Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

The Future Of The Manual Transmission

1178179181183184205

Comments

  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited July 2012
    they are both R-words but they do have different meanings, indeed. Thanks for reiterating my point, bpizzuti. It's probably best for those who don't care to understand the difference between the two R-words to just use premium ALL THE TIME in every vehicle - "just in case" - you can't be too careful, huh?

    Maybe some day someone can show a single bad thing that ever happened to a "premium recommended" engine due to putting 87-octane in it! It could happen some day. Maybe if I put another million miles on my car(s) something bad will happen to the engine and we can blame it on 87 octane. I will let yall know!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, if you assume that regular outsells premium by a factor of 10 to 1 or more, that would mean your chances of getting stale, engine ruining gas by burning premium is much higher. :P

    Maybe the cheaper econoboxes will breed some new MT drivers.

    "Auto companies believe young drivers such as Pscheidl, 19, are a good target for manual transmissions, which are cheaper to manufacture, purchase, drive and insure. And they're being marketed to the millennial 20-somethings as a hipper, more interactive way to drive.

    It could help explain why the stick shift seems to be making a minor comeback this year, accounting for 7% of new cars sold during the first five months, compared with 4% in the same period last year, according to Edmunds.com, which tracks car sales."

    Automakers stick more teens with manual transmissions (USA Today)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That might just be because they're running out of auto-equipped Elantras and Accents, and DCT-equipped Focuses and Fiestas. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2012
    Yep, I have a premium "required" car, as most supercharged or turbocharged cars are. The "recommended" group of cars is to enhance their car's driving characteristics, so obviously even though it's only "recommended", the engineers have built the engine to take advantage of premium fuel---but not require it.

    I guess my point is that many drivers aren't even aware of what "pinging" is, and might ignore it---to their peril.

    Oddly enough, this question of octane relates somewhat to manual transmissions, since it is possible to "lug" an engine with a manual trans, and this is where the detonation damage really occurs--when the engine is bogging down from being in too high a gear.

    So, someone like yourself who might never "lug" an engine with a manual trans, can get away with just about any fuel at the pump---but a careless manual transmission driver using a lower octane than recommended, could, I think, damage their engine.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I think the computers electronics can and do compensate. However I would ask, why would one knowingly buy a car that needs/wants/requires premium and NOT use ...premium? One can tell the performance and mpg difference almost right away. I mean I know why: normally price.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2012
    Ironically, often when you switch to lower octane, you lose MPG (on some cars) and so negate any savings at the pump. A 1 mpg difference, say from 20 down to 19 (hardly noticeable to most drivers) will cost you 30 gallons of gas over a year's time---about the same $$$ you saved dropping to a lower octane.

    I would think that anyone with a manual transmission car would kinda prefer the peppier performance from premium fuel (presuming one's engine was designed for premium fuel I mean).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2012
    Yes I am glad you said that, as that is what I noticed having HAD to ONCE use RUG when PUG is needed/wanted/required.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    great points, Mr. Shiftright, especially about the lugging. My experience/understanding is that the ECM will disable all ignition&fuel when too much lugging occurs in a manual transmission car. (when rpm drops below a certain minimum.) My experience is that lots of lugging of the engine causes nothing bad except to increase drivetrain lash, or make one notice the lash more. if it were true that lugging an engine with a manual could break the engine, would that void the warranty, or would we be able to identify it actually happening once over the course of human history? So far, seems like "not".

    regarding pinging, i understand you are mistaken that it is something to worry about. some pinging indicates optimal operation and is a design goal for all the modern car/truck gas engines, as far as i understand the goals. "engine knock" is NOT pinging.

    Q: WHY run 87 octane in an engine for which PREMIUM is recommended?
    A1: When the engine has 400 ft-lbs, and the roads allow barely 100 ft-lbs of traction due to the season. (cold dry roads are slippery too.)
    A2: When you are on a longer-than-one-tank cruise-control 75 mph drive in such a car. this is the type of drive on which V8s evidently can provide better mpg with 87 than with premium.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    From the article, here's something I already knew:
    A pilot study released in November 2006 by several researchers at the University of Virginia Health System watched 10 male teen drivers on a driving simulator.

    "Subjectively, participants report being more attentive while driving in manual transmission mode," the study concluded. "Objectively, participants drive safer in the manual transmission mode."


    I realize the wording of the title was intended to be a play on words, but it's too bad it makes it sound like it's a penalty to have a manual transmission. :-(

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2012
    I'd rather see a study of actual accident rates; surely the insurance companies do these. If the Virginia study is true, premiums for manual transmission cars should be cheaper than for automatics. The companies should have enough info in their systems to sort the cars out by transmission type.

    In the US, manual transmissions became associated with econoboxes with that stigma. May as well get crank windows and skip the radio and AC if you want a manual. :sick:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    @ 20% of the passenger vehicle fleet population, that study should be a no brainer to do. I am no expert in this but am told and also have read that even the VIN's carry this designator.

    The manual transmission probably has the high low segment stratifications. You can provide the lower end examples. Porsche 911 Carrerra and Corvette Z06 and ZR-1 come to mind.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    even the VIN's carry this designator

    I thought so too, but did a little cursory research and didn't see it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."VIS - Vehicle Identifier Section - The 10th to 17th positions are used by the manufacturer to identify the individual vehicle in question. This may include information on options installed or engine and transmission choices."

    link title
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2012
    Yeah "may". Sounds like the manufacturer positions aren't consistent from brand to brand, although transmission info is available for both my van and wagon. One decoder thinks my minivan is RWD though and thinks my Subaru is FWD.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I just stuck one of mine in several vin decoders and in more than once place (each site) the fact it was a 6 speed manual showed prominently. I am not sure how many times and vin decoder sites it has to show.
  • garv214garv214 Member Posts: 162
    edited July 2012
    In the US, manual transmissions became associated with econoboxes with that stigma. May as well get crank windows and skip the radio and AC if you want a manual.

    Hey you just described my 1994 Miata (except for the radio).... There is something special about driving around in a "stripper" car, you feel much more involved in the driving process. My dad has a 2010 Lexus ES and that is about as involved in driving as watching TV in your living room...

    I could live without A/C and power windows (in the SF Bay Area) as long as I had the "wing" windows I had in my 1968 Olds...
  • jfon425jfon425 Member Posts: 4
    I'm in my mid 50's and have never had an automatic as my daily driver. In an appropriate vehicle I much prefer a good manual. Early on, after college, I had slow but good handling cars such as German Opels. Later were cars like Accords, 626's, and a Volvo wagon. In the last 10-12 years it's been more powerful cars such as SHO, Maxima, and G35. I now have my most fun car ever, a GTI.

    Long ago, manuals gave significantly better performance and MPG, along with a lower cost. Modern automatics, especially the dual clutch types, are as good or better than manuals on both counts. However, in a fun, sporty car a stick is just plain more involving. Any difference in power isn't noticable to me, but the added fun is. When a business partner showed up with an automatic (!!!) Audi R8 I nearly wretched! Very cool, but what was he thinking?

    My four kids all drive manuals. A wonderful benefit is that in college their friends can't borrow them because they don't know how to drve them.

    Soon, I suspect we'll be paying a premium to get a car with three pedals. If so, I'll pay it.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    While not a premium, my on-order 328i costs the same with a manual as an automatic. Couldn't bring myself to get the automatic. I've had one automatic in my life... not a fan.
  • belaircarguybelaircarguy Member Posts: 107
    Just purchased a VW Passat (2.5 gas SE model) with a 5 speed manual transmission. Haven't had a manual since my 1980's VW Rabbit and BMW 318. Kids now college and high school age and both (girls) wanted to learn to drive a stick shift. VW was one of the few manufacturers that I could get at least a mid level car (SE Model) and not the base model. Also wanted a sunroof, but VW said you can't do that with a manual. No problem, went to my local auto shop and had an aftermarket sunroof installed. Looked at some other manufacturers, but almost all only will sell the very base model with a manual. Too bad! The Mazda 6 is a nice car, but the base model is pretty basic, Ford Fusion the same. Honda Accord you can get an EX (upscale) model with manual and sunroof. Unfortunately, this current model is way outdated on the radio, no bluetooth available etc.

    The manual is fun to drive, provides lots of control, and the kids are learning and having fun. Hurrah for VW and keeping the manual alive and available not only on the stripped model! Long live the third pedal.

    Bel Air Car Guy
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    From Edmunds Answers

    "Down shifting to slow car's speed, takes more gas?"

    Assume it's an ECU controlled, fuel injected manual transmission car and you aren't rev matching.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Not the first order study you wanted, but further evidence is the fact that many Euro rental companies charge much lower ins rates for Manuals versus Auto. We saved 75% getting a manual minivan in France 2 years ago. I have to think the actuaries are behind that. Plus I really wanted to drive one with a small diesel and stick. Loved it BTW and would have one in our garage if we had the options here.
    There is of course a potential confounding variable, namely that autos get chosen by most commonly by American tourists. AND I'm not trying to be funny on that point. Europeans are used to very narrow streets, roundabouts and other quirks of driving in Europe. Plus licences are earned there, not a right the way we seem to think.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, the terms pinging and "engine knock" are generally used simultaneously, IF by this we are referring to irregular combustion outside the flame-front.

    'lugging' would, I think put a lot of strain on the bottom end of the engine --crank and main bearings....

    The "pinging" you hear is actually internal engine parts rattling around--and in extreme cases of pinging, it's actually the cylinder walls flexing ! :surprise:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My sister goes over to England most Springs to look at gardens and she often rents a car. The actuaries would have a cow if they knew how many wrecks she's had over the years in the States. Usually she's forgetting which side of the road to drive on, trying to navigate and drive, and meanwhile trying to shift. With her left hand no less.

    Or maybe there's a notation in her files - this year was the first time she wound up in an automatic, and the price was good. :shades:

    But, at least she know how to drive a manual and has for decades. She's just not too skilled at driving period. My mom flat out refuses to ride anywhere with her.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    But on balance, I am sure you find many more lousy drivers in autos than stick. It's not meant to be superior or anything, merely that if I could barely drive, the last thing I would do is add another element of complication. Furthermore, I think that most who want a stick, pay attention to their driving experience and are more likely to be better at it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2012
    Well, it sounds good in theory.

    The numbers I've seen for Europe indicate that manuals have an 80 percent penetration rate, vs 20% for automatics. Wolfram Alpha indicates that the US traffic accident rate is ~3 times that of Europeans.

    SafeCarGuide indicates that the fatality rate in the EU is worse than the US (back in '99). But the source link is dead, and that number includes motorcycles.

    Now go to another country where manuals presumably predominate, like India. Their traffic accident rates are worse than ours. Lots of other factors going on, so you're going to have to make some assumptions about a lot of stuff in order to pin better driving on using a manual transmission, or even assume it's a major factor.

    Wikipedia has a laundry list. (Are there lots of automatics in Belgium and the Czech Republic?).
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    my insurance company peoples have always reported that the manual transmissions provide a lower insurance rate - I have asked a few times over the decades - but I don't ask every year.
  • irnmdnirnmdn Member Posts: 245
    Automatic transmissions are single most expensive part with high likelihood of failure in high-milage cars.
    With Audi/VW DSGs high-milage translates to shortly-after factory power-train warranty runs out.
    On the other hand, a car equipped with manual transmission can typically do 200k miles without ever needing several thousand dollar worth of repairs.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    But if 80% of us drove manuals, do you think the premium rates would really fall?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Idiots are idiots. Idiots who figure out how to work a clutch pedal...are idiots who figured out how to work a clutch pedal. Just because you force someone to work a pedal doesn't mean they're suddenly going to drive like responsible people.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2012
    And that pretty much describes my sister, who can drive a manual and owned at least one manual transmission car in her life (MG-B).

    The "self-selecting" crowd of enthusiast drivers who choose MTs are likely better drivers, but they also understand the theory behind hand position on the steering wheel, or shift points in curves and have other knowledge and skills that fall into the esoteric realm for the average driver. The Joe off the street just wants to get into gear and go.

    Plenty of "skilled" drivers drive like idiots too, come to think of it.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Then again, someone who understands hand position and shift points in curves, etc, will not necessarily choose a manual transmission, for a variety of factors (the inconvenience in stop and go traffic, a lack of ratios on the manual versus the DCT, CVT, or slushbox option, or even just a really badly constructed manual gearbox with rotten clutch feel and a shift linkage with the consistency of cottage cheese).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah but most manual gearboxes these days are pretty slick.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    Of course, an "EU" stat is misleading when comparing to the US, as the EU is a much more diverse group of people and economics. It's tough to compare the wild east to Germany or the UK - much wider human development gap than less developed places like the southeast compared to the northeast or west coast. In the wild east ,it is even worse than the US - fog a mirror and get a license. But in Germany and UK, getting a license is a drawn out and expensive task. It should be here too, but that wouldn't be "business friendly". I dare say there is not a soul alive who would say drivers in Britain or Germany are worse than the US. And the US will only continue to become worse with no improvement in driver training, and greater immigration of second and third worlders who are new to motoring and seem to flaunt it.

    Regarding manual drivers in developed areas - some are terrible (like your sister, who to be fair , sounds like she should be banned from the road), but I think most have greater situational and spatial awareness than automatic drivers. But there are always exceptions - just like with motorcycles, most riders are very "with it", but some seem to have a room temperature IQ.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    edited July 2012
    Still, in some areas, they are a hassle. I live in a congested area. I live on a hill. I work on a hill. I shop on another hill. There are a million stoplights and a dozen stop and go poorly planned infrastructure gridlocks between these places. A manual might really annoy me some days. If I lived in a less congested flatter area, I might seek one...but for here, I don't mind a slushbox daily driver. I shift it myself a lot anyway - but no clutch and nothing to mind on hills makes it better.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yeah but most manual gearboxes these days are pretty slick.

    Yes, and a bad one would be a deal-breaker for me anyway: I wouldn't move to an automatic version of the same model, I would buy a different car.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Luckily there's other options on some cars. I still don't like non-Nissan CVTs, but Nissan seems to do well enough with them, and putting it in 6-speed shiftable mode on a Juke can be a blast (that may be more to do with 180+ HP in such a tiny car though, hah). DCTs can be real nice when programmed right.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Fair enough, but don't make the mistake of buying a certain option that you might only need 5% of the time you drive.

    I really don't see how an automatic transmission would make me markedly happier in a traffic jam--certainly nothing I could measure, and certainly nothing like the thrill of the jam opening up and me being free of it.

    I just dig my left heel in a bit, and rock my foot in first gear---this is not anything like running a marathon.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    For me, the manual is something I might use 10% of the time. In a bumper to bumper crawl up a hill where the light sequencing is made to torture, I don't mind not having to be so careful. My E55 gives me plenty of thrill if I open it up and get around traffic, too :shades:

    Strange thing, I don't mind it nearly so bad on a bike.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    My E55 has tiptronic...changes are dreadfully slow compared to a manual, but at least the action is pretty intuitive. I tend to do more shifting for engine braking/noise making than holding gears longer.

    When I am in the fintail, which has MB's weird first in-house automatic, I choose shift points both up and down. Clutchless shifting isn't bad.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Some of them are pretty friggin slow...Chevy and Hyundai come to mind. Mazda and Nissan are better. Ford's might be, but it's simply improper to use a toggle switch to change gears, something just not right about it. Still waiting to get my hands on Dodge's DCT.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "It might look like there's a stick-shift revival under way in 2012, but we're not so sure," Edmunds.com Features Editor Carroll Lachnit said. "Fewer manual transmission cars on the road will mean, eventually, that there will be fewer parents or friends who know how to drive them, and so fewer teachers for the next generation."

    Changing gears: Is knowing how to drive stick in America still essential? (CNN)

    And new on our site:

    Five Myths About Stick Shifts
  • 34pete34pete Member Posts: 4
    It's pretty helpful if you travel overseas... and it does make driving more fun. With some of the lighter clutches and slicker trannies they have nowadays traffic is not that bad..

    The thing about Manuals is if you understand a little how they work they are far more appealing from a engineering standpoint IMHO.

    I looked into CVTs - as they are billed as this great step forward and it looks like they use torque converters. So really the CVT part just replaces the planetary gear set which wasn't exactly a huge problem before..

    The immediate and total control you have over your car with a manual is alot of fun in a world thats moving very rapidly to self driving cars..
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You can definitely "finesse" a car or truck with a manual transmission a lot better than with an automatic...you can do "inchies" for one thing ("come forward...a little bit more....just an inch more"), and faster downshifts than a DSG if you are skipping gears on the downshift (because you might be choosing the same clutch on the dual clutch DSG if you skip a gear).

    And of course, less chance of plowing into a laundromat window while exiting a parking space. :P

    An incremental advantage, I confess, but I just find a manual transmission more "intimate".
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    No kidding! I've been half looking at the Focus ST now that it looks like any Fiesta ST in North America is a long shot, but wondering where the fuel rating will fall. I hate their current optioning packages, though.

    Honestly, I hate seriously considering a new car, because I know I have to compromise on something. Maybe I'll just keep the Escort until one of us gets too old to drive any more. :blush:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,669
    My E55 has tiptronic...changes are dreadfully slow compared to a manual,

    I had a Tiptronic in my '98 Audi A4. It was the same way but the Steptronic setup in my BMWs provides pretty fast shifts. I often use it for engine braking on downhill or some times just to lock out the torque concnverter on twisty roads.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Some tiptronics are better than others (and some are actually DCTs, but I digress). Chevy and Hyundai seem to have a coffee break built in, but Mazda's seem to be very very quick as well.

    Nissan's "tiptronic" mode is even faster, but that's a CVT, not a slushbox. Makes an AWD Juke awfully fun though. :shades:
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Is automatic better than stick-shift?

    Is the electric starter better than a crank?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Crank only went one way, no intelligence required, just brute force.

    Completely different. Worst analogy ever.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    If you don't grip the crank right, and the timing/spark is set wrong and the car misfires, you get a broken wrist. So there's a little thought involved :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    And the answer is: yes, the electric starter is better than a crank, to all but the cranks out there. :shades:
Sign In or Register to comment.