The Future Of The Manual Transmission

stickguy

deisel engines too.

ruking1

I think when you put in stick guy's post, your rates and mine (as a pre vision of 240% plus room for price rising,) the per mile driven costs are NOT encouraging. Being as how we are beyond the middle east PLUS the Russia of natural gas, this seems the next "best" step. Most of the engine drive train infrastructure can be utilized and converting RUG/PUG engines to natural gas are not as costly as the switch to plug in electric. To stay on topic Natural Gas engines can indeed use manual transmissions.

The regulation is what gives us the .29 cent per KWH with MASSIVE penalties for stepped over baseline use. Basically the fundamental power for so called plug in electric will at its source be natural gas. Many plants are also now coal fired, nuclear and hydro. EACH of those as their own issues as a sub topic.

carstryke

M5 is definatly the biggest car i can think of. However i am looking for the biggest CAR with a manual that won't cost a arm and a leg.

Out of the research i have done, the 2 biggest seem to be the Honda Accord and Dodge Challenger, both on full size car platforms.

Any other Noteworthy contender's i am missing

elias

Regal
Passat
(?)porsche panamamananamananera
(?)the huge 4-door maserati

stever

Mazda 5.

Well, it's big and it's not a truck.

qbrozen

Are we talking new?

M5 costs an arm and a leg, IMO. As do the Panamera and Maser, of course. The mazda5 is a good suggestion, although not really "big" as it is based on the mazda3.

You can get the more pedestrian 535 with a stick, although still pricey. There is the Acura TL, Cadillac CTS, or if considering used, the Pontiac G8. I would think the G37 and Legacy are a bit small in this crowd.

It really depends on what you mean in terms of "big." You may have hit on the biggest exterior dimensions with the Challenger, but the inside isn't very big.

dudleyr

If space for passengers inside is the goal, then the Accord is the biggest. I have the previous gen Accord (slightly smaller) and there is plenty of room for 4 6 footers.

Unfortunately Honda is making the stick harder to find and only offers it on a couple of trims. They finally offered the perfect trim for me SE with leather (sunroof makes the EX a no go) but decided to make it a mobile couch and not offer the stick shift.

I am hoping the stick makes a slight comeback next generation, but am not optimistic. Looks like VW or Maybe Subaru (if they bring the diesel over). Sorry Honda - I want another Accord, but I like to drive.

ruking1

I guess I did not realize the significance of seeing a fully loaded 2012 VW TDI SE Passat 6 speed manual in a recent kick the tires trip to a new car dealership.

carstryke

Yes new!! The M5 would be the perfect car but unless i win the lotto, thats not gunna happen.

As for price i was thinking around $35,000 tops.

I really like the G8 suggestion but i was hoping for new!!!

As for size i was hoping for fits 4 comfortably and 5 in a pinch. Must be Manual and a CAR.

stever

The Car Finder here flops up 46 new sedans under $35k that offer a MT. Can't sort them out by size or passenger capacity though.

stickguy

Passat should work well for your needs.

xwesx

I would definitely have the Subaru Legacy on the list. I think it falls into the "midsize" category, but in terms of room it feels as large inside as anything short of the full-size behemoths of yesteryear (such as Crown Vic, Caprice, etc). The six speed feels pretty decent, too (probably not as smooth as the Accord or Passat, though. I haven't tried those two models).

ruking1

I sat in the rear of the 6 speed Passat SE TDI for a long time. (ok 15 minutes) I would say that car is BUILT for 5. I would also characterize the Jetta as built for 4 and 5 will be good in a pinch. I think 40 (DSG) to 43 mpg (6 speed manual) in a "midsize" family sedan are the defacto new standards. They have just not received widespread acknowledgement.

stickguy

over the weekend, I spent 15 minutes in the back seat of a BMW 535 (a 2010, so the previous body style). take my word for it, it was built for 4, unless the 5th is extremely skinny, and has no legs.

ruking1

I do actually take your word for it. So the Passat (EPA 43 mpg) seems to be the ticket, even as the BMW 535i 6 speed manual costs more (WAY, minimum of 200%). It also gets almost silly fuel mileage (comparatively-53.6% better than 535i ( M/T EPA 28 mpg) on premium fuel (which is more than ULSD).

So for example from the San Jose, CA area, I would have no issues going (535 to 550 miles) to Las Vegas, NV in the rear of a Passat. If the Passat got EPA 43 mpg H it would use app 70% of a full tank (18.5).

(I actually did a leg in the rear of a 2003 Jetta and with three total folks in the rear.

Mr_Shiftright

It kind of depends on your local driving conditions. If you are often stuck in traffic, a large car with a manual transmission could be tiresome, as you'd find it harder to maneuver in and out of lanes, etc. A Passat is about as big as I'd want to go. I make a lot of split second decisions in traffic and it's a lot easier with a MINI.

If I lived in NV, well that's another story.

stickguy

I don't really see what difference it makes how big the car is in relation to the tranny. Seems to me it would be the same as in a smaller car (the annoyance factor) assuming the clutch, etc. is about the same.

no real difference to me driving my accord vs. say a fit. And if the Acura RL or Odyssey came in a stick, it would probably feel the same and be the same hassle factor.

and yes, I would have considered buying one!

Mr_Shiftright

Oh I don't know about that. Think of the variables betweeen small car and large, outside of the 3 pedals...you have the question of engine size, with probably higher compression, more engine braking.....that gives you that little neck snap when you apply and release in 1st gear crawling through traffic...and a more nose heavy car with more power (in most cases). Anyone who has driven a modern Corvette in traffic knows what I mean.

andys120

I agree Shifty. I owned a '92 Taurus SHO which really was too big for a manual shift car. Parallel parking was a dreadful chore. Bigger cars have bigger gears and hence heavier clutches and stiffer shift linkages. I felt the same way about my 1970 Pontiac GTO (Muncie 43-speed).

dudleyr

My experience is with the accord and it is much easier to drive in traffic than my Integra. The accord has a smoother clutch, more torque and better response. The Integra actualy feels bigger in traffic because it is not as smooth and refined and you need to give it more gas to move.

Don't get me wrong - the Integra handles better (slightly) but the effortlessness of the Accord keeps it from feeling bulky.

kyfdx

I think they are all automatics..

Mr_Shiftright

Lots of variables in determining how a stickshift feels in traffic--such as heavy duty clutch, or worse yet, lightened flywheel. Even some of these electronic throttles--the ones that have a very dead feeling off idle--can be a pain.

qbrozen

nope. I found a dozen on autotrader with manual transes. Although all are GXPs, so that might be the deciding factor. (?)

kyfdx

Hmmm... I was looking for a friend of mine, a couple of months ago, and all came up automatic...

Maybe it is GXP?

EDIT: Yup.. the ads all say only 1829 GXPs produced... I guess that's it..

Wow.. they are pricey! Over $30K for an '09 model..

nippononly

Even some of these electronic throttles--the ones that have a very dead feeling off idle--can be a pain

That's the problem with every Toyota with a manual I have driven in the least few years - there is such a delay when hitting the e-throttle before the engine revs that it makes smooth manual shifting all but impossible. Oh well, it's not like I expected Toyota to offer manuals much longer anyway....

elias

The GTO is a better fit vehicle than the G8 GXP for some of us... Fantastic vehicle. Maybe check the used market for GTOs with M6, and you will find a gem for low $... they are out there. GTO M6 production totals for USA were # about 10x or 20x those for GXP-M6. 2 doors but backseat riders are uniformly amazed at the rear seat comfort. G8 was just too big for me, it's size causing a flashback to bad memories of driving a 1971 lime green metallic Plymouth Satellite wagon for too long. .

new thread idea: cars such as the 71 satellite which were so frighteningly horrible that they caused you to switch to motorcycling or bicycling or unicycling.

kyfdx

The friend that I was looking for... already has a GTO... 2004 model that he bought new.. 1st one delivered at his dealership. for MSRP (gulp).

It now has just about 200K miles... so, he's ready for another car. It's in amazing condition for the mileage, and more or less trouble-free, considering...

So... good choice.... but, not in the running for his next vehicle..

mcdawgg

In my experience with a Camry 6 speed manual, it does take longer than normal to master "smooth manual shifting," but trust me, it is entirely possible. All electronic throttles require you to drive "different" than the old cable throttles, especially with the rev hang.

elias

200k on 05 GTO, that's about what i'm targeting for mine too..
for a next car, sounds like he'd be considering same stick vehicles I would, after i check this lottery ticket.
- regal
- CTS wagon or sedan, V or non V. AWD?
- corvette
- camaro
- BMW 5
- Audi A5
- Cayenne! find one with a stick and try it :}

and finally... how about: volkswagen CC . they are large!

Mr_Shiftright

Aside from the Corvette, Camaro and M5, he'd end up screwing himself out of thousands in resale value IMO.

ruking1

Unless I miss the mark, the GTO 's transmission is indeed a Tremec 6 speed manual either a T 59 or 6066. It is one stout transmission. Shifts are no where near as buttery as the Porsche Carrera S, but gosh I love it in the Corvette Z06.

nippononly

All electronic throttles require you to drive "different" than the old cable throttles

I beg to differ with you, my Subaru has an e-throttle and revs perfectly normally - totally immediate and most importantly linear just like when throttles were connected to the pedal by cables the way God intended. ;-)

Toyota has engineered theirs to have very soft tip-in (like several inches of travel before it even begins to rev, and then suddenly it revs quickly if you continue to depress the pedal) when paired with an automatic transmission, and it's fairly obvious to me that when they did that engineering there was no thought given to how it would make the manual-trans cars drive.

Mr_Shiftright

So anyway, my friend who owns the Porsche/Audi/Mini repair shop tells me about a '99 Porsche cabriolet he just got in---super clean, 57,000 miles, new top, new tires, excellent price...so what's not to like?

Well, it's a "tip"---a Tiptronic transmission with those + and - buttons on the steering wheel.

"Give it a try" says he. "It's fun".

WELL.....I know this is going to be hard to believe, but "out of the hole", maybe 0-30, I think my supercharged MINI is faster,even with 2/3rds the Horsepower. Once the Porsche gets rolling, it moves right along, and playing with those buttons is fun coming into and out of curves, etc.....

but you know, it just wasn't for me.

The car's "edginess" (which to me is one of the defining elements of a real sports car--a nervousness if you will) is gone.

So I passed, regrettably. Drop dead beautiful car though. Maybe some older gentleman might like it :shades: :shades: :shades:

ruking1

Are you saying the lack of 6 speed manual has taken the edge off that particular 911 Porsche?

Mr_Shiftright

Yes indeed. If it were a modern Jaguar, forgivable, but a Porsche?

The newer types of shiftless cars with electronic clutch (DSG) are quite an improvement---the Tiptronic is an automatic transmission with the driver as the brain.

In its defense, the Tiptronic is pretty bulletproof, unlike the engine that it drives in that car.

ruking1

I've a relative that commutes to work in a Porsche 911 Carrera S 6 speed manual. (downtown SF no less ???) I am sure the daily drill is seamless, but it seems very interesting on some of the levels we talk about here on this thread.

Mr_Shiftright

The 911 isn't one of those touchy supercars--it's a very easy daily driver, so I'd have no issue with that type of car as a stickshift. If it were a Ferrari, I'd opt for the buttons (well now I think you have no choice anymore in a street Ferrari).

I believe even about 50% of all Corvette buyers prefer an automatic.

benjaminh

Nissan's new xtronic CVT sounds pretty impressive. It's 15% more efficient than the current CVT, which helps the 2013 Altima get a predicted 38mpg on the highway. That's an impressive 6 mpg more than the current car, even though the new one is more powerful and faster.

No manual offered. But even if it was, I wonder if it would be as efficient...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze06Hxem2PU

robr2

The 911 isn't one of those touchy supercars--it's a very easy daily driver

True but when it's pushed, it's like a little puppy dog trying to spin around trying to catch it's tail.

Mr_Shiftright

Nah...not the newer ones. You have to be a real meathead to do that.

mazerunner

I made a visit to the local Toyota dealer because I was considering getting a new Camry. Much to my disappointment, I found that the 2012 Camry only comes with an automatic transmission. I could not believe that. For a car to be such a big seller, it would seem that Toyota would make at at least 5-10% of its Camrys with a stick. I don't like automatics at all, so I unfortunately had to cross this car off my list.

To make matters worse, I was browsing Edmunds and looking at what I'd like to get in the longer term--an Audi A4. Then I found that it only comes with automatic or "continuously variable" transmissions. If you want the stick, you have to get an A3.

This is depressing. I guess if most Americans drive automatics and they teach their children how to drive automatics, I guess there's not much market for manuals anymore. But I'd bet that if a dealership sold a loaded manual, it would command top dollar. Too bad most manuals I see are in base model cars or are in nasty colors that nobody likes.

I hope Toyota and Audi are listening. Please bring back the manual transmission! It's looking like my next car will be a BMW 3-series, even though I'd really rather have the Audi...

bpizzuti

Manuals just aren't that popular anymore. They've lost most if not all of their advantages to automatics, CVTs, and various flavors of automated sequential transmissions. They're more convenient, many are more efficient and economical (nothing can beat a CVT for maintaining optimum RPM), and some of the better-designed ones are just as direct and fun as a manual (Mazda's SkyActiv automatic comes to mind).

The manual market isn't disappearing, but it is being reduced to a small enthusiast community. It's just not needed in the mainstream market like it once was, and the mainstream market has a lot more options than it used to.

benjaminh

He's making progress, but there's no doubt that it's a lot more challenging than an auto...

mazerunner: Can't go wrong with a BMW. Get that!

But if you want something for less, what about an Accord EX? They still have manuals available. Or an Acura TSX? You could also look into a Hyundai Sonata 6 speed manual. They are pretty well equipped for the price....

mcdawgg

Even 2.5 years ago, the new 2010 Camry and 2010 Accord had only about 2.5% of their cars equipped with a manual tranny, and of the several dealers I talked to, they said they were VERY slow to sell. So your 5-10% is way too high, and for Honda and Toyota, 2.5% or less is way too low, unfortunately.

andys120

Most Cam-Cord drivers are looking for a reliable appliance to get them from A to B. Getting one with a stick seems pointless to me. You wouldn't expect them to offer a manual in a Malibu would you? Perhaps you ought to look at alternatives from VW or Subaru.

The A4 Quattro is available w a 6sp manual but if you get the FWD version, it's CVT only, but I don't know why anyone would get a FWD Audi.

dudleyr

I would not lump Accord in with Camry. Camry was very hard to find with a stick. Accord - every dealer seemed to have a few sticks when I bought mine. Why is an Accord driver looking for an appliance more than any other vehicle? In reality most buyers of almost all new cars are looking for an appliance.

What is wrong with a FWD Audi? I would much rather have one over the more complex, heavier and less fuel efficient AWD.

Mr_Shiftright

Well a FWD makes sense. Maybe people don't need AWD, and it is more expensive, eats more gas, is more complex to repair, etc.

I would venture that 75% of the people opting for AWD in a passenger car would be just as well off spending the $$$ on rain/snow dedicated tires.

After all it's that little footprint of rubber than holds a car on the road ultimately---even with 12-wheel drive, if your tires can't grip anything, it doesn't matter how many wheels you are spinning at once.

Ever see that war footage of TANKS sliding off the road?

andys120

I would venture that 75% of the people opting for AWD in a passenger car would be just as well off spending the $$$ on rain/snow dedicated tires.

That's undoubtedly true but that's not what Audis are about. Their Quattro system is complex but it's also bullet-proof and IMO it's the calling card that separates the brand from it's competitors. My understanding is that in dry conditions current Quattros handle more like RWD cars than (ugh) FWDers.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think they handle any better at the limits most people will drive them.

stever

"Sales of vehicles with manual transmissions have hovered around 4 percent the past two years, down from a decade high of 8.5 percent in 2002.

At least one car is bucking that trend: the 2012 Ford Focus.

With a stick shift, the car "becomes less an appliance and more an experience," he says. "I think there's definitely a movement for people to become more connected to the devices they use, including their cars."

Down-shifting: Stick shift sales ebb, despite the fun factor (Detroit News)

Then there's this reaction:

"I peered beneath my feet. "Oh, there are three pedals?" I asked."

Taking the mystery out of driving a stick (Detroit News)