Mystery car pix

Mr_Shiftright

I think it's one of those Reliant 3-wheel thingies.

ateixeira

Looks like someone stapled an umbrella to a Robin they chopped with a sawzall in their garage. With their eyes closed.

magnette

The blue car is based on a Triumph Herald / Vitesse, but was made by a British firm which might remind you of someone more used to driving Aston Martins...
And the Cortina is actually a Mk1.

magnette

Yes it is a Reliant - not a Reliant Robin though - it's a Regal 3/25 from about 1962-3, and although they were generally sold with a saloon body complete with reverse angle back window, as in the Ford Anglia 105E, they were briefly available as a convertible to - this is the only one I've ever seen.
ny ideas on the pale blue car behind and to the left - (clue its not British)...

andys120

grahampeters

G'day

Renault 4 with sunshine roof. Renault's answer to Citroen 2CV. They were still common in France ten years ago,

Claimed, inaccurately to be the first hatchback.

It also had different wheelbase on each side as it had a torsion bar suspension, later also used on the Renault 16

Cheers

Graham

andys120

Claimed, inaccurately to be the first hatchback.

Yup, it's a 1961 Renault 4L. This (below) would have been the first modern hatchback
(note one-piece tailgate)>

Mr_Shiftright

That's not a hatchback, that's just a different kind of trunk opening !!

Here's my opinion of the first production hatchback:

mac24

The blue car is based on a Triumph Herald / Vitesse, but was made by a British firm which might remind you of someone more used to driving Aston Martins...

Bond Equipe GT4, possibly a GT4S, but the rear side window is obscured so I can't tell.

mac24

Here's my opinion of the first production hatchback:

Beautiful lines, a real head turner when it first appeared.
I've owned several, both the MGB and the MGBGT. Not really a sports car though, more of a tourer; too heavy for the engine power.

andys120

That's not a hatchback, that's just a different kind of trunk opening !!

Not sure how you figure that. If the rear glass and trunk lid come up in one piece it's a hatchback IMO, must be a [non-permissible content removed] working around the upright spare tho. The Traction Avant hatch preceded the MG-BGT by at least a decade (1954).

Moreover, the E-type coupe (1961) preceded the B-GT ('65) by four years>

mac24

ny ideas on the pale blue car behind and to the left - (clue its not British)...

Is it a Peugot of some kind?

What's nagging at me is the car that can just be seen through the Regal windshield.
That tail light looks familiar but I can't quite place it. Any help?

Mr_Shiftright

I'm not comfortable with that----it's not in my book, nor in most historians' books either. A "hatchback" is not merely a big trunk lid or a tailgate, or you could call old funeral hearses from the 1930s "hatchbacks".

A hatchback is a vertically opening tail gate that swings up to reveal a flat floor loading area and fold-down rear seats. Neither the Renault nor the E-Type qualify under the usual definition, because they don't quite "get" the modern idiom--we define "hatchbacks" today in a certain workable way, and the MGB-GT got it completely right. So for that reason, I give the box of chocolates to the MGB. Nobody uses the Renault or the E-Type system.

You know me, I don't much care for "mushy" definitions, because that renders the words meaningless....to use my old hackneyed expression "if we say everything is beautiful, then in fact nothing can be beautiful".

andys120

I'm OK with that definition. I was unaware that the MG-BGT had folding rear seats, I'm sure they were pretty marginal seats which brings up the question of which was the first hatchback able to seat at least four adults.

Mr_Shiftright

That'd be tough to define because what is an "adult" and what do you mean by "seat four adults" --- we could possibly cram 2 medium size people in the back, or should we say that they must be 5' 8 or better and have adequate leg and head room? You see how sticky it gets to award a car this designation.

mac24

I was unaware that the MG-BGT had folding rear seats...........

Yes, the seat back folded forward to increase the flat rear storage area.
Although as you say they were marginal, it did significantly improve the usefulness of the vehicle when compared to a strictly two seater.

andys120

Heck I'm not looking for a Philadelphia Lawyer definition. We all know that the back seats of an MG are not meant for 2 normal-sized adults (they could barely hold one). We should be able to figure out with our vast knowledge of cars which was (unofficially) the first hatchback designed to carry four adults.

Right now I'm drawing a mental blank.

andys120

to hold four adults?

Was it this car?>

magnette

Yes, that is a Bond Equipe GT4/4S - any ideas re the pale blue saloon directly to the rear of the subject Reliant ?

magnette

Ahh, the Autobianchi Primula.

magnette

Sorry I hadn't noticed you had replied to this - here's a picture of the mystery light, and also a better picture of the other car (French, but not Peugeot)
">

You could also have a go at the others in this shot - quite an eclectic mix...

andys120

Yup, that's a 1964 Autobianchi Primula, a car that was not very successful commercially but was the template for the modern European car being the first transverse FWD Hatchback. Interestingly it was also available in non-hatchback form.

Yes, the rears do fold.

As for your photo- on the right facing the Equipe is a Bristol, I think a 401, I can't quite place the blue car next to it but the next one's a '69 Mustang. At the end of the row are a silver Avanti and a Rover 2000TC or 3500 (can't make out the black car next to the 'stang.)

magnette

For some reason the forum has gone into a mode I cannot see properly - it's in some clunky code that doesn't have margins or anything, so I imagine it will be off again for me like for the last four weeks...And just to please the bean-counters at Edmunds, the adverts are all invisible too - below this box under a row of blue boxes marked with ? is a blank square, the top corner of which says Advertisment.

The blue car in my latest photo, which is the one you highlighted the tail light of in my earlier Reliant picture, is not another Bond Equipe, unlike the car which was next to the Reliant in my earlier post. Instead it is a Tornado Talisman.

The cars opposite are (right to left) a Bristol 401, a Warwick or a Peerless (they shared the same body), a Mustang, a Gilbern Invader III (from my homeland - Wales), an Avanti (I think an Avanti II rather than a Studebaker one), and finally the end car is a Rover P6, probably a 3500 judging by the grille and the bit of chrome visible above it.

The saloon next to this Tornado is clearer now - and it's a Panhard PL17.

EDIT
Now as I post this it has flipped back into normal mode with adverts and the huge margins - there is certainly something flaky about this site...

stever

I leave for an hour and the whole place falls apart. :P

This has been a recurring glitch, but at least it was a short one tonight.

grahampeters

G'day

It is a pre war (possibly 1938 or 1939) Citroen Traction Avant, the most extraordinary car of its era. It included folding rear seats in a 33/33/33 configuration permitting none, one, two or three seats to be folded.

For some entertainment, trawl through the net and imagine what effect these cars had on the motoring world when first introduced in 1935.

I still see one (I think post war production) being driven daily, here in Melbourne. It is parked on the street and is clearly loved, but not mollycoddled.

Cheers

Graham

andys120

It included folding rear seats in a 33/33/33 configuration permitting none, one, two or three seats to be folded.

That can't be, if it were then Mr. Shiftright would be wrong about the first hatchback.

Actually, the picture is of a postwar (1954) TA but I've read that the Commerciale version of the TA had a rear liftgate back in the mid-30s, I don't know if it had the folding seats. Either way they were out way before Shifty's little MG-BGT.

andys120

Mr_Shiftright

I think we were talking about the modern hatchback and how it works, not a hatchback with a spare tire and trunk compartment blocking the loading area. As we've often said, the French copy nobody and nobody copies the French.

Even 40s American cars explored variations of "hatchback"---again, close but no cigar. Do you know this one?

urnews

1957 Hudson?

andys120

That's a Kaiser or Frazer Traveler or Vagabond which does have some of the characteristics of the modern hatchback (folding seats) but the two-piece rear gate isn't part of any modern hatch, nor is RWD. IIRC the Vagabond was the cheapie version like the pictured one. The Traveler had wood strips lining the rear deck/hatch>



I think there were Frazer versons of both.

Your right about nobody copying the French except for the FWD part which leads us back to the 1964 Primula with it's Transverse FWD/ single gate/ folding rear layout. Eventually everybody copied that one, it was the first modern hatchback.

andys120

1957 Hudson?

Yup, it's a 1957 Hudson Hornet Custom, a sad end for a once distinguished line of cars.

Mr_Shiftright

Not really, I don't think the Primula rear window raised up in 1964, just the lower back lid? And the Austin MINI had FWD/transverse layout years before that. Again, we are looking at all kinds of transition fossils here, and each has its merits.

andys120

There were hatchback and trunkback versions of the Primula

This pic from a German website is labelled 1961>



From the same website dated 1965>



Bigger version.

Yes, rears do fold.

lemko

The 1955-57 Hudsons were derisively known as the "Hash."

magnette

Losing the adverts isn't so bad, although I also lose the chance to win a $500 gas card, which is worth a lot less fuel here than over there - petrol is about £1.32 /£1.35 per litre at the moment...

magnette

I carried four passengers in my old MGB GT once, although admittedly the two in the back were on such intimate terms by the time they got home that they needed to get a room - actually we got them in by folding the back seat down so they lay on the boot floor - the other two shared the front seat next to me. Also got thre passengers in an MGB roadster, but the back area was so small only the shortest guy would fit, lying on his back - again the other two sat on the front seat, and we all ignored the seat belt laws (well, they did).

magnette

The Christie had front wheel drive and a transverse engine in about 1905, but was no Mini !

Mr_Shiftright

The first one '61 isn't a true hatch, as it's got the trunk valance barrier still built in.

The second one is '65, same year as the MGB-GT, so it doesn't precede it.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah, FWD is ancient automotive history. Many very early cars were mid-engined as well.

andys120

qbrozen

The Manx buggy or something like that.

ateixeira

Myers Manx IIRC.

andys120

Yup, IMCDB had these tagged as Custom Dune Buggy but actually there as close to the standard Meyers Manx trim as can be. I left a comment to that effect.

I drove a Duner of different origin and liked it so much I considered buying it.

andys120

tmart

Mid 60's Plymouth, per the hood, and a GTX per the front side fender.

urnews

1966 Plymouth GTX?

ateixeira

They still sell Dune Buggys in Brazil, in fact my dad owns one.

They're all re-bodied Bugs, basically, but his is labeled a "Magnata". The most common one is a "Fyber 2000".

Here's the cool part - if you go to the Northeast of Brazil, in Fortaleza, you can rent them daily. The sand dunes there are the perfect playground for them. There's a place called the "Funil", or funnel, where you can drive in fast, and basically get sideways on the banks.

An AWESOME experience.

Being surrounded by beautiful beaches and women in small bathing suits doesn't hurt, either.

grahampeters

G'day

You can still buy a Meyers Manx.

http://www.meyersmanx.com/

I quite fancy the idea. The kit is USD 4495.

Cheers

Graham

texases

"I quite fancy the idea. The kit is USD 4495. "

What's that, $3000 Aussies?

My how things change!

lostwrench1

1967 Belvedere GTX - 440 cubes.