Mystery car pix

ab348

I saw an episode of "Brian Johnson: Life on the Road" where his guest was Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits (Johnson was lead singer for AC/DC). Both of them are from Newcastle.

omarman

Isn't Knopfler from Glasgow?

ab348

Not according to him. He was telling tales of going to Spanish City in Newcastle as a youngster.

andys120

magnette said:

This is the Kaiser Manhattan - and a late one from 1953/4 when they had introduced a wrap around window and also those lights which are different from the usual ones

They did build it in after ceasing in the US - IKA made it in Argentina for a few years

It's advertised on BAT as a '54 Kaiser Special, not a Manhattan. Curiously the back glass is wraparound but the front is not.

magnette

Yes - it is still called Newcastle despite the fact that the castle is clearly knocking on a bit by now - the main keep there is about 1200 and was built in the reign of King Henry II

It's a great city and the surrounding areas are good too - Hadrians Wall, the Roman wall right across England ends at Newcastle and the city is really lively (in normal times) at night.

You've got all the cars I think although the Austin is the larger Westminster rather than the Cambridge - the lights are slightly different and the car is a bit wider although that's hard to see without a comparison.

The dark car ahead of that Austin is a Ford Consul mk II

magnette

fintail said:

Given the year and those cars, I can hear something like Herman's Hermits or Gerry and the Pacemakers in the background.

Lots of the music in that period was very evocative and the mood in the picture is really well composed I think.

magnette

Continuing our tour of Britain - this one is Glasgow in 1972 - it expands if you click on it

fintail

Is the Elf/Hornet with the "3480 BB" plate on some kind of special registration, or just a "cherished number"?

In Glasgow, a way up driving away from the camera is an XJ6, by the date a Series I. Is that a Wartburg 353 I see behind the two tone car?

ab348

I see a gen 1 Capri following a Fiat 124 sedan (soon to be a Lada) in Glasgow. That appears to be a Triumph sedan at the front of the line but I don't know them well enough to ID. Looks like a green Routemaster bus going away from the camera.

ab348

Today's shot from the Ellis Wiley collection of the Toronto Archives is a January 1965 shot of Weston Road and Lawrence Avenue in Weston, Ont (now all gone) with some interesting vehicles. Bonus points if you can ID the vehicle(s) in the showroom.

kyfdx

Newcastle? What about the beer!?

magnette

Spent a lot of time I can't remember thanks to Newcastle Brown Ale, in my youth...

magnette

The last car on the right in Weston Road Toronto is a Studebaker with four headlights so I think that is a 62 or later Lark
Ahead of it is a 64 Rambler - Classic I think
The red and white car is a Riley - either a 4/68 or 4/72 but I can't tell which from this photo.
Just obscured by it is what appears to be a white panel van and to me it looks like either an Austin A50 van - more likely - or possibly a Hillman / Commer van

texases

Rear of car on far left looks a lot like my dad's '63 Dodge Polara, paint color and dog dish hubcaps included!

magnette

ab348 said:

I see a gen 1 Capri following a Fiat 124 sedan (soon to be a Lada) in Glasgow. That appears to be a Triumph sedan at the front of the line but I don't know them well enough to ID. Looks like a green Routemaster bus going away from the camera.

Hi ab - the Fiat 124 is indeed too early to be a Lada and the Capri Mk I is following but the blue car nearest to camera is a Hillman Super Minx ( a Mk 4 as it has the later straight edged roof ) and that is why it looks like a Triumph

Although the rear of the bus looks like a Routemaster those were only seen in London (2700 of them from 1955 to1967 ) and a small fleet of about 50 in Newcastle (oddly enough). No other city bought them

The other London bus you will always see in old pictures - which looks like a Routemaster - is an AEC RT - London had 4500 of those and another 1700 Leyland RT's too (actually RTL's...)

Glasgow had a big fleet of Leyland Titans this is one of those - about 500 of them were given consecutive number plates in 1956- 60 - and an even larger fleet of Leyland Atlanteans which were rear engined - there are two in the distance. Glasgow also had the largest fleet in the world of Albion buses (made locally) although most of those were gone by the early 70's

The overhead wires are because Glasgow had a very large Tram system from before WW1 through to 1962 and they retained part of the wiring for their Trolleybuses they had a few hundred of those too.

In addition after London, and Budapest, Glasgow had the third underground railway built in the world and amazingly it is still in operation with the same stations - no additional ones have ever been added since before WW1. It has Orange trains and they go round a single loop of 23 stations in either direction - locals call it the Clockwork Orange...

ab348

After dropping several balls on my Glasgow guesses I'm glad I didn't try to guess the ID of the character in the red costume on the sidewalk... :laughing:

magnette

fintail said:

Is the Elf/Hornet with the "3480 BB" plate on some kind of special registration, or just a "cherished number"?

In Glasgow, a way up driving away from the camera is an XJ6, by the date a Series I. Is that a Wartburg 353 I see behind the two tone car?

Hi Fin

Yes it is a Wartburg 353 - it was sold here as the Wartburg Knight. and I think the blue & white car may be an Austin A50/55

The Elf (It isn't a Hornet although only the badges are different) has a normal Newcastle registration - 3480 BB which was issued in 1963

Newcastle got three codes allocated to it in 1903 - 1932 - the first was BB, from Dec 03 to Dec 25, then TN from 1925 to 29 and VK from 29 to 1933 They used those codes in the format BB 1 through to VK 9999 etc

When they issued three letter plates from 1933, in the case of Newcastle, they came along sequentially as ABB 1-999 from July 33 and then ATN 1-999 from Dec33 etc. That sequence got to YVK 999 in June 56. (We didn't get Z as a serial letter then as it meant Ireland at the time so they got to YVK not ZVK)

From 53 councils could reverse the plates as numbers were running out nationally and so from 1956 to 63 Newcastle started the reversed sequences using the three letter codes so YVK 999 was followed by 1 ABB and that system went through to 999 YVK although there were problems as the number of vehicles registered was continuing to grow and they were obliged to also reissue reversed two letter plates - ie 1-9999 BB (followed by 1-9999TN. and VK).

In practice the last few of the three letter reversed codes (1-999WBB to 1-999WVK and 1-999XBB were optionally offered instead of the 1 - 9999 BB ones - this was because people didn't want the "old fashioned" two letter codes especially on motorbikes or on cars with square rear plates ( we only had two line rear bike plates and 1234 BB would look like 123 4BB or something so it was confusing - the format was that you only had maximum two line plates and didn't split the digits).

Newcastle didn't quite run out of available numbers - they only issued reversed BB - they never used the others so for example 1234TN was not issued, nor VK. And in this particular case they also only issued 1001 BB - 9999 BB not using 1-1000 BB as these would have clashed with Trade Plates - There was a system similar your dealer plates where each authority issued garages with plates for testing cars etc and those had always been in reverse format.

From 1903 to 1953 they were the only reversed plates and when the rules allowed reversed plates they just avoided issuing duplicate numbers and making the trade plates red or red and white so no one would get mixed up.

Finally everybody switched to year specific A suffix plates and Newcastle started those in December 1963 with ABB 1 A in December 63...

omarman

ab348 said:

Not according to him. He was telling tales of going to Spanish City in Newcastle as a youngster.

He may have moved around as a youth but in the past he's talked about going to a primary school in Glasgow where he was born. Not sure where he lives now but I think he announced that his 2019 tour would be the last. End of an era.

magnette

That was too confusing - sorry

1903-25 BB 1 to BB 9999
1925-29 TN 1 to TN 9999
1929-33 VK 1 to VK 9999
1933-56 ABB 1 to YVK 999
1956- 63 1 ABB to 999 VYK
(Apr/Dec63 1 WBB to 999XBB
(and 1001 to 9999 BB Simultaneously

reserved and not used 1 -999 XTN
1 -999 XVK
1 -999 YBB
1-999 YTN
1-999 YVK
Dec 1963 onwards ABB 1A etc

fintail

I suspect nearly all of the cars are gone, too.

At lower right I see the nose of a 60 Pontiac peeking in. In the showroom looks like a low slung "channeled" Model A roadster hot rod kind of thing.

ab348 said:

Today's shot from the Ellis Wiley collection of the Toronto Archives is a January 1965 shot of Weston Road and Lawrence Avenue in Weston, Ont (now all gone) with some interesting vehicles. Bonus points if you can ID the vehicle(s) in the showroom.

fintail

Interesting about the plates, I assumed the dual letter plate was either a very old plate still in use, or something special - I assumed everything was 3 letters - 3 numbers by that time. Did you memorize all of that data, or is there a reference? It's much more difficult than here, where in my state anyway plates have been issued in sequence for the past 40+ years, so one can make guesses as to when a car was registered by the plate, if it wears its original plate. This was messed up for awhile when the state, I suspect seeking money and a make work project, required cars with old non-YOM plates to have them replaced at a set interval (I think every 9 or 12 years or similar. This was later abandoned. In the old days, each county had its own letter prefix, but this wouldn'twork today due to insane population growth in some areas.

magnette said:

Hi Fin

Yes it is a Wartburg 353 - it was sold here as the Wartburg Knight. and I think the blue & white car may be an Austin A50/55

The Elf (It isn't a Hornet although only the badges are different) has a normal Newcastle registration - 3480 BB which was issued in 1963

magnette

I still managed to make a further mistake in my explanation. Although Newcastle was allocating numbers from the last few days December 1963, starting with ABB 1 A, in practice it seems none of them were actually issued as it was not possible to process the paperwork until after the New Year so the first Newcastle issue with a date suffix was actually ABB 1 B, on 2nd January 1964...

There is a very detailed book about the situation up to the end of the 90's but the changeover from 1963 with suffix numbers is much more scrappy so there are less accurate facts...

I can remember a fair number of the codes but mostly those relating to Wales or cars I've owned etc, but the bulk of the real detail is too arcane to keep in my brain I think -

texases

I was gonna say something, but...

magnette

Sorry for derailing this into a forum about arcane British number plates -perhaps we should open a separate forum for those instead.

texases

No, fine with me, I've always wondered how that system worked.

magnette

ab348 said:

After dropping several balls on my Glasgow guesses I'm glad I didn't try to guess the ID of the character in the red costume on the sidewalk... :laughing:

You were right on the cars and I went off onto a tangent about public transport - sorry.

I think the red coat person is trying to remember where they left their 1960 Ford

magnette

I found this picture from Tucson Arizona about 1960 - should magnify with click

andys120

I'll pick off a favorite of mine, a white step down Hudson ca. early/ mid-50s. It's partialy hidden behindwhat appears to be a late 50's Opel Rekord 9a rare sight on these shores). They're
middle right. Newest car may be the '59 or 60 Chevy parked right of center towards store.
A '59 Chevy is pointing toward camera in mid pic. I think that's a '59 Dodge in lower right corner and there's a two tone version facing away just left of center.

omarman

'60 Ford wagon parked in front of the drug store. Picking up or delivery?

fintail

Funny, when I first zoomed in on the pic, it panned to the left, and I missed the 60 Ford. The rear window is open, cool.

Parked at the curb close to the camera, facing left, is an F series Vauxhall Victor, and behind it, an early Hillman Minx - two Brits in a row. At somewhat far left a few rows into the lot I see a 58+ Beetle, and diagonal to the left of that, possibly another Victor. Also parked at lower left, a 56-57 Rambler.

fintail

Do you know of any online resources for all that?

In some ways it reminds me of the system in WA state when counties had their own alpha prefixes - the letters used generally had no relationship to the county name, so you had to "know" it.

magnette said:

I still managed to make a further mistake in my explanation. Although Newcastle was allocating numbers from the last few days December 1963, starting with ABB 1 A, in practice it seems none of them were actually issued as it was not possible to process the paperwork until after the New Year so the first Newcastle issue with a date suffix was actually ABB 1 B, on 2nd January 1964...

There is a very detailed book about the situation up to the end of the 90's but the changeover from 1963 with suffix numbers is much more scrappy so there are less accurate facts...

I can remember a fair number of the codes but mostly those relating to Wales or cars I've owned etc, but the bulk of the real detail is too arcane to keep in my brain I think -

imidazol97

magnette said:

Sorry for derailing this into a forum about arcane British number plates -perhaps we should open a separate forum for those instead.

I am enjoying trying to understand the logic. It's a different system from our state.

ab348

There isn't much consistency anywhere. The UK system ties a plate number to a vehicle for life, which has advantages. Here in Nova Scotia we have plate-to-owner, so a plate number is assigned and then stays with the owner until it is turned in or expires. I have had numerous plate numbers assigned to me when I had multiple vehicles but only have one right now which dates back to my 2002 Intrigue and has been on several other subsequent cars. Prior to that we had plate-to-vehicle but it didn't seem to be very permanent, as you could request a new plate number for whatever reason.

tmart

magnette said:

I found this picture from Tucson Arizona about 1960 - should magnify with click

Several 57 Fords, plus a 52/53 Ford.

andys120

fintail said:

Funny, when I first zoomed in on the pic, it panned to the left, and I missed the 60 Ford. The rear window is open, cool.

Parked at the curb close to the camera, facing left, is an F series Vauxhall Victor, and behind it, an early Hillman Minx - two Brits in a row. At somewhat far left a few rows into the lot I see a 58+ Beetle, and diagonal to the left of that, possibly another Victor. Also parked at lower left, a 56-57 Rambler.

I don't think Vauxhalls were ever officially exported to the US. I'm inclined to think it's an Opel (Rekord?).

I see a 1960 Chevy in front of the Kresge store.

Lostwrench3

Also in the photo is a Rambler which is a '50, '51, or '52. One would have to check the paperwork.
However, if it is a hardtop, it is a '51 or '52.

fintail

Not big sellers, but the F series Victor was indeed sold here for a short period (and in Canada as the Envoy)

andys120 said:

I don't think Vauxhalls were ever officially exported to the US. I'm inclined to think it's an Opel (Rekord?).

I see a 1960 Chevy in front of the Kresge store.

ab348

This is the last of my Toronto Archives pics for a while (board members collectively shout "Hooray!") :laughing: taken at the same time and place as yesterday's pic, January 1965 in Weston, On., just to the left of the other view. Sadly, still no 1960 Fords.

stickguy

Lot of ramblers up in Canada.

Looks like a toilet seat valiant in front of the beetle. And is that a ‘57 Ford in the driveway across the steeet?

andys120

1964 Ford convert in foreground, its coupe equivalent parked in front of red building. Another Ford in driveway on right, (black 1957).

magnette

ab348 said:

This is the last of my Toronto Archives pics for a while (board members collectively shout "Hooray!") :laughing: taken at the same time and place as yesterday's pic, January 1965 in Weston, On., just to the left of the other view. Sadly, still no 1960 Fords.


Hi Ab - I've got a question for you about driving in Canada - although from a long while before your time....

I appreciate you are in Nova Scotia, but I gather that Newfoundland & Labrador didn't join the Dominion until 1949 and prior to that it was a British Colony or under some different Dominion status.

I have read that prior to N&L joining Canada they were driving on the left like the UK, and only changed over to the right in 1947 presumably in preparation - although the date could be a coincidence.

Is there any history about this - did N&L have RHD cars in the early days like here or was the market for cars so small in what was then a more remote area mean they just managed with LHD as they would have been more plentiful - it probably matters more as to whether Henry Ford supplied RHD Model T's to the area as they would have been predominant. I just thought some old cars in museums or something might relfect that - though I appreciate it's a different Province so not exactly just down the road!

magnette

fintail said:

Funny, when I first zoomed in on the pic, it panned to the left, and I missed the 60 Ford. The rear window is open, cool.

Parked at the curb close to the camera, facing left, is an F series Vauxhall Victor, and behind it, an early Hillman Minx - two Brits in a row. At somewhat far left a few rows into the lot I see a 58+ Beetle, and diagonal to the left of that, possibly another Victor. Also parked at lower left, a 56-57 Rambler.

I missed the Hillman Minx when I posted this - I thought it was a Mopar - one of those rounded ones from the early 50's... I can also now see your other Victor near the VW -can't be many shots in the USA where VW's are outnumbered by Victors but Arizona probably has a little less rust than Luton England

There is a Pontiac Wagon from abut 1950/1 -one of those with a remnant of wood on the sides - its just above the tail of the prominent 59 Chevy and is facing a Studebaker Champion or similar - one of those turret top ones

magnette

Can also see a few 40's cars I think - grey Chevrolet coupe two rows above the Dodge which in turn is diagonally left of 59 Chev
A late 40s black Mopar two door immediately above that Dodge and above the Rambler beyond the Victor boot is a white Ford from about 1945-8 era

What does surprise me is given the area I would have expected a large number of Trucks and Jeeps but apart from a few vans not many at all.

andys120

The explosion of P/u trucks and Jeeps is largely a post-1970s phenomenon outside of rural areas. Tucson is not out in the boonies, back then it probably had a population around a quarter million.

ab348

@magnette, it is not something I know much about in truth. I do know that the other provinces here on the east coast switch to driving on the right in the first half of the 1920s. I would presume that cars sold here prior to that time would have been RHD but I cannot say I have ever seen any.

You are correct that Newfoundland held out on the switchover until 1947. To try to answer your question I looked online for old newspapers and found some St. John's Evening Telegram editions from the 1920s. The products advertised there were mostly ones we were familiar with in the rest of Canada. There was some British influence in things like woolens but not as much as I expected. There were few references to automobiles but I did see illustrations of Chryslers, Graham trucks and Model T cars, and they all appeared to have LHD. Whether that was what they actually were I cannot be certain as they were not photographs and so may have been stock illustrations from the manufacturer.

magnette

ab348 said:

@magnette, it is not something I know much about in truth. I do know that the other provinces here on the east coast switch to driving on the right in the first half of the 1930s. I would presume that cars sold here prior to that time would have been RHD but I cannot say I have ever seen any.

You are correct that Newfoundland held out on the switchover until 1947. To try to answer your question I looked online for old newspapers and found some St. John's Evening Telegram editions from the 1920s. The products advertised there were mostly ones we were familiar with in the rest of Canada. There was some British influence in things like woolens but not as much as I expected. There were few references to automobiles but I did see illustrations of Chryslers, Graham trucks and Model T cars, and they all appeared to have LHD. Whether that was what they actually were I cannot be certain as they were not photographs and so may have been stock illustrations from the manufacturer.

Hi Ab
Thanks for this -it is interesting how different areas dealt with these changes but I suspect it was a more limited scale of disruption compared with, say, when Sweden switched over in 1967.
I have seen references to British Columbia switching after WW1 so early 20's as well but it hadn't really occurred to me that a part of what is now Canada would have been driving on our side of the road as late as 1947.

In Britain Buick Cars were sold as McLaughlin Buick from the Canadian plant to benefit from "Empire Preference" tariff allowances and in fact 1936 Edward VIII had one although as he abdicated in ten months that hardly acts as a good precedent...

Apart from the far flung corners of the Commonwealth there are a surprising number of countries who did drive on our side of the road although many of those were due to the Japanese occupying them in the thirties ( Thailand does, and until 1947 or so so did large areas of China). That also goes for Indonesia which still does - though that may be because of the benefits of being close to Malaya...

Given India does too a sizeable minority of the world population lives in countries where the rule of the road is our side though not with universal access to cars - nor strict observation of road rules from what I've seen in films.

fintail

I am more amazed that apparently thousands were sold here - not sure I have ever seen one, at least not on the road or a show. I have seen several pics of ones long off the road.

@ab348 's latest pic appears to have 3 64 Fords - the foreground and background cars mentioned, and directly to the left of the convertible in the foreground looks like another.

magnette said:

I missed the Hillman Minx when I posted this - I thought it was a Mopar - one of those rounded ones from the early 50's... I can also now see your other Victor near the VW -can't be many shots in the USA where VW's are outnumbered by Victors but Arizona probably has a little less rust than Luton England

magnette

andys120 said:

The explosion of P/u trucks and Jeeps is largely a post-1970s phenomenon outside of rural areas. Tucson is not out in the boonies, back then it probably had a population around a quarter million.

I think I imagined Tucson as a town with a saloon and gunslingers - it is redolent of the Wild West - but I've been to the north of Arizona around the Grand Canyon etc.

It is always surprising when I see films with people driving out into the desert, - or the mountains in other states - using sedans over dirt roads. This is even more surprising if the cars are say from the 70's with large bodies and automatic gears on roads I would consider not suitable for them.

I saw a picture of downtown Anchorage Alaska - in the 60's - a while back and although there are loads of trucks etc they had sedans too. I think I imagined more like Antarctica!

The thing is, as I've said before, you have lots of everywhere there

texases

In the '60s that's about all there was, sedans and trucks, and trucks were for work.

ab348

Not a Toronto Archives pic but another vintage Toronto picture today. Yorkdale Shopping Center opened in 1964 and was one of the first large enclosed malls in Canada. Looking at other pictures of it from around the time of opening, it seems very similar in design to our first enclosed mall here that opened at that time too, only larger. This is a nicely composed shot from its first few days. It expands very well: