The Future Of The Manual Transmission

isellhondas

"Dirty air filters act more as flow restictors"

True, but in the case of rukins's VW, it doesn't seem to matter in the way the car runs or in the fuel economy.

Amazing!

ateixeira

I've seen them cut in half compared to the well known "orange" filters and there is no comparsion as to what is inside.

I changed a cabin filter and the orange brand had fewer pleats. I'll go OEM next time.

isellhondas

Yes, a huge difference. The "orange" brand are cheap for a reason.

ruking1

I am not sure I understand this, but the "orange brand" is actually more expensive than the WalMart brand. It is vendored by Champion Labs, a very well known and quality filter oem. Normally anything made by Champion Labs sells for far more than the ORANGE brand.

Indeed the oem HONDA "BLUE" oil filter is made by none other than the same company that oem's the ORANGE brand. :surprise: link title With the sheer number of choices selection can be weird.

There are some Honda "gear heads" that will only buy the $25 made in Japan oil filter. So compared with $2.25, I am obviously ... not that gear head. Actually my Honda mechanic is a REAL Honda enthusiast. He races a Honda S2000 and is partially sponsored.

xwesx

Sounds to me like your technique is working well for you and your cars.

I have reusable filters in my cars, so I clean them annually when I change their oil, inspect hoses, etc., and the general maintenance stuff. I like the reusable filters because the cleaning process is quick, easy, and there is no waste generated.

My Subaru's cabin filter will need to be replaced during this year's maintenance day. I wish I could get a reusable filter for that.

ruking1

Part of what works for me, even I will point out are partly apples to oranges comparisons. But I do like it when "a plan comes together".

isellhondas

You have to know that thecompany who makes the "orange brand" filters is capable of making different quality filters which they do. The also private brand to specs. They can make excellent filters or appeal only to price and of course , quality suffers.

I pay nowhere near 25.00 and as often as I change my oil (4-5000 miles) I could probably get by skimping a bit.

I am far from a "gear head" but I have managed a busy shop and spent my life in and around the business. I have seen the results of trying to skimp on maintenance.

I would rather overkill I suppose and as a result, I have had few problems.

ruking1

..."I would rather overkill I suppose and as a result, I have had few problems."...

The VERY few problems that I have had were NOT caused by poor maintenance.

Indeed !! I fully understand what you are saying.

In a former life, I managed 100 front line jets ( fighters) in various maintenance organizations. Greatest number of direct personnel 650. The whole maintenance organization was app 3000, which I managed for a time (no fun).

ateixeira

Yet another example:

http://carvideos.caranddriver.com?bcpid=627028702&bclid=663505567&bctid=12130222- 90001

The Accent 6 speed gets a whopping 33mpg and hits 60 nearly 2 seconds quicker.

The Rio auto, same exact powertrain, only manages 28mpg and is comparatively slow.

Note both differences are rather huge. Accent manual is quickest and most efficient, #1 in both. The auto is simply uncompetitive.

nippononly

Hear hear!!

nippononly

and it seems that I can get a manual shift TDI Passat if I want, but a moonroof is not available unless I spend $2000 more for the automatic? Why do they do idiotic crap like that?

On the flip side, if I want an automatic (which I don't), it costs $2000 more and I can't get it WITHOUT the moonroof?!

ruking1

My advice is to stay away from the moonroof. There are any number of reasons. Here are some random ones:

1. Obviously cheaper
2. less electrical/mechanical complications
3. more reliable and durable
4. @ 90 mph an open moonroof is oppressive
5. more headroom
6. less chance of leakage

Mr_Shiftright

The only time I recommend a sunroof/moonroof is if the car's interior is oppressive and cave-like. There ARE cars like this, however.

Also I gotta say it comes in handy when you have only one car and you need to haul lumber or a rain gutter :P

ruking1

Or if you are in a lot of parades. :shades:

I do have to say that the VW 6 speed manual is probably one I would want to have.

Mr_Shiftright

the only time I'm in a parade is when there's a Prius at the head of a line of traffic.

stickguy

you have it backwards.

No moonroof, no sale.

ruking1

I understood from the git go you wanted a moonroof and a 6 speed manual.

I actually have one that has a moonroof and 6 speed DSG. I only consented to the moonroof because the dealer agreed to give me the moonroof at the non moonroof price, and actually because the three other drivers that use the car mostly, liked the moonroof and DSG. The DSG was $1,100 more if I recall, that they would only discount. The real clincher for the car was the IRS tax credit (60,000 unit TDI ceiling?) . This was unrelated (but known and indirectly related) to the dealers.

I did open it when going north bound on the PCH (Pacific Coast Highway (1)) in traffic. But has I got further away from LA (higher speeds) the noise was obnoxious.

Another I have with a stick shift and no moonroof.

isellhondas

I've had quite a few cars with moonroofs and they never did much for me.

Once in awhile, I'll open mine up but to me, anyway they arent a big deal.

And, they certainly have drawbacks as ruking accurately pointed out.

stickguy

my current shopping is actually for an automatic. But still need a moonroof. and power seats. That is important.

I could care less about other options that some people have to have, such as cruise.

elias

For decades after owning a 1965 VW, I'd always preferred my cars without holes in the roof but today I would have no concerns about VW moonroofs. They are are quite nice and seemed absolutely bulletproof with regard to engineering/design as far as I have seen with 5 modern VWs. Less so for the 1965 beetle with mechanical sunroof. :}

No problems with the 06 Jetta sunroof whatsoever over 6 years 120k and I certainly popped it open 1000 times - or opened the shade without opening the roof - either option was very handy.

a specific nice example is in the rain when window can't be opened, one can pop up the back of roof for ventilation without water entering the car.

ruking1

The last two came pretty much standard with cruise. Power seats might be a tad tricky. The TDI's tend to be "semi automatic" manual. with the tilt back micro adjustment being electric with the gross adjustment manual and the fore and aft adjustment being manual.

ateixeira

The drains do clog up. A Sienna owner just mentioned a water leak in a different thread.

So a little maintenance/attention is required, but problems aren't common any more.

ruking1

I am not sure I understand or agree. I think it is more like an ongoing issue. I received a May 7,2010. Revised Maintenance Schedule- Sunroof Drain Inspection and Cleaning. (putting it back on the maintenance schedule) Why it was ever removed in light of my take is beyond me and evidently VW, for removing it from the M/S.

My 1970 VW Beetle (bought used in 1971) came with a ( then known as SUN) roof, albeit manually operated. It was on the maintenance schedule, including using specific grease AFTER cleaning: so easily, the issue hasn't changed in 43 MY's? (1969-2012)

ateixeira

I guess that Toyota dealer was not cleaning and inspecting that sunroof drain.

He did say the dealer added it to their list after that experience. Can't say who goofed up or if other dealers miss that too.

isellhondas

A two second blast with a rubber tipped air gun wil quickly clean out those sunroof drains.

This really doesn't need to be added to a maintenance schedule since they rarely will plug up unless people park under trees with their sunroofs open.

Still, once in awhile it does happen.

volkov

Why did they start calling them "MOON"-roofs about a decade ago?
They are sun-roofs dammit! Opening them up on a full moon night just makes it hard to drive.
Just wondering.....

qbrozen

It was to distinguish between a sliding metal panel and a sliding glass panel. The metal panels were first, so the name "sunroof" was taken by the time they started making sliding glass panels.

BTW, according to wiki, the term moonroof was coined almost 40 years ago.

volkov

Got it, thanks.

andys120

It may be PDK only. Looks like another nail in the coffin of the three-pedal setup.

ateixeira

We're fighting a losing battle.... :sick:

ruking1

No, not really. The first time a new GT3 owner burns out the clutch on his manual transmission, even if it is his fault, he will blame the oem. To me using a PDK is an exercise in risk abatement. My guess is the most likely population of GT3 owners either doesn't want nor knows how to shift the car to take full advantage of the cars capabilities.

kyfdx

I'm pretty sure that having enough money to buy a six-figure car doesn't make you too stupid to drive a stick... :surprise:

lemmer

Pretty commonly tracked cars around these parts. I think those guys have an idea how to shift.

ruking1

From the way the article is written, again it is an exercise in risk abatement and cost control and probably revenue enhancement. I mean they already know they can probably sell 1/3 as manual transmissions. It just would appear if they went to all PDK that issue is put to bed, they can charge more money, put a fork in it already.

ateixeira

Automatic's EPA numbers revised downward, so now the manual 328i is rated slightly better:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/20/bmw-forced-to-lower-2012-3-series-auto-fuel-e- - conomy-to-33-mpg/

Anyone else think 24/36 seemed too good to be true for an auto sports sedan? It is now 23/33. The manual is 23/34.

kyfdx

turbo - 4, 8-speed automatic... start/stop technology.... LRR tires...

Nope, not surprised...

Mr_Shiftright

And I hear it's a nice driving car, too.

jrdwyer

I have a '95 Mazda Protege, bought new. Amazingly, the clutch is still fine after all these years and 230K+ miles. I obviously know how to drive a stick, but I also don't baby this car. I tow a 4x8 utility trailer with firewood and ATV quite regularly. I also take it on dirt/gravel roads most urban SUVs never see. So I am definitely a fan of the manual transmission on this car for reliability and economy. It's also fun to drive.

That said, the only car we will consider in the near future is a hybrid Prius due to high city MPG and good highway MPG. We may also go all electric when the battery tech gets better in a few years and prices drop. The simplicity of all electric cars (no exhaust, radiator/coolant, hydrayulic systems) is quite appealing, if not boring. I guess I've outgrown the Zoom-Zoom.

ruking1

I do not have the antidote for "boredom".

However, YOU already have the antidote for higher car prices !! Indeed I am sure that if your clutch IS going out, (doesn't sound like it) it will cost far less to R/R your clutch than to buy a new Prius. Not only that, EVERY car needs certain new parts. It is just that most folks chose to deal with it by getting a new car till those parts wear down and they start the process all over again. I am sure those parts will be FAR cheaper to buy and install than the 25,000 Prius and the parts down the road when you need them. If you are in a sales tax state, the hit for a 25,000 car can be substantial. In CA it is more like 2,250. I would argue that 2,250 (in direct taxation) will buy a LOAD of commute fuel. Also all the other costs for a new car will skyrocket.

jrdwyer

I'm not planning on getting rid of my Protege and I will definitely replace the clutch when the time comes. This car will go to my son in 6 years.

I guess the point of my post is that times change and technology changes. I predict no return to cheap gasoline. I feel that hybrid cars are transitional in the switchover to all electric and thus I will by a used Prius, if we go that route.

Assuming that battery technology improves, electric cars do offer the potential of lower manufacturing costs (fewer parts) and hopefully versions at $10-$15K when mass production begins. Envia Systems just announced a doubling of battery capacity, which was 3rd party tested at Crane Naval Center.

I did buy the Protege because it is very fuel efficient and I actually paid $300 more for it than a new automatic Protege the dealer also had on closeout. I've probably saved close to $7K in gas over the years versus buying a mid-sized car. I'm someone who looks way down the road with big purchases.

I think electric cars will make the manual transmission obsolete.

ruking1

It is good that you restated what you really meant to say. When you said you were tired of zoom zoom, the dots were connected to a Prius plug in, albeit in a few years.

Technological change is on going. The real question (to me): does the change give bang for the buck. I am guessing with you putting on 230k miles that is probably an issue with you also. For me @ .29 cent per KWH (current home cost) a plug in will cost WAY more than the diesel/gas manual transmission combination: per mile driven. I am also sure a commercial "charging" filling will cost far more than the .29 cents per KWH I now pay.

Given what the manual transmission is designed to do (mesh one or more spinning friction discs) to allow an engine to spin without shut off or restart, I would say it is a no brainer. It actually makes sense on a gas hybrid Prius as the first motivator is an ICE.

Right now the like for like per gal of diesel/RUG/PUG to natural gas is on the order of 4.00 + to something like .35 cents NG equivalent @30+ mpg.

Given the 1978/1979 oil shocks and current ME issues, one of the things that should have been learned is not to invest in an all or none solution, that would practically exist AGAIN, if we went exclusively to plug in electric. Another is the very restrictive to almost impossibility of building new power plants. ANY shift other than niche markets to electrical charging cars will already severely stress a severely stressed electrical system. CA has had ONGOING massive and statewide brown to black outs, partially due to the stress issues.

bpizzuti

Not until and unless they come up with sustainable batteries. The ones right now have to be yanked and replaced. They need to develop ones that can be maintained in place, and you can swap consumables on, to reduce ongoing maintenance. Swapping out an 8 year old Prius's batteries costs somewhere north of $3000 from what I've heard.

ruking1

I see that issue as remarkably short sighted of Toyota and its design mandates. It is almost as if they didn't expect it to be an economical alternative. Keep in mind this was designed more than a decade and one/half ago.

So to me until they actually do that concept (like you change the battery in ones flashlight) anything with the older technology is almost one off example, albeit EXPENSIVE curiosity.

In addition, the RANGE is NOT ready for prime time.

Mr_Shiftright

i actually drove a converted Ford Escort that was a full electric car AND a 5-speed manual transmission. It actually satisfied the need for driver involvement and the benefits of an electric.

Of course, as a conversion, it didn't have the range necessary to succeed in the marketplace but I thought the system was very workable in this configuration.

stickguy

pure electrics will never be more than a novelty/niche player anyway.

at minimum, it requires you to have 2 cars (unless you want to rent a lot!). anyone that travels longer distances, and may need to go somewhere on short notice, won't be able to own one as their only car.

so elimnate the poor and middle class off the top. and people that live in the large swaths of the country where nothing is close by.

basically they make sense for urban commuters, and commercial applications (Seems would be perfect for the post office?)

stickguy

Has been about 6 weeks I think since I switched from a MT Accord to an AT Volvo. Have adapted well enough (I no longer seem to try and use a clutch that isn't there, and rarely try to shift the tranny level myself!)

Have mostly just used it around town, and haven't really missed the stick at all. Not like I get to do any "fun" driving.

In a couple of weeks I need to make a run to long island, on a Friday, so that will be a good test, since the odds of not getting stuck in traffic a few times are nil.

ateixeira

I'm impressed that little car can tow that trailer.

I don't think the hybrid could, a key weakness, but you said you're keeping the Mazda anyway.

jrdwyer

High electric rates there. Our rate is "high" at $.12-$.14/kWh. 13 years ago is was $.08/kWh, but our state lets our publically traded electric monopoly do whatever they please and waste as much as they please, as long as the graft keeps flowing. Up the river in Cincinnati, where they have competition in the electric market, 100% wind sourced electricity sells for $.06-$.09/kWh retail. Their "clean" wind is cheaper than our "dirty" coal.

At our current electric rate, it's equivalent to $1.53/gallon gas, using my 35 MPG Protege average mileage as the comparison. So just at today's gasoline price (3.90/gal.) versus electric rates (.14/kWh), I'm looking at electric having a $2.37/gallon advantage. Over the life of a vehicle (300K miles,) that app. a $20K electric car advantage. One can argue about costs of maintenance over time, but the fuel math is pretty hard to ignore. In addition, electric rates are typically regulated by the state, as opposed to the oil sharks and their "free market" games. Electric cars are coming.

jrdwyer

I usually don't tow more than 700-800 lbs., although the trailer is max rated at 2000 lbs. ATV is only 400 lbs. I get about 28 MPG towing the trailer with the ATV on the highway, versus 39 without.

Take a trip to Ireland, England, or anywhere in Europe and see compact cars towing lots of stuff usually done by V8 pickup trucks in the USA. Granted, most drivers who do this understand the weight limitations of the vehicle they're using.

Also, some cars in Europe are still body on frame, higher ground clearance, rear axle, etc. to allow "rural" use when petrol is high priced.

ateixeira

I towed a bunch with my manual trans Subaru Forester, so I'm all for it.