up with a "manual" mode for a CVT that will let you control ratio with a lot more granularity than 6 fake "gears."
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    CVTs are replacing slushboxes in all lower torque applications and moving upstream. I doubt they will be able to handle a fullsize truck or SUV's torque in the near term, so don't write the slushbox's obituary just yet..
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited July 2012
    Is Nissan's VQ 3.5 still the most powerful engine to be mated to a CVT? And that one is at 250+ hp right? So CVTs will cover most of the lower-priced market before too much longer.

    Then automated manuals will cover the upper half, as CVTs are not perceived to be sophisticated enough for the near-lux and luxury set. Did you see all the bad press Infiniti got from every single review I read (had to be at least a half dozen) about the CVT they dropped in that new JX model?

    I can't believe Honda is gong to a CVT for the Accord - ugh. At least it's gratifying to hear that they will still offer a stick shift with several 4-cyl trims. (and not the V6 coupe? Has anyone actually checked that?)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Link to Accord models. Yes there is a V-6 with the MT in the coupe.

    http://sohc.vtec.net/news_files/1062301/13accord_orderinfo.gif
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2012
    I do not know the actual comparative details, but seemingly the answer to the question is NO !

    The MB ML 350 BlueTec CDI 3.0 L 455# ft is mated to a 7 speed "hybrid" CVT.
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