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And my argument is that they should worry perhaps a little less about attracting the mainstream buyer. A case in point is Subaru, who is going after the mainstream buyer, they dropped the Legacy wagon, now you have to get an Outback if you want a wagon, manual transmissions are only available on a couple models, there is no LSD in the WRX, having been replaced by an electronic system, etc.
No mainstream buyer is going to confuse the smoothness of a Civic or Accord with the Subaru flat-4. NVH is much worse in the Legacy than the Accord. They dropped the sunroof pkg from the Impreza.
Sales are down 7% so far, and thats with the introduction of 2 new models.
Just as a point, if any are watching the news about the LA Auto show they may see a whole bevy of new mid sized and bigger hybrids getting a lot of press. Can you guess how many of those new and future fuel saving and green vehicles are offered in a manual?
I am missing your point. Hybrids are a niche market unto themselves. Without government incentives and people wanting to feel environmentally friendly, there is really no justification for them. The more effective bio-diesel VW TDIs have been available as a manual through '06 (there was no '07 model, just leftover '06s)
Huh?
The Impeza came out about 2 months ago, and both those months set all-time records for Subaru.
They are down for the year, yes, but that's because of poor sales prior to the new Impreza coming out.
I presume you mean the freshened 08 Tribeca as the other new models, and that's selling well, too. About 50% above sales levels for the 06-07 Tribeca.
The new models are both doing well so far.
I would imagine the new Tribeca would show a sales improvement over the old, I don't think many people cared for the styling.
My point is Subaru will never be a mainstream competitor as long as they keep "what makes a Subaru a Subaru" and if they don't, then there is nothing to differentiate them in the marketplace. Given that, supporting niche markets might not be so bad.
Think about it. Mitsubishi, Hyundai, and Chrysler all share a global 2.4l engine. So much for any chance for character.
Mini used engines made in Brazil in plants operated by other manufacturers (and not BMW).
Subaru has remained quirky and independent despite part ownership by GM and now Toyota. I sure hope it stays that way.
Yes, the boxer has more NVH but that characteristic growl is how you can tell a WRX is approaching and not a Camry/Accord/Galant/Fusion/whatever.
Otherwise we could end up with a Subaru Camry. Who needs that? If we want a Toyota, we'll get that. Give us some variety.
I sure do hope they remain niche oriented and stick with the AWD-only and boxer engine layout.
Even though I'd like to see even more manual models (H6 for instance), at least it's offered on the Forester, Impreza, Outback Sport, Legacy, and Outback models. All but the Tribeca, basically.
Think about it. Mitsubishi, Hyundai, and Chrysler all share a global 2.4l engine. So much for any chance for character.
Those cars aren't about character, those cars are all about price, that is kind of my point. There is nothing really differentiating those vehicles in the class, so it comes down to price.
Mini used engines made in Brazil in plants operated by other manufacturers (and not BMW).
The engine isn't so much what differentiates that vehicle in the class. The car is a sub-compact that is incredibly fun to drive, much more so than a Yaris or a Aveo. That has its non-mainstream niche, and because of that, commands a premium over its competitors.
Subaru has remained quirky and independent despite part ownership by GM and now Toyota. I sure hope it stays that way.
Me too but from what I've seen so far, I'm not holding my breath. Toyota wants fewer models, smaller product mix, etc. That seems to be where they are headed.
Yes, the boxer has more NVH but that characteristic growl is how you can tell a WRX is approaching and not a Camry/Accord/Galant/Fusion/whatever.
Oh I am certainly not complaining about it, but I am no where near a mainstream buyer either. Thats kind of my point.
Otherwise we could end up with a Subaru Camry. Who needs that? If we want a Toyota, we'll get that. Give us some variety. I sure do hope they remain niche oriented and stick with the AWD-only and boxer engine layout.
You're preaching to the choir, brother.
Even though I'd like to see even more manual models (H6 for instance), at least it's offered on the Forester, Impreza, Outback Sport, Legacy, and Outback models. All but the Tribeca, basically.
If they made a Legacy 2.5GT (the turbo) wagon with a stick, we would have one right now to replace or Legacy 2.5i wagon/stick. We keep getting those "guaranteed trade in value" things but unfortunately they don't make anything of interest for us right now. I also liked the 04-'05 WRX but haven't liked the styling of the direction of the later models (the 2.5 is cool but the styling, features, and overall value has declined somewhat).
So for the enthusiast you might be correct, companies like Audi and Subaru maybe should forget the mainstream. But how about for the stock holders and bean counters? Looking at the advertisements we see by the media it looks like selling to the majority. Even Porsche has fallen for this trend of getting into the mainstream. Did you ever think Porsche would make a SUV?
There is only so many in the middle. I also diasgree that they are aimed at the heart of the American consumer; they are using an unconventional transmission and the configuration of option packages drives the price up too much on their vehicles. Look at how Nissan and Renault are doing right now. Both are having considerably more trouble then a few years ago; Its cyclical, they will find their way again. Goshen is just a smarter Nasser.
So for the enthusiast you might be correct, companies like Audi and Subaru maybe should forget the mainstream. But how about for the stock holders and bean counters?
BMW is one of the most profitable auto-makers out there, it has a differentiated product that is designed to appeal to a niche market.
Even Porsche has fallen for this trend of getting into the mainstream. Did you ever think Porsche would make a SUV?
And they got an expensive albatross. However, things are relative, Porsche might be making enough on that to offset the costs for development elsewhere. If there was no 911/Cayman/Boxter, how many SUVs do you think they would sell? I would also point out that the Cayenne is one of the few SUVs available with a stick.
That's what worries me also. I personally may prefer the boxer engine and “symmetrical” AWD but I’m sure that I’m in a small minority and that the large majority of buyers don’t care whether their engine cylinders are vertical or horizontal nor do they really concern themselves with the nuances of the different AWD systems.
Given that, what’s left to set Subaru apart? I think they should at least offer manual transmissions in every model (to include the Tribeca) since it’s something that visually and viscerally differentiates one car from another.
-Frank
Still with 91 percent of the market in automatics the consumer is speaking with their wallet. The manufacturer has to listen to the consumer. And if we think about it enthusiasts are a niche within a niche of the market. Plus they seem to keep their cars longer in the first place. Unless there is some change in the consumer attitude of the US it seems highly unlikely the trend will change in the next few years.
I think there is a bit of a difference there, because one is how the vehicle interfaces with the road and the other is how the vehicle interfaces with the driver. While they try to make it transparent which wheels are driving the vehicle, its pretty hard to confuse a stick and an auto.
Still with 91 percent of the market in automatics the consumer is speaking with their wallet. The manufacturer has to listen to the consumer. And if we think about it enthusiasts are a niche within a niche of the market. Plus they seem to keep their cars longer in the first place. Unless there is some change in the consumer attitude of the US it seems highly unlikely the trend will change in the next few years.
I don't know, when all the cars are the same and there is nothing to differentiate them but price and how big the LCD is for rear seat entertainment, they might look for something like I dunno, a manual transmission as a way to differentiate their product. I am not so worried about making everyone and their mother run out and get a manual transmission vehicle, but I am also not too worried that I won't be able to find one when I need to.
From a business stand point it's hard for Toyota to keep allowing them to sell only boxers with a unique layout, because those can't really share many parts with Toyotas to spread the costs.
I'm hoping they can limit the help to things like HVAC, stereo, air bags, i.e. things that you need but don't really determine the character of the car.
So keep the boxer engines and the AWD, and save costs by using Toyota A/C and radios.
I hope Subaru sticks to its guns and continues to offer manuals - the Toyota influence is not a good thing in that regard. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It would break my heart to sell them re-badge the euro RAV4 (same model, just a shorter wheelbase) and try to sell that here as a Forester. :sick:
-Frank
I am not usually fond of rebadging, but here they would be rebadging a model not otherwise sold in the States, to give Subaru a model with higher fuel economy.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-Frank
I hope you mean in this country since Subaru has already broken your commandment. The last two generations of Subaru Justy sold in Europe were based on Suzuki products (Suzuki Swift/Forsa and Suzuki Ignis) and the Subaru Traviq was a rebadged Opel/Vauxhall Zafira.
I'm all for Subaru remaining Subaru. Don't dilute the brand by making is just like every other brand. Keep the boxer engines...keep the AWD in the US (FWD is still offered in other countries)...keep them high quality and quirky. Otherwise they're just another car. Someone who worked fairly high up in Subaru once told me that (this was in the early 1990s) they sold an adequate FWD vehicle but a great AWD one, which is what made them stand out. Take away the Subaru-ness of Subaru, and they'll lose many fans....and probably cease to be within a decade.
I believe Toyota has one advantage in owning part of Subaru that GM didn't have. The Japanese will not allow a foreign company to own a Japanese company outright. I think 49 percent is they can do. But then once you own 40 percent and have the money you can control the direction if you want. However Toyota would in theory be able to own all of Subaru. That would make Subaru more like Saab is to GM.
That may not have anything to do with manuals however. The consumer has a lot more to do with what transmission is offered than the company. The consumer can impress the stock holders and they have a way of impressing the management of any company.
Also an update on one of the only two people I know that bought a Baja. I think I mentioned this to ateixeira but I may have forgotten. The guy had a f-150 he gave to his oldest daughter and bought a Baja. Well we talked to his wife Monday and he got rid of the Baja and bought a Silverado HD. So once again they have a family with five cars and not one manual. He even bought a quad for his wife with a automatic.
-Frank
Truck guys will always be truck guys. I am surprised he thought he could trade in the Ford on a Baja. If they had made a nice strippo Baja with the powertrain and content of the "basic" Outback, I would have bought one. I always thought it was kind of cool. Too bad cool didn't translate into sales for them...
The problem with trucks of all colors and stripes is the gas mileage. Little car-based trucklets have the potential to change all that, but no-one will make one that way. Instead we get the Ridgeline and the Baja, way heavy in the first case, overpriced in the second, and big-engined in both.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Good point. Brand identity can vary a lot between different markets.
Subaru... in the early 1990s...sold an adequate FWD vehicle but a great AWD one, which is what made them stand out.
One of Subaru's big problems is that while they still make great AWD systems, the rest of the industry has improved both their systems as well as expanded the selection of models offering AWD. So while selling an AWD sedan or wagon 10 years ago really made you stand out in the crowd, the same certainly isn't true today.
-Frank
I think it's done for packaging reasons. If it was a conventional manual, it would need the extra cables and linkages to the clutch and shifter rails. Leaving that stuff out lets the transaxle take up less space in the back.
Guess what?
It bombed.
Sure, you'll please a few dealers in the short-term, maybe fill a few voids, but Subaru's long-term strategy can't be selling re-badged Toyotas.
Toyota is going to squeeze Subaru because they want the manufacturing plant capacity in Indiana.
GM did rebadge the WRX as the Saab 9-3 but fortunately didn't push for rebadging any GM products as a Subaru.
It was the 9-2, but right basic idea. Also, the Tribecca was originally slated to be shared, IIRC.
You're correct, the 08 Tribeca basically was the Saab version. They were developed side-by-side.
When GM bailed, Subaru just continued development and that became the face-lifted 2008 Tribeca.
Pretty funny, actually.
I was talking with a friend of mine that is also a truck guy about this very subject. He has a very clean 56 Ford Pickup. Has had it for years and has put more than one new motor and transmission in it over the years. I asked him how many cars he has had over the years and he admitted he had more than he can name. But the truck has never let him down. But he is getting to the point he doesn't want to drop another 351 into the Ford. So I asked what he plans on doing and he said he would sell it and get a modern truck. Whoever gets the 56 will get a clean truck but he will not get power stearing.
I sure could not see doing that. Granted, eventually, I may break down and get a "modern" truck - it would be great to usher my truck into more of a "retired" role. However, there is no way I could bring my self to sell my '69 Chevy as a requirement to purchase the other! Modern trucks maintain no resemblance to the experience provided by trucks of old, save for the bed (unless you want a "step" side). In some ways that is good, but in others, quite bad. If life can refrain from throwing me an awful twist, that truck is the only part of my fleet that will be there as long as I am. It is still on engine #1, though; my opinion might change were it to start chewing them up....
What engine do you have in the 69? 283 or 327? My dad had a 235 or 250 six in his.
Heck, my truck still has the original clutch in it. :P
Actually, that line had been closed since production of Isuzus ended at the SIA plant. Toyota is just filling in unused space.
When the Camry came, they moved the Tribeca to share space with the Legacy/Outback. Baja was dropped but that was so low volume it didn't make much difference.
They can add/remove other shifts to increase or decrease output from either line. One good thing was they created a bunch of new jobs in Indiana. Go Hoosiers. :shades:
There's a certain amount of chicken & egg going on here BTW. Even though several high-end cars are theoretically available with a manual, finding one can be a real challenge -- special order is often/usually required. Mazda (not a high-end brand, but several nice cars) & a few others are holding up their end (BMW, Mercedes C, Caddy CTS, small Audis, etc.), but the "lowest common denominator" is certainly at work among most large-volume manufacturers in North America.
I'll give up a car brand, model or trim level long before I'll give up having a manual.
Most appear to feel otherwise.
Most appear to feel otherwise."
Clearly many of us who participate in this discussion aren't "Most", me included.
Best Regards,
Shipo
-Frank
So, is ninety different options enough to choose from?
Best Regards,
Shipo
First, you've got to want to. (first, you gotta wanna).
Or not.
Best Regards,
Shipo
But I will give it a honest look. I believe if I could find a 2005 Tundra Access cab with a manual I might settle for a 1/2 ton.
3/4 ton pick-ups are a fairly rare breed, I would imagine it's hard finding good ones used AT ALL, regardless of transmission choice.
I was cheered to see that Toyota will continue to offer the manual in the new Matrix and Corolla, and will even offer the Matrix 2.4s (which will use the Camry engine) with a 5-speed manual.
On the down side, I don't think that Tundra comes with a manual in any trim any more, even though you can still get the V-6. :-(
The new Forester will still offer the manual. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippon my friend, I have to have a V-8 the 6 just will not get it. If I get a smaller trailer a V-8 Tundra would just make it. With nothing to spare however. If I get a full sized SUV I am out of luck for a manual period it seems. My wife has decided the truck is a more practical vehicle and after only three days without one said she hopes I decide to get another one.
I have a contact with a Auction house through my cousin and they will be looking as well. I will let you know what my options are in the next few weeks. I would like to get another 4x4 before the snow comes but I may have to rent one if we get the predicted storm next week.