sells more than twice as many Rio wagons as Subaru sells Imprezas, at 2/3 the price! FWD of course. But it would be very nice to see Subaru put standard side curtain airbags in the Impreza, the Legacy has them at a price that is only about $4K more...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Back to that word again. For some reason BMW comes to my mind when you say that. The 3 series specifically. It's near-luxury, not quite a full-blown luxury car.
Now ask yourself, do you even have to wonder if it has ABS? Side curtains? Of course not. You don't even have to ask. It's premium and everyone knows it.
And that standard is constatly changing. What was S500/750i option 5 years ago is 3-series option today, what was 3-series option then, is standard today. Subaru is visibly playing catch up and while they are "in pair" with their powertrains (accepting that 4-cylinder turbo is really a premium engine), their interior/safety content always lags behind a few years. It looks they are always mentally in what was premium 5 years ago, not now.
Interesting point about safety. Iacocca claims it doesn't sell and there is some evidence for it in "non-premium" cars (most Corolla or Camrys buyers will buy leather before adding stability control or side impact airbags), but it is an absolute given premium crowd. Sometimes even beyond reason, but it doesn't matter - it is what people expect in this segment. Guys in FHI seem to be having trouble with getting that.
It seems to me that certain automakers do well in certain areas.
Mazda rings a bell, they have done well with audio equipment. I remember they had CD players standard on all their cars a long time ago, one of the first to do so. Then they were early with MP3, in fact one model was named after that.
You could say the same about Volvo with safety features.
Among the non-luxury brands, Subaru was early with ABS, but now they're late with traction/stability control. They're not leading like they used to.
I think a great deal of opinion on the subject depends on what you consider the definition of premium. As was pointed out to me last year, when Subaru first started making mention of the word, premium does not mean luxury, or even almost luxury. It just means a good solid car that is perceived as being at the top of its game.
In my mind, premium means a car for which buyers will pay extra, because the competition is consider cheaper (as well as less expensive). People will pay for the name because it's proven. In fact, the Mazda3 vs '05 Civic might be the best example. The Mazda3 offers a very competitive package, which is just as good if not better than the Civic. But Civics are sold by the boatload and, for most shoppers, is still the defacto benchmark for the class.
It takes more than fancy content. Juice's example of the base 3 Series makes that point well. You have to beat the competition at their own game. You have to show the mass market that your cars are consistently at the top of the heap. And you have to keep them there for several years so that it sinks into the public mindset. If you want that reputation to have a halo effect on the whole brand, you have to win that kind of war in several segments, not just one or two classes.
Subaru has always been a niche player. They compete in the fringes. Nothing wrong with that. It's a smart way to get started. But competing on the fringe will never show that you can beat the competition head on. You can make money fighting lesser known boxers (no pun intended), but you'll never earn the crowd's adoration until you step into the ring with a champ.
So, if Subaru wants to go premium, that move is going to ride on the shoulders of vehicles like the Legacy sedan, Impreza sedan, Forester, and Tribeca. Specialty cars like the WRX are frosting on the cake, but Subaru's cake is still half-baked...
I see a premium vehicle as being well equipped (safety items, audio options, high quality materials) - not necessarily feature laden (ie heated steering wheels, exotic woods, et al) with a good dose of performance. It also has to have some snob appeal in order to differentiate it from the masses.
I put the following in the premium class:
Audi 4 and 6 BMW 3 and 5 series MB C and E class Acura Saab Volvo VW - on the cusp of getting in there Lexus IS and GS Infinit G and M Cadillac CTS and STS.
IMHO, the luxury segment tends to be more about whiz bang gizmos and coddling instead of a spirited drive and high quality materials. That's where the 7, S, A8, LS play.
Most Subaru models right now are what I consider mass market. Other than AWD and the boxer engine (for Bob's sake), they really aren't any different than a Camry, Accord, Altima, Malibu, et al. There's nothing there that says premuim. The Tribeca does though.
Subaru could do it if it would abondon the entry level models - those with cloth interiors and improve the quality of the rest of the materials and the other features noted above. It has to move itself from being a purveyor of mass market/value vehicles to somewhat aspirational vehicles. Done right, I could see the next generation Impreza as a premium vehicle. In fact, it's happening right now with the Legacy - Subaru broke that magic $30K barrier. The SE now packs some of those premium features as the base model. Pretty soon, the real base will become vapor ware as customers are herded into the SE's.
But it won't be without pain. Subaru will alienate it's current customer base and it will have to convert a new base as VW is doing now.
are Subarus really "premium" cars, or just slightly different regular cars that happen to have standard AWD, pushing the price up a couple grand?
I haven't driven a Tribeca, but I have driven the rest of the current line-up (WRX 2.0, have not driven the 2.5 yet) and I think they are slightly different regular cars that happen to have standard AWD. And that boxer: you have to like the boxer growl, because if you don't just about every other manufacturer makes cars with quieter engines.
Me, I like the boxer growl! :-)
Is that one of the premium features?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
that knowbody else in Japan does, is offer cars with real "character." Their cars do have personality. The boxer growl is part of that character (and charm). It's without a doubt the most European of all the Asian brands, and I mean that as a compliment.
I understand where you're coming from. I thought the same thing above the move when it first hit the news. Read here and you'll see it took some talking (mostly Bob) to convince me otherwise.
Someone offered up the definition "of great value" for the word premium and listed Honda and Toyota as example of premium brands. VW is also one frequently mentioned when this discussion crops up. Lexus, BMW, and MB are not seriously considered.
Your list is more or less the entry-level offerings for luxury car brands. The segment is most often referred to as "near-luxury". I'm being told that Subaru is not trying to become a near-luxury brand. Hence they use the term premium.
It is image war out there. Alsmost everybody, but Chevy, Ford, Kia, and Hyundai wants to call themselves "premium". It sounds nice and has a potential of adding extra half percent of market share. There is some inflation of the wording out there, Subaru doesn't want to get behind and be "regular", "normal".
I initially thought they meant "going premium" by "moving upmarket" and that kind of sentiment was reported by press. If so, Subaru is definitely not there. Actually, the worlkd is running away, if anything. Look at latest gadgets/solutions in German pack and you get the idea (not that all of them are so great, just that buyer wants to be dazzled by possibilities). Too many points missing in the content area, both as standard and as options. Solid and nice - yes, worth more than Camry/Accord - yes, upmarket - no. AWD and boxer are worth paying a bit extra, new exterior didn't hurt either. Last year was a great splash with new Legacy/Outback. GT line was a great hit, at least with the press. But the follow up is a step back: 06 Legacy/Outback GT/XT model lineup is a disaster, i.e. it is wrong on both sides of the equation: on one hand no "fast-no luxury" trim, on the other - incomplete luxury. Lafayette plant probably costs them too much to run and it looks like they got scared or simply run out of money. As usual in situations like this, cuts were made all in wrong places. In my opinion, they are lost and bouncing from one wall to another.
Love mt first Subaru "Tribeca". Just wondering why Subaru has yet to include a telescoping steering wheel in any of their cars. Does it really cost that much to manufacture? Thats really the only thing that I miss having from my Audi A4 I traded in for the Tribeca.
I have to agree with Bob about character. I replayed a perfectly good Toyota Borme (I mean Camry with 17K miles) with my forester and couldn't be happier. Why? Well the "Big Red Car" (my 3yo daughter named it) is funky. It is well equipped has plenty of front seat room and suffient back seat room.....and plenty of storage. It handles great, and does not look like a truck. And some how, the subie handles better than anything else in its class ...almost like it has a lower center of gravity. When I open the hood, I could swear that I do not see any heavy metal near the top of the compartment.
I have done light offroad driving, and am hoping for a snowy winter.
If I were to purchase my vehicle before the end of my lease is up would there be any additional fees and charges besides the original purchase option fee? If there is a substantial charge I have a second question. I just leased an impreza for 48 months, but the finance manager messed up the paperwork and the leasing co. wouldn't accept as is and now they want me to come in and resign the paperwork. Would I be in my rights to request a shorter lease term at this point in time, say 24 or 36 mo's instead, or am I still bound by the original contract even though the finance co. rejected the paperwork as is?
Mazda3 is an interesting example, because while it did go "premium" compared to its predecessor, it has not sold as well as the Protoge did. So Mazda had to sacrifice some sales to move it upscale, even slightly.
You could say the same thing about the Jetta V. Prices are up, but volume is down. It's pretty hard to bump prices and volume, which is Subaru's goal.
Subaru will alienate it's current customer base
That's the risk they are taking, and part of the reason for the incentives.
dino - even Hyundai wants to be premium. Kia will be what they call the sporty entry, and Hyundai will be their premium brand. Really.
See? Premium is everywhere! Even Chevy Equinox is pitted against Lexus RX300! :confuse:
That's why we should not really listen corporate blah blah, rather see what they do. Unfortunately SoA does not show clear strategy. Fortunately - they are not the only ones being lost :shades:
should just stick to "rally cars and all-weather vehicles for the masses" as their slogan, and focus on the vehicles for a while. Even now, the most common Subarus you see on the roads are the base Outback and the WRX. These are the two vehicles in the last 10 years that have kept Subaru alive in the States. Make 'em better, don't try to push that $25K price point too much, work on increasing sales for a few years.
Oh yeah, and take some time to develop good styling themes, then stick to them for a while. No more of this changing the face every two years because you made it so ugly last time that everyone in the press commented and sales suffered.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
SUV alternatives like the Outback and Forester have been successful.
Performance models have been successful.
Luxurious models have not been very successful, but not complete failures, either.
Mainstream FWD models had been a complete disaster.
So applying these very basic lessons learned, Subaru should continue to push niche models the Outback and Forester, perhaps create a bigger model along those lines (raised Tribeca that isn't luxo-loaded?).
Then sprinkle in performance models, a GT here and an STI there, to keep things interesting. When you win over the enthusiasts, your influence exceeds just those that buy the cars.
I think the performance angle is more likely to work than the premium angle.
If Subaru had a $25-27K Tribeca without all the whoopdedoos (and with 5 seats at that price, with a 7-seater around $28K base sticker), I think it would sell much better than the slow-selling Tribeca has so far. I mean, these are supposed to be the salad days for the Tribeca, it is a brand new model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Let's see what direction they head in. This was just v1.0.
Timing of the release was bad - Subaru's least efficient model comes out when gas hits $3 per. Meanwhile, everyone is offering heavy discounts (employee pricing) while Subaru decides to move in the other direction with prices.
With Toyota as a partner, they could move the Tribeca in the hybrid direction (even better, with Li-ion batteries from FHI), and then make an Outback-like spin off at a lower price. The hybrid could be priced slightly higher than today's Tribeca and still sell well. That way they would not have to "retreat" to a lower price level.
Make the Forester a few inches taller add an ich or two to back seat hip room and add 3 inches to rear seat leg room and I 'd think there'd be nothing out there that could touch it. We may be getting one but competition is going to get fierce with the new RAV and CRV coming, not to mention all the others...why be a niche when you could be king! When is the next overhaul for the F due?
It just got a face lift, and a boost in power for both engines. Two more model years for the next generation to arrive, so look for that in MY08.
The Impreza should arrive first, probably in MY07. The B5 TPH concept at Tokyo is supposed to hint at the next Impreza, if so the wheelbase will likely stretch and it will grow. That likely means the Forester would also. The B5 has the same wheelbase as the current Legacy/Outback. For the Forester that would mean a whopping 5+" stretch in wheelbase.
I just hope it doesn't grow too big and lose its sporty character. Plus it might overlap with the Tribeca 5 seater if it did.
Very true. I suppose the thing to do is look at what Subaru is doing, rather than what they are saying. That will give us a better idea of what they mean by "premium".
So far, they seem to be offering more content at a higher price. But I think we'll have to wait and see what they do with the Impreza and Forester before we get the full effect.
"Mainstream FWD models had been a complete disaster."
I think they need to evaluate what made them less popular in the mainstream and work on that. Gotta get back on the horse and all that... Once they have a good mainstream car, they can infuse it with Subaru character.
Does anybody remember those preposterous Outback XT/Legacy GT ads in magazines with "Germany in mourning"? It was a straight shot at BMW with even some Porsche references (better 0-60 than Boxter, if I recall). News for you, Subaru: as much as I may love you, Germany is doing pretty well, at least the guys in Munich and Ingolstadt. They probably didn't even notice. Hate to say it, but it looks like that - for Camry buyers, Legacy is too expensive, for BMW crowd the content is just laughable.
I think they had a legitimate chance of making a crack at the second-tier market, like Acura TSX, Volvo S40/V50, Saab 9-3, previous model Audi A4 (before 1.8T/3.0 release). Legacy GT blows those cars away in both handling AND acceleration and would costs similar when "stuff" content is equalized. Then make a quick '06 release (or "correction if you will) with all "premium" content missing in 05 available in "affordable" packaging or trims, keeping in mind that not everybody wants all that "stuff" (so keep "uloaded" GT/XT trim available). And you have a winner. The press did even some grounwork for them by adding Legacy to some of those comparos (and it scored at least decent).
What did they do instead? Totally opposite! The best they could do is they gave us nice-looking B-spec that is nothing like B-spec overseas and still has even no HID or telescopic steering column (or does it?). I don't want to repeat myself with comlaining about lesser trims, because we all know it already. It just lame, man. Really good potential wasted and all I can see is SoA crawling back under the stone they came from. Unfortunately for all of us...
Subaru's biggest problem is there complete lack of advertising. I live in New England, and if they barely advertise here where weather gets bad, I highly doubt they advertise anywhere.
Toyota needs to teach them what a marketing department does.
The Legacy starts at $21k. Not too bad. The Camry starts at $18,4. Not to much of a difference.
Only problem is 90% of Americans don't know what a Subaru is.
I don't think marketing is Subaru's biggest hurdle, but I will say this. Their ads make it seem like they have a bad case of short-man's disease. They are constantly comparing themselves to the competition. IMHO, it makes them look like an also ran company.
I'm in the same boat. If you buy the car before the lease term ends you owe the final payoff plus any payments not yet made, plus any outstanding personal property tax (if applicable). I assume you're considering this because you're ready to trade it in.
As to the lease change - yes - why not get what you want? Nothing seems finished anyway, so revise the lease the way you want it.
Well put. While you need benchmarks, obsessive comparisons in ads will never serve you well. You lose either way: you compare to somebody out of your league, you look stupid, you compare to somebody in your own, you look insecure. Just don't do that, concentrate on your own virtues, then you may OCCASIONALLY mention those "other guys", not necessarily easily identifiable.
I would like to see subaru come to market with cars offering better gas milage. I think they should consider offering fwd cars in addition to awd cars.My only subaru experience was an old 1981 DL wagon with a 1.8l engine. I reeally liked that car.I think awd is a liabilty when lower weight and better fuel economy are a priority. I still like subarus, but I would probably look to a cheaper car that gets better gas mileage. My old wagon was well under 100 hp but it was fun to drive. I do admit to almost tearing the gearbox up to whip it around town.
The thing for the legacy GT and outback XT is/was marketed poorly. The target market should have been two fold: 1) People who find there WRX is no longer big enough (small market, and will find the larger Subie anyway), and 2) men with families that are approaching there middle age crisis. In that group, they need to seel performance to the husband, and utility to the wife.
In my case, I *wanted* a base LGT wagon. If the sales person had sold it correctly to my wife, I would have one. I lost when he mentioned how well it handles at 125 MPH. (Wife said, what do you need a car that handles at 125...Guys understand the need!).
Marketing the safety is dangerous....But an interesting campagn for the Outback XT would be one where a family of 4 is zooming down the road, maybe outacellerating the boxter (not calling it out by name though), then the family goes off road to a camp site, and pulls out all of the content from the cargo area....
While I find this model interesting, they did make it mostly a cosmetic package, unlike the JDM version. Drivetrains is pure Legacy GT, while Japan gets a different engine (H6) and a different tranny (STI 6 speed). So it's missing some key hardware.
That's surprising because Subaru has done well with special performance models. Spec B should have been more than fancy rims and red leather. Hopefully this just means we'll get a true STI later. A halo performance car like that would do wonders for Subaru's image.
The problem is it costs an arm and a leg to certify these low volume cars. Spec B is only getting about 500 units, right? Oddly enough fitzmall has 4 of them in stock, they must be considered one of the top dealers.
manamal: you must like the Dodge ads, then. Like the one for the Magnum (with the Lotus in it).
I'm not sure that would work for Subaru customers, it's too "neanderthal male" IMO.
Effective, yes, but you gotta target your demographic.
The whole street racing thing is a slippery slope. Remember the WRX commercial with the two young guys turning down "Radar Love" on the stereo? That got a *lot* of slack from the Subaru community.
I think they can show the utility aspects, maybe show how easy it is to load a Kayak on that low roof, but they have to be careful about showing off performance. Maybe show it pulling away with a small camper trailer attached to a hitch, climbing a steep hill.
Ditto! The biggest fans of the brand talk about how the mileage is the best among AWD vehicles, which may be so, but that still doesn't make it GOOD. It is decent in my book, but needs to be better.
However, I would say the same of all the cars out there. I think it is a shame that the best we can do without hybrid tech or a diesel is the 32/41 that a Corolla gets. We should be able to do better than that.
The Impreza is a 3000-pound compact car. Yes, it has AWD. The best they can do is 22/29? The Accord, weighing 200 pounds MORE and having virtually the same power pulls 26/34. (both with a manual) Which gives you a decent chance of achieving 30 mpg in most routine driving in the Accord, while the best you could hope for routinely in the Impreza is maybe 26. In the smaller lighter car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You can't give that up. Without AWD Subaru is just another anonymous also-ran Japanese company, like Mitsubishi or Suzuki.
Honda and Toyota seem to have what I've heard called "EPA magic" that manages to obtain phenomenal numbers in the lab, though not necessarily as good on the street. Note that the Malibu V6 got better real-world numbers than the 4 cylinder Accord or Camry in CR tests. So much for the 26/34 EPA ratings. I think CR gets around 24-25.
Forester, Legacy, and Outback are low 20s. 22 rings a bell. That's close enough, real-world.
And here's the thing - even if Subaru did go with FWD, they still wouldn't have the magic formula that Toyota and Honda have, so an Impreza might get +2mpg or 24/31, let's say. The folks like you that want peak mileage would still get an Accord, they would not capture more sales.
So they would sell their soul, their identity, and still not gain the sales you might expect they would. It's suicide.
And look at the Forester - despite the '05 model getting 23/30 (22/30 with automatic), easily best-in-class, it's not the sales leader by a long shot. CR-V, RAV4, Escape, Liberty, and Vue all do a lot more volume. Mileage improvements did not increase Forester sales. In '98 mileage was 21/27. By '05 they had improved it to 23/30, but sales were flat.
They could use a smaller engine, maybe the 156hp 2.0l used in Japan, in the Impreza, but it still would not come close to the 30/40 EPA numbers the Civic automatic gets, no way no how. So why bother? The customers who care a lot about that will still buy the Civic. Or a hybrid. Or a diesel.
Dodge specifically targets males, especially with the Hemi ads. They have a "size does matter" type of feel to the whole ad campaign.
That doesn't mesh with Subaru's image at all. For starters, for all model lines except the Outback (*), most owners are female. You don't want to alienate them.
"Honda and Toyota seem to have what I've heard called "EPA magic" that manages to obtain phenomenal numbers in the lab, though not necessarily as good on the street. Note that the Malibu V6 got better real-world numbers than the 4 cylinder Accord or Camry in CR tests. So much for the 26/34 EPA ratings. I think CR gets around 24-25."
Everyone knows the press beats up their cars, and always get lower numbers than the public would.
FWIW, I have a friend with an '04 Accord 4-cyl that is getting 27.x mpg on his running average, and this is a family that just let the A/C run all the time, they never turn it off, even when they want heat. They just crank the heat up. And that car is running around with a full complement of five, including two kids, more than half the time. On the highway trips they have taken, they have done better than 35 mpg.
EPA ratings kinda suck, I agree, but I think they make a fair basis of comparison from one gas (IOW, non-hybrid) car to another gas car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My point was Honda and Toyota some how manage to get the best EPA numbers, and that the advantage they have, while real, is exaggerated in these laboraroty tests.
Do you think Subaru could get a FWD Legacy up to 26/34 in EPA tests? I don't. 25/32 maybe. So people shopping EPA mileage numbers (the primary reference consumers will use) will still buy the Honda because it would continue to carry the edge.
Subaru will not win over those mileage-bean-counting customers.
I hear you, but is this in some way a bit of a cop-out on Subaru's part? Either (1) you actually believe in magic (I don't think you do), or (2) you think Toyota and Honda are bribing the EPA to get better results (I don't think you believe this either).
If it is neither of those, then it is clearly something Toyota and Honda are doing when they set up their cars, to emphasize fuel economy, that Subaru chooses not to do, either because of issues of performance or of cost.
My question is, if performance, then why (in the non-turbo models). The NA cars are not racers, not any of them. If cost, well, then that is the drawback of being Subaru, I guess, and what stuff is Toyota and Honda putting in their cars that is so expensive that Subaru could not meet them head-on? Subes and T/H both have about the same number of ratios in their transmissions, both use coil-on-plug ignition and variable valve timing, neither use direct injection in their mainstream models yet, etc etc.
I'm not sure it is anything more or less than Subaru not thinking fuel economy is that important, and so not trying very hard to boost it. And you are right, the Forester's increase in fuel economy over the last few years has not netted it any more sales, but you never know, it may have prevented a slide that might have occurred without that boost. Forester is the smallest in its class, after all. People are gravitating towards the larger models like CRV.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
CR gets 21 mpg with the Forester, as well as 21 for the CR-V. But the Forester's EPA rating is a few points higher than the CR-V. So I guess Subaru is another one of those magic companies.
I think Subaru still has plenty of things they could do before they expand beyond the use of AWD as their "claim to fame". But I don't think every vehicle needs to have AWD standard for them to retain their AWD image.
I mean, Honda's image has been tied very tightly to VTEC for the past 15 years, but it wasn't until recently that all Honda models had some kind of VTEC. The first generation CR-V was a huge success, but it lacked VTEC. Toyota has been earning lots of credit for being a green company, thanks to the Prius. But they still sell Landcruisers, 4Runners, and other gas guzzlers.
I think they could do an AWD van and a few other vehicles before branching out. But they will have to branch out if they ever expect to grow beyond their current niche ranking. And that will probably require 2WD.
That's an interesting idea. Subaru could very well best Porches and BMWs on the track with a monster STi. That would give them plenty of street cred and publicity in the mags.
My only concern is that the market would still view it as another toy for boy-racers. Lots of respect, but not much prestige in the Impreza line.
Comments
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Now ask yourself, do you even have to wonder if it has ABS? Side curtains? Of course not. You don't even have to ask. It's premium and everyone knows it.
-juice
Interesting point about safety. Iacocca claims it doesn't sell and there is some evidence for it in "non-premium" cars (most Corolla or Camrys buyers will buy leather before adding stability control or side impact airbags), but it is an absolute given premium crowd. Sometimes even beyond reason, but it doesn't matter - it is what people expect in this segment. Guys in FHI seem to be having trouble with getting that.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Mazda rings a bell, they have done well with audio equipment. I remember they had CD players standard on all their cars a long time ago, one of the first to do so. Then they were early with MP3, in fact one model was named after that.
You could say the same about Volvo with safety features.
Among the non-luxury brands, Subaru was early with ABS, but now they're late with traction/stability control. They're not leading like they used to.
-juice
In my mind, premium means a car for which buyers will pay extra, because the competition is consider cheaper (as well as less expensive). People will pay for the name because it's proven. In fact, the Mazda3 vs '05 Civic might be the best example. The Mazda3 offers a very competitive package, which is just as good if not better than the Civic. But Civics are sold by the boatload and, for most shoppers, is still the defacto benchmark for the class.
It takes more than fancy content. Juice's example of the base 3 Series makes that point well. You have to beat the competition at their own game. You have to show the mass market that your cars are consistently at the top of the heap. And you have to keep them there for several years so that it sinks into the public mindset. If you want that reputation to have a halo effect on the whole brand, you have to win that kind of war in several segments, not just one or two classes.
Subaru has always been a niche player. They compete in the fringes. Nothing wrong with that. It's a smart way to get started. But competing on the fringe will never show that you can beat the competition head on. You can make money fighting lesser known boxers (no pun intended), but you'll never earn the crowd's adoration until you step into the ring with a champ.
So, if Subaru wants to go premium, that move is going to ride on the shoulders of vehicles like the Legacy sedan, Impreza sedan, Forester, and Tribeca. Specialty cars like the WRX are frosting on the cake, but Subaru's cake is still half-baked...
(Sorry, couldn't resist!)
I see a premium vehicle as being well equipped (safety items, audio options, high quality materials) - not necessarily feature laden (ie heated steering wheels, exotic woods, et al) with a good dose of performance. It also has to have some snob appeal in order to differentiate it from the masses.
I put the following in the premium class:
Audi 4 and 6
BMW 3 and 5 series
MB C and E class
Acura
Saab
Volvo
VW - on the cusp of getting in there
Lexus IS and GS
Infinit G and M
Cadillac CTS and STS.
IMHO, the luxury segment tends to be more about whiz bang gizmos and coddling instead of a spirited drive and high quality materials. That's where the 7, S, A8, LS play.
Most Subaru models right now are what I consider mass market. Other than AWD and the boxer engine (for Bob's sake), they really aren't any different than a Camry, Accord, Altima, Malibu, et al. There's nothing there that says premuim. The Tribeca does though.
Subaru could do it if it would abondon the entry level models - those with cloth interiors and improve the quality of the rest of the materials and the other features noted above. It has to move itself from being a purveyor of mass market/value vehicles to somewhat aspirational vehicles. Done right, I could see the next generation Impreza as a premium vehicle. In fact, it's happening right now with the Legacy - Subaru broke that magic $30K barrier. The SE now packs some of those premium features as the base model. Pretty soon, the real base will become vapor ware as customers are herded into the SE's.
But it won't be without pain. Subaru will alienate it's current customer base and it will have to convert a new base as VW is doing now.
I haven't driven a Tribeca, but I have driven the rest of the current line-up (WRX 2.0, have not driven the 2.5 yet) and I think they are slightly different regular cars that happen to have standard AWD. And that boxer: you have to like the boxer growl, because if you don't just about every other manufacturer makes cars with quieter engines.
Me, I like the boxer growl! :-)
Is that one of the premium features?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bob
varmint, "Subaru as a premium brand?" #45, 26 Jun 2003 3:32 pm
Someone offered up the definition "of great value" for the word premium and listed Honda and Toyota as example of premium brands. VW is also one frequently mentioned when this discussion crops up. Lexus, BMW, and MB are not seriously considered.
Your list is more or less the entry-level offerings for luxury car brands. The segment is most often referred to as "near-luxury". I'm being told that Subaru is not trying to become a near-luxury brand. Hence they use the term premium.
I initially thought they meant "going premium" by "moving upmarket" and that kind of sentiment was reported by press. If so, Subaru is definitely not there. Actually, the worlkd is running away, if anything. Look at latest gadgets/solutions in German pack and you get the idea (not that all of them are so great, just that buyer wants to be dazzled by possibilities). Too many points missing in the content area, both as standard and as options. Solid and nice - yes, worth more than Camry/Accord - yes, upmarket - no. AWD and boxer are worth paying a bit extra, new exterior didn't hurt either. Last year was a great splash with new Legacy/Outback. GT line was a great hit, at least with the press. But the follow up is a step back: 06 Legacy/Outback GT/XT model lineup is a disaster, i.e. it is wrong on both sides of the equation: on one hand no "fast-no luxury" trim, on the other - incomplete luxury. Lafayette plant probably costs them too much to run and it looks like they got scared or simply run out of money. As usual in situations like this, cuts were made all in wrong places. In my opinion, they are lost and bouncing from one wall to another.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I have done light offroad driving, and am hoping for a snowy winter.
You could say the same thing about the Jetta V. Prices are up, but volume is down. It's pretty hard to bump prices and volume, which is Subaru's goal.
Subaru will alienate it's current customer base
That's the risk they are taking, and part of the reason for the incentives.
dino - even Hyundai wants to be premium. Kia will be what they call the sporty entry, and Hyundai will be their premium brand. Really.
-juice
"a premium sedan" (paraphrasing.. but they used that word)..
regards,
kyfdx
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That's why we should not really listen corporate blah blah, rather see what they do. Unfortunately SoA does not show clear strategy. Fortunately - they are not the only ones being lost :shades:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Though the official line is that premium is recommend, not required, on the H6s. Only the turbos require premium.
-juice
Oh yeah, and take some time to develop good styling themes, then stick to them for a while. No more of this changing the face every two years because you made it so ugly last time that everyone in the press commented and sales suffered.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Performance models have been successful.
Luxurious models have not been very successful, but not complete failures, either.
Mainstream FWD models had been a complete disaster.
So applying these very basic lessons learned, Subaru should continue to push niche models the Outback and Forester, perhaps create a bigger model along those lines (raised Tribeca that isn't luxo-loaded?).
Then sprinkle in performance models, a GT here and an STI there, to keep things interesting. When you win over the enthusiasts, your influence exceeds just those that buy the cars.
I think the performance angle is more likely to work than the premium angle.
-juice
If Subaru had a $25-27K Tribeca without all the whoopdedoos (and with 5 seats at that price, with a 7-seater around $28K base sticker), I think it would sell much better than the slow-selling Tribeca has so far. I mean, these are supposed to be the salad days for the Tribeca, it is a brand new model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Timing of the release was bad - Subaru's least efficient model comes out when gas hits $3 per. Meanwhile, everyone is offering heavy discounts (employee pricing) while Subaru decides to move in the other direction with prices.
With Toyota as a partner, they could move the Tribeca in the hybrid direction (even better, with Li-ion batteries from FHI), and then make an Outback-like spin off at a lower price. The hybrid could be priced slightly higher than today's Tribeca and still sell well. That way they would not have to "retreat" to a lower price level.
-juice
The Impreza should arrive first, probably in MY07. The B5 TPH concept at Tokyo is supposed to hint at the next Impreza, if so the wheelbase will likely stretch and it will grow. That likely means the Forester would also. The B5 has the same wheelbase as the current Legacy/Outback. For the Forester that would mean a whopping 5+" stretch in wheelbase.
I just hope it doesn't grow too big and lose its sporty character. Plus it might overlap with the Tribeca 5 seater if it did.
-juice
So far, they seem to be offering more content at a higher price. But I think we'll have to wait and see what they do with the Impreza and Forester before we get the full effect.
I think they need to evaluate what made them less popular in the mainstream and work on that. Gotta get back on the horse and all that... Once they have a good mainstream car, they can infuse it with Subaru character.
I think they had a legitimate chance of making a crack at the second-tier market, like Acura TSX, Volvo S40/V50, Saab 9-3, previous model Audi A4 (before 1.8T/3.0 release). Legacy GT blows those cars away in both handling AND acceleration and would costs similar when "stuff" content is equalized. Then make a quick '06 release (or "correction if you will) with all "premium" content missing in 05 available in "affordable" packaging or trims, keeping in mind that not everybody wants all that "stuff" (so keep "uloaded" GT/XT trim available). And you have a winner. The press did even some grounwork for them by adding Legacy to some of those comparos (and it scored at least decent).
What did they do instead? Totally opposite! The best they could do is they gave us nice-looking B-spec that is nothing like B-spec overseas and still has even no HID or telescopic steering column (or does it?). I don't want to repeat myself with comlaining about lesser trims, because we all know it already. It just lame, man. Really good potential wasted and all I can see is SoA crawling back under the stone they came from. Unfortunately for all of us...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Toyota needs to teach them what a marketing department does.
The Legacy starts at $21k. Not too bad. The Camry starts at $18,4. Not to much of a difference.
Only problem is 90% of Americans don't know what a Subaru is.
As to the lease change - yes - why not get what you want? Nothing seems finished anyway, so revise the lease the way you want it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
In my case, I *wanted* a base LGT wagon. If the sales person had sold it correctly to my wife, I would have one. I lost when he mentioned how well it handles at 125 MPH. (Wife said, what do you need a car that handles at 125...Guys understand the need!).
Marketing the safety is dangerous....But an interesting campagn for the Outback XT would be one where a family of 4 is zooming down the road, maybe outacellerating the boxter (not calling it out by name though), then the family goes off road to a camp site, and pulls out all of the content from the cargo area....
Sports....functional...utility.
That's surprising because Subaru has done well with special performance models. Spec B should have been more than fancy rims and red leather. Hopefully this just means we'll get a true STI later. A halo performance car like that would do wonders for Subaru's image.
The problem is it costs an arm and a leg to certify these low volume cars. Spec B is only getting about 500 units, right? Oddly enough fitzmall has 4 of them in stock, they must be considered one of the top dealers.
manamal: you must like the Dodge ads, then. Like the one for the Magnum (with the Lotus in it).
I'm not sure that would work for Subaru customers, it's too "neanderthal male" IMO.
-juice
The whole street racing thing is a slippery slope. Remember the WRX commercial with the two young guys turning down "Radar Love" on the stereo? That got a *lot* of slack from the Subaru community.
I think they can show the utility aspects, maybe show how easy it is to load a Kayak on that low roof, but they have to be careful about showing off performance. Maybe show it pulling away with a small camper trailer attached to a hitch, climbing a steep hill.
Something like that.
-juice
Bob
However, I would say the same of all the cars out there. I think it is a shame that the best we can do without hybrid tech or a diesel is the 32/41 that a Corolla gets. We should be able to do better than that.
The Impreza is a 3000-pound compact car. Yes, it has AWD. The best they can do is 22/29? The Accord, weighing 200 pounds MORE and having virtually the same power pulls 26/34. (both with a manual) Which gives you a decent chance of achieving 30 mpg in most routine driving in the Accord, while the best you could hope for routinely in the Impreza is maybe 26. In the smaller lighter car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda and Toyota seem to have what I've heard called "EPA magic" that manages to obtain phenomenal numbers in the lab, though not necessarily as good on the street. Note that the Malibu V6 got better real-world numbers than the 4 cylinder Accord or Camry in CR tests. So much for the 26/34 EPA ratings. I think CR gets around 24-25.
Forester, Legacy, and Outback are low 20s. 22 rings a bell. That's close enough, real-world.
And here's the thing - even if Subaru did go with FWD, they still wouldn't have the magic formula that Toyota and Honda have, so an Impreza might get +2mpg or 24/31, let's say. The folks like you that want peak mileage would still get an Accord, they would not capture more sales.
So they would sell their soul, their identity, and still not gain the sales you might expect they would. It's suicide.
And look at the Forester - despite the '05 model getting 23/30 (22/30 with automatic), easily best-in-class, it's not the sales leader by a long shot. CR-V, RAV4, Escape, Liberty, and Vue all do a lot more volume. Mileage improvements did not increase Forester sales. In '98 mileage was 21/27. By '05 they had improved it to 23/30, but sales were flat.
They could use a smaller engine, maybe the 156hp 2.0l used in Japan, in the Impreza, but it still would not come close to the 30/40 EPA numbers the Civic automatic gets, no way no how. So why bother? The customers who care a lot about that will still buy the Civic. Or a hybrid. Or a diesel.
I just don't see them gaining sales that way.
-juice
Dodge specifically targets males, especially with the Hemi ads. They have a "size does matter" type of feel to the whole ad campaign.
That doesn't mesh with Subaru's image at all. For starters, for all model lines except the Outback (*), most owners are female. You don't want to alienate them.
-juice
* - I'm not sure about the Tribeca
-juice
Everyone knows the press beats up their cars, and always get lower numbers than the public would.
FWIW, I have a friend with an '04 Accord 4-cyl that is getting 27.x mpg on his running average, and this is a family that just let the A/C run all the time, they never turn it off, even when they want heat. They just crank the heat up. And that car is running around with a full complement of five, including two kids, more than half the time. On the highway trips they have taken, they have done better than 35 mpg.
EPA ratings kinda suck, I agree, but I think they make a fair basis of comparison from one gas (IOW, non-hybrid) car to another gas car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Do you think Subaru could get a FWD Legacy up to 26/34 in EPA tests? I don't. 25/32 maybe. So people shopping EPA mileage numbers (the primary reference consumers will use) will still buy the Honda because it would continue to carry the edge.
Subaru will not win over those mileage-bean-counting customers.
-juice
If it is neither of those, then it is clearly something Toyota and Honda are doing when they set up their cars, to emphasize fuel economy, that Subaru chooses not to do, either because of issues of performance or of cost.
My question is, if performance, then why (in the non-turbo models). The NA cars are not racers, not any of them. If cost, well, then that is the drawback of being Subaru, I guess, and what stuff is Toyota and Honda putting in their cars that is so expensive that Subaru could not meet them head-on? Subes and T/H both have about the same number of ratios in their transmissions, both use coil-on-plug ignition and variable valve timing, neither use direct injection in their mainstream models yet, etc etc.
I'm not sure it is anything more or less than Subaru not thinking fuel economy is that important, and so not trying very hard to boost it. And you are right, the Forester's increase in fuel economy over the last few years has not netted it any more sales, but you never know, it may have prevented a slide that might have occurred without that boost. Forester is the smallest in its class, after all. People are gravitating towards the larger models like CRV.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I mean, Honda's image has been tied very tightly to VTEC for the past 15 years, but it wasn't until recently that all Honda models had some kind of VTEC. The first generation CR-V was a huge success, but it lacked VTEC. Toyota has been earning lots of credit for being a green company, thanks to the Prius. But they still sell Landcruisers, 4Runners, and other gas guzzlers.
I think they could do an AWD van and a few other vehicles before branching out. But they will have to branch out if they ever expect to grow beyond their current niche ranking. And that will probably require 2WD.
My only concern is that the market would still view it as another toy for boy-racers. Lots of respect, but not much prestige in the Impreza line.