The Future Of The Manual Transmission

texases

A loaded Suburban, for one.

boaz47

On a long grade an automatic will downshift to maintain its speed.

I just sold my Focus ZTS with cruise control and you could not run up the grapevine in top gear on Cruise.

lilengineerboy

Very true, it will severely limit my choices for my next vehicle, although by then, we might be using a different method of propulsion (electric power or what not) so it might be a mute point.

Perhaps you might try one of these.


So in 1/10 scale electric R/C buggy racing, I learned about how the wire type, wire gauge, number of winds, etc affect the performance of an electric motor. I think it will be a matter of time before "hot rod" or custom wound armatuers are available for electric vehicles. I also learned how the different battery types (SCE/SCR, 1200,1400 and 1600 C sized cells) affect run time and recharge capabilities.

I think I will miss the sound of an ignition engine, but that electric motor whine may be the automotive music of the next decade.

lilengineerboy

I just sold my Focus ZTS with cruise control and you could not run up the grapevine in top gear on Cruise.

Was that a manual or an auto? The ZX3 didn't have a big issue with it, and the Contour certainly didn't. In fact the Contour could get up I80 to Tahoe w/o down-shifting.

ateixeira

Autos tend to have very tall overdrivers to boost up the EPA numbers. Even with 4 ratios vs. 5 for a manual, they're often spaced further apart.

At 70 mph the Miata revs high, the Sienna is basically idling along.

boaz47

There are several that will not pull a long grade. Not that with less than 10 percent of the market there are than many that have that problem.

Why do you suppose so few people in the US buy manuals? If it is any thing other than some of the reasons I have posted please let me know what it might be? I have listed that American consumers aren't interested in learning to drive a manual. Some have called it lazy. I have listed that most consumers are not interested in shifting in rush hour traffic and heavy commuting. I have listed that many of the vehicles we drive are not typically seen with manuals, mini vans, SUVs, many upscale cars by MB and Lexus, and full sized trucks. (there may be a few but they are a lot less than 9 percent.) I have listed that one possible future direction we may be headed in is hybrids and they aren't loaded with manuals either.

Now tell me how easily you think a compact with two adults and two kids will pull a grade in 6th with the cruise set at 65?

Niche cars and sports cars have a shot at keeping their manuals for as long as I may still be driving. But if you look at what Nissan is doing I am not sure they will offer manuals that long.

Just to show my reasoning.

shipo

"Now tell me how easily you think a compact with two adults and two kids will pull a grade in 6th with the cruise set at 65?"

These days? Piece of cake. I drove a new Honda Civic EX 5-Speed a few months back, and there is little doubt that with 140 hp on tap, that car could carry itself and four passengers up an 8% grade in top gear with no problem at all. I rented a new Cobalt a couple of years back and that thing would have no problem with a full load and an 8% grade either, ditto the Focus I rented last summer.

As for Grapevine, hmmm, it's been years since I've driven over it (decades more like), however, I don't remember it being anywhere near 10%. I remember hearing an old gray beard talking about it when I lived in San Diego in the 1970s, and if I remember correctly, Grapevine is primarily a 6% grade that has short stretches at 7%.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jeffyscott

I used to have to take it out of cruise and downshift our 4 cyl manual 1989 Voyager quite often, at least when towing a 1200 pound pop-up camper .

Later we towed with an automatic Windstar and I never liked when it would decide to drop down two gears and race the engine when in cruise. That 3.8 L is not a pleasant sound at high rpm. When I sensed this was going to happen I'd often click the cruise off and take over to avoid having the engine sound like it was going to explode.

habitat1

Niche cars and sports cars have a shot at keeping their manuals for as long as I may still be driving. But if you look at what Nissan is doing I am not sure they will offer manuals that long.

If you look at what Nissan is doing, I'm not sure THEY will be around that long. But that's another subject.

boaz47

Ours was the manual. The only thing I couldn't get as an option on it was skid control. You could get it with the Auto but not the manual and I live in the mountains. With anything under 200 HP a manual seemed a better choice. After 200 it doesn't seem to matter all that much. Well, as long as you have some torque. I used to have a Jeep Cherokee with a straight six and a Automatic. Averaged 22 MPG driving up and down the mountain every day. Then we had a YJ with the same engine and a manual. Got 21 on the same commute. Our old CJ was lucky to get 15.

The Focus would start up the Grapevine set at 65 and by the time I crested the top we would be doing 50. If I took it out of Cruise and used 4th we could pull pull 70 with out getting close to red line so it had plenty of power. I didn't say it wouldn't pull it all I said was it couldn't hold the set speed. The little thing ran like a scalded dog heading to state line where it was flat but even going over Cajon Pass it wouldn't hold 70 with cruise.

british_rover

leave my MINI Cooper S in 6th gear and drive on I-81 and I-84 from VA to CT with cruise control the whole time. I did that trip a couple of times right at GVWR too.

ateixeira

I'm with boaz on this one.

I had a 91 Escort GT, with 127hp and only about 2300 lbs to pull, and with 4 people up in the Shanendoah mountains it kept dropping out of cruise control mode. And this was a low-geared 5 speed.

I can't imagine a tall geared 6 speed. Hopeless.

I doubt a 140hp Civic that weighs a whole bunch more will do any better nowadays.

shipo

"I doubt a 140hp Civic that weighs a whole bunch more will do any better nowadays."

Then I suggest you go drive one. That's a ballsey little car weighing between 2628 (DX) and 2738 (EX), weights that the motor has no problem lugging around. FWIW, we have a number of six and seven percent grades here in southern New Hampshire, and the EX 5-Speed that I drove handled them with relative aplomb.

Best Regards,
Shipo

nippononly

that want to leave your cars in top gear on cruise going up steepish slopes like the Grapevine are the reason automakers are gearing their manuals so short nowadays, when the same-model auto is geared much taller. :-(

Why WOULDN'T a Cooper S be able to crest the hill on cruise when it is running like 3500 rpm at 70 mph?

I see no problem with pulling it out of cruise (and maybe dropping a gear as necessary) for long grades, but then that's just the thing, isn't it? I want MORE interaction with the car, while automatic drivers want LESS.

(I wouldn't leave an automatic on cruise on a long grade either, but that's just because I wouldn't want to waste the gas)

british_rover

Why WOULDN'T a Cooper S be able to crest the hill on cruise when it is running like 3500 rpm at 70 mph?

Ehh I think I turned 3,000 rpms at 70 MPH in my MINI. That engine needed to be turning that rpm at highway speed as around 3,000-4,000 rpms was the torque peak.

circlew

I figured you were "up to speed" on this new tech. I think it's extremely interesting that the technology of the wheel motor integrates many of the physical necessities to get go-power and stop on time while re-charging the system. Very intriguing possibilities as the technology gets more sophisticated.

I will miss the sound of the IC also. The thing is the new tech is good for us and our future generations. We can always keep a track day car in the garage!

Regards,
OW

lilengineerboy

I think the application I want to see next for the IC, now that cylinder deactivation is around and we have forced induction (requiring less displacement) is the integrated starter/generator motor unit that is powerful enough to get the vehicle underway. I think having the car turn off at a traffic light and instantly restart when you push the gas would help fuel economy and ecology.

bumpy

AKA the GM mild hybrid system. It's starting to become not unheard of: BMW has one that also includes mild regenerative braking, and the smart fortwo has a start/stop option in Europe.

british_rover

Yup Land Rover anounced that all Manual transmission Rovers will have start stop feature in the next few months.

stickguy

I'm a little fuzzy on exactly how this works.

First, I assume that it requires an AT, and wouldn't work with a manual.

But even with an AT< since it will be in gear, will the car start without my foot on the brake and lurch forward? Do you have to keep your foot planted on the brakes even while stopped then or it won't restart?

Just seems like a bunch of overkill to me.

stickguy

OK, I read Rovers post and it says manual.

So, will it only work if you put the car in neutral? Clutch in? Whats the scoop.

I wouldn't want to sit holding the clutch in for an extended period of time. I guess it could be triggered to start when yo udepress the clutch. I would normally be sitting with the car in neutral and foot off the clutch at an extended stop.

nippononly

I think it's usually the brake pedal that triggers restart. Take your foot off the brake and the engine fires. So you don't have to have your foot on the clutch while you wait for the stoplight.

british_rover

I think the version that Land Rover has will restart the car when you push the clutch in.

It will also have a button to disable the system if you don't want it to be active.

boaz47

We talk about interaction with our vehicles but want to allow the computer to start and stop the engine? Does it seem to anyone else that Hybrids will be anti Manual? I am sure they can be made to work with a manual but will they bother over the long run? This doesn't seem like new technology to me. I have driven Golf carts that do that for years.

nippononly

The engine start/stop with the clutch or brake is old news in the hybrid world. You can always force it not to do that, or stop and start it yourself, if you're so inclined.

But whereas computers still don't shift better for us than we shift for ourselvs (because they can't see and anticipate the conditions on the road ahead like a human can, among other reasons), they probably are better than humans at stopping and starting the engine during idling at optimal times for gas savings in the hybrid scenario.

boaz47

So are you saying that if the transmission can shift better with a computer than without you would be more interested? Like a WRC car can and does shift better than a Dog leg? The question is, what makes the clutch more important than any other automotive control we might be willing to hand over to the computer?

from an economy standpoint doesn't the CVT offer more possible gears than any manual could ever offer? At least from a theoretical standpoint?

ny540i6

The question is, what makes the clutch more important than any other automotive control we might be willing to hand over to the computer?

Well, frankly, I'm no fan of the (not so) theoretical possibilities around the "gains" if the machines drove themselves, and we were simply passengers in highly efficient "personal transportation modules". For me the bottom line is that some people really enjoy driving, and others see it as a task - a means to an end. Shifting provides a visceral connection to the machine, and is also another facet of the skills required to operate the darn thing... besides, it just SOUNDS better... The day I hear a couple of kids playing "car" with the whine of a CVT replacing the run up in gears.... AAAAGGGGHHHH!!

daysailer

The CONCEPT of a CVT offers the promise of optimum transmission performance in all dimensions, whether economy, power transfer or starting torque. But as is usually the case, implementation falls short of the ideal. The VanDoorn CVT, which has been the basis of all automotive CVTs for the past 40 years or so (Toyota hybrids excepted), has higher losses than spur gears so efficiency of engine operation is offset, at least partially, by transmission losses. The CVT losses are exacerbated by the inherently lossy torque converter that is usually employed. Further, automatic control leaves the driver at the mercy of the control engineer's priority (i.e economy vs power) as with any automatic transmission.

jeffyscott

So CVTs have a torque converter...I had assumed they did not and thought that I might prefer that version of an automatic as a result.

ateixeira

DC is near sea level and flat as a pancake...

I'm talking about 3000 ft elevations climbing a steep grade.

Can't exactly test drive a Civic far enough to try that.

texases

So CVTs have a torque converter

That threw me for a while, too, it took my son asking me about CVTs to figure it out - the CVT is a replacement for the gears, either spur in manuals or planetary in ATs. You still need some way to disconnect the engine from the axle at a stop, so you could, theoretically, have a CVT with a clutch, but I know of none.

boaz47

That in theory you can have unlimited gear ratios with a CVT? In other words you would never be in between gears? I know they seem to be the preferred type of transmission in Hybrids like the Prius but then it starts out as an electric motor and so doesn't need to be disconnected when stopped. They simply call the Hybrid Prius transmission a CVT.

daysailer

A Van Doorne CVT has unlimited ratios within its range, but its upper and lower ratio limits are finite (the compression belt can only bend but so tightly and the large end of the cones can only be but so big). Since the ration can not be infinitely large, there must be some way to disconnect the drive when stopped, as Texases mentioned. Since the CVT has been employed as an automatic transmission, a torque converter is normally used, although it could as well be clutch, automated or manual. Now if someone would couple a Van Doorne CVT with a clutch and provide a manual means to adjust ratio, such as a non-detented, fore and aft lever, there could be a CVT in my future.

The Toyota hybrid "CVT" is intrinsic to the hybrid system and is not applicable to non-hybrid drives since it uses differential speed between the two drives to provide the effect of a CVT.

jeffyscott

I guess I had assumed CVT would have some sort of automated clutch for when the car is stopped. The fact that they instead use a torque converter would explain why, on my very brief test drive of an Altima, it seemed pretty much like a conventional automatic. I had expected it to feel like a solid connection.

stever

Maybe there's not a Cooper S in your immediate future, but there's always this to tide you over:

'Tis the season...

oregonboy

I like it!

But I'll bet my room mates would make fun of me when I said "Vroom-Vroom" every time I hung up my jacket.

james

ateixeira

My wife would laugh at that thing, no way could I hang it up inside the house.

boaz47

I could put it up, but it would be in the basement. And then next year she would toss it out.

Looking at the last WRC race it seems as if there is Subaru is doomed to a very distant third again this year. Ford seems to have nailed it this year.

I don't often wish for European imports because most of the time they simply don't deliver as well once they hit out highways but there is now one exception. I believe if Ford brought the Focus RS over I might just re-enter the manual camp. It would be nice if they brought the sequencial shifter with it but even with a dog leg it would be a interesting car.

ateixeira

I don't know what they were thinking keeping the new Focus away from the USA.

At least we get the MazdaSpeed3.

boaz47

Still I wonder how far we are from getting a transmission like the WRC cars? It seems to me it has to be possible even with some of the transmissions we already have. All we need is for a computer activated clutch and while a traditional six speed may not be able to change gears as fast as a sequencial designed WRC transmission it would have to be quicker than a traditional clutch.

andys120

Still I wonder how far we are from getting a transmission like the WRC cars?

Not very far at all Boaz. Borg Warner has redesigned their ground breaking DSG to accept more power and deliver more fuel efficiency. It'll be optional in the BMW M3 and others. Details here.

boaz47

As my son might say, "SWEET".

ateixeira

Do they supply Mitsubishi?

Because they just announced delays on their dual clutch setup for the EVO...

bristol2

From an article on the Honda Accord coupe vs. Nissan Altima coupe:
link title

The lines I am keying in on read...
Honda tells us that it expects 4,000 of the 20,000 2008 Accord V6 Coupes will come equipped with the manual transmission. Nissan says about 36,000 Altima coupes will hit the road, but less than 1,000 SE V6s will come equipped with a manual transmission.

Sounds like Honda is putting in 20% manuals while Nissan is only producing about 2% manuals.
This is the first time I have seen an actual breakdown from the manufacturer regarding production of manual vs. auto.

For all true believers, let's hope Honda's right!

boaz47

I don't know if this should be a surprise to us. Nissan seems to be moving away from the manual faster than most ot the other Japanese companies. With the Maxima, Murano, and now the Rogue not even being offered in manual it almost seems like they are planning on dropping the manual on the Altima. Maybe they won't but they do seemed geared to limiting their production to just what the research people are telling them is their primary target. As Nippon said earlier he hopes Honda keeps his options open for a long time.

bristol2

I am glad to see that the percentage for manuals is at 20% for the Accord coupe. We have kind of accepted as fact that manuals are at 10%. This may well just be due to the type of vehicle though (coupe=sporty).

I assume that Honda is going to release a v6 sedan with manual later in the model life like they did with the previous generation and would be interested to see what the percentage of manuals is for the 4-door. Far lower I am sure.

lilengineerboy

And it looks like Nissan is struggling more so than Honda. Nissan went through this in the 80s with a whole bunch of boring mainstream vehicles, then they had a turn of fortune with the then new '89 Maxima and Altima, and ' 91 Sentra SE-R (and to a lesser degree the 240). In the late 90s, they again lost themselves (Altima was nothing special, the Maxima was huge). Now they are apparently using a CVT that has not met wide public acceptance (although I think its best in class, personally) to differentiate their product. I don't think that is such a wise decision.

lilengineerboy

This may well just be due to the type of vehicle though (coupe=sporty).

2 words...Monte Carlo...about as sporty as Rosanne Bar.

I assume that Honda is going to release a v6 sedan with manual later in the model life like they did with the previous generation and would be interested to see what the percentage of manuals is for the 4-door. Far lower I am sure.

Full size 4drs with a manual are a niche market I would imagine. Taurus SHO, older Maxima, and some BMWs come to mind, and even those might have been considered mid-sized. That said, just because it is a smaller market doesn't mean its not important. If everyone builds a car right in the middle, there is little to differentiate the product and people will buy the cheapest one. If you have the most exploding potato sacks or the best electronic map or a little box that can unlock your car over the phone, that does less to differentiate your product.

boaz47

But what does make a difference? I was watching a Commercial for Audi last night and they had this rather good looking vehicle that might have been a large hatch or a small crossover SUV. Towards the end of the commercial the announcer proudly proclaims it is available in a six speed automatic. Of all the virtues touted about this car the transmission was only mentioned in reguards to a new automatic. I think it still offers a manual but it wasn't even mentioned. And what do they talk about with the V-6 Audi? They have added a CVT.

What that says is that even the sporty manufacturers are looking at getting the mainstream into their cars and they must not feel a manual will attract them.

Just as a point, if any are watching the news about the LA Auto show they may see a whole bevy of new mid sized and bigger hybrids getting a lot of press. Can you guess how many of those new and future fuel saving and green vehicles are offered in a manual?

bumpy

Nissan says about 36,000 Altima coupes will hit the road, but less than 1,000 SE V6s will come equipped with a manual transmission.

Nissan is only producing about 2% manuals.

Not quite. The 36,000 is for all Altima coupes, 4 and 6 cylinder across all trims, while the 1,000 is only for the top-end SE V6 model.