Mystery car pix

fezo

Great to pop in and see people talking Saab Sonnets. Back in the 70s I wanted one of those so bad. I've since recovered but still wouldn't mind if one appeared in my driveway.

berri

When I was in the Army many years ago, one of my fellow lieutenants had a Saab Sonnet. It was a nice looking car for the time, but otherwise I liked another lieutenant's 240Z better overall. I don't think the Saab could have kept up straightline or in the curves. I guess the Sonnet was kind of like the good looking blonde airhead ... wouldn't kick her out of bed, but marriage - don't think so!

hudsonthedog

Actually I don't know where those 22/31 Torqueflite and 24/36 stick numbers came from, as the EPA didn't start doing those city/highway estimates until 1978. At least, on their website 1978 is the oldest data that's available for viewing.

I've had the same questions for years when I would see claims of gas mileage pre-dating 1978. But it seems that 1978 was the first time the EPA published numbers. I have a 1978 gas mileage guide (along with 1979, 1980, 1981, etc), but I have never seen a 1977 version of such a guide.

hudsonthedog

If I recall correctly AMC also offered a special high-mpg version of the Hornet Hatchback with a four-speed overdrive and the larger (258ci) six at about the same time. In '77 or '78 AMC added a four-cylinder version of the Gremlin powered by a 2-liter VW Group four, using the same block as the Porsche 924. Pontiac also stuck the Iron Duke four and a bad Borg-Warner T50 five-speed into the Phoenix ca. 1977.

I remember the Feather Duster but can't seem to locate a good, restorable one today. Far less desireable are the Gremlin 2 Litre and economy Hornet.

Can you provide a source on the four-cylinder Phoenix? This is the first I've heard of this combination although Chevrolet had a four-cylinder Chevy II/Nova from 1962-1970, but it wasn't the Iron Duke...and the X-body didn't have a four-cylinder (as I recall) until it went front-drive in 1980.

andre1969

I'm not sure when they started putting the Iron Duke in the Phoenix, but the EPA lists is in their 1978 guide ( http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/epadata/78guide.txt ). It was EPA-rated at 21/28 with an automatic, and they don't show an entry for a stick shift. Maybe the 4-cyl/stick was only 1977 and earlier?

In comparison, with the 231 V-6/manual it was rated 16/28, and with the 231/automatic it was rated 18/26.

For 1979, the 4-cyl doesn't show up, so maybe they figured out that putting an engine that small into a car that big wasn't a very good idea. :sick:

FWIW, the other divisions didn't follow Pontiac's foray into 4-cyl territory with these cars. The Nova stuck it out with the 250-6 as its standard engine, while the Skylark and Omega used Buick 231 V-6es. Interestingly, by '78-79, the Nova was the only one offering a 350. The rest topped out at a 305.

texases

"I remember the Feather Duster but can't seem to locate a good, restorable one today."

One of the articles talks about how they were popular for engine swaps, so that may be one reason you don't see them today. They also probably didn't make all that many of them.

stephen987

They may not have published the guide in booklet form, but I'm certain the numbers were on the window sticker beginning with 1975.

hudsonthedog

They may not have published the guide in booklet form, but I'm certain the numbers were on the window sticker beginning with 1975.

Oh, I'm not arguing that the numbers weren't CALCULATED before 1978 (I've read these numbers in too many places)...I'm just saying that they started publishing them in 1978, which is why so many of us (at one time) believed that these numbers didn't go back before that date.

hudsonthedog

I'm not sure when they started putting the Iron Duke in the Phoenix, but the EPA lists is in their 1978 guide ( http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/epadata/78guide.txt ). It was EPA-rated at 21/28 with an automatic, and they don't show an entry for a stick shift. Maybe the 4-cyl/stick was only 1977 and earlier?

There have been a number of instances where numbers were published but the combinations were never produced. I'm not saying that this is the case, but I've never read anything that would lead me to believe that GM actually sold any four-cylinder versions of this car.

texases

Just to confuse things, the latest Autmobile magazine has an article on the Mulroney sticker, and says the EPA mpgs showed up on it in 1977. I seem to remember a separate sticker before then for the mpgs.

andre1969

This doesn't actually prove anything, but I have a Consumer Guide used car book that covers 1977-86. It lists the 2.5 Iron duke as being one of the Phoenix's engines, from '77-79. However, it also lists the Pontiac 301 being available, which I think is an error. I think the 301 was used mainly in the Catalinas, Bonnevilles, Grand Prixes, and the 1977 LeMans. I believe the Phoenix used a Chevy 305 as its V-8. Actually, I'm surprised the Olds 260 didn't end up in there, too.

andys120

lemko

That's a Pontiac Fiero - a later model. Perhaps a 1987 or 1988 model.

stephen987

More specifically a Fiero GT V6. The cheaper, 4-cylinder SE kept the original notchback roofline.

andys120

I knew some Fiero Cultist would chime to point out that it's the GT/V6 model. :P

andys120

stickguy

Mercury. Montego?

I'm sure it's a '68 though!

stephen987

Nice--but I take umbrage at being called a "Fiero cultist." I am, however, a survivor of the Eighties.

It seems that the Fiero recipe went something like this: Take one popular two-seater (Fiat X1/9), make it bigger for American tastes, and bake until half-done. Car will flambe itself later, randomly.

The GT was a vast improvement, with the V6 and a better suspension, but a couple years too late.

stephen987

Might be a Montego. Might instead be a Comet--the '68-69 Comet was just a lower trim line on the Montego, not a separate model, IIRC.

andys120

Yep, it's a 1968 Mercury Montego Wagon.

andys120

wgrafer

Since no one has yet ventured an opinion, I'll give it a guess -- from the grill shape, it looks like an Allard, but I have no idea of what model -- looks early 50's. :confuse:

andys120

That's not a bad guess but sorry, it's not an Allard, in fact it's not even British and FWIW it's not a 50s car..

Going..going....

lokki

Very Elegant! For no paricular reason other than the lines and what looks like a red badge, I'm going to guess that it's one of the last of the (true) Bugatti's.

imidazol97

That car has a sad look to the grill and the headlight location. There's something depressing in most of the lines and shapes for me. I'm interested in what era and what culture it was designed. The one thing that is good is the wheel design.

stephen987

I'm thinking it's German.

fintail

It's VERY German looking, so it must be German or some early postwar thing made from looted equipment.

stephen987

I was thinking it had some Auto Union-ish styling elements. But no four rings on the nose. . .

andys120

You're getting warm, Fintail, it is early Postwar German and did use outside components but AFAIK they were bought, not stolen. Sorry Stephen, it's not related to Auto Union.

magnette

In truth it is a Veritas...

stever

Haaa, nice word play.

magnette

Not very often we get to use Latin in these forums - although I guess that's why they are called forums in the first place - but my one year of Latin back in the late sixties has been entirely forgotten now - like the Welsh I had to learn at school for about five years and haven't retained - apart from reading the odd bilingual road sign...

jlbl

About the same here, just changing Welsh for Basque!

Regards,
Jose

stever

Did I tell you before, Jose, that Boise is home to one of the largest populations of Basque people outside of your area? Even our mayor is Basque. His mystery ride is the bicycle he commutes on.

andys120

Verily, it is indeed a 1949 Veritas Comet C90, one of a few street models made by German based Veritas, an early postwar maker of Sports-Racing and Formula cars. Most of their cars were based on components from the prewar BMW 328.

jlbl

Hi Steve, yes I remember we were talking some time ago about Basque-Shepherd settlements in Idaho. Boise must be a nice place, is it? I understand Boise means "wooden" from the French "bois". As you surely knows, Basque region extends itself on both sides of the western edge of the Spain/France border.

Regards,
Jose

stever

Yep, nice spot - high desert and when the Europeans stumbled upon it, they were amazed to find any trees (but they are just along the river). Maybe it's better over there btw, but the Basque around here are lousy cooks. But we digress. :shades:

jlbl

Ha, someone apparently kept the good Basque cooks over here and set the shepherds free to go for more lambs — though they never come back with these :P !!!

stephen987

jlbl

Looks like the Pegaso presented in Torino in 1953 under the name of Berlinetta Touring / 1953. Pegaso was a sport car made in Spain, but this body work was made by the Italian firm Touring, with aluminium tubular subestructure (Sperleggera system).

PEGASO BERLINETTA TOURING BIPOSTO / 1953

(More pics in the link above.)

Regards,
Jose

stephen987

Good spotting, Jose. It's a 1956 Pegaso Z-103.

stephen987

The next will follow in a couple of hours. . .

andys120

stephen987

It's just a guess based on styling cues, but: Hyundai Equus?

lemko

Hyundai Eqquus (sp?). The silly hood ornament is the giveaway. Funny, that quarter panel, rear door, C-pillar and quarter window reminds me of recent Buicks.

fintail

Azera on steroids? :P

stephen987

This was the first pic:



Now here's the second:

texases

Maserati Bora?

fintail

It's a 70s Maserati...I can't remember if that's it or not. But somehow I can smell the leaking FI and hear the rust growing :shades:

stephen987

can you also hear the hydraulics leaking?

Not a Maserati Bora, no. . .

Perhaps the third pic will help: