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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • hoosiergrandadhoosiergrandad Member Posts: 96
    No gears, yes....but you could argue infinite ratios (Zeno's paradox).



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited January 2012
    The term was "infinite" gear ratios.

    So, in between that top and bottom how many ratios could you NOT count..?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes...?
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Just reading about the 2013 Ford Fusion. It will be available with a stick shift on the 1.6liter ecoboost with 179 hp and 26/37 mpg. Excellent numbers for a midsize sedan. Toyota is out of the game now. Wonder what Honda and Mazda will come up with. Honda claims class leading mpg with the 2013 Accord and will have direct injection for more hp.

    On the Focus boards one of the salesman is claiming 40% of their SE's have a stickshift and they can't keep them on the lots. Not sure if that is 100% correct, but nice to hear. Maybe people are flocking to the few MT's left now that some companies are dropping them.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota is out of the game now

    If the Fusion proves to be reliable...they stumbled a bit with Fiesta and Focus. Though not the true manuals, to be fair.

    New Fusion looks great, should do serious damage in that segment.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2012
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/25/ford-focus-titanium-to-get-manual-transmissio- n/

    Now you can get a manual in the top model, kudos! :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yeah but you see what's happening here (IMO)? I think they offer the manual transmission so that they can advertise the car at $1K--$2K cheaper than it "really is" for most people. So they see the ad in the paper and rush down to the dealer, only to find that this attractive MSRP was for a manual transmission car. (they didn't read the fine print).

    Even BMW does this.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2012
    Plus it says only 7% of the models that currently offer it come in manuals.

    You have to wonder if that's a supply- or demand-based decision.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    For us that follow this board, I think the majority of the minority that like S/S's find the lower price a definite plus. Another plus is that they are probably more durable.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    i think it's market driven based on a calculation.

    Personally, I think if tomorrow all automakers ceased to make manual transmissions, aside from we cranks and a few letters to the editor in small town newspapers, nobody in America would protest for long or very loudly....sad to say, but there you go--that's what i think.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I ment out of the Manual transmission game for the Camry - though they have been pretty rare the last decade. I tried to buy one but could only find it in the SE model (my preference) with a sunroof, and the lack of headroom killed the deal. Toyota is funny with their "options" as sometimes you can't get a car without them.

    Past Fusions have been pretty reliable, but the small displacement turbo does concern me a little.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    *BOTH* of us would be picketing against the death of the manual. ;)

    EcoBoost is so far, so good. The issues were with the semi-automatic trans.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    At least in the 3 series, BMW sells autos and manuals for the very same price now.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yep you're right! I don't see a manual for the 335d however.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    Currently there are power issues with the BMW 335 D !! BMW really does not have a 6 speed manual drive train that can handle 425# ft of torque+ an up to 30%(127.5) reserve (553# ft), cost effectively for an entry vehicle. Reserves are needed (whatever they decide on) for the almost inevitable chipping, tuning and larger injectors. While I think BMW 3 series are wonderful cars, the gassers are fairly anemic in the torque dept by way comparison. HP (the normal measure) sounds boring at best @ 265 hp. This of course if one is not careful to have to modify an array of OEM components.

    I have ridden in some chipped, tuned, bigger injectors and fuel pump modified, etc etc., VW Jetta TDI's that have put out 300 # ft of torque + from a fairly strong 155# ft oem. Naturally it made a lot of sense to upgrade the clutch systems to handle @ least 325# ft.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2012
    Not sure why you'd want to spend all that money to hotrod a diesel TDI...I thought economy was the whole idea...but maybe not for everyone. A big 'ol truck I could see, because you need to haul stuff.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Others say longevity is the whole idea. You know, I bought a Jetta because diesels go 500K miles easy. What happens to that plan when jack the boost up to ridiculous levels?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    Or... what happens when you realize that the rest of the car is still a Jetta? :surprise:

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think I'd still look for a left over Jetta sportwagen, the old model, which was a whole lot nicer.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    I like Jettas, but that diesel powertrain is not going to make the rest of the car last any longer, or have less problems....

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I totally agree with you. Manuals simply do not sell and each passing year the demand decreases.

    Honda made manual CRV's until 2006 and they just sat and sat on the lot to the point most stores wouldn't order any.

    There is some demand for manual Fits and Civics but not much.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Actually a good question. The real sleeper here: given the correct modifications mpg CAN remain virtually the same UNLESS you get into it. Your reaction shows this remains hidden from most folks used to only gassers.

    So from my point of view, the verdict is still out (after 32,000 miles/175,000) on whether I prefer the new power (236# ft of torque) which is virtually on all the time vs the 155# ft of torque. @ 90 mph I get 40/42 mpg vs 48-50 mpg. Now I really have to say it feels good to have 236# ft vs 155# ft. The obvious trade off is mpg. Another, the more powerful one has DSG and the less powerful one has a 5 speed manual. Additionally one can see there are certain apples to oranges comparisons.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    That is absolutely correct.

    However my experiences after 175,000 miles have been tires going till 112,300. The second tire set (different make) is on track for another 120,000 miles Brake pads and rotors @ 175,000 miles are projected to go to 250,000+ miles. I will change the lifetime manual transmission fluid for grins @ 250,000 miles. I run 20-30,000 miles OCI's (last two have been 30,000+). I run air filters app 100,000 miles. Alignments last easily 100,000 miles. I have original struts shocks and springs and will probably change the shocks and struts for grins @ 250,000-300,000 miles. I am on my 2nd windshield due to stone shots. The windshield wipers are going on 9 years old and of course 176,000 miles.

    I can compare and contrast a 04 Civic @ like miles, but I am afraid the above paragraph has bored most folks already.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Apparently you have the right touch for a VW.

    Unfortunately, the touch of most other people makes them fail in pretty much every possible way.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    How do you get such miles out of tires? I chew mine up regularly. I dont' think I ever got more than 35,000 out of a set of tires on any car I ever owned.

    We'll see with the new MINI tires. I think maybe I drive too fast around corners....

    Some cars are born tire-eaters. If you get more than 10,000 miles on the right front tire on a Saab 900 turbo, you're doin' something right!

    My brand new Scion xA went about 35,000 on tires but man, they were DONE and past done.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    I am not sure I do anything different than anyone else. I just follow the recommended procedures. I rotate (cross rotation rather than the recommended front to back back to front) every 10,000 or so miles, ah mostly or so. I also make sure the tires have a certain PSI. I also ignore them routinely for up to 3 months. This of course is a normal and usual loss of 1 # per month or - 3 psi. They are two different brands, GY LS-H (lousy oem's) Toyo TPT. Both are oem sized. (195/65/15 H rated). I also know instinctively the Michelin MXV4 and Primacy are both more costly and probably the better to best tires I can get for this vehicle. My guess is the Michelins would probably get more miles per set. :D
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited January 2012
    There is some demand for manual Fits and Civics but not much

    When I was shopping three weeks ago, the two nearest dealers did not have a single manual Fit or Civic between them. When I asked I was told that manual Civics were "just plain unavailable" and manual Fits were "a special order item". This was despite the fact that I was obviously a serious customer and ready to buy.

    So today the new car in my driveway is a Toyota instead. (5 speed stick)

    When Toyota gives up on the manual, as it inevitably will, I guess I will be stuck buying Mazdas and Subarus, not the worst thing in the world! ;-)

    And hey, maybe the manual will see a resurgence at Ford, it sure is looking a bit like that right now.....maybe Chevy too - I hear the turbo Sonic is ONLY available as a stick, or something like that?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,927
    The manual transmission has gone the way of chopsticks... give me a fork instead....or DSG/Dual Clutch Tranny that works as good as Audi's unit.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Aren't those expensive to service, every 40k or something like that?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Truly is is a DSG oil and filter change, parts plus @ most 1 hour of shop time.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I can't imagine what an air filter with 100,000 miles must look like! I just changed the one on our 2003 CRV after 25,000 miles and I was embarassed I had let it go that long. No, we do not drive on dusty roads.

    176,000 miles on wiper blades???

    If I don't change mine twice a year the streaking drives me nuts!

    Maybe it doesn't rain where you live?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    I really don't have to imagine what the dirty side (of the air filter) looks like after 80,000 to 100,000 miles. I do clean the snorkel screen ( a design and related PRE part if you will) every 5,000 miles or so (mostly or so :D). This gives me a s birds eye view of the dirty side, easily 20 times during a 100,000 air filter cycle, again albeit somewhat restricted view. The dirty side does indeed look dirty, as obviously it is designed to get; and that is @ 5,000, 10,000 UP to changing. I normally just dump the contents of the dirty side of the air box out. That is normally all it takes.

    I do have to imagine what the clean side looks like, albeit I don't really see it that much from the clean side. The design is such that I can see the clean side further past the clean side of the air filter. It is ALWAYS clean. I normally use a damp white cotton rag to check for dirt and it is literally clean. It also can be checked with a UOA (silicon particles reading) Indeed one of the tricks is not to open the air box, (aka seal the silicon seal once).

    The air box design is indeed, .... WELL DESIGNED. I know this is rather arcane so hesistate to go on, as to do not bore you or most folks to tears or distraction.

    Some secrets that I have found to the WWB. Use the pot side scrub side of a scotch brite pad dipped in either dishwashing dilution or car wash soap and run it up and down the blade (lengthwise in a V). It not only cleans the blade, it also removes the non performing rubber. Streaks then are minimal at most. I always make it a point to change blades out when it begins to tear.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    I think tire life expectancy does depend on the vehicle, but more so on the type of miles put on the vehicle (twists and turns result in more wear), driver habits, inflation, and load. If you can keep the heat buildup and sheer forces down, tires will last a long, long time.

    I tend to drive in a fairly spirited manner, yet I still generally manage to get manufacturer-spec life out of them. That's not saying much next to ruking1's double of that (or more).
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Let me add to that that a well designed and "robust" (whatever that means now a days) (manual shift drive train) CAN be built to aid in making the wear portions (clutch, throw out bearings come to mind) durable and reliable. I know for example that a clutch upgrade is relatively inexpensive next to either a DSG or automatic R/R or most likely rebuild.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2012
    I got my first flat of the new year out of the way last week, dumped the stale tires on the Outback that had less than 40k miles on them and have nice new shoes for the car.

    Changing the flat on the interstate wasn't the most fun. I really should buy a new car just to get the TPMS - likely would have saved me from ruining two tires in the last 5 months.

    The last set of high tread wear tires I had on the van lasted well, but were lousy in the wet; rather have softer treads with more all weather grip.

    By the time we're finally ready to dump our two last century rides, no one will be selling a manual transmission car in the US. :blush:
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    Hahaha, count yourself lucky if that's the case, Steve, as it means you have many more years of life in those old buggers!

    As for tires, with the number of miles you put on your rigs, I'd say buying high-mileage tires will likely not serve you well. Once tires are more than ~5 years old, they don't perform as well as they should. Even though I prefer not to incur the expense of "new shoes," I target my daily drivers for tire replacement every four years, at about 7500 miles a year (I have two sets of tires for each car, so about 7500 miles over six months). So, I want a tire that I expect to last at least 40,000 miles, which gives me confidence I can get a reliable four years of quality performance out of them before the next planned replacement.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My air filters are dead and gone at 20,000/25000---filthy. Wiper blades are changed 2X a year, and tires, as I said, have never stood me more than 40K---and I buy good tires. I guess I'm too frisky or something. :P

    I don't think I'll ever drive an automatic, or even semi-auto, unless I was disabled or something.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Well, if you want to suck a bunch of filthy air into your engine by not changing your air filters,t hat is your business.

    How about your home air filters? I change ours about four times a year and they are always pretty dirty. I suppose I could let them go and just breathe dirty air.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I don't think I'll ever drive an automatic, or even semi-auto, unless I was disabled or something.

    Yep... Its amazing how a chronic lower back injury can change your opinion on driving a car with an automatic.

    Ask me how I know...
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,617
    edited January 2012
    clogged filters deliver cleaner air than ever, at the expense of a huge pressure drop across said filter. That's reduced breathing capacity and reduced power at full throttle, but the air is clean -- possibly mpg impact as well.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    I think you misunderstand my post or insist on ignoring some very key points, that is your business. The clean side is absolutely clean. The filter filters and flows extremely well. If one is at all concerned with the real air flow and not the propaganda put out, CAT makes a air flow restriction meter. It can easily be a DIY installation. The VW TDI air filter is really designed to flow easily three times the flow needed to support a 140 hp/236 # ft of torque motor. I easily get 50 mpg @ 90 mph. This is with a just changed air filter or even an older one and with more mileage. It is truly not an issue.

    Home air filters (furnace and AC, I am assuming) are off topic.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,927
    Yes, the typical charge for a DSG Transmission service is 1 hour labor and DSG OIL, anf filter costs.

    However, my mechanic noted that to do it "right" by the VW/Audi book, it really takes a bit over 1.5 hours, and the correct DSG oil is uber expensive. Fortunately, I think 5 quarts does the trick.

    It's not that big a deal as you can easily go with 30K intervals even in severe use.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    I don't remember what I paid for 5 qts of DSG oil. I seem to recall app 120.00 for the kit, so 15 to 20 per qt.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,927
    Sounds about right... 15 to 20 per quart. That's some good oil! LOL
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    In comparison, Honda A/T fluid was app $10 per qt?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited January 2012
    No, I don't think I am misunderstanding you. I'm just having trouble understanding why you wouldn't just change your dirty air filter as most people do every 20,000 miles or so.

    I don't need to hook up some kind of a meter to determine my air flow. All I need to do is look at my old filter and spend the 10.00 for a new one.

    I don't know how your car can possibly run as well with a dirty air filter than a new one but you seem to have this concept figured out.

    Also, some dirt is going to get through that dirty air filter into the engine.

    The same WOULD apply to a home system.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    Then I think the reasons are then inherent in the explanations. A short soundbite would be: 20,000 miles (air filter change cycle) is 400% OVERKILL, compared to 100,000 miles: for no increase in performance and with WAY ( 4 times) higher costs.

    Actually neither do I, so I think we agree? . I know the (oem) design is well designed and spend $10 for a new one, albeit @ 80,000 to 100,000 miles. I would agree with you that these things are R/R items, and are made to be durable and reliable.

    Perhaps you should really research the issue further yourself. Evidently my explanations and multiple car good runnings are anathema to you.

    Incidently , my Honda mechanic has had the engine apart (for the 110,000 miles TB/WP change @ 120,000 miles and valve adjustments, etc. etc.) He was almost gushing in praise of how clean this car was/ IS and remains (innards) . Again on this one I run 20,000-25,000 miles OCI's. The oil filter is probably slightly smaller than a major league baseball. They cost app $2.25 each at WalMart's. Most of the cost of the filter is probably the metal casing, good looking paint, and job, structure and silicon seals, which as you know has little to do with filtering. Air filters are on a 80,000 to 100,000 miles interval. The air filter box on the Honda is not as well designed as the VW Jetta TDI's, nor is as much overkilled designed to flow 3 to 5 times more air. I think it was due to space limitations among others.

    Well I pretty much have said that with the references to the UOA silicon particles measurement. Again if you think a brand new air filter will give a ZERO (silicon particles) readings you would be incorrect. It actually lets in MORE silicon particles than a (slightly) USED air filter. Actually another reason why I change it at a longer interval rate. Statisically, it is probably a nit. However, why let in more dirt (silicon particles) and @ higher costs than LESS dirt (silicon particles AND are far lower costs?
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Good grief, man. Give up the good fight and treat yourself to a $10 air filter every once in a while. You've probably spent $50 of your time cleaning the old ones before you replace them.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well no, the snorkel cleaning is a part of normal maintenance. It is easy enough to tip the box on its side to get rid of dirt, whether I am changing the filter or not. NOT is far cleaner and obviously cheaper.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Dirty air filters more typically act as flow restricters but do not allow dirt to by pass. Not good for furnaces or engines.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    No, we don't agree but that's OK.

    An air filter is either dirty or it's not. I know what mine looked like after 25,000 miles.

    If you want to use 2.25 cheap Wal Mart filters that's fine for you to do.

    I use factory filters. I've seen them cut in half compared to the well known "orange" filters and there is no comparsion as to what is inside.

    I change oil and filters at around 5000 miles but maybe that's over kill if, in fact, your engine was as clean inside as you say it was.

    I'll just ask the crowd..Would you rather buy one of my used cars at 150,000 miles or one that ruking1 has kept and maintained?
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